The Order of the Stick

There are at least three frost giant clerics present, though, and it's pretty safe to bet that at least one of them is going to be pretty high-level. He could probably wreck the Mechane with one spell if he chose wisely. A sudden demise for the airship is not out of the realm of possibility.

Haley ‘s little lesson about shell cons came in handy this month!

I called a whodunnit plot development in another story because of it. Thanks, Haley!

Greggs do burritos now?

I picked the wrong year to move to Ireland :'(

um.

what?

I know, right? It just seems wrong.

Yep. Shell games are great because they're one of the easiest cons to get people to fall for, narratively speaking. People love choices. It's so easy to get them to accept the premise of one off-hand because they get so busy trying to analyze which is the "right" one that they never even stop to consider the validity of the thing.

There's a Buddhist principle called mu. It's based on a word in a few East Asian languages including Chinese that translates roughly to nothingness, absence, being without, etc. It's the answer to a question that has no answer, a question where the only correct answer is to unask the question, because there can be no correct answer when the question itself is wrong.

Shell games operate entirely on this premise: tricking people into answering a question that has no answer because it's flawed on the very premise the question is asked upon.

Whodunnit mysteries operate on similar principles. The trick is to get people to consider the suspects presented to them, to spend time analyzing and observing and investigating these people to determine which one is the killer. When the answer, generally, is none of them but someone else entirely who people exclude from consideration as a matter of course. The killer's identity is concealed by tricking the players into accepting a premise that excludes the killer by design.

That's exactly how The Butler Didit became a trope despite there being very few actual mystery novels in which the butler, specifically, actually did it.

A similar ploy is used in Broadchurch to conceal the identity of the killer.

So, any thoughts on what Thyrm or whatever his name is gets out of this?

We know so little of Frost Giants that I cannot imagine a single thing that's been established and could indicate it. I'm guessing we'll get a Motive Rant or something once the Mechane either dumps the Order and flees or is destroyed.

It could be as simple as "he gets to be a full god if the world gets remade" but if it was that simple, he had no reason to admit that at the vote.

It's got to be something that ties into either the A or B plots. Otherwise he's a glorified filler arc.

Simply having a benefit if the world gets remade isn't enough of a connection to answer the question: narratively, why does this matter? What makes this anything other than a pointless time-waster? From what we know now, Thrym has no connection to any of the protagonists, no connection to the Dwarven Lands, no connection to the A-Plot of Xykon and Redcloak's scheme, nothing that actually justifies including him in the narrative.

Now, Rich is too good of a writer to build up all this anticipation and then go, "And now for something completely different!" and spend 150 strips on the Order getting Trapped by Mountain Lions. Whatever Thrym's nondisclosed reasons are, it has to be something that connects him to the major events going on.

Further, the only reason for Thrym to withhold his rationale from the audience is because it's meant to be a shocking reveal down the line. "Hel bribed me," isn't much of a reveal, especially when we already saw at the Godsmoot itself that she was bribing demigods.

edited 27th Oct '16 3:28:06 PM by TobiasDrake

The Draketooths are descended from Thrym

Honestly for the most part I was just figuring that Thrym was Evil and supporting the end of the world was an Evil kind of thing to do. And likewise that either frost giants were Evil as a whole or at best, it was a kobbold or goblin type situation where the racial god of the species is Evil-aligned even if the worshipers themselves aren't all Evil.

And I hadn't really thought there was a mystery being suggested by his comment at the Godmoot- I just thought that "my reasons are my own" was a curt statement that he didn't feel the need to share a complicated statement of motives.

Edit- In terms of a more serious explanation, I vaguely had this idea that it could have something to do with Loki and his lineage. So like the Northern Pantheon are a mixture of Norse Mythology (not always consistent in itself) and Marvel comics. I know Loki is supposed to be a giant in the original mythology but not sure whether that was a frost giant or fire giant. I do know that he had a fire association, which carries over into OOTS, but here he's at least apparently the actual biological son of Odin, which I guess is from Marvel comics, since I know in the MCU that he's a frost giant.

Since we know in OOTS that Hel is Loki's daughter as per the mythology, it leads me to think that OOTS is still using the idea from the original that Loki is the father (mother?) of monsters, so he might also be related to Fenrir as well as Thrym.

edited 28th Oct '16 7:51:07 AM by Hodor2

I would agree with that reading of Thrym if this ambush never happened. A lot of species are Evil, but it'd be a waste of narrative if the Order was suddenly set upon by, like, an army of kobolds who really want the world to end because they're Evil but are unrelated to anything important.

For Thrym to warrant this sidetrack, he needs to have something to add to the story that's actually worth adding.

edited 28th Oct '16 7:52:48 AM by TobiasDrake

Does he? I don't think every obstacle needs a deep backstory. More appropriate would be to question the 'My reasons are my own' thing, but I don't remember if that was him.

I don't really see how just being evil justifies wanting to world to end.

