Over 10,000 dead.:<
They do that in your school, really?
Edit: Oh, nevermind. It's your choice. For an English class that's an interesting choice, indeed. Doesn't seem a very appropriate thing for an English class. It also seems as if there's little more to teach you. It's almost unbelievable that you could possibly come from an English class.
Well, as much as it's hard to believe a person as fluent as you would be taking an English class(you probably know better English than most Americans), much less doing an essay on United States culture, I should give it a serious answer instead of just bewilderment.
It's the Romanticism of Imperialism and Capitalism without basically any mention of such. Or rather, it's a mixed bag. It's not really about Imperialism, as it ignores it, but part of the American dream comes off on things that are due to Imperialism. And it can be interpreted in a very Libertarian and Socialist way, but not Conservative. Generally interpreted in a Capitalist way. Kind of vague, really.
The idea of course, is of immigrants from other places, who have faced hard times, finding a "new land". Kind of an "escape from nationality into prosperity". The idea is that, if you're a European, it's staunch and there is heritage responsibility and oppression. And coming to America, you get to let go of that and become an "American". The mentality is that the original lands are "occupied" and staunch. Monarchies and Ethnic ties. While "America", this new land, is a fresh start, and gives European citizens room to gain. No mention of the fact this is on top of the freedoms of others. America was basically treated as this uncharted, not really inhabited land. A clean slate to put a mark on. With plenty of room to build houses and raise crops more free from landlords and queens and Popes. "Freedom" from all of the things found suffocating about European life. The sort of things in European life that led to the Communist Revolution.
Of course, a lot of ethnic ties were kept, religious fervor burning, and racism created. But the general idea was to escape from European responsibility and Oppression. Poverty, Religious Persecution, particularly of the Catholic variety, and State rule. It was a fresh start, on top of the Native Americans, but a fresh start nonetheless. Partly not seen this way out of seeing the Native Americans as not having enough civilization to truly "own" the land. There was also a lot of land more stretched out between native Americans than there was between Europeans back in Europe, so there was no reason to feel like they were taking land away, considering it was a bounty they felt needed to be shared in comparison to their homeland, which was a lot more crowded. Especially if these individuals were not unkind or infringing upon Native Americans, which many weren't.
You see, if it's a place without borders and proper land ownership. There's no reason to assume one does not belong. It's a free planet after all. The problem is, that sometimes this led to people assuming that if there wasn't a written contract for the land, it wasn't really owned by native Americans who lived there. And imposed borders of their own. So while not all people violated any trust of the Native Americans, those who did ended up crushing their culture and general existence. But that's beside the point, it was seen absolutely as a bunch of free land not really inhabited. To struggling farmers in Europe without much land or ability for it, and those tired of religious wars, and Monarchy rule, America was indeed a land of opportunity.
You can see it in terms of class struggle, as the "American Dream", of the European proletariat, dreaming of a better life, instead of revolting against their rules, simply moving. And then often ironically creating a new proletariat. Generally most people interpret the American Dream in terms of Right Libertarian Free Market. However, you can clearly put a class struggle spin on the matter. The idea of "everyone being equal" and having and deserving equal opportunity, is a Leftist ideology. The American Dream is also the dream of an escape from classism. Most people see this as a Free Market idea, because it's a bit Anarchistic, including in terms of money. The idea that one's individuality shouldn't be impeded, many people believed this to be a free market.
But if you boil it all down to things, the American dream is the wish of the Proletariat to find Prosperity, and Freedom, away from the European Bourgeois.
edited 13th Jan '11 4:20:08 AM by Ukonkivi
Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
Why is it inappropriate..?^^" Because it's an english class, and this is about America? Well, we have to learn different forms of english. Among british, australian and such, american is one of them.
So it's only natural we learn about the cultures of these countries while studying the language..:)
And btw, I still have a lot to learn..^^"
EDIT: Thank you very much.. :D That's mostly what I have concluded too. Are you american? Because prejudice has taught me that americans have some misconceptions about their own dream..xD But I guess those prejudices were false..:D
And also, I still have a long way to go with my english >_< But it's a pretty important subject, since we can't really expect anyone outside Denmark to speak danish.. This is why we all learn english and german in school..:)
edited 13th Jan '11 4:18:12 AM by Arikitari
Over 10,000 dead.:<
I'm just expected it to be more about language and, well, almost none about culture.
Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
Well, in the beginning we learn only language. But now we study things like british and american culture, literature and so forth.. (The conflict in Ireland, segregation in America, the speeches of american presidents and such..)
edited 13th Jan '11 4:17:13 AM by Arikitari
Lesson's over, gotta go. Thanks a lot for the help!!
The Shadows Devour You.
Wow, I wish British foreign language classes were that comprehensive. We only learn the bare bones. :(
The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Who Am I?
I wish I had seen this thread earlier. Uko's response to your question was extremely one-sided, and not representative of Americans in general. The America Dream is generally taken to be the idea that if someone works hard enough, they can improve their lot in life: i.e. individualistic upward mobility is part of the image Americans have of themselves. Sometimes the dream is achievable, sometimes it isn't. I don't make as much in today's dollars as my father did at my age, although I live roughly the same lifestyle. Part of the way the 'dream' has changed is that once, everyone was assumed to have the same (materialistic) aspirations: a large house, two cars, kids, etc. America is a more diverse place now, and people have different life goals, so the 'dream', to the extent that people still think that way, would be about having the opportunity to fulfill their goals. As to why this is 'American', as opposed to the 'human dream', or whatever, Americans tend to think of their country as being explicitly designed to be the way it is, that is, we attribute the opportunity to work hard and fulfill our personal life goals to the structure and nature of American society. This isn't very specific, most of us just tend to assume that America is that way without pondering the details too much. Once, this was probably true, and high rates of immigration from Europe to America may be evidence in favor of that interpretation. To what extent American social institutions are still uniquely open to individualistic effort and achievement, as opposed to those in other countries, I cant say.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
bitchy queen
What do you think the basic idea of the american dream is about? Is it liberal, conservative or socialist..? (And how?)
I don't think it's any of these ideas. Whoever wants to believe in the American Dream can go for it.
Do you think these principles are present in modern american society?
No. It's an idealism that is not applicable in modern society. People who work hard every day are usually the ones who are the poorest. Meanwhile, the wealthy just get richer. There are even reports suggesting that the middle class is disappearing in America.
Do you "believe" in the american dream?
No. "Working hard" is not going to make you rich anymore. It's having connections and being part of huge corporations.
Do you often think about the american dream? Does it matter to you?
I don't think most Americans think about it constantly. I certainly don't. It doesn't matter to me one bit.
Do you think it's important in your personal life?
It's not important. I'm going to live my life as best I can regardless.
My answers might be a bit different than the average American because I don't consider myself patriotic at all. Also, your English is very good. I wish American foreign language programs would teach us like that.
edited 13th Jan '11 7:27:23 AM by snailbait
"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time
De Marquis: Don't worry,I haven't finished the project yet..:) So I'm still open for inputs..:D
It's good to see that it isn't such a one-sided case. I used to believe that "the American Dream" was purely liberal or capitalistic, and was at first confused that it actually seems pretty socialist in some ways.
May I ask a question that could seem slightly provocative? Denmark is a a very socialist country, meaning we pay high taxes. In turn we get free healthcare, schools, university, good roads, childcare, eldercare and so on.. So as I see it (possibly dure to my upbringing and socialist beliefs), this danish/scandinavian dream of the wellfare-system gives less class-problems and makes it easier to get somewhere in life. (What university you goes to have nothing to do with your parents income, for instance..) Yet most danish people, at least, associate the american dream with something more liberal.. but if the american dream is a lot about giving everyone the same good opportunities I find it to be somewhat socialist..? ((Opportunities in a society of course has lot to do with the amount of money flowing through society, so in that sense I guess America as the biggest economy has an advantage though!!)
Argh.. But I guess different americans with different beliefs will interpret the dream in different ways? I mean, King spoke of equality based on race, Obama of equality based on social class.. And some more liberal minded may speak more of the "freedom".. But concludingly I think it might work slightly better in a socialist perspective? or am I just biaised?
(I AM living in a "communist hell" as some person once claimed..)
