Headscratchers / Persona

• In all the Persona games where it's a thing, how exactly does giving the correct answer that you already knew to a question increase your knowledge? Yes, I know I'm being pedantic here, but I'm just curious how this is meant to work from an in-universe point of view. Surely not knowing the answer then learning it afterwards would increase knowledge, not getting the question right.
  • Through repetition comes perfection. Getting the answer wrong and learning from it would increase knowledge; but showing you know it and mastery of the knowledge is proof of intellectual increasement.
• Why does everyone slavishly defer to the MC in this game? There's no reason at all. In Persona 3 the MC is a badass and the only one who can change Personas, in Persona 4 the MC started the group AND the only one who can switch Personas, but in the first one the MC has the least reason to be considered the leader. The MC never has any social interactions except for with bosses. Masao with his drive to save Maki OR Nanjo with his obnoxious "smartness" that is only apparent AFTER the fact are both seemingly more reasonable leaders. So why is the MC leader in Persona 1?
  • I guess you can just assume that the MC already established all his relationships with people, so you don't really see HOW he got to be leader. You hear mentions of the team organizing Sports Day before the plot sets off, so maybe he's done stuff like that before.
  • If memory serves, Elly mentions in the Snow Queen Quest that at best, they were just associates more than actual friends, so it could've built up over time. Besides, being a faceless mime of sorts, MC fits as the leader because as the player, you would listen to both sides of a given story and make a good judgment, rather than make a crude choice that seems right (Kei) or listen to your emotions without thought (Masao).
  • It's also explained in game that he is the most sensible and calm member of the group. Nanjo even remarks how he can remain calm and play in the arcade while Mikage-Cho is under attack.

• Okay, how does the original Persona continuity fit? The presence of Tamaki and the Kuzunoha Detective Agency implies that it exists somewhere along the same split from Shin Megami Tensei: If... as Devil Summoner, but there's two problems with this:
  • In the first Persona game, everyone seems to be absolutely shocked by the existence of demons... but it's established in If... and Devil Summoner that the Karukozaka incident led to a greater awareness of the existence of demons, allowing Thorman to be stopped before his nuclear plot, rather than after. If people aren't more aware of Demons, we get the main Shin Megami Tensei timeline instead.
  • Technology; in the Persona games; we never see any signs of COMPs, GUMPs, Terminals, Cyberspace, or any of the other things that should exist if it branches off of If... and Devil Summoner.
    • Actually, we do. In Innocent Sin, Tamaki is seen holding a GUMP in one scene.
  • I think that Persona is separate from the other Megaten continuities, which is why people are shocked by the existence of demons in the first Persona, and why none of the characters bother with devil summoning programs. Also, I think that Persona 2 (Innocent Sin and Eternal Punishment) forms a separate continuity from the first Persona, and I know that Persona 3 and Persona 4 form a separate continuity from the first and second titles.
    • Nope. Persona 2 is a pair of semi-direct sequels to the original. Some characters from the first return, and later on in Eternal Punishment, the plot is tied in more fully. As well, Tamaki/Tammy from the Persona series is definitely the same as the female If... main — not only does Word of God say it, but in the original Persona, she's the only character who seems to have any idea about demons, so it can't be totally divorced from the other continuities, unless we take it as a particularly elaborate Mythology Gag. Which isn't out of the question — the original Persona was basically a re-imagining of If... — the Persona system is a more fleshed-out version of If...'s Guardian system. As well, in both, there's a semi-secret character who takes special steps, including actively rejecting all other characters you could recruit in their place to join, and they even look similar (Reiji for Persona, and Akira for If...). As well, they also both have an extra-secret character tied with a more difficult second quest. And in Persona, the plot of that second quest is a Trapped in Another World story applying to an entire school, while this was the main plot in If.... ... Maybe we should just relabel the original Persona a Mythology Gag in its entirety.
    • Additionally, Word of God seems to also at least imply that Persona 3 and 4 take place in the same continuity as 1 and 2; they've mentioned that the blue butterflies that show up in a few of the cutscenes in P3, as well as at the save points in P4, are actually supposed to represent Philemon looking over our protagonists. Additionally, the Kirijo Group is explicitly stated by Mitsuru's father to be an offshoot of the Nanjo Group (the corporation that Kei/Nate is heir to).
    • Don't forget that two most recent entries in the Devil Summoner series have very explicit ties to the main Shin Megami Tensei games, so if Devil Summoner and Persona are on the same timeline... yea, it's enough to make your head hurt.
    • Well, Devil Summoner isn't mutually exclusive with Shin Megami Tensei. In the Devil Summoner continuity, the first part of Shin Megami Tensei happens... up until the part where Thor(man) launches the nuclear missiles. In the Devil Summoner continuity, he's killed beforehand due to the early warning provided by the Karukozaka incident, and the global nuclear war that ends the world is averted. It's odd that if Persona does take place in this continuity, that it doesn't mention a near-averted nuclear war.
