Chrono Trigger

I kind of want to believe it's meant to be almost ironic, but I'm pretty certain the writers genuinely believe it's valid commentary on environmentalism.

I like the game, but I'll never say the story was uniformly great.

You also get a great scene with Kid when you leave Water Dragon Isle after dealing with the dwarves. I mentioned it earlier since leaving Kid to die is the way to learn more about Kid.

But I don't have any problem with Kid saying 'I would have getten better." It's foreshadowing and explained later on.

And maybe, just maybe, the evil genocidal dwarves shouldn'tbe taken as voicing the game's themes? Especially since if you save the Hydra with Razzly the Dwarves admit they were totally wrong?

The Dark Id is a funny guy but his analysis of various topics is not perfect.

edited 16th Mar '18 10:57:04 AM by Nikkolas

I love this LP

^^ Correct me if I'm mistaken, it's been ages since I've fully played Cross, but I'm pretty sure the fairies agree with the dwarves in blaming humanity for everything that happened to them after you beat the boss tank. I think that part is only changed by having Razzly with you when you go to the island, who tries to defend you and I think only kind of succeeds (like, I remember humanity still being blamed in the end, but only not as harshly)? Really wish I could remember more clearly, but regardless I'm certain it wasn't just the dwarves passing the blame, otherwise I don't think that whole event would be as controversial as it was.

edited 16th Mar '18 11:32:33 AM by Customer

They do, yes. The rest of the fairies specifically blame humanity for the Dwarves' plight. It is clearly intended as a Humans Are Bastards moment.

re: Kid, I always read that line as referring to the fact that she's only there because Schala is fucking with history from outside the timeline. It's not clear if Schala is somehow fudging events so that Kid isn't actually killed, or if Kid actually dies and Schala just sends a new one in to replace her, or what. It's kind of an odd line, since it raises a bunch of questions but is brushed off almost immediately. But I don't think it like, retroactively invalidates the drama over Kid being in mortal peril. Even if she would have respawned after dying (or whatever), Serge et al didn't know that. Their emotion at the situation was genuine.

re: dwarves, I think what they were going for is the idea that the humans forced the dwarves out of their home, which forced them to strike out elsewhere, even if "elsewhere" was already occupied. It's not the most well-executed subplot in the game, certainly, but I think the idea was that it wasn't humanity's fault that the dwarves decided to solve their problems with genocide, but it's the humans who pushed the dwarves to the breaking point in the first place. But it's still not a particularly satisfying story arc.

Oh, I fully know that's how the mechanics of Kid's survival go. And the emotion bit would ring more true if anyone but Korcha really voiced any concern. Serge doesn't have emotions coz he's a silent protagonist with no personality. And none of the characters ever voice concern for Kid outside of the moments where you decide to saver her or not (and even then, several of them don't at all).

So the emotions were genuine bit sort of falls flat.

Heck, the character with the most emotional impact from Kid's predicament is Doc, and HIS story only reaches his conclusion if you don't cure Kid.

edited 16th Mar '18 12:03:42 PM by Ghilz

I mean, if you don't think the scene works as-is, then the weird bit about respawning later isn't going to change that. If you do think it works (and I certainly did), then the respawn line doesn't retroactively make it not work.

That said, I would point out that the question you get about Kid isn't "save her" or "don't save her". Korcha basically tells you that it's impossible to save her because you need hydra humor and there are no hydras left in El Nido and the sea currents make it impossible to get to the mainland, and then he asks what you're going to do next. Your options are to go full shonen and say "I'm going to save her no matter what!" even though you've just been told that it's literally impossible, or to say "I don't know" because, well, you don't know. My first play through I picked the latter, because I honestly didn't know. If it had been presented as "save her" or "don't save her", I sure as hell wouldn't have picked "don't save her".

As an aside, I would disagree that Serge doesn't show any emotion just because he's a silent protagonist. Stuff like "I'M DEFINITELY GONNA SAVE HER!!" vs "I... don't know" are definitely pretty emotive, and it's only reinforced by things like his body language and the soundtrack. You can argue that he's not really showing emotion but just allowing the player to read emotions onto his blank slate... but that's the entire point of silent protagonists.

I mean, you're putting way more emotion than the text prompt does◊.

As for body language, meh? He shakes his head at most. Like we're not talking slumped shoulders, punching the wall in anger, or such stuff.

edited 16th Mar '18 12:35:34 PM by Ghilz

Serge probably shows the most emotion when concerning Kid. One of his most distinct moments is when a brainwashed Kid attacks Hermit's Hideaway after returning to Another World. Lynx-Serge has a moment where he just walks away from everybody and has flashbacks of Kid, clearly mourning what has become of her.

