Gesture Drawing (Also - Attitude)

Okay, I thought this might as well get a separate topic.

So I feel I need to improve my art skillset, and one of the major things is learning to draw people. In another thread Roman recommended doing gesture drawing - basically, sketches of the forms of people done in a very short time (like, 10seconds to a minute).

Roman recommended using this tool - it's an automatic switcher which brings up new poses every 30 seconds to force you to draw quickly.

I guess my main query relates to how I approached this. At first, I got the wrong idea and was merely trying to draw the silhouettes of each pose in a single line. I corrected my mistake and switched to doing sketching, instead.

It seems I may not have been getting it quite right, though - the videos and pictures I've seen of gesture drawings already done look very scribbley. I'm going to give that a try now.

And, on a slightly unrelated note - I find one of my problems with doing Art is the attitude; this page seems like it would be a useful information resource, but for the flowery unnecessary guff:

When we start thinking about this concept when we are drawing or painting, we look beyond appearances to strive for the essence of the objects we are looking at. Each thing is unique - animal, vegetable, or mineral. Each thing is precious, irreplaceable, fragile, mortal. Each thing has a personality - try to find what that distinction is and express it. Not its outward appearance - but its internal meaning.

WHAT - BE QUIET JUST TELL ME HOW TO DO GESTURE DRAWINGS

...Do I have the wrong attitude for art/drawing?

I have the same attitude.

I haven't practiced gesture drawing on purpose at all, now that I think about it. But i'm decent enough anyway so I don't really mind.

-has no helpful information-

Cutting through the guff in that excerpt, I'm getting "don't just draw the physical position that limb is in, think about the meaning of the gesture being made". Does that help any?

To expand on that a bit, think of all the ways that you can flip someone the bird, and all the reasons for doing it. The hand is in basically the same position in all of them, but the essence of the gesture is different — and the drawings should reflect that difference.

edited 10th Dec '10 5:47:06 PM by Madrugada

Mad: That helps a bit, I guess, but I only posted that paragraph is an example rather than a specific part I'm having problems with. I have trouble generally reading the whole "Read the gesture, the emotion of the piece" thing.

Surely that shouldn't effect the drawing? If I'm doing a 1:1 recreation, then it'll be the same no matter what mood the pose is?

I don't know why, but just doing these gesture pieces annoys me even as I'm drawing them. As if the action of sketching the poses at all is generating irritation, like producing static by rubbing a piece of amber.

I mean, I've only been doing them for a couple of days but the ones I've done are an improvement over any of the stuff I do from imagination. But I don't think I'm learning anything from them so far - how long does it take for this gesture drawing to have an impact on the regular drawing I do?

Ed: do you have any links to your drawings?

edited 10th Dec '10 5:53:13 PM by EthZee

Hmm, I haven't really done gesture drawings since my first year of drawing classes, but when we did them then we were supposed to try to lift our pencil as little as possible and try to capture the expression/pose of the person. It was supposed to be really scribbly and everything, no facial details or muscle details. If you know how some people draw people using little balls at joints and lines for the bones, it was sort of like that, only much faster and messier.

See, if I'm going to scribble then I have to actually think to scribble. And should gesture drawings dig so hard into the page? I end up pressing the pencil down quite hard when I'm doing them, should that be happening?

I wouldn't recommend thinking about it in terms of making scribbles. Try thinking more about quickly getting down the lines of the basic structure and main joints of the person. Almost as if you were going to take them and make them into a little simplified wire person. And I really don't think it matters how much pressure you apply on a gestural drawing unless you're using the line weight to show what's light and what's dark.

Okay, then. I mean, I've tried doing that now and it seems to work, although once I've done the wire skeleton, I assume there's more stuff to do (doing the skeleton takes less than 30 seconds).

Once you do the skeleton, do you draw the rest of it? The body shape, etc?

And is this a good way of learning the shape of the body? Or is it only good for gestures and poses?

I need to get some proper sketching pencils. I've been using a cheap office pencil, probably not ideal.

