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Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#27251: Dec 1st 2016 at 7:06:25 AM

Aye, Russian Civil War with Reds, Blacks, Nationalists, Whites, Blues at one point, and Greens.

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#27252: Dec 2nd 2016 at 1:17:20 PM

Syrian rebels in secret talks with Moscow to end Aleppo fighting

Syrian rebels are in secret talks with Russia to end the fighting in Aleppo, according to opposition figures, a development that shows how the US could become sidelined in some of the Middle East’s most pivotal conflicts.

Four opposition members from rebel-held northern Syria told the Financial Times that Turkey has been brokering talks in Ankara with Moscow, whose military intervention on the side of President Bashar al-Assad has helped turn the five-year civil war in the regime’s favour. Russia is now backing regime efforts to recapture the rebel’s last urban stronghold in Syria’s second city of Aleppo.

“The Russians and Turks are talking without the US now. It [Washington] is completely shut out of these talks, and doesn’t even know what’s going on in Ankara,” said one opposition figure, who asked not to be identified.

US President Barack Obama’s administration has provided limited training and weaponry for the rebels but had been hesitant to give forceful backing that could turn the tide in the opposition’s favour. President-elect Donald Trump, meanwhile, has repeatedly signalled willingness to back Russian leader Vladimir Putin’s efforts to shore up the Assad regime, arguing they are working to stamp out Islamic extremists.

While the secret contacts are not the first time a rebel representative has met with the Russians, those familiar with the talks said it was the first time such a large number of opposition groups were involved.

However, the negotiations are riven by the tensions between Ankara and Moscow. Russia confirmed on Wednesday that Mr Putin spoke with Recep Tayyip Erdogan after the Turkish leader said he was seeking Mr Assad’s overthrow. A Turkish official, who asked not to be named, said talks over an Aleppo ceasefire were derailed after Mr Erdogan’s comments caused a Russian delegation to abruptly cut off talks while waiting for Mr Erdogan and Mr Putin to speak.

Though the talks have made little progress, they underline the shifting political dynamics in the Middle East. Regional actors now seem more willing to bypass Washington to seek out pacts with Russia, which is keen to develop the image of a rising power that can help broker such deals.

The fierce Russia-backed aerial assault has nearly flattened Aleppo. In the past week regime forces have made steady advances, capturing more than a third of rebel-held districts.

Yaser Alyoussef, spokesman for the Nour al-Din al-Zinki brigades, a rebel group, called the talks “consultations, not negotiations”, adding they were ongoing but had so far been unsuccessful.

“There are consultations with the Russians through Turkish mediation to calm things down and bring in essential goods into the city,” he said. “Even if just a single bag of rice could come in. At this point everything is needed, from food and fuel to medicine.”

None of those who spoke about the talks would clarify if the rebels met the Russians face-to-face or indirectly, with Turkish officials mediating.

On Thursday Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, met his Turkish counterpart Mevlut Cavusoglu in the Mediterranean town of Alanya, where he said Russia was willing to work with all parties in Syria. Asked about talks with the rebels, he told journalists: “We have never avoided contacts with any political opposition groups or with field commanders,” adding that Turkish officials often related information to them about the rebels.

For Washington, any such negotiations have ramifications beyond Syria. Emile Hokayem, fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, blamed the marginalisation of the US in the Syrian conflict on Mr Obama, who he said had shown a reluctance to entangle Washington in regional rivalries, leading Middle East leaders to turn to Moscow instead.

“The American approach to this conflict guaranteed the US less and less relevance, not just in the Syrian conflict but also the broader regional dynamics. There has been a loss of face and a loss of leverage,” he said. “The politics of the region are being transformed and this happened under Obama, whether by design or failure.”

Libyan general Khalifa Haftar, who holds an eastern portion of the war-torn country, recently went to Moscow seeking military support. Turkey, having resolved its dispute with Moscow over the downing of a Russian jet, is believed to have reached an understanding with Russia that allows Ankara to deploy its forces in parts of northern Syria. Egypt and several Gulf countries have also increased communications with Russia, Mr Hokayem said.

Charles Lister, a Syria expert at the Middle East Institute in Washington, said the first meeting between Russia, Turkey and the rebels took place on Monday in Ankara, and another was likely on Saturday.

“Russia is hedging its bets. It would prefer to make a deal with the opposition,” he said. “If Aleppo were to fall, the Syrian regime would need so many troops to hold the city that its forces would be left thin elsewhere in the country — or dependent on Iranian help, which Moscow would prefer to avoid.”

In parallel to the talks in Turkey, the US has been pursuing negotiations to restore the ceasefire and aid deliveries to Aleppo, including talks with Russia through the Geneva process and regular phone conversations between John Kerry, outgoing US secretary of state, and Mr Lavrov.

One opposition figure, when asked why he thought Russia would seek a deal with the rebels just as Mr Assad appeared to be winning, said Moscow was “essentially saying: ‘Screw you, Americans’.”

edited 2nd Dec '16 1:17:53 PM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#27253: Dec 2nd 2016 at 6:44:12 PM

Yeah, I heard about this and the various sides outright admitting that they're cutting the US out of negotiations on a BBC Newshour broadcast the other day.

