Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

Thought it was a shame that he crowdsourced the name. I liked that being an invention of his own sick imagination.

And I'd never noticed how appropriate the name was, either. We've got a widow wailing by the end of the very same episode.

I see someone's already picked up on the fact that Myrcella would have a claim to the throne under Dornish law. Sharp one.

edited 16th Apr '14 5:51:17 AM by johnnye

To people who have read the books: Just answer me this yes or no... is there going to be a lengthy period of Tyrion trying to Clear My Name?

Something interesting someone commented on over at Westeros- as far as they recalled, Cersei doesn't think about ordering the deaths of Robert's bastards in her POV chapters. Is this correct?- I think so. It kind of stands out because in the books Cersei exults in all these petty ways of ensuring she wouldn't be impregnated by Robert. If she ordered a massacre of his girlfriends, she'd probably mention it in her POV.

Janos Slynt confesses to Tyrion in a way that seems to implicate Cersei, but the real "evidence" seems to be just Varys "confirming" Tyrion's suspicions. Note that similarly, Cersei never thinks in her POV about sending Mandon Moore to assassinate Tyrion, but he thinks she did so (and I believe Varys "confirms" that as well).

So, I think besides the show's overall presentation of Cersei it kind of makes sense to clearly assign blame on those acts, in order to avoid audience confusion over guilt (in both cases- or at least the Mandon Moore one- Tyrion thinks Cersei did it, but she probably didn't).

RE Dany, I just don't see where the idea that she's whitewashed in the show comes from. The show definitely conveys her ego and borderline megalomania (in fact she exhibits almost nothing but that in the second season of the show), and the previews for this season also indicate a focus on the problems with how she approaches changing societies for the better (that flower conversation with Daario indicated that she knows nothing about Meereen, despite planning on conquering it).

I mean yeah, there seem to be a rather large number of Unsullied viewers who take her at face value and think she can do no wrong, but there's also at least some readers (not to mention a certain troper) who think the same thing, just like there's plenty of readers who think Tyrion is a great guy and hate Sansa for not wanting to have sex with him.

Now as for Stannis, I find that he has a rather misaimed reader fandom, so I haven't had a problem with his presentation up until now- but last episode did strike me as a really wasted opportunity to convey Stannis' complexity and also made me worry somewhat about his presentation later in the season. Because while I like the idea of Stannis as this boring bureaucrat who bought into Mel's promises because of a desperation to feel validated- because I see this as an aspect of Stannis' character. However, we really need some more focus on Stannis' dedication to Justice (for good or ill).

I think a lot of hate for the show comes because one of the producers commented that Stannis would probably make a terrible king. Thing is, he probably would to be honest, and both the sympathetic Renly of the show and the unsympathetic one of the books would probably make for a more popular and successful king. Stannis' dedication to Justice is admirable, but there are times he wants to follow it in ways that are not necessarily admirable and if he went through with them, would make him really unpopular (ie executing everyone who ever followed a monarch besides himself). In contrast, Renly knows how to win his subjects' affection and has good advisers and commanders on his side.

I don't really recall one in the books.

edited 16th Apr '14 7:10:13 AM by Hodor

Joff didn't come up with Widow's Wail in the books, either. The crowd sourcing scene was very faithful.

edited 16th Apr '14 7:14:13 AM by kalel94

Dany's whitewashing comes for her being presented as the white savior to all the slaves/brown people who are only free through her. Her last scene in Mysha was terrible and reeked of Christian mission trips and then the whitest person on a show with about 3 characters of color who speak/exist at a time crowd surfs all the brown slaves she liberates.

If the show made more mention of Dany relating to the slaves from her being sold, it may seem more of Dany fighting injustice than Dany just being the big good to all the backwards brown cities.

because they don't trust the brown people

edited 16th Apr '14 7:31:44 AM by byakugan0889

I guess I read that scene somewhat "ironically"- as an indication of how Dany sees herself, and the scene of all the slaves calling her mother (in various languages) is in the book too.

The fact that the people "cast" as the slaves are all fairly dark skinned has a lot to do with the scene being filmed in Morocco.

I mean yeah, it definitely has a huge amount of Unfortunate Implications, but I don't think it was meant to unambiguously praiseworthy (iirc Dany's advisers have somewhat nervous looks).

edited 16th Apr '14 7:26:43 AM by Hodor

More because they're worried about it going to Dany's head.

Define "lengthy".

If it was actually meant to be a critique of Dany, it would have been framed differently, i.e. not with the soaring, uplifting score and the overhead shot.

I think that blaming Show!Sansa is a bit harsh. I think she is getting smarter and smarter with time, and starts to see people for what they really are, instead of what they look like - like Tyrion. Of course, her true training has not begun yet.