So my question is: Why do many american people sound like they think socialism is a threat to the american dream..? Is it all about their history in the cold war (socialism=communism=soviet=fascism=no individual freedom), a way to distinguish themselves from often-more-socialist Europe or does it run deeper than that?
Thanks beforehand! :D
edited 13th Jan '11 7:48:10 AM by Arikitari
Snailbait:
Thanks a lot for taking the time! That was really nice of you :) It's interesting that you say the idea of the american dream isn't applicable to american society anymore.. I guess you're right, since it made more sense when Europe was very divided in class with the gents and everything.. And America was "the promised land of opportunity"..?
:)
I have to go again now that school is finally over, but I hope more people care to give me some input— Again, thanks a lot!
More like giant cherries
I think the fear of "socialism" preys on the idea of American Exceptionalism. We think that America is the best country on earth and is unique. Socialism is associated with Europe.
It's not rational, but it's enough to win Congress on.
Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
bitchy queen
You're welcome. :) I agree with a lot of the policies you say are in Denmark. I guess that makes me somewhat of a socialist. It would be nice for me to not have to beg financial aid in order to pay for my college education. Of course, I'm not like most Americans. Like the previous troper said, America is very nationalistic and many times the mere mention of socialism will give you an irrational negative response.
"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time
Over 10,000 dead.:<
Are you american?Arkansas, to be exact. We're getting one of our first snows all year here. And they're rare so it's lovely. I honestly envy most people up north right now. Swimming is about all our weather is good for.
edited 13th Jan '11 8:04:03 AM by Ukonkivi
Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]
Who Am I?
"But I guess different americans with different beliefs will interpret the dream in different ways?"
Bingo. I know you have probably heard this before, but it's a mistake to regard all Americans as this homogenous block of people, all of whom believe the exact same things you see in our movies. Some of us like socialism, some of us hate it, some of us are proud to be the world's foremost capitalists (if we are), some of us aren't.
Also, and I'm sure you have heard this before as well, but the conventional categories of 'liberal', conservative, socialist, etc. are crude approximations of what people in the real world believe. These categories often fail to capture real-world nuances, and this is one of those cases.
The key thing to keep in mind is that only a small fraction of Americans would reject the concept of an American Dream, but each of us would interpret that to suit our own expectations and beliefs. Which, since we're Americans, is entirely appropriate, since one central part of American culture includes the right to interpret such things as the American Dream in any way you damn well want to, and no one can tell you you're wrong.
As for welfare states, we actually have a fairly extensive one of our own. We have a pension system, medical insurance for poor people, medical insurance for elderly people, temporary paychecks for people who lose their jobs, subsidized housing, subsidized college education, and more. Sometimes I think the real difference between "American Capitalism" and "European Socialism" is that the Europeans simply organize their services in one central government, while we spread things around our national government, state governments, non-governmental agencies, etc.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
vigilantly taxonomish
Not an American, so I won't comment on the Dream, but it was always my impression that so-called "European socialism" was capitalism, and was closer to the American system than many will acknowledge.
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Well not American but generally I think the definition differs a bit on who you ask but the main theme is...
"You work hard, you get better stuff in life."
I think where the difference in interpretation mostly centres on what the end-point is. Two cars in the driveway and a nice house, wife and 2.5 kids? Live in a mansion with twenty hoes and a gold plated luxury sedan? President of the United States?
I suppose you could also have different interpretations on what constitutes as "working hard" as well. I mean, does just doing financial magic count as working hard? Does inheriting wealth but not squandering it count as working hard?
There might be different interpretations on who is allowed to participate in such a dream, such as with illegal immigration, segregation and such.
My personal take is that the American dream is that "Anyone can become top in society but at any given point in time, only one person is at the top" and make snide comments on that latter part. Poverty isn't pretty after all and watching all these Americans work hard but get nowhere in life seems to break the American dream for me.
Anyway, for the OP
- I would say it is none of the ideologies mentioned. I don't think the idea was anything to do with aligning itself with those concepts. It was about meritocracy if anything.