I mean, I guess I have to revise the body shapes separately? I have problems remembering that kind of thing. Stuff like the shape of muscles in the legs, shoulders, arms... hands are a particular bother; even now, if I'm drawing the hands on a posed figure I need to check my own hands to work out which side of the hands the thumbs go on. -_-

I think my main problem is my stupid mind. I just need to ignore it.

I don't have any examples, because I can't draw for crap. I've never set my mind to learning how. But at the differences in the muscle tone in the hand and arm between these three instances of someone flipping the finger.

edited 10th Dec '10 7:34:19 PM by Madrugada

I can't say I completely know wether to start adding more details. I remember starting to create form for 'long' gestures (2-10 minute long poses, I think?) And I would say it leans more towards being helpful for working on poses and gestures, but it's not completely useless for working on body shape. Try not to get too caught up on little things. There isn't really a 'right' or 'wrong' way to do these kinds of things.

There isn't really a 'right' or 'wrong' way to do these kinds of things.

No. But there is a way that's more likely to result in a better end result, yes? One that's easier, or more accurate to life?

Do you really need another example? Posemaniacs has some videos of people doing gestures at the bottom of their page.

Still, I can never resist a chance to show off. I'm not as good as I used to be, but these◊ were done, after making another layer, switching off the previous layer, and switching back to the new layer. these◊ were done in 30 seconds under the same circumstances.

There are big variances in quality. I've mostly been doing them from imagination, untimed, for a while now. It's actually really fun to show the clock who's boss.

On "attitude." Gesture is trying to teach a bunch of different concepts at once, by taking advantage of human capability for interpreting the "gestalt" of the thing, i.e. the basic idea of something, all at once, without focusing on little details.

edited 10th Dec '10 7:54:21 PM by Roman

It seems I may not have been getting it quite right, though - the videos and pictures I've seen of gesture drawings already done look very scribbley. I'm going to give that a try now.

This is because they are trying to accomplish something known as "being loose" which basically means focusing on the big shapes and ignoring the small shapes. Some people can be looser by being messier, so some people think loose means messy, and imitate. Don't. It's a trap.

I don't know why, but just doing these gesture pieces annoys me even as I'm drawing them. As if the action of sketching the poses at all is generating irritation, like producing static by rubbing a piece of amber.

That's your brain working. It's called artwork remember? If you've ever excercised on a regular schedule, you know that it starts out painful, but after a while, regular excercise feels really good. This is the same thing.

I mean, I've only been doing them for a couple of days but the ones I've done are an improvement over any of the stuff I do from imagination. But I don't think I'm learning anything from them so far - how long does it take for this gesture drawing to have an impact on the regular drawing I do?

Every drawing starts with a gesture. So sayeth Michael Mentler. So sayeth Vilippu. So sayeth Tristan Elwell. And yes, me too.

Use the same techniques you use in observational drawing in your imaginative drawing. Always. The more you do this, the more immediate the effect will be.

And should gesture drawings dig so hard into the page?

No.

Once you do the skeleton, do you draw the rest of it? The body shape, etc?

Do you want to? Do you have time? Seriously, this is still art, guys.

And is this a good way of learning the shape of the body?

It's good for learning almost anything, even things that aren't people. But I recommend people for observational drawing, because you will always know when you drew a person wrong, as opposed to say, the exact shape of the Cape of Good Hope.

I need to get some proper sketching pencils. I've been using a cheap office pencil, probably not ideal.

Pencils aren't magic. This isn't a technical shading exercise. This is really simple observational drawing. You could use a bloody finger and come out about as well.

I mean, I guess I have to revise the body shapes separately? I have problems remembering that kind of thing. Stuff like the shape of muscles in the legs, shoulders, arms... hands are a particular bother; even now, if I'm drawing the hands on a posed figure I need to check my own hands to work out which side of the hands the thumbs go on. -_-

Draw the enough difficult things, and they stop being difficult. I'm always kind of happy when I know exactly what my problem is; it means I know what to work on.

No. But there is a way that's more likely to result in a better end result, yes? One that's easier, or more accurate to life?

