The Order of the Stick

It's generally accepted just about everywhere, now. "Zhe" doesn't appear in any dictionary that I've ever heard of.

Surely from context you can tell when "they" is singular.

There are times it can get difficult. I've written a book with singular "they" and I actually did have a few hiccups, but a lot of it is just adapting to it.

Sure. It just annoys me because I'm a pedant.

As I said, I'll use it. I won't complain about it in front of someone who wants me to use it. I'm just grumbling that I wish language had evolved in a slightly different direction.

edited 23rd May '18 8:51:30 AM by Discar

In the topic of this conversation, is there a preference for how trope entries refer to vaarsuvius? I often s/he and hir and such. When I make entries I try to avoid gender specific pronouns to avoid the late altogether but I don't know if there's any agreed upon consensus.

S/he is thought to be real bad these days, I think?

Is it? I didn't know.

"S/he" is loathed in most LGBT+ circles that I'm active in, because of the inherent binaristic "he or she" framing.

I'm honestly thinking in the more pragmatic sense of it makes an entry needlessly complicated to read

We already have a singular version of a plural pronoun: singular 'you'.

That is an issue. I mean, when a character blatantly has no stated gender (as Japan is very very wont to do, and as is the case with V) and you don't want to use They, what do you refer to them as.

I just don't like the concept of Ambiguous Gender honestly. It stirs up a massive hornets nest. If it serves a purpose, then ok, but if there's no real reason for it beyond ha ha, you don't know and I'm not telling then no. Don't do it.

edited 23rd May '18 10:48:02 AM by HandsomeRob

Aye, S/he isn't popular in MOGAI circles. It is also rememnicant of the horrible slur "She/he"

For what it's worth, the entry that sparked the question was the fourth one for OotS in Entertainingly Wrong

If it's good enough for Shakespeare...

I hate "they" as a pronoun for the same reason: the fact that it's plural is really awkward-sounding. "Alex just got back from the store and they picked up a carton of milk." The grammar pedant in me cringes at that sentence.

But, as noted, it's become the commonly-accepted terminology. Other proposals like "xie" just look like weird alien verbage and, as noted, "s/he" implies that gender must definitively be a binary choice. "They" is the least shitty of the options available at this time.

So, I use it. I just do it begrudgingly.

It ain't plural to hicks like me! The plural of "you" is "y'all". ^.^

edited 23rd May '18 11:31:43 AM by TobiasDrake

I'm gonna go ahead and say that grumbling about how showing people basic respect sucks because it angers your inner grammar pedant is not a great look.

Like, "they" and "xe" aren't interchangeable. They mean different things to different people. The idea that folks only use the former because it "caught on" and not because it fits is kinda insulting, and frankly wishing someone had chosen a different pronoun because it'd make your life easier is, like. Yeah.

Not great.

As long as no one is grumbling about to anyone who actually does so, I don't see it why it matters. Some things just rub you the wrong way. It seems like everyone here acknowledges that whatever nagging in their head isn't as important as calling people what they want.

edited 23rd May '18 11:52:40 AM by LSBK

Grammar's not real. We made it up.

^^^^ ...I see no problem with that, though? It's not like he's actually disrespecting anyone.

edited 23rd May '18 11:54:44 AM by Arha

The end-goal of LGBT representation is to become normalized in our society. To no longer be seen as some deviation from the "standard", but instead become part of the standard. To eliminate the idea that not being LGBT is a default state.

Part of that normalization means that your chosen verbage gets to join the greater conversation about how much English sucks as a language.

edited 23rd May '18 11:57:34 AM by TobiasDrake

Frankly I think people who use gender-neutral pronouns already have enough shit to put up with without also always hearing about how grammatically incorrect it is and how much it annoys people. "They" is already an accepted pronoun for individuals in many contexts where gender is irrelevant or ambiguous ("my friend is coming over" "what time will they arrive?"). So I can't help but grit my teeth every time I hear cis people talk about how much they "begrudge" using it when it comes to non-binary people.

I've seen nb folks grumble about the term (as at the end of the day, some people liked xie more), but there is always the difference between grumbling about things about you, and grumbling about things about someone else.

I was going to keep arguing about this but on second thought it'd probably be better to just cut this conversation short, wouldn't it? This thread is definitely not about LGBT issues or grammatical pedantry.

By the way, I've been wondering something somewhat more on topic. The gods actually do have set levels and template and stuff, right? So they have a concrete level of ability. There's also no level cap. So what I'm wondering is, is it mechanically possible for a cleric to become more powerful than the god they worship? When I was rereading the comic^note People were right about Durkon not even being able to stall in regards to Roy's name, they talked about how mortals can't kill gods and it made me wonder about the above.

edited 23rd May '18 12:07:53 PM by Arha

I've read somewhere that the Gods are level 60, but I don't know if that's here. Either way, if it is true, might be functionally impossible for a mortal to get to that level if my (bare) understandings of the mechanics of leveling up are correct.