Puella Magi Madoka Magica

It's not all that important. She could've been born on any date and it'd make no difference on the story, so long as she's in the same grade as Sayaka and Homura.

something

Suggest you quote or link it next time or something; I wouldn't generally assume something from several pages ago without further context.

It's not like there's ever only one issue the coobie society has to deal with. Coobies can have lots of different goals in different fields. They don't have an overabundance conflicting goals, presumably, because they can reason things out and figure out what is the actual best course of action; you can say that ultimately the supergoal is the greater good but it's not quite the same as your argument. Also, not exactly a bad thing. They don't trick each other and they don't make assumptions about what the other coobie said and then blame said coobie for miscommunicating, and they don't have to.

The problem with emotions is differing goals, sure, but more than the mere fact of differing goals, it's that every individual has an individual goal which often doesn't take into account the greater good*

and conflicts with other people's emotions. And humans often ultimately have the same goal but different priorities or interpretations of how to reach it, and then get angry at each other because the other guy's standing in their way. The coobies presumably don't do this.

Also they're emotionless so they won't be unnecessarily cruel. They possibly don't even understand the concept. They go for what is (as far as they can tell) objectively best, based on whatever evidence and reasoning they have. If they don't have to be fair, but they can be and it won't harm anything, why not? Especially since it usually involves less effort to wait for someone to have a wish than to set up situations where they're forced to do so.

And of course they care about individuals. Societies are made up of individuals. The species they are prolonging the lives of are a bunch of individuals. If you sacrifice an individual for multiple other individuals, it's still ultimately individual beings that you're protecting. If you grant individual rights and every individual benefits from those, then you ultimately are improving things for the whole society; as long as it doesn't conflict with something else the society needs, why not do it? The coobies can manage acceptable progress toward prolonging the life of the universe while giving a certain amount of respect to the rights they considered valuable, so may as well respect them. It's also possible that having a policy of respecting certain rights is better-off in the long run, so Kyubey would never break a policy of e.g. lying even if it would be useful in a specific instance, because ultimately it's less useful.

Although I'm not sure how it apparently ties into your argument that "the inkyubeytors don't care about the universe, only their corner of it." Unless you're not arguing that any more?

edited 4th Oct '12 12:01:26 PM by greedling

You will not go to space today.

Because their fairness is the one reason to think they wouldn't behave only in their own self interest. They're not empathic, don't have notions of (moral) purity, this would hardly conflict with in-group loyalty, and their authority has no reason besides this and not creating enemies to command it.

I'm arguing that they are only fair, because it serves their ends.

What I mean about them not caring about individuals is that they don't care about as anything besides parts of the whole. Just like You'll protect your cells, but what you're really trying to protect is you. Episode 11 all but explicitly states this.

Edit: Also Kyubey described humans as living in harmony (He probably wasn't revere to the the whole of humanity though.). They might very well have had wars over what was the best way to create the greatest good.

Edit: As for them following rules even if it doesn't make perfect sense this time, that only applies to races they're working with. And it is still out of selfishness. I'd still say that any rule they didn't break trying to get Madoka is likely impossible for them to break or at least would decrease the about of energy they'd get out of her. Even if they did respect humanity the damage her witch would cause is a fare worse breach of that respect, even if they don't know just how bad.

edited 4th Oct '12 1:13:28 PM by supermerlin100

If you look at a society of other beings and know that each and every one of them will follow the exact same logic as you, because they can't be swayed by emotions like greed or guilt, then you can always trust each other absolutely because you will always know exactly what they'll do. In any case where they differ from you, they will gladly explain so in detail, since Incubators don't have a concept of deception.

Because they're able to trust each other, they would definitely work together. Unless resources are so limited that only one Incubator can survive, they will always benefit more from cooperation than competition. This kind of logic is why humans build farms and roads instead of bashing our neighbors with clubs for their dinner.

Er... even if that's the case, not much different from humans. Humans can have compassion or empathy as additional motivations to be kind or fair as individuals, but quite often people are fair because the law tries to force them to be, or other societal factors might get involved.

As for the coobies, they would move toward more unfairness if they were required to in order to achieve their goals, but they'd need to be actively malicious to go out of their way to be unfair when they don't have to. And they're not. They just are neutral on things they don't need to take action on, except when there's an opportunity to contract.

There isn't really evidence that ingroup loyalty is a big thing for coobies; that sounds more like projection of a human point of view. To some extent maybe it has to exist merely because the coobies would agree with each other and those that don't agree may be enemies, but that's not the same as sticking together for the sake of sticking together.

But you have to pick whether you think they care for the whole or only themselves because even they wouldn't consider themselves the whole. The body analogy doesn't make sense since the person inhabiting the body actually is the important part of it and the cells literally just serve the whole (or you could say the brain) but in this case the body is the universe.