- These concepts sorta exist in American society but I think the meritocracy aspect has been vastly improved upon by Europe and Canada while America is still running the same things from fifty years ago thinking it's still top place for social mobility. Largely I think the American dream has been stamped upon by America's lopsided society and in the past fifteen years it has been most apparent where no matter what is happening in the economy, the top 1% salaries keep going up but everyone else is stagnate or decreasing despite increases in productivity (ie. people working harder or smarter).
- I don't think this concept means much to me but I'm not American so I guess those set of questions don't pertain to me. I will say that hard work should translate to a better life and I will add that it doesn't really hold true in our democratic societies because of the market distribution of resources. It's an efficient model that we've invented and it is self-correcting and it allows for failures (which is important for stability) but a lot of people can work hard and get nowhere in life.
edited 13th Jan '11 8:25:39 AM by breadloaf
Collector Of Fine Oddities
Well, my mostly uneducated thoughts on the matter-
•What do you think the basic idea of the American dream is about? Is it liberal, conservative or socialist..? (And how?)
Personally I don't think know enough about the subject to ascribe it's principals to a certain ideology. Personally I'd assume that the concept itself could be considered more Libertarian than anything else.
The idea of the "American Dream" is centered around a sort of meritocratic sensibility.
The idea that one may come to America, and through one's labors and achievements one may forge a better future for he/she and his/her family, in comparison to what he or she may have left behind. And for those individuals who's families have been around for multiple generations, the idea that if one sets their mind to a certain goal, if they work hard enough, they can achieve it.
•Do you think these principles are present in modern American society?
I think they are, but only to an extent. Certainly I've seen individuals go from children of immigrants who possess not but what they carry on their backs, to becoming wealthy shareholders in some large corporation, but those are few and far between. There are many social/economic factors that you can look at that can serve as stumbling blocks to an individual's attainment of their goals.
•Do you "believe" in the American dream? Do you often think about the American dream? Does it matter to you? Do you think it's important in your personal life?
I don't see a direct belief in the idea as being any influencing factor in my life. However, I think the idea's prevalence in society can be an influence on an individual's life, for better or worse.
Gunpla is amazing!
Going from my history? From what people thought when I was growing up?
People here cannot tell the difference between Socialism and Communism. And with how alot of politicians talk, people are going to keep thinking that.
Lump together that a good percent of American history is "GRR STOP COMMUNISM!", its kind of ingrained into our culture that socialism = communism = dirty rooskies = bad.
Also, I was always taught that hte American dream was basically starting from nothing, making a business or whatever, and becoming successful off the own sweat of your brow.
Kind of impossible nowadays with major corporations gobbling up any small business...
edited 13th Jan '11 9:44:09 AM by Thorn14
De Marquis: I know America have a wellfare system of it's own. It's just not as extensive as in the scandinavian model. For better or for worse :P And yeah, the categories of libertarian- socialist and conservative are slightly overrated and simplifies matters a lot. It does help in giving me a general idea of where people stand ideologically, though. :)
Bobby G: European socialism is capitalism? Well, yes, of course.. Capitalism is, as of now, the fundament of economies all throughout the world.. The social democrats (as seen most clearly in scandinavia, but also to a lesser extenct in other parts of Europe), work hard to give the people social benefits within the capitalistic system. The socialists and/or communists believe that capitalism is not the answer, and that we will never have satisfactory equality without a completely different system. ) However, there has been no functioning communist or completely socialist state so far in history.. Atleast that's how I have understood it..:)
So capitalism isn't neccesarily the opposite of (modern) socialism..^^
Breadloaf: Interesting perspective about the whole "who is allowed to participate in it".. :D Thanks a lot!
Carbon-mantis: Thanks a lot..:D And that didn't seem "uneducated" at all >__<
I'm glad so many is answering..^^ I knew tv-tropes would be a good, though unconventional, place to ask this question..:D
The Shadows Devour You.
Modern society is merely a mix between all the isms. They're just there to varying extents.
And Ari, can I just say this is the most interesting thread I've seen in a while?
The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
My family on both sides are immigrants, so I might have a different view on it than citizens born here.
- What do you think the basic idea of the american dream is about? Is it liberal, conservative or socialist..? (And how?)
I would say it's whatever you want to be.
- Do you think these principles are present in modern american society?
