Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

HOW.

Aside from the fact that the Iron Islanders are a bunch of a-holes with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, with a pathetic king that makes Lord Frey look charismatic, an Obviously Evil uncle who only has a role because he happened upon a MacGuffin that seriously looks like a Diabolus ex Machina, and some guy that escaped from a Vikings fanfic about bulky men and sweaty balls oozing testosterone while the wind gushes between his ears?

When the only thing remotely interesting about your side is a religion where you almost drown people (and still, Greyjoy #4 is still as cliché a Fundamentalist as there ever was)...

Dorne is not much better when it comes to avoiding clichés in the books, but at least their side is sympathetic (somewhat) and they bring racial diversity to the setting. If there was no occurrence of Rape, Pillage, and Burn in Westeros, then the Greyjoys could be a little bit interesting, but honestly, I feel that their one and only role in the books was for Martin to make sure that the Starks were not only losing the war, but got epically screwed.

Seriously, every time they are mentioned outside from the Iron Islands, is by people who mention how no one gives two craps about them as long as the coasts are defended. They are like Westeros' herpes - an annoyance that you can easily prevent as long as you are careful.

edited 29th Mar '15 3:22:43 PM by Julep

Shut your whore mouth, Victarion is amazing and a Head of the Dragon. Confirmed like Cleganebowl.

edited 29th Mar '15 10:28:27 PM by Bonerfart

I've never been a fan of the Iron Islands, they feel really plot point-y, aren't very interesting while doing it, and raise the question of why in eight thousand years the other powers couldn't agree to wipe them out to a man. The viking lasted about an equal time from Aegon's Conquest to the present and they did things other than raid like farming and long distance trading (including the middle east).

In a series with utterly naive Ned Stark, the psychotically incompetent Joffery Baratheon, and walking Dunning Kruger effect Cersie Lannister, Balon Greyjoy still managed to have the worst plan in the entire series.

edited 30th Mar '15 2:15:29 AM by BigMadDraco

The thing is, there is not a single value to admire among the Iron Islanders. They aren't smart, they aren't honorable, they aren't powerful, they aren't brave... at least, other evil sides act as Foils to more honourable counterparts (Boltons to Starks, Freys to Tullys), but since there isn't a single Iron Islander that isn't either completely powerless or a total jerk, it falls completely flat.

I just wished Euron and Victarion were killed offscreen by the dragons, so at least it would become a funny "Shaggy Dog" Story in retrospect.

It says something when Theon is by far the least awful of the Iron Born we've seen. And he murdered two children just to cover up that he couldn't murder two other children.

My problem with the Iron Born is the same as my problem with the Dothraki, they feel like caricatures of cultures. The Iron Born are the Vikings stripped of everything that made them a functional society namely trade, non-Vikings that were still an actual part of society, and an agricultural base. The Dothraki are the Mongols stripped of everything that made them powerful conquerors namely organization, cultural pluralism, and spurs.

edited 30th Mar '15 3:49:25 AM by BigMadDraco

Speaking of caricatures of cultures, how's about them Ghiscari?

Pretty sure Asha or the Reader are the best Ironborn. Not that I really care about the Ironborn.

edited 30th Mar '15 7:10:57 AM by byakugan0889

What are the Ghiscari supposed to be? They're one of the cultures I couldn't quite place.

Aren't the Ghiscari like pre-Hellenised Egypt?

As the Narm page puts it,

edited 30th Mar '15 10:32:12 PM by Bonerfart

Yeah, there is Asha. Who still leads a bunch of Ironborn engaged in Rape, Pillage, and Burn on coastal cities.

Fishing villages. Also how is this much different to any other feudal lord in Westeros who does much of the same?

It's not. It's just that among the Ironborn, there isn't a single character that does not do it.

In all other kingdoms you have morally positive characters, but not here. They all range from big jerks to absolute a-holes.

If Victarion turns out to be one of the three heads of the dragon, I'm going to burn my copy of A Dance with Dragons.

I hate Victarion.

I seriously doubt Victarion is going to serve any such role. Guy's a caricature, and most likely Euron's Unwitting Pawn. He's good for a few chapters, but it wouldn't make any sense for him to be a main player.

Liking Victarion is a huge Guilty Pleasure for me.

Victarion is comically evil, but hasn't committed anything particularly heinous in the setup - yet. So I can understand that feeling.

Murdering his wife for being raped isn't heinous?

Ah well, I forgot about that part. Then again, I tended to skip entire pages when it was about the Ironborn.

He also kills male sex slaves out of homophobia.

And he does it all because them's The Rules and he doesn't have the intelligence or imagination or self-awareness to question it.

I love him.

Ah, true, now I remember: it's not that he does not make anything heinous, but he is not conscious that what he does is heinous. Unlike, say, the Mountain, Tywin Lannister, or Ramsay Bolton.

I understand why people hate him but I think Victarion's over the top villainy is entertaining.

Y'know what? I actually quite liked him until some scenes in Dw D. After that, I think he's basically a very willful blockhead who has been consistently out-manoeuvred militarily and politically, and will continue along that path. He's good at killing stuff, though.