Martial Arts Thread

Yeah, Rigo is a counterpuncher, specifically what I think of as a "trap" counterpuncher, which means that he likes to purposefully leave "openings" for his opponent, and then punish them with something they didn't see coming when they take the bait. (Whereas most counterpunchers tend to rely on a constant game of moving away from their opponent and countering the opponent's attempt to go first and start an offense.) It requires patience, speed, reflexes, and knowing the game inside and out. He also has very good, unorthodox defense that makes him tough to hit unless you can get him out of position and catch him by surprise.

Lomachenko can fight coming forward or going backward, but his lies in aggressively coming in, breaking up the defense, rhythm and timing of his opponents with unexpected changes in speed or angles, and a whole host of tricks that leave an opponent who is on the defensive blinded, confused, and struggling to adapt.

The fight card (with 4 fights on it) is scheduled to start at 9PM eastern time (under an hour from now) and in the US, is showing on ESPN.

These are definitely 2 masters of the game in every way. I mentioned their amateur record in a previous post. Rigo was apparently 463-12 as an amateur, while Lomachenko had 390 fights as an amateur and only lost once. It just doesn't get much better than seeing two guys like that in one ring.

And just because he does good and informative work, I'm going to leave a few links to a youtuber called the Modern Martial Artist doing a profile of each fighter and then comparing them to each other.

Rigo's counterpunching technique

Lomachenko's footwork, angles, and how he blinds opponents

How their styles might play against one another

edited 9th Dec '17 6:11:40 PM by TheWanderer

Well, the fight ended up being a bust... basically, they both had the tools and the smarts to take away each other's best weapons, at which point it came down to Lomachenko's significant size advantage, and the fact that he was fully willing to win ugly and through roughhousing. (Lomachenko learned well, as his only pro loss was to a guy who spent the whole fighting ugly and dirty, and afterward Lomachenko made up his mind to never be caught trying to fight fair against someone who was going to abuse the rules.)

Rigo had no answer for that, and no way to get to the bigger man, so he eventually admitted defeat and ended the fight in the mid rounds. Sadly, the match didn't even really live up to the chess match I was hoping for, but for those who want to see boxing technique done well, I'd still encourage checking out the video links above. Don't waste your time by tracking down this particular bout, however.

Aww that is a pity. So basically they were good enough that neither could gain an edge with technique and turned into a slug match. Which the larger fighter won.

In regards to the Japanese bayonet-based martial art named Jukendo, what's the difference between it and the pre-World War II jukenjustsu, given that according to that I link I provided, jukenjutsu was banned by the Allies after the war ended and jukendo came about as a result?

edited 10th Dec '17 5:31:44 AM by HallowHawk

One's a sport (jukendo), the other is used to kill people (jukenjutsu). The Allies banned martial arts practice during the early stages of the occupation as they were seen to promote militant behaviour. Modern martial arts (judo, aikido, kendo etc.) had to lobby hard to have the restriction lifted and prove that they are a tool of self-cultivation and sport.

When turning something into a sport, there will emerge huge differences in core techniques to accommodate the changed purpose.

edited 10th Dec '17 12:33:11 PM by TerminusEst

Yeah, but all boxing fans should be used to disappointment.

Mmm... yes and no, to an extent. Lomachenko shut down all chance Rigo had for counter punching and was too smart to play to Rigo's usual tactics. Rigo partially nullified Lomachenko's usual attempts to move all around an opponent and confuse them with sidestepping and angles, until it looks like there are three or four Lomachenkos in the ring, but it wasn't nearly enough to stop Lomachenko's offense, and Loma was in control throughout.

When I say he was willing to win ugly, as a for example, one of Rigo's favorite defensive moves is to bend his knees and bend his body forward at the waist so he gets under punches thrown by others and there's little to no chance of hitting him in the face. Loma solved that dilemma by simply being willing to hit Rigo on the back of the head a lot. Think like if you make a fist and bring the pinky side straight down, like bringing a hammer down on a nail. It's not what you're taught to do as a boxer and hitting on the back of the head is illegal, but most refs allow it if the other guy is bending that way, because technically bending to waist level or below is also illegal even if it's never enforced and where else can someone try to punch you if you're doing that?

Everything Rigo tried to do on defense, Loma was a step ahead of him and ready for all his usual tricks.

It turned into something halfway between a boxing and wrestling match after a couple of rounds, with the two guys often just trying to grab and push each other to jockey for position up close. It was also surprisingly dirty, something neither guy has a reputation for. I guess that's mostly reflecting Rigo's frustration and Loma cooly answering every time Rigo tried to get away with something.

Anyway, if you're interested in learning more, the same guy I linked to before very quickly put up an analysis with footage from the fight, which is probably going to be more illuminating than me trying to paint a picture with words.

I saw that. It wasn't what I was hoping to see but Lom won with a solid tactic. I was hoping to see somethng with a bit more flash if you will. Well fight smarter not harder.

edited 11th Dec '17 3:01:16 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Thanks

New question, I've been reading up some judo throws, and I noticed something. There's the seoi nage and the ippon seoi nage. Based on a video of the former and a video of the latter, what's the difference?

There isn't any in those videos. Seoi-nage just means "shoulder throw" and is a general form of throw within the te-waza class. Ippon seoi-nage, means a one-handed shoulder throw (both of the videos), morote seoi-nage means two-handed shoulder throw and so on.

edited 13th Dec '17 5:00:08 AM by TerminusEst

More generally regarding -do versus -jutsu martial arts: do, means "the way of" while jutsu essentially means "skill at" or "skill with". So generally Japanese martial arts that end in do will place more emphasis on personal development, philosophy, and even sport than those that end in jutsu, even though they come from the same root. (Apologies if this is something you're already familiar with.)