I think the idea of the American dream is, but it's not the same as back in the early 20th century with Ellis Island and all of that type of thing.
- Do you "believe" in the american dream?
Yeah. I believe it can happen, but you have be prepared to work hard and prepared for the differences between America and whatever counry you come from if you are an immigrant. My family is a perfect example. I have an uncle who came here, already with a college education though, and is now living an upper middle class lifestyle. However, my aunt came here in her 50s, and she has had a hard life, because no one told her what financial decisions you have to make here. Also, sometimes it is just being in the right place at the right time.
- Do you often think about the american dream? Does it matter to you?
Not really. It matters to me because it is an important part of the culture.
- Do you think it's important in your personal life?
No
I always thought people interpreted socialism => higher taxes and government handouts, which would kinda go against the American Dream. If you work hard you deserve to keep your money, you shouldn't have it taken away and redistributed to lazy, worthless people.
Might wanna read about this little thing, The Closing Of The Frontier
(/pimping). It points out the reasons why I think that the American Dream is unsustainable in an environment where constant expansion is not possible.
Short Hair
"What do you think the basic idea of the american dream is about? Is it liberal, conservative or socialist..? (And how?)"
I'd say the basic idea is freedom. Not just freedom of speech, but freedom to keep the money you earn and spend it the way you want. If you don't feel the need to buy health insurance, you can do without it and have more money for other things. If you make the choice to give up other things, you are free to start a business, run for Congress, be a celebrity. You're free to be liberal or conservative.
"Do you think these principles are present in modern american society?"
Yes and no. The principles are there, but they've been subverted by the money worshipers. Many people want health insurance but can't afford it, and if they get sick they lose everything. Do we sign everyone up for public health insurance? Do we work with the insurance companies to lower the premiums? Do we investigate why it costs too much? No, we force everyone to buy private insurance, because that's "free enterprise." Today free enterprise means "anything is okay as long as someone somewhere is making a buck." The banks want to keep their profits for themselves but blackmail the government into making up for their losses. Corporations want smaller government because they don't like regulation, that is, someone forcing them to behave responsibly, which cuts into profits. Somehow they convince large numbers of people to agree with them, when doing so hurts the common interest.
"Do you 'believe' in the american dream?"
I still believe in the dream, but I see it being bartered away for empty promises and false security.
"Do you often think about the american dream? Does it matter to you?"
It's not something I think about directly. As an American, though, I feel compelled to compete, to better myself, to make more money, to succeed in my field of expertise.
"Do you think it's important in your personal life?"
The classic dream is to accumulate enough wealth to buy a home. I have a house, my name is on the deed, but I don't really own it. I took out a mortgage. The sad fact is that a bank owns it and can take it back at any time. If I don't make my payments, or if I don't pay the property tax (which goes to schools), they will take it. So yes, it's important, in a careful-what-you-wish-for sort of way.
Under World. It rocks!
Thorn 14: Really? In Denmark I think people have a good idea as to the difference between socialism and communism. There are a lot of misconceptions concerning communism, though. And in truth, the two are closer than what most people tend to believe here..^^
Game Chainsaw: Indeed it is..:D And I'm glad you find the threat to be interesting.. I do too :D
Wuggles: Really cool to hear your perspective..:D
Melloncollie: So it's about getting what you "deserve", whether you deserve good or bad? (like if you haven't got enough money to buy inurance it's your own fault, and if you earn a lot of money you should get as much of it as possible?) And ooh, that was quite an interesting read about the frontier.. I think I can use that perspective..:D
Ralph Crown: I can only agree..:)
Okay! I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this question, but if not, feel free to correct me..^^"
I'm from Denmark and currently learning english in high school. I'm doing a project on the american dream today, and how it affects the society.
But I am kind of interested in hearing what normal american people think of it? So I have a few questions—
What do you think the basic idea of the american dream is about? Is it liberal, conservative or socialist..? (And how?)
Do you think these principles are present in modern american society?
Do you "believe" in the american dream?
Do you often think about the american dream? Does it matter to you?
Do you think it's important in your personal life?
...I'd greatly appreciate the help even if you only answer a few of the questions! Thanks..:)