Is there? I've seen a lot of different types of gestures. Hell, I've gone through a lot of different styles, but I don't think there would be so many variances if they all weren't better at something. But maybe that's just a fallacy.

Seriously, though, if you find out, tell me.

edited 10th Dec '10 8:41:59 PM by Roman

Umm... am I actually being helpful? Looking back, It seems like I may have just come off as a huge know it all.

EDIT: I hadn't realised you'd just posted. I started adding this post about half an hour ago. You don't come across as a know-it-all; if anything, you just come across as exasperated. I can understand that, though.

This is because they are trying to accomplish something known as "being loose" which basically means focusing on the big shapes and ignoring the small shapes. Some people can be looser by being messier, so some people think loose means messy, and imitate. Don't. It's a trap.

See, I never would have known that. I'll avoid imitating, then.

That's your brain working. It's called artwork remember? If you've ever excercised on a regular schedule, you know that it starts out painful, but after a while, regular excercise feels really good. This is the same thing.

I guess.

Use the same techniques you use in observational drawing in your imaginative drawing. Always. The more you do this, the more immediate the effect will be.

Er... I'll be honest, I don't really have many set techniques for my observational drawing. I think the one I do have is to start by drawing the head, then work down. I don't really have any consistency for each picture (I'll draw the shapes first, or maybe the outline, or the wire frame).

I know, give me a minute, I can scan some of the gesture drawings I did last night.

Page 1◊, page 2◊.

(That one on the second page I put the X through it because I was displeased with it - I drew the back wrong (you'll notice his back is much too long and segmented, like a caterpillar - that's because I drew his backside once from the top, then when I drew the legs I went up and drew it again, not realising I'd already drawn it. -_-)

edited 11th Dec '10 11:04:55 AM by EthZee

You're doing very well. Really, I'm not bullshitting you. Just remember to have the "big idea" of a person drawn out first, and then the details later. That alone will make an improvement after you get used to it.

Then, with practice, you'll start to acquire a sort of "visual library" inside your head, which will act as a series of a poses you can easily draw from your head, and, eventually, as a series of a rules for constructing a natural looking pose anytime you want.

edited 11th Dec '10 11:14:14 AM by Roman

Okay... but please, explain "Big Idea." You mean the frame, right?

I'm talking about Gesture. The amount of things some one needs to know before there ready to start adding detail varies from person to person.

I guess for people, I think about knowing the direction the legs, chest, pelvis, arms, feet, and hands are facing, and the proportions of each, and the angle you are looking at them from. But it might be a good idea to wait off on adding detail until you feel as confident about the gesture as possible. Or not. It's your call.

By the way, have you tried blind contour drawing? If nothing else, it's pretty straight forward.

edited 11th Dec '10 2:47:47 PM by Roman

I'll admit I've not. I'll give it a try tonight. Are you sure it'll help?

It helps for understanding certain subject matter and gets you to really understand some things. If your an absolute newbie at drawig from observation it can be very helpful in showing you what it's all about, but I'll admit that it hasn't helped me as much as gesture drawing, and I haven't done it nearly as much.

I pretty much went from basic observational drawing (self portraits and such) to gesture drawing to drawing people while they did their thing at the food court.

Still the basic idea, that when you start looking is as important ad should take just as much time as drawing, is pretty invaluable, and will save you time in the long run. And there are some people I know who it was a big help to, though. Some who got good much faster than I am.

Do an experiment. Draw something from observation. I reccomend a self portrait. Then, do a BCD of what you drew. Then draw it again.

Did the Blind Contour Drawing help?

edited 11th Dec '10 6:29:52 PM by Roman

With gesture drawing, I'm pretty sure you're trying to draw the "energy" of the pose, as opposed to what it actually looks like. It sounds kinda stupid when I say it that way, but its very useful in understanding how to give a figure unity and life — usually one of the problems with even good artists who get all the details at the earlier stages is that the figures just don't carry themselves right and end up looking unnatural as a whole, so gesture drawing is a way to deal with it by forcing you to not focus on any details at all. You want the gist of it, not all the nitty-gritty a-wrinkle-in-the-skin-goes-here-and-a-shadow-is-cast-here.

