I actually have a bit of a hard time remembering which sequences weren't included in the theatrical cut of RotK - I've seen the Extended Edition many more times over the years.
That said, I like most of the additions, even if some of them are a little rougher than they could be. Having Saruman die onscreen is better than the handwave in the theatrical cut, even if the execution leaves a little to be desired. I like the Mouth of Sauron sequence too, although I don't like Aragorn beheading him at the end.
There's some great additions to Faramir and Denothor's relationship, and a whole conversation between Faramir and Pippin. And I like Gandalf confronting the Witch King and having his staff broken. And I like É'owyn's dream and the Houses of Healing montage. And from Frodo and Sam's side of things I like the crowned statue, the star in Mordor, and being mistaken for orcs sequences.
The one addition I think really shouldn't be there is the Dead of Dunharrow telling Aragorn that they will come and fight, and then taking the corsair ships. It rather ruins the suspense in the theatrical cut where the last time we saw Aragorn was asking whether or not the Dead would fight, and then the next time they show up is at the Battle of the Pelennor.
And I don't much care for Gothmog having survived the charge of the Rohirrim and coming after Éowyn, only to have Aragorn and Gimli cut him down without realizing they had saved her. Seems gratuitous.
I also wouldn't miss the drinking contest between Gimli and Legolas, but the sequence has some very nice scenes between Aragorn, Gandalf, Théoden, and Éowyn intercut with it.
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” -Philip K. Dick
Ah, but then we wouldn't have the lovely cameo of Peter Jackson getting shot by Legolas after Gimli throws off his aim.
That all you got?
...Well now.
That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.
It's a naturally tough knot. If Elves' sexual nature were at all comparable to humans', then constantly reproducing immortals would quickly incur a population bomb enough to gag Malthus!
To avoid that, either a) sex & procreation must be decorrelated in some radical way for Elves, or b) Elves' sex drives & affections must be naturally ordered to match the MUCH lower reproduction rates necessary for them. It's little surprise that the devoutly Catholic Prof. Tolkien opted for b).
"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
Lost in Space
That's amazing. Great find.
Culturally, the Elves seem to regard sex, love, and marriage as more or less the same thing. If you love someone, you couple, and that coupling means you've wed. They don't believe in fancy ceremonies and, while they apparently never lose interest in sex per se, they find other things more entertaining after they've had their children.
The note about the impossibility of rape is also interesting, and Tolkien apparently changed his mind about that a couple of times.
I may be losing track of details, but are Elf children ever depicted in any published material? I can't recall it if so. They obviously must exist, but are never characterized. Hmm... there is the son of Eöl and Aredhel.
Edited by Fighteer on Dec 26th 2023 at 5:08:33 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
it also follow the idea elves have larger control of their soul to the point in a way, the physical aspect of sex and the spiritual one are one and the same, fitting for the pseydo elightment they have.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I dont think so and if anything, that kinda reflect how never really see elve children en fantasy, the idea almost feel cursed really.
Lost in Space
And, of course, it makes the rapey nature of Orcs just another aspect of their perversion from the inherently noble nature of Elves.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess
Can you elaborate on the "impossibility of rape" thing?
Optimism is a duty.
Lost in Space
Read the article behind the link that was posted earlier if you want the details. In a nutshell:
- No Elf would ever rape another Elf, nor commit adultery. They innately sense when someone is "wed" and violating that would be unthinkable.
- Any Elf who is subject to forcible sex would immediately die from the violation of their spirit.
The question of whether Eöl straight-up raped Aredhel or wooed her deceptively (for whatever difference it made) apparently bothered Tolkien.
Edited by Fighteer on Dec 26th 2023 at 5:09:30 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Maeglin sends his regards.
Elrond and Elros's childhood is covered briefly in the Silmarillion. After their settlement is attacked by the sons of Fëanor in an attempt to take the Silmaril passed down to their parents from Beren and Lúthien (who stole it from Morgoth), their mother throws it and herself into the Sea (she gets better), and they are taken in and fostered by one of Fëanor's sons, Maedhros I think, which surprisingly turns out well. He feels some contrition (finally!) and grows to love them, which is reciprocated.
The monogamy of elves extends even past the death of one partner, with only one prominent exception—Fëanor's father remarried after his mother was exhausted in spirit after giving birth to him and went to Mandos voluntarily. He resented his half-brothers, which did not help later matters at all.
Yes, well, it doesn't help matters that Maeglin is the product of that questionable union between Eöl and Aredhel, but he certainly intended rape/forcible marriage of Idril—and only technically not adultery because he was going to murder Tuor first. He's also the only Elven traitor ever, so he's an outlier in a lot of ways.
I avoided clicking that essay link on my work computer, but forgot to take my phone off wifi, so still got blocked by the NSFW firewall. 😅
Edited by HeraldAlberich on Dec 26th 2023 at 5:30:13 AM
Rape here probably refer more to physically forcing oneself.
From my version of the Silmarillion, Chapter 16 (Of Maeglin)
It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years. For though at Eöl's command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the stars or by the light of the sickle moon; or she might fare alone as she would, save that Eöl forbade her to seek the sons of Fëanor, or any others of the Noldor.
As for Maeglin and Idril, the former may have intended to kidnap the latter and with time make her forget Tuor and accept him instead.
But since Maeglin died before achieving his plans, there is nothing in that story that contradicts the essay, if he had forced himself upon Idril she would have died.