So, for example, ken means sword, and kendo is the way of the sword, which is where you have everyone dressing up in cool blue armor and swinging shinai (these wooden swords◊) at each other while simultaneously calling out where they're going to strike. Kenjutsu, on the other hand, means skill with a sword, and that's the old school fighting where you are taught to cut off your opponent's limbs and/or kill them as quickly and efficiently as possible.

It's also why judo features two guy approaching well within reach of each other, grabbing hold of one another's gi, jockeying for a position until one spots an opening to do a throw, while jujutsu tends to feature two guys cautiously staying out of each other's reach until one finds a way to grab ahold of a bone or joint and start bending or twisting it in ways it isn't meant to bend or twist. That ends when your opponent either gives up or decides to spend the next couple of months nursing a broken bone or dislocated joint.

Of course, my experience is somewhat limited in these areas, so take what I say with a grain of salt, and somebody please let me know if I'm wrong.

You're not wrong. However, the "way" and "skill" dichotomy is largely a modern one, and is used to define the two in current media and speech. Judo was in fact considered a jujutsu school in its early days and the curriculum was different as well. Elements of this still exist, but the focus shifted more and more to the sport side, so things like striking and some of the more nastier throws tend to be left out completely. As an interesting detail here are the four ''kinshi-waza'', which are totally banned in Judo.

Koryu often have their own vocabulary and texts describing sword combat in various ways. While Kashima Shinryu will call it kenjutsu, the Kukishin-ryu will call it kenpou (sword method). There was no real standardised way of talking about it until the Edo period.

edited 14th Dec '17 2:49:40 AM by TerminusEst

So is there anything to the notion that vertical punches with the bottom three knuckles grant slightly longer reach and better support compared to horizontal ones for bareknuckle?

Alternately, any sources on whether traditional muay thai used horizontal or vertical punches?

Isshin-ryu karate emphasizes vertical punches, as does Wing Chun, but I know of no scientific literature asserting the use of the bottom knuckles with either a vertical punch or a horizontal punch.

I've been studying Muay Thai for over a year now, and ditto on the previous point. However, some traditional Muay Thai might incorporate what is sometimes called an incomplete uppercut that leads to a rib shot, but I wouldn't read too deeply into it. I personally advise against using the bottom knuckles because of their position relative to the wrist and forearm, but bare-knuckle striking in general should be used sparingly, so I also don't think it makes much of a difference.

edited 27th Dec '17 1:49:26 PM by Aprilla

The very first of yearly demonstrations of the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, an association of classical martial arts schools. The video is in Japanese, but it has interesting performances regardless.

edited 17th Jan '18 8:05:04 AM by TerminusEst

That was cool. I was a bit surprised to see a sodegarami "Man Catcher" at 27:33.

That would be Hokusui-ryu Hogujutsu. They specialised in hogu, the weapons and equipment of Edo police. Sadly, it seems the school is no longer extant.

Pity it looked interesting.

As consolation you can find the use of the sword catcher:

If you're interested here's a list of schools under the association.

edited 18th Jan '18 6:10:50 AM by TerminusEst

So there are two dojos in my town, one is Kyokushin Karate and the other Goshin Jutsu. I'd like to know the summary of the two and how that could supplement my Krav Maga and some muscle memory with Taekwon Do. So what are the main differences?

edited 12th Feb '18 4:02:36 PM by RevolverZen

Goshinjutsu is just Japanese for "self-defence". With nothing else to go on, it sounds like a Mc Dojo. You have any other information on it?

Kyokushin is a hard full-contact form of karate. Puts heavy emphasis on physical conditioning. With Krav Maga and Taekwondo under your belt, it could meld pretty well.

edited 13th Feb '18 8:11:27 AM by TerminusEst

It claims to use elements of Karate and realistic training, it also says it does kudo, the closest thing I can find to it is Kokodan Gushin Jutsu which seems to be a form of Judo. So yeah, dunno about it, might have to do a recce.

Kyokushin sounds more likely and useful. Might have to pop down and see what it's like, it sounds good.

The Kodokan Goshinjutsu are a series of forms that are practiced in Judo. They're from various schools of classical jujutsu, which were used to teach basic self-defence principles in the early days of Judo. As Judo got more "sportified", they kind of fell by the wayside and are generally practiced only by the higher ranks.

Could be a newer system, but otherwise it sounds a bit sketchy. But check it out, you never know.

edited 13th Feb '18 8:21:54 AM by TerminusEst

Yeah think I will, I've been looking at their facebook page and they have overwhelmingly positive reviews and a good success rate in competitions. I also heard good things from a taxi driver who goes there says it's got a mixture of hard and soft in there. With an aim to make more pragmatic karate, it says, according to the Facebook page that it teaches Goshin Karate has its roots in Shotokai and Budokan Karate.

Yeah, might pop down and have a go.

edited 13th Feb '18 12:53:24 PM by RevolverZen

I am now conflicted.

There is a MMA place that has BJJ and muay thai right next to where I work, which sounds hella enticing.

Buuuut I also kinda want to get back into wushu again and pick up a couple of compulsory sets, namely staff and straightsword, since I discovered that a couple of the Soul Calibur exhibition theater sets are the first set wushu compulsories.

(Have since given up my thought of finding some traditional place; seems like xingyi and baji are still rare enough that even in the SF Bay Area it's hard to find a school for it).

Pick whichever is most affordable for you, both in terms of time and money. That's something many people gloss over, really - doesn't matter how cool a martial art is, if it's too much effort to keep going to the lessons, it's gonna get dropped pretty soon.