He doesn't need a deep backstory, just something that justifies being present in the story at this stage of the game. Rich is too good of a writer to do something so time-wastingly stupid as to have the Order Trapped by Mountain Lions for the next 150 strips when we're so close to the climax.

Narratively, the question of this ambush is, why is this happening and why should I care? What about this Frost Giant ambush makes it anything other than a stupid filler sequence that would improve the story immensely by being removed?

The answer is undoubtedly in Thrym's secret motives.

edited 28th Oct '16 8:17:10 AM by TobiasDrake

Oooor it doesn't matter what the attack is because its purpose is only to achieve another purpose, such as sparking a conflict with the crew of the Mechane. The attack itself doesn't necessarily mean much. An ally of Hel is getting in the way of thwarting Hel's plans.

Like, remember that sequence in ROTJ where the Rebels were ambushed by Ewoks and then the Ewoks were going to eat them but C-3PO was their god so they didn't, and then they recruited the Ewoks to fight the Stormtroopers and with their help were able to turn the tide of the battle?

Imagine that sequence without the latter part. After they're released from the Ewoks, they just leave. The Ewoks are never seen again. Would that not feel like a completely pointless waste of time?

There are some writers who I wouldn't put it past them to just throw in pointless bullshit for no reason and make no effort to justify it narratively. Rich isn't one of them.

You say that like it'd be any better. The Mechane conflict is its own self-contained subplot that only impacts the Order or the central story in the sense that they're providing them with a ride. Nobody actually cares about the drama of Andi and Bandana in its own right. Is anyone really that concerned about what their relationship is going to be like after they eventually drop off the Order and leave? They're tertiary characters at best.

Like Thrym, the mutiny subplot only has value insofar as it affects the central story. Right now, the Order's in a race against time with an ambiguous endpoint. Getting delayed by something like losing the Mechane means nothing because there's no clear indication of how it would actually impact their ability to arrive where and when they need to.

They will arrive at the Dwarven Lands whenever the plot demands that they do. If they crash, they will arrive when the plot dictates. If they continue unimpeded, they will also arrive when the plot dictates. Delaying their transit has no more impact on the story than being randomly attacked by stupid monsters does. It's just another means by which they could be Trapped by Mountain Lions.

Which is again why Thrym must be related, in some way, to either the A or B plot.

edited 28th Oct '16 8:22:04 AM by TobiasDrake

This isn't really worth arguing about to me. It's possible you're right. It could lead to its own subplot about frost giants. I personally don't actually have a strong opinion about what way this is going to go, only that it doesn't have to lead to that kind of thing and if it does the 'my reasons are my own' line was much more important or at least earlier foreshadowing for it anyway.

edited 28th Oct '16 8:26:24 AM by Arha

Maybe it's a size-ism thing.

Giants being bigots about dwarves or something.

@Tobias- I see where you are coming from. To clarify, I think it is apparent that Thrym wants the world to end (for whatever reasons) and consequently basically ordered all frost giants to do whatever they could to stop anyone seeking to prevent that outcome.

So in that sense, I'm not sure how important Thrym's motivation is, nor that of the individual frost giants, because what you have is basically worshipers doing something because their deity told them to. It wouldn't change the calculation if Thrym had good or bad motives, because frost giant-kind would still be following his orders regardless.

And like more broadly, you can pretty much imagine any deity Good, Neutral, or Evil supporting an outcome and similarly organizing their followers to enforce this end.

You could. But going back to the kobold thing, just because the God of Kobolds might tell all the kobolds to try and stop people from preventing the end of the world, that wouldn't make the Order being trapped by a bunch of kobolds worthy of taking up valuable space in the story. It's The Law of Conservation of Detail. Every detail should be important.

"An evil god wants his followers to stop people from interfering with the apocalypse!" is, on its own merits, only worthy of a footnote. A throwaway line about how evil gods are rallying forces and the like. It's not something that needs to be shown unless it actually contributes to the story being told in some way.

The issue isn't about how much sense it makes from a Watsonian perspective, but whether or not it offers anything that merits the consumption of precious screentime on a Doylist level. Consider the Empire of Blood. As much as people complained about that arc, it provided resolution to the character plots of two major cast members. It gave us a final sendoff for the comic's most recurring secondary villain. And, of course, it gave us Durkula, setting the stage for the next arc.

There was a lot more to it than simply, "The Order is sidetracked by these stupid assholes who nobody cares about." Thrym may not be the next Tarquin, mind, but if he's going to be an active force in the plot, then he's got to have something that upgrades him from "Pointless side encounter" to "legitimate narrative component".

Since Tiamat likely voted Yes, there probably is an army of kobbolds somewhere screwing with some other group of adventurers.

edited 28th Oct '16 9:03:42 AM by Hodor2

Well, if I were to take a wild guess, I'd say that Thyrm knows something about the rifts that even the other gods don't and stands to gain from the world within being released.

edited 28th Oct '16 9:46:01 AM by Kayeka