Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Especially since they wouldn't know what was happening or how to bring her back.

It would be an enormous risk. She'd be extremely lucky if doing that didn't get her killed.

Do you think she'd really do that if she thought there was a risk of Homura dying?

Which is why she'd explain FIRST then provide proof.

edited 1st Apr '11 10:59:07 AM by RhymeBeat

See, that's dependant on them believing her, which Homura's experience tells them they won't.

Even if you don't believe something you won't do something that stupid when you know you could be risking someone's life.

You really think Homura trusts Sayaka? After what she's seen happen with her?

Homura's in a really shitty situation with basically no good options.

The only line of reasoning I see Sayaka following if she were handed Homura's Soul Gem directly after Mami's death is this: If it's your soul, there's no way you would just hand it to someone else, especially us; therefore, it is not your soul. After that, see previous post: I can see her trying to destroy it or throw it away, so Homura can't do magic anymore.

edited 1st Apr '11 11:13:27 AM by RedSavant

I wonder if she tried it with Madoka when Sakaya wasn't around. She doesn't trust Homura but she would she take Madoka's word for it?

She might trust Madoka's word, but Sayaka doesn't just not trust Homura. Consider... what was it, T-3, when Homura tried telling everyone about the Witch transformation? Sayaka thought she was trying to turn them against Kyubey for absolutely no reason.

Sayaka doesn't just not trust Homura, she's actively contrary to what Homura does and says and by extension what is good for her well-being. Saving Sayaka is likely the hardest task Homura has to face, and since Homura can't like her very much herself, her patience putting up with Sayaka's shit has to be rather low.

edited 1st Apr '11 11:25:39 AM by RedSavant

And honestly, what's the point of going through convoluted and risky schemes like that when you can just say 'don't make the contract, it's a bad idea' and riddle Kyuubey with bullets if they don't listen?

True... But Sakaya's fall is prime wish material for Kyubey. He almost got Madoka on this timeline like that.

Yeah, so she was planning to stop Sayaka from contracting, but as she said in episode 5, it turned out she was focusing a bit too much on Madoka to react quickly enough to save Sayaka.

. Becuase there are other Incubators to replace him and it makes her look even more untrustworthy.

^The issue is that by the first time Madoka and Sayaka saw Homura in her Magical Girl outfit, Sayaka at least wasn't going to trust her no matter what - she was already too suspicious of Homura and her motives to believe anything she said at face value. If convincing them outright has no chance of working, her only choice is to prevent the contract by any other means available to her (e.g., riddling Kyubey with bullet holes), no matter how Hero with Bad Publicity that makes her.

Look, here's how things went down:

• Mami dies, Homura says "See, I told you, bad idea."
• Madoka and Sayaka say they're not going to contract, Homura thinks 'sweet, my job is done.'
• Sayaka contracts and Homura doesn't notice what's happening in time to do anything about it.
• Kyouko shows up, Homura's reaction is to recruit her to help with the Big W and do everything she can to keep the peace.
• Sayaka decides to start snubbing Greif Seeds, so Homura and Kyouko try to stop her from falling
• Sayaka makes it clear she no intention of taking Grief Seeds, so Homura decides to kill her in order to prevent her from witching, but Kyouko stops her and Madoka almost contracting demands Homura's attention, so she's too late.

Where, in there exactly, was the opportunity to save Sayaka?

edited 1st Apr '11 11:50:06 AM by Gilphon

Except there are God knows how many Incubators I'n the area. Coukd she really stop them all?

. Good point. Mixed up the time frame I guess.

edited 1st Apr '11 11:49:19 AM by RhymeBeat

Who am I?

Are you sure you want to know?

Now I like these avatars!

Anyway, yeah, Sayaka is freaking Spanner in the Works as far as Homura's plans go, especially since she seems determined to distrust Homura, good reason or no. Also, I've always suspected that Homura has little tolerance for her shit. I know I don't, and I used to defend her quite adamantly.

Not to get into philosophy again, but that's exactly Sayaka's problem. She thought her selflessness would be ''rewarded'' — in which case she clearly didn't get the concept of selflessness.

I've been watching through the earlier episodes again. Good God, it's only now that I've come to really appreciate the extent of her character development.

—

There is no doubt that Sayaka was initially benevolent. Mami's death in episode 3 hammered in the reality that death is a constant threat to those who choose to become magical girls. Despite that, she agreed to the contract to heal Kamijou and to protect her loved ones from the menace of the witches.