The problem is that she is a POV character in the books, while she is secondary in many scenes of the show, which makes it harder to show the evolution of the characters. Only subtle hints can work. It's hard not to be overwhelmed by all the strong personas in King's Landing when you are supposed to be cold and distant, while having no power at all on anyone.

Speaking of hints, I absolutely loved to see how Tommen reacted to the dwarves show. First he laughed, and then he saw how terrible it was for his beloved uncle, and immediately stopped. The kid is sweet. As a whole, last ep was full of heartwarming moments, mostly involving Tyrion - whether it is Bronn's gentle tap on the shoulder, or him spilling wine so Jaime stops feeling too bad. True, this may lead to some imbalance, but who else in KL deserves to be treated nicely ?

As for Bronn, I think he "betrayed" Tyrion, but not for money. My guess is that he met Cersei's or Tywin's guards on the way, and thought that it was better for Tyrion to think that she was gone, instead of being tortured in the Hand's tower. Or maybe he met Littlefinger ? He is supposed to be near the harbor at that time...

I thought about LF being the one who brought Shae back, but as far as I remember he knows nothing about her.

I guess I don't want to think of the showrunners as racist. Also, given that I'm honestly still not sure whether the books are playing the white savior thing straight or not (yeah, things fall apart for Dany, but its mostly because of bad people plotting against her), and so having the scene struck me as a moment faithful to the books in which perhaps the critique was too subtle.

Speaking of Tommen(), I wonder how his character arc will play out now that he is a teenager instead of a 9-year-old. I just can't imagine this Tommen proclaiming that he's going to outlaw beets or being that much of a puppet in general. His interactions/ marriage with Margaery are going to feel a lot more squicky too.

edited 16th Apr '14 10:10:52 AM by LogoP

So....uh...no, I haven't read the books. >.>

Thread title, yo!!

Eh, I can avoid spoilers. You would not BELIEVE how hard it was to get to Winter Soldier unscathed.

Regarding what Hodor said...I don't believe the show runners are intentionally racist. It's possible to use racist imagery or themes unintentionally or without thinkng of it. The potential 'white savior' implications are probably an example as more a "Oh, we didn't think that one through."

Define "lengthy".

I don't know, two full episodes or so of it being a major plot point? Yes, of course given that it's a book it'd be impossible to say how many episodes it would be, but if it's a major plot point for the rest of the season, I'd like to know.

edited 16th Apr '14 11:22:39 AM by Larkmarn

Yes it's a major plot point that the king died, and Tyrion looks to have done it. They will spend more than 2 episodes on that...

I could go into greater detail on that, but there's no reason to since you just wanted a yes/no answer.

edited 16th Apr '14 12:01:05 PM by Swish

x7

Well they will probably make Tommen mature a bit, but he can still behave childishly. And the age difference with Margaery will still be obviously here, she already looks much older than Joffrey.

I don't even know while I put this under a spoiler tag, the entire world probably already knows about it.

As for the racism, I honestly don't know. They missed a perfectly good opportunity to hire an Arab actor to play Oberyn (the first time we meet the Dornishmen they really look much more Moor than Spanish)...but his paramour is half-Indian. My guess is that they are rather faithful to the original story - Dany is also Dany in the books, even though she is supposed to have a dark tan, she is still "white".

Also, Dany's luck is supposed to leave her for a while if I recall, she is going to look much less like a savior.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a more active/less of a puppet Tommen. Or one with a better understanding of what's going on around him. Show!Tommen is definitely not a little kid by book standards.

Regarding the (preceived) racism, I honestly can't see it when it comes to the series. I believe it was a clear case of (unavoidable) Pragmatic Adaptation.

I mean, yes, the picture of Dany being lifted by all those dark-skinned slaves was unfortunate but what where the showrunners supposed to do? The shootings for Dany's arc take place in Morocco. Most of the extras are going to be, by virtue of demographics, dark-skinned. And you can't expect them to hire white extras from across the Mediterranean just to avoid Unfortunate Implications.

When it comes to the books, on the other hand, i'd say there are definitely some unfortunate parts. I'm not talking about Dany's arc though. Think the Summer Islands and their culture.

edited 16th Apr '14 12:40:56 PM by LogoP

The showrunnes should've cut that scene altogether. Or re-worked so it wasn't immediately obvious that Dany was a Mighty Whitey.

The worst thing about that scene was that there was crowd-surfing and it was super-cheesy. Like I literally cringed as did some of the people who haven't even read the books so I realized that it wasn't just a book-reader thing.

I don't remember anything about the Summer Islands. What was wrong about that?

edited 16th Apr '14 1:31:45 PM by MadSkillz

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I haven't read the books and the scene would've been Narm-worthy even if everyone there was whiter than the driven snow. Making them all brown while lifting up the white-as-all-hell Dany brings it to Unfortunate Implications.

In the books, Dany just rides through the slaves on her white mare rather than crowd-surfs.

So one thing I read for next episode is that they're going to have Jaime force himself on Cersei.