I guess Russia will be trying to play the role of puppet master in the Middle East for awhile.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#27254: Dec 2nd 2016 at 8:01:18 PM

Might be better, in the end. If the US and EU are unwilling to go all the way, then they should step out of the way for someone who will.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#27255: Dec 5th 2016 at 9:40:29 AM

For the more sentimental among us, Twitter sensation Bana Alabed's Twitter account has gone dark, after around 3 months of tweeting about life under siege in East Aleppo.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
KnitTie Since: Mar, 2015
#27256: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:03:23 AM

What are the various rebel factions currently doing? Are they finally uniting due to the impending fall of Aleppo, or are they bickering as hard as ever?

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#27257: Dec 6th 2016 at 5:41:20 AM

I've heard the Kurds have created a common front with Assad against Turkey, although i could've been reading that story very wrong.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#27258: Dec 6th 2016 at 5:42:34 AM

I'm seeing very little news about anything other than Aleppo slowly crumbling.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#27259: Dec 6th 2016 at 7:55:41 AM

I wonder what kind of deal Erdogan and Putin made? Did they perhaps agree on that Assad stays in "control" if most of Syria, while Turkey establishes a protectorate in Northern Syria to keep the Lurds down while officially still supporting the rebels?

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#27260: Dec 6th 2016 at 9:17:23 AM

Frozen conflict would be in style for both of them, a peace with no settled permanent status for decades to come, and expansion of the Kurdish insurgency.

KnitTie Since: Mar, 2015
#27261: Dec 6th 2016 at 9:21:38 AM

Given that Putin has no real interest in destabilising Syria and could reap a lot of political benefits in being the party to finally end this war, I doubt that he'll go for a frozen conflict.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#27262: Dec 6th 2016 at 9:28:09 AM

With the shitshow that this year has been I'm not even going to assume that an actual deal was made.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#27263: Dec 6th 2016 at 9:32:40 AM

I suspect Vlad will go for frozen conflict because finding a solution acceptable to a sufficient amount of players will be overly difficult.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#27264: Dec 6th 2016 at 10:14:02 AM

A frozen conflict is generally stable, though, like the Transdniester or Abkhazia in Russia's case, or Cyprus in Turkey's case. No shooting, just a lot of administrative mess for everyone to handle.

KnitTie Since: Mar, 2015
#27265: Dec 6th 2016 at 10:47:54 AM

There's still a lot of goodies that Putin can get by formally ending this war at some point, up to and including sticking it to the US by doing something they couldn't.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#27266: Dec 6th 2016 at 10:59:43 AM

Arabs don't really "do" frozen conflicts. The Israel-Palestine thing has more activity in a year than the frozen conflicts have in several years, and its only stable because Israel is so overwhelmingly powerful.

Too many local factions see this as an existential thing. They will either fight to the death or they have to partition the lands. Assad doesn't have the manpower (even with Iran and friends providing troops) to take back all of Syria...it's taking all their effort just to take, nevermind hold, Aleppo. The various rebel groups are either too small or too unorganized to really amount to much more than they already are, while the Kurds have limited objectives made even more limited by the Turks.

Once Daesh is gone, its simply a matter of how the internal borders shape up.

Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#27267: Dec 6th 2016 at 12:47:26 PM

[up] Of course winning a battle with overwhelming force is one thing, pacifying a widely hostile population another. Perhaps this is what Putin and Erdogan are aiming at, partitioning Syria and give an opportunity to all those who are hostilte to Assad to leave for the North? I mean there are reports that Assad's troopts are ethnically cleaning areas they conquered by explusion.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#27269: Dec 6th 2016 at 1:32:47 PM

Franco-style!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#27270: Dec 6th 2016 at 11:18:10 PM

The Syrian Arab Army is now trying to enter the Old City of Aleppo.

(also, psst, Europeans, if you think the current refugee waves are bad, wait for the reprisals to really start)

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
KnitTie Since: Mar, 2015
#27271: Dec 6th 2016 at 11:43:38 PM

I don't think it really matters what the regime does, the country is enough of a complete wreck for the refugees to not stop in any forseeable future.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#27272: Dec 6th 2016 at 11:45:16 PM

One thing I don't get about the current state of affairs in Aleppo is how can the regime be poised for victory when there's still a big chunk of green (i.e. opposition-held territory) to the west in this map that is logically poised for cutting the red blob's encirclement of the Old City pocket. Is there something I'm missing?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#27273: Dec 6th 2016 at 11:49:12 PM

Pressure.

Russian air support will put paid to any attempts to push through. The current SAA push would never have been possible without it.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#27274: Dec 7th 2016 at 5:19:30 AM

Plus the remaining territory is mostly back country of little value to a conventional campaign, though represents a headache for pacifying the country as others noted above.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#27275: Dec 7th 2016 at 5:36:51 AM

That big chunk of green doesn't contain the military power to actually take any territory from Assad.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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