True, external factors contributed to her downfall. The revelation that magical girls are essentially walking corpses made her believe that she was a creature which none could love. This may lead some viewers to believe that it was Kamijou's lack of willingness to reciprocate Sayaka's affection which caused the girl to collapse.

However, this is only the simpler half of the equation. What really pushed her over the edge was her righteousness.

As a coping mechanism, Sayaka tried to become a selfless magical girl. She wanted to become a hero who would uphold ideals, a knight devoted to a noble cause. That wish was eventually fulfilled in the most twisted way possible.

She believed in justice; that people should get what they deserve. She had admired and longed for Kamijou for so long, and given how much she had sacrificed for his sake, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that she deserved his gratitude or attention at the very least.

This belief in justice becomes apparent as she becomes more judgmental. She praised Mami for saving people from the witches, condemned both Kyouko and Homura for letting people die, criticized her best friend for not becoming a magical girl, and later implicitly kills the two chauvinists on the train. She tried to do the right thing, but the growing hatred made her shift from protection to punishment.

When Sayaka realizes the horror of her corruption and how she had come to contradict her earlier aspirations, all the hatred turns inward. It is precisely because of her unyielding nature that her spirit shatters. Unable to forgive this transgression, she inflicts her own punishment: a curse unto herself. From her Soul Gem hatches a mermaid-knight, a being representing the love and righteousness that she had once valued.

And that is why we have “I'm Such a Fool” as the name for episode 9.

—

—

Bottomline: Where the fuck is my Madoka ep11?

edited 1st Apr '11 1:37:57 PM by Yuunagi

/slowclap.

That is unbelievably spot-on. Hadn't thought about it that way before, but it makes perfect sense.

It should be pointed out that all girls (save for Homura perhaps, who was pretty nihilistic from the get-go) at one point believe that they maybe live in an universe where goodness and effort IS rewarded (which is why the harshness of the show screws them over so much). It is essentially this kind of thinking that dooms them. As Kyouko demonstrates, a magical girl is perfectly capable of surviving if she can only give up her higher ideals. But the moment they start thinking like that again, they are doomed.

The trap is of course that belief on those ideals is exactly why someone'd want to become a magical girl, before they get a full grasp on the situation.

So when they eventually learn the truth, this basic trait is still something so central to their existence that they can not -not- obey it, which is how the whole sinister system works.

Nowhere is this more apparent than in Kyouko's story. For the past six or so episodes she saw Sayaka's belief system methodically broken down and destroy her, and STILL she is able to feel inspired. And the moment she goes back to that sort of thinking she needs to die.

Mami, Sayaka and Madoka are unfit to become mahou shojo for this reason. (As it turns out, even Kyouko ultimately fell in with the same group.)

The only one truly fit to carry the burden, Homura. She is the only one who had become mahou shojo with proper understanding of what she was shouldering, and for a reason that is both very selfish (she demonstrated several times that she doesn't care for the rest of the world as long as she can be with Madoka) and at the same time, expecting no returns at all. This attitude is what makes her essentially immune to the emotional degradation that could make her a witch. When Homura tells Kyouko her that "Girls like you (who only think of themselves) are best suited to become magical girls", she also condemns herself. So it's no wonder that her initial reaction in Timeline 4 is trying to settle matters by herself - by that point she has realized that she is the only one who can do this. (She does not know enough about Kyouko yet though, leading to the mistake of recruiting her and eventually getting her killed in Timeline 5.)

It could be argued that even Homura is not completely immune to this;the reason that she clings onto Madoka so desperately, is because she is projecting those feelings onto her. In a way, Madoka represents her chance of "salvation" in a situation that she recognizes to be hopeless. Probably the biggest difference that this hopelessness is inherent to her personality, rather than an effect of her being a mahou shojo. So for Homura, the difference really does not matter. I don't think that she wished for a second that she didn't become a magical girl; for her it is no different from her human existence.

........ nods in agreement.

........ again, nods in agreement.

Edit: Crap. I'm Tweety.

edited 1st Apr '11 2:20:16 PM by HandsomeRob

What's wrong with Tweety?

Nothing, as long as there aren't any cats, metaphorical or literal, around.

Oriko's artist being a Touhou fan would explain why she looks so much like Daiyousei...

Also; this made me laugh

He's also an Uminkeo fan, it seems. Anyone willing to bet we'll get a witch named Beatrice?