I remember back when I was first playing CC there was a poster elsewhere who challenged that that Serge just had no motivation to do anything. Like, why is he going after Lynx? What is driving him? My answer then is the same as the one I have now; Serge clearly has feelings for Kid (even if you refuse her at all opportunities, which is a strange design decision and maybe even a bad one but whatever) and he's also probably just curious about why this evil cat-man knows him and what all that stuff he said meant. Plus, lynx had already sent goons after him so Serge probably figured he had to go on the offensive.

I still found more personality in Serge than Crono but that's because I largely just find the Twerp Trio of CT to be the worst part of teh game. Magus and Frog are the best characters because they have the strongest motivations, personality, backstory, etc.. And I think I might replay CT after I'm done with CC, dunno yet.

Welp, you got me, the scene is objectively not emotional. I felt nothing from that scene, and anyone who says they did is lying.

This is why I generally avoid this kind of nitpicking conversation. I thought the scene was good. You didn't. That's fine, opinions are things, but seriously. "Eh, it didn't do anything for me, but if had used all caps and two exclamation points, man, the would have been something" is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous. There's a reason All Caps Mode is a thing and people will get slammed in chat rooms for only using all caps. It conveys emotion. That If the text had been written the way you said it was (And with the wording you used), I'd have agreed it would've showed emotion on Serge's part. I find the actual wording passive and it doesn't illustrate any emotion on his end. Though I will agree with Nikkolas that Serge does show emotion about Kid later, I had forgotten those moments.

But yeah, I guess opinions are ridiculous if they are not your own?

edited 16th Mar '18 1:30:37 PM by Ghilz

The ellipses before "I don't know" does convey some emotion, especially contrasted against the flat statement. Though, as Serge is kind of blank slatey, you could interpret it multiple ways.

I've settled the dispute of whether or not you need to play Trigger before Cross in order to appreciate it.

I played CT a few years ago but holy fucking shit, I did not rememberLucca's mother's name. And if you don't remember her name, you cannot do the Code to get Kid's Level 7 Tech. The game helpfully reminds you that Lucca's dad's name is Taban but WHO FUCKING CARES.

It drove me mad, I ran around the orpahange, ruining the otherwise perfect atmosphere and storytelling, all because I was madly searching for some clue about what the fuck her mom's name was. I eventually gave upt and just looked it up.

But there you have it. If you like Kid and want her to be at her best, I hope you played Chrono Trigger. And recently so you remember the name of a minor NPC. The scene with rescuing Lucca's mother is like the best moment in the whole game in terms of writing but hell ifI could remember the name. I don't think that's my fault and it certainly wouldn't be the fault of anyone who didn't even play Chrono Trigger.

I'm being mostly facetious here, I'm just really irritated. I hate when games do sshit like this

Her name is XABY, right?

Sorry, Lucca apparently changed her name to L1-Triangle-R1-Triangle.

Look, when Tabban married the daughter of ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA, he knew what he was getting into.

edited 16th Mar '18 3:44:26 PM by Ghilz

The burning orphanage scene was the only time I liked Kid.

I mean it still killed Gato which is probably the second most pointlessly mean spirited moment in Cross but it was an effective enough scene.

edited 16th Mar '18 3:57:21 PM by Mr.Badguy

I'm guessing the first most pointlessly mean spirited moment is "Prometheus deleted?"

That was mean spirited, but at least it wasn't pointless. Also I take solace in the fact that Chrono Cross' inherent retcony narrative negates Robo's death after the story concluded (which probably happened at least to Lucca too IDK Cross is vague).

Number One is finding Johnny's corpse on the highway in the Dead Sea.

edited 16th Mar '18 4:11:38 PM by Mr.Badguy

I was gonna go for "Porre conquered Gardia using that army they presumably had in a basement"

But those two are close seconds.

I always have to laugh at the dialogue after the Once-King Dalton bonus fight in Chrono Trigger DS, where Dalton tells the party where and how he's going to take his revenge. It's such a heavy-handed reference to the Porre thing in Chrono Cross. To the point that I tend to think that Dalton actually creates an alternate timeline there, wherein Marle stops Dalton's army plan as soon as he pops out of the timestream again.

Then again, that might be in-character. Dalton is honestly that much of a dumbass, especially later on in the game.

Didn't he actually have like an doom airship? I feel like I remember a part of CT where you fight a giant aerial warship and like robots or cannons are enemies....

But ya know, if Porre has shit like that, good luck beating them without wandering adventurers. The setting is supposed to be medieval.

I mean, Porre in CC has a cyborg assassin and sends Lucca weapons so....

edited 16th Mar '18 4:37:37 PM by Nikkolas

Well, technology doesn't mean as much as you'd think. This is a world where sexy cavewomen can punch out robots.

God that Porre thing was so dumb. No amount of "Dalton helped them" will ever make giving a forgettable port town a giant army make sense.

edited 16th Mar '18 4:39:46 PM by LordVatek