Now, how to explain how to do it without just showing you is the tricky part. The teacher in art class showed us how to do it by having all of us stand up and use easels around someone posing, and we had to draw on some big-ass paper pads that where about 17x26 inches, and we didn't just fold the pages in half to make it smaller ether — it was one gesture drawing per page, big enough to fill it. I mention this, because when you're drawing like that for fifteen second and working really fast, you're literally gesturing the entire figure across the page, with your entire arm, just to get a very, very rudimentary idea of the pose.

She also never had us do the gesture drawing for more than a dozen seconds or so before telling us to use the next minute on… "wrapping" the figure, though I'm pretty sure there's another term for it. The point is, gestural drawing isn't supposed to be done in minutes, or even half minutes, but with a quick swish and squiggle with your arm.

See, if I'm going to scribble then I have to actually think to scribble. And should gesture drawings dig so hard into the page? I end up pressing the pencil down quite hard when I'm doing them, should that be happening?

No, probably not. If you want it darker and going lightly isn't cutting it, get a softer pencil or use a decent pen instead, because to me that sounds like it could make the whole thing messier than it has to be, or at least a lot more work on your end.

edited 12th Dec '10 8:05:50 AM by Dec

I did mine digitally on half a computer screen and shrunk them down.

The point is to get the whole thing down in a short time, and you can put more stress on removing details and focusing on the big stuff, so that you develop good habits for drawing longer things.

Saying "energy" doesn't help anyone. I know that you mean the forces of gravity acting on the figure, the tightness and looseness and looseness, torsion and tension in the major muscle groups and the sometimes, the weight of the major masses, but telling that to Zee isn't going to help, and trading one fancy art word for

I've done the scribble thing, and let me tell you, the power is not in the squiggles. I've done huge gestures, and the power is not in the size. The power is in how you think about it.

I've known another artist, who always did them tiny (barely larger than a dime) so it would be impossible to put to much detail in them.

There's lots and lots of ways to do anything, including gestures.

Probably the nicest thing about doing them in one line though, is it makes you focus on what your looking at. If you do them while looking at the subject, more than looking at the paper, it'll definitely make a stronger impression of what observational drawing is all about.

The problem is that doing a gesture in one line while looking more at the model than the paper, gives you a result which doesn't look much like what you are looking at. This is fine if you think gesture is just an exercise for learning some important things about movement, but is very bad if you think that every drawing should start with a gesture, so that you build good habits for drawing from imagination.

edited 12th Dec '10 11:17:31 AM by Roman

Well, I tried some Blind Contour Drawing. Just a couple.

Attempt 1◊, based on this pose.

Attempt 2◊, based on this pose.

Honestly, I don't like doing that. I don't mind 30 second Gesture Drawings because they don't take very long, but I don't think I've learnt anything from these two. I mean, I'm looking at the same thing when I'm drawing it, I'm picking the same things to draw, all that I've learned is that I have no ability to judge how far I've moved my hand when I'm not looking at it, and I already knew that.

Is it that I've not done them enough? Do I have to do tons before I'll be able to draw blind?

No, probably not. If you want it darker and going lightly isn't cutting it, get a softer pencil or use a decent pen instead, because to me that sounds like it could make the whole thing messier than it has to be, or at least a lot more work on your end.

It's not that I want to draw dark lines. It's just what happens; I tend to push the pencil down hard onto the page, it's a reflexive thing rather than intentional.

I mean... my final plan isn't to be drawing gestures all the time. I just want to learn how to draw people, so that I can draw the stuff I can think up without it looking pants.

For the 30 second gestures, I think you need to avoid drawing the outline of the pose so much. It might be better to focus on drawing the main bones...sort of like, just the curve of the spine, tilt of the shoulders and hips, lines to represent the arms and legs.

But, listen to Roman. I think he's got more experience than I do with gesture drawing. .___.

That's the thing, though - I can pretty much draw a stick figure representation of a pose. That's easy as tits. It's the outline (or rather, the shape of a person) that I don't know how to draw. That's pretty much the thing I want to learn, I was hoping gesture drawings would help with that.