Although I'm not certain your argument that they care for the whole contradicts mine in any meaningful way.

To your first edit, humans were incapable of having substantial warfare before they developed agriculture, I'd think. And it was likely looking at the broader perspective of holy shit they haven't totally wiped themselves out.

To the second, well, yes, policies are often there because you have to interact with other beings, and being known for certain things can smooth relations. If it's because it's more effective, so what? I would very much doubt that the coobies have non-physical law-related rules they can't break, though; Kyubey individually might be literally unable to lie, but if so, its species probably designed it that way. And even if it did decrease the energy they'd get from witches if they broke those rules, usually, breaking the rules means they'd get more wishes so it could easily balance out. They didn't predict Kriemhild Gretchen when designing the system and the policies they put in place about it.

When they left humankind to their doom, it's because other things were more important than the respect they had for humans. They showed respect in their interactions but respect is not the most important thing ever.

As for "fairness is the one reason to think they wouldn't behave only in their own self interest", not exactly. Being emotionless and following only rational thought, which allows for "maybe I'm not important", is a reason. That they wanted to preserve the universe and keep the stars burning instead of shutting down the stars and then individually turning a few on at a time when they wanted to use it is a reason. That Kyubey can't understand that Madoka wouldn't want to become a witch to make a major contribution to saving the universe, because it can't understand being so selfish, is a reason. That the default assumption doesn't have to be that everyone acts only in their self-interest is a reason.

edited 4th Oct '12 1:44:05 PM by greedling

You will not go to space today.

I like it when a new person here is in the process of watching the show, because then the rest of us very briefly cover ever single topic we like to argue about.

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.

To the inkyubeytors the specie is what matters. So they're basically the cells. My point was that the indviduals might not be the important part as far as they're concerned.

The inkyubeytors presumably are the result of evolution. So being biased towards themselves isn't surprising. Questioning ones value generally isn't healthy. Most of the exceptions are justified by evolution at least indirectly.

The universe is still there even if heat death happens. The inkyubeytors want it to stay Inhabitable. Do you think they have a reason other then instinct to care?

Kyubey didn't know just how powerful Madoka would be, but he knew she'd have god like power.

My point is They're not exactly doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. So their not going to share that hard won energy unless it suits their end or they just have more then they know what to do with.

edited 4th Oct '12 2:22:21 PM by supermerlin100

Do remember that everything we know about them comes from two examples of their species, and Jyubey doesn't count at all for various reasons. Most of what we say about their society comes from our inferences about some vague statements a notably shifty creature has said. One example is not enough to get a definite hold on their society.

Their not doing it out of their hatred for humanity either. Given their hive-mindedness and their emotionlessness, I suspect they've learned the benefits of cooperation. So yes, sharing that energy with the universe is going to be less effective for their species, but better for the universe as a whole; as more species existing means more different points of view into the universe and more and more horizons they can explore together. Heterogeneity among the universe's population strengthens that population.

Of course, if they are unreliable narrators to the absolute extreme, than any and all speculation about anything is meaningless. Which is why we're taking them at face value for at least the bits of information they freely offer. Yeah, they might have been lying about not lying or about being emotionless, but if those are true, then there's not really any point in discussing them or anything at all.

edited 4th Oct '12 3:15:23 PM by Antimatter625

I write some fanfiction. Satori's Tale is done... but I'm not.

x3 If you value life, it might have started based on instinct but it goes beyond that. That's what being capable of thought does. Realising you aren't important in the grand scheme of things isn't necessarily healthy, but you know, it's true. The coobies don't have irrational attachments to things that aren't true. Furthermore they don't really have a bias toward individual importance. When they noticed they weren't the reason the universe exists, it's not like they had to follow up with "therefore we should die" because that's just silly. They could go on to figure what is important, and what they can do about it. They might decide to live on even if they aren't the most valuable creatures in the universe for various reasons, including because they obviously can't do anything if they no longer exist.

And of course they'd be the result of evolution. Yes, and? Look at how varied the species on our planet are. Merely stating they are the result of evolution doesn't condemn the coobies to be any one thing.

Does not follow. The coobies could have various reasons more complex than "the goodness of their hearts" to preserve the universe in a life-enabling state. If they just wanted to protect themselves, there's a universe's worth of energy out there and they wouldn't have to let all that energy go to waste while dealing with emotional species. It asks Madoka if she knows how much energy is wasted as all the species of the universe clash; surely, if the coobies are the only ones that matter, they would just stop that waste.

Furthermore, Kyubey says that the universe could be empty/withering to death/whatever translation you choose by the time humans reach the stars. If its work is supposed to do anything about it, that's inherently sharing all that energy because the energy is there for everyone.