Edited by jawal on Dec 26th 2023 at 2:41:29 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Some of Tolkien's writings say that Finwë isn't just the most prominent exception of the rule that elves do not re-marry after their spouse dies, he is in fact the only exception. Some of the elves speculate that this is basically what caused all of Fëanor's problems.
Yeah, I threw in that “prominent exception” because I couldn’t remember if there were any others. This also means that the essay’s notes on how Kissing Cousins works among elves who are descended from half-siblings never really comes up in practice, since there aren’t any other than Fëanor’s two sisters and two brothers.
Edited by HeraldAlberich on Dec 27th 2023 at 1:39:12 PM
If my Googling is correct, technically Aragorn and Arwen are cousins many times removed?
But like, so many times that they may as well not be.
Edited by diddyknux on Dec 27th 2023 at 12:45:47 PM
Yes, first cousins many times removed. Arwen is Elrond's daughter, and Aragorn is descended in direct line from Elrond's brother Elros, who chose to be a Man rather than an Elf and founded the kingdom of Númenor.
...Does that make movie-Elrond's initial disapproving of Arwen's choice to live a mortal life weird, since his brother did the same? Or does "Live as a man" not LITERALLY mean "become a mortal man" in Elros's case?
Edited by diddyknux on Dec 27th 2023 at 12:55:12 PM
No, he totally became a Man, though because of his Elven heritage he lived several hundred years—but that was thousands of years before the time of LOTR. This is why the descendants of Númenor are all long-lived, though decreasingly so over the ages; Aragorn was young at 87. Aragorn and Arwen's children got a fresh shot of Elven bloodline and increased their lifespan again. (It doesn't hurt that Elros and Elrond's great-great grandmother was Melian, an angelic Maia.)
I'm not sure what Elrond thought of his brother's choice to sunder their fates, or how he came to terms with it over the millennia, but I don't think the movie was stretching things too much to consider him dismayed to lose his daughter too. In the book, he makes it an Engagement Challenge—though he loves Aragorn dearly as a foster son, he will not forsake his daughter's Elvishness for anyone less than the King of the restored realms descended from Númenor. (After all, in any other scenario he's sailing West but leaving her behind in a Middle-earth dominated by Sauron.) So that's Aragorn's personal motivation to see Sauron overthrown, as if he needed one, so he can claim his birthright.
Edited by HeraldAlberich on Dec 27th 2023 at 2:25:54 PM
Lost in Space
Becoming mortal is a genuine sacrifice for Elves, since their spirits go to Mandos after the death of their bodies and are eventually reincarnated. Luthien and Arwen are the only two to share the fate of Men and become forever lost to their kin.
I don’t blame Elrond for being reluctant. In the books, though, he’s resigned himself to it. Aragorn is the one who refuses to wed Arwen until he’s won the war.
Edited by Fighteer on Dec 27th 2023 at 2:59:11 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Say rather that Lúthien is the only full-blooded Elf (well, Elf/Maia) to be granted the Gift of Men; all others are given the choice because they're her descendants (or the also half-Elven Eärendil). And it's a one-way decision; Arwen still gets to choose Manhood even after living hundreds of years, and even though her father and grandparents chose otherwise, but none of Elros's descendants could ever become immortal. (Some of them tried very hard.)
In something of an Equivalent Exchange (I'm not using the trope right, I know), only one Man was ever granted immortality, Tuor to stay with Idril. Their son Eärendil was also given the choice as a half-Elf, but chose with his wife Elwing (Lúthien's granddaughter) to stay among the Elves. Their children were Elrond and Elros.
So, actually, I suppose, only three people who could have chosen Elvendom opted for the Gift of Men instead: Lúthien, Elros, and Arwen.
As for the Engagement Challenge, I suppose it's a mutual decision. Elrond does set the condition when Aragorn is a young man, having just met Arwen and fallen head over heels for her, and Aragorn still holds himself to it decades later, after he met Arwen again in Lorien and finally had his feelings reciprocated.
Edited by HeraldAlberich on Dec 27th 2023 at 4:05:56 AM
As others have mentioned, young Elrond, young Elros, and Dior & Nimloth's ill-fated children are spoken of without being really strongly depicted. Also, Sam Gamgee's eldest child Elanor is described as the spitting image of an Elf-child at her relative age ... which is about as close as we get to a depiction of the latter.
Edited by Jhimmibhob on Dec 27th 2023 at 9:17:15 AM
"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
𐀀𐀩𐀯𐀂𐀰𐀅𐀡𐀄
Didn't Elrond's sons also choose the Gift of Man or is that Word of Dante ?
Secret Signature
Elladan and Elrohir remained in Middle-earth after the War of the Ring, and some fans interpreted this as them choosing to be men.
Tolkien himself never said that.
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
According to Deadline
, an author named Polychron opened up a $250 million lawsuit in 2017 against the Tolkien Estate (and Amazon Studios). Polychron claimed his fan sequel, The Fellowship of the King, was being infringed by them for Amazon's The Rings of Power, with the Tolkien Estate's lawyers claiming Polychron considered their own work “the pitch-perfect sequel to The Lord of the Rings".
Unsurprisingly, not only was the case thrown out this month, but the judge demanded that Polychron destroy all of their existing digital and physical copies of their fan literature (including their planned sequels).
Deadline later reminds people that "under existing copyright laws, Tolkien’s work will enter the public domain in the US on Jan. 1, 2044 – 95 years after his first work was published."
Edited by XMenMutant22 on Dec 19th 2023 at 6:03:58 AM