I wouldn't agree that they're a real hive mind but I agree with the rest. It might be noted Kyubey thinks humans might join it among the stars... as its allies or companions. It's probably a little naive, but that does at least indicate they think what they're doing is something we would be grateful for if we truly understood the implications of it. This wouldn't make sense if it was only saving its own kind.

edited 4th Oct '12 3:15:57 PM by greedling

You will not go to space today.

I'm imagining coobie being the science officer on a federation starship. In a tiny little uniform.

And spock ears over its ear ears.

edited 4th Oct '12 3:21:13 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

Your ability to casually and more to the point, effectively defend the Kyuubeys both impresses me and frightens me.

Would you be willing to play Devil's Advocate and come up with an argument against the Kyubeys? This isn't out of spite towards them(I think I'm finally over that), I just want to see if you can do it, and it would be something new in this argument.

One Strip! One Strip!

Er... thanks? Bocaj and Pulp Free Bookworm seem to convey things better than I do when they get around to doing it though.

As for the devil's advocacy, er, maybe? It would feel like cheating if I do anything but use the same interpretation of Kyubey's character, motivation, and society, though, and that somehow Kyubey's wrong despite that. (Unless that's the point you wanted, I guess, particularly in context of the post you're pointing to, but asking me to selectively interpret scenes differently seems pointless. Easier, sure, but.) Would be cheating—and ultimately meaningless in context of my usual arguments—to use a different moral value system that conveniently doesn't ultimately value the greater good too. To an extent overly different interpretations of "greater good" would be a bit shady but that's the likeliest fallback. So it'd take a bit more time to compose arguments that make sense. Maybe impossible. Maybe on the order of days, if I want to do it properly, so this forum isn't a good place for it.

Depends on exactly the point I try to argue too I guess. "Kyubey is evil" is actually a bit different from "What Kyubey is doing is wrong" (character vs actions). "Kyubey is selfish"... mm, probably not.

Couldn't say without reservation that my interest is all that high though. And I haven't really seen compelling arguments against them; people can argue all the ways the coobies are being terrible to the magical girls and spew rhetoric until the heat death of the universe, but usually don't independently*

bring up Kyubey's motivations, which are quite important.

But yes, taking Kyubey's side is easy, evidence is easy to find, and arguments are easy to compose. You might want to consider that maybe there's a reason this is the case. :P

Come to the fluffy side. We have marshmallows.

You will not go to space today.

Aw shucks, Greedling. I was just thinking the same thing about you.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

NEVER!!!!!!!

I don't like Marshmellows.

Well okay, I do, but not enough. I chose my side.

One Strip! One Strip!

Nah, that last post in particular was pretty well-done. And there's a lot to be said for a communicative over argumentative style.

Our marshmallows are adorable, though. ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼

You will not go to space today.

It's perfectly understandable to feel that the Qbs are vile reprehensible creatures, but pretending it's for reasons other than the fact that they're taking advantage of HUMANS, and young females drawn in a cutesy art style at that, is silly. It's once again perfectly understandable as it's the way we're programmed; if we don't look out for number 1 as a species then who will, right?

What Measure Is a Non-Human? is in full swing, I think. Truly, a person's values system comes into play when this topic is discussed, and there aren't really "wrong" values, just different ones. Well, and socially-frowned-upon ones but I don't think that's anything that's been expressed in this discussion. So, I don't think we'll ever come to a consensus, just find out who feels what about the Qbs.

edited 4th Oct '12 5:12:02 PM by PulpFreeBookworm

The baby bat/ Screamed out in fright,/ 'Turn on the dark,/ I'm afraid of the light.'

Hmm...pretty much this, sometimes I feel like we are going in circles about the coobies.

Shame they can use the energy from our confusion.

One Strip! One Strip!

Well, we are going in circles. Sometimes new people join the circle though.

It generally follows similar patterns, really. Arguments supporting Kyubey are those that consider the greater good of the universe, and those pointing out the mitigating factors in the evilness of its actions toward the magical girls. Arguments against Kyubey generally try to reinterpret the facts so that it's conveniently not fighting for the greater good at all and therefore hey look no moral argument, or else just don't consider the greater good [relatively important/period]. It's probably irreconcilable.

Kyubey is more adorable than any magical girl though. Other than Amy, the only one worth petting.

You will not go to space today.

This is show is weird, because it made me like Kyubey enough to buy a lifesize plushie version of him, yet hate him enough to outright refuse to take his side ever.

‽‽‽‽ ^These are interrobangs. Love them. Learn them. Use them.

That's nothing. I've been writing literature based on the show. Something's wrong with me.

Feel free to visit my yokai blog.

greedlin There's something they value about themselves that some other species have? I doubt it's life. They did mention our sentience. However this makes it sounds like they have emotions. I seems more likely that when they realized they didn't matter in the big picture they just didn't care.

I think Antimatter 625's point about this might have some weight though.

Being the result of evolution does put limits on what they can be though.

At the end of the day they just don't care about anything. I doubt they feel the need to justify their survival. That is taken as a primitive. If you asked them why any of this matters they'd just say "I don't get it". They don't enjoy life, they don't fear death, they just live.

"if the coobies are the only ones that matter, they would just stop that waste." How do we know that they aren't? Kyubey said "Do you know how many cultures exist in this universe?" Normally that could be taken as "lots" But that doesn't strictly follow.

"Kyubey says that the universe could be empty [...] by the time humans reach the stars." What he says is "It wouldn't be nice if the universe was dying by then, would it?" Again he didn't say it would be dying. I fact this would imply it would take longer then the Sun's life span for us to reach the stars. But we would be dead by then if we didn't. So it's all but lying here

I take it as a bad sign that kyubey is still talking like that.

edited 4th Oct '12 6:18:59 PM by supermerlin100

Hm... you've dropped my last g multiple times now so I'm not sure you've actually noticed it. I mean, you mix up a few other things, but my name is right on all of my posts.

While emotion is so tied up with human psychology that it may be hard to understand what valuing something means to an emotionless being, value doesn't really overtly require emotion. You'd need some grounds to base a morality or value system on (like instinct maybe) but you can declare something inherently more valuable than another thing. Life, particularly sentient life, are things the coobies likely consider important. One of the things Kyubey brings up in defence of its contracts is its respect for our consent, because it recognises us as sentient beings.

They have to care about something that makes the universe worth preserving. If they "just live" they don't have to fight to save the universe, or even themselves, because having no attachments means they can just let the universe end when it does because natural death is totally okay right. And merely reaching the science and technology levels needed to be as powerful as they are requires some level of caring about the universe around them. Developing technology that turns emotions into energy, same thing. If you don't care about anything you don't achieve anything because you're not going to put in the effort.

Kyubey's wording differs according to translation - tri4's "withering to death" and gg's "dying" universe are still consistent with us leaving Earth before the sun makes the planet uninhabitable. (Also the stars are far away so maybe we'd be able to escape the solar system but still not really reach the stars—or at least the stars with planets worth reaching—for a long time.) I agree it's a bit odd if you take it as literally the universe will be desolate before the sun dies, but that'll be addressed next paragraph, and also it can speak nonliterally to make a point (like with livestock) and that's still the image it has of what the universe would be like without them. But you didn't address the main point, in that it's pretty clearly sharing the energy. And it's pretty likely the stars around them are still there.

You can insist that if there's any wiggle room for Kyubey lying, it must be lying so conveniently you can consider it evil without bringing up complex moral arguments. But then the argument may as well end. As Antimatter said, we have to more or less take Kyubey's words at face value in absence of contradicting evidence, because that's the only real indication we have to believe one way or another. Otherwise you're basing things on pretty much literally nothing, except for how you want that universe to be so that you can be free to feel as you do. You're not actually saying that Kyubey is only acting selfishly based on stuff portrayed in the show, you're just running with your interpretation of what an emotionless being must be like, and start with "they must be selfish" as an assumption so that you can default to it when you ignore all the evidence saying otherwise, and—even though that's not really how it works—that's fine, I guess, but then it's almost entirely personal headcanon that you're clinging to because you want to, so why argue it?

In any case, if Kyubey really doesn't understand what tricking means, it would speak the same way when it's leaving out a few things as when it's not, so it's not like "oh it's speaking that way" leads to "therefore it's being deceitful".

edited 4th Oct '12 7:08:21 PM by greedling

You will not go to space today.

I'm not sure why I keep dropping the gs. I guest I misremembered and then just didn't look after that

They care basically in the sense that a plant does. Effort doesn't bother them.

"respect for our consent, because it recognises us as sentient beings. " Again that's not what he said. He said that he ask for our consent and acknowledges that we are sentient. That could actually be taken as saying cow are to. I've already said that I think unless the inkyubeytors are Lawful Stupid, they don't seem to have a choice about the consent part.

He did say that right after saying that they do make compromises with humanity. But in that case they considered simply acknowledging our sentience.

I'm going of of kyubey's track record here. He only says things on a need to know basis, unless specifically asked. Unfortunatly the definition of need to know is being filtered through his values not ours.

If there were billions of cultures out there Kyubey would have said so. That would be more likely to convince Madoka. The universe really isn't going to be much worst off by the time the sun dies. The era of stars will still be in full swing.

I didn't say anything about inkyubeytors being evil, only selfish. I wouldn't even count them as moral players.

Taking Kyubey's words at face value is proven to be a bad idea. Exact words can be trusted though. If he said they were helping, I'd trust him. If he said they could violate human will, but don't then I'd trust him.

At best I see no reason to think they aren't selfish.

edited 4th Oct '12 8:06:38 PM by supermerlin100