  • Actually, a way to resolve this problem just occurred to me: Persona and Devil Summoner do take place in the same continuity, but Persona takes place before the events of Shin Megami Tensei that are still canon within this continuity, while Devil Summoner takes place after. I'd guess that Persona takes place only shortly after Shin Megami Tensei: If..., before the events of that game become common knowledge in this timeline, while Persona 2 would take place well after, once people are broadly aware of demons.
  • What about all of the alternate universes implied by Digital Devil Saga?
    • I still need to finish the Digital Devil Saga games, so I can't really factor it into this conclusion.
    • Both games have optional bosses from the main SMT series games that even mention things like the Millennium Kingdom from SMT2, one of the bosses even comments on how different the DDS world is from theirs. And at the end of DDS2, after Seraph achieves Nirvana, Schrodinger clues him/her in on the meaning of existence and tells her they'll go on a journey through other worlds to find other people who have achieved enlightenment. SMT 3 also directly states info about alternate dimensions very early in the plot.
• This sort of is just in response to the initial two issues with the timeline and my opinion shouldn't be taken to seriously as admittedly I have not touched If. However it seems that the Devil Summoner Universe is a bit of an eclectic steam punk-ish setting where as every game in the Persona series seems to be in 90's to early 2000's Japan. Therefore the idea that people knew about Demons in the Devil Summoner or If continuities but they merely fell out of common knowledge by the time Persona rolls along is not too much of a stretch. (Again, yet to play If so its setting could bollocks over this whole theory.) It could also explain why Demons and Shadows populate the first two (three) and the last two of each game, same beasts different name. (Admittedly this theory holds less water then the above.)
  • You're thinking of the two PS2 Devil Summoner games, which are prequels to the original series — they have a near-future Cyberpunk setting. I'm not totally clear if they happen whether we go into the main Shin Megami Tensei timeline or not, or whether they reflect the events that eventually cause the Persona/Devil Summoner timeline to happen instead.
• A response to how it may all fit together, its implied that God or something keeps wiping out the world and then its reset, so it may be possible it all happened, the world ends, and then its a different world.
  • head hurts... Ok actually SMT is a different alternate world; Devil Summoner would make more sense if it happens 'with-in' the Persona series...also, there are 'hints' a great catastrophe ALMOST happened but it's never explained what, could have been nuclear warhead launching? Either way Persona 1 thru 4 are linked, they all take place in the same time line and mostly at the near-same-time if the hints dropped in Persona 3 and 4 are to be believed. It's obvious the managa/anime Persona-Trinity Soul takes place after some years about Persona 3 but makes minor hints to Persona 1 and 2 also, even Igor's appearance is considered canon complete with the Persona Tarot cards.
  • To be fair, it goes like this ->
    • {Summoner Time-Line} Devil Summoner Raido 1 & 2 -> SMT If... -> Persona -> Persona 2 Innocent Sin -> Devil Summoner -> Devil Summoner 2 Soul Hackers
    • {Persona Time-Line} SMT If... -> Persona -> Persona 2 Eternal Punishment -> Persona 3 & FES -> Persona 4 -> Persona 5
    • What? No! Innocent Sin is pretty much a "dead end". Nothing follows it, for reasons those who have played the game would know. While it and Eternal Punishment are technically alternate timelines, when trying to come up with a game order timeline, Eternal Punishment effectively replaces Innocent Sin, not splits off from it. (You wouldn't know how many people make this mistak.e) Also, Trinity Soul is not only contradicted by both the first two (three?) Persona games and Persona 4, but I think Word of God also says it is noncanon.
    • It's more like this -
    • {Persona Timeline} - Raido Kuzunoha -> SMT If... -> Persona 2: Innocent Sin
    • {Philemon Timeline} - Persona 2: Eternal Punishment -> (possibly) Persona 3 -> Persona 4
    • I personally believe that 3 and 4 are the same universe, since we have Who's Who with old characters.
• I don't mind the new soundtrack for the PSP version of Persona — I actually kind of like it, and I understand why they would have changed it. What I don't understand is why some tracks were just outright dropped, instead of replaced with an equivalent. Some of the Leitmotifs are just gone, and the standard battle theme plays where "Awakening Legend" did in the original version. A UMD should have more than enough space for everything that was on a single-disc PSX game, and more.
  • I have to agree with this — it's rather depressing that so many tracks were just outright dropped for no apparent reason.
• So, only people who have met Philemon are able to change their personae, right? Would that mean that the hero of Persona 3 (And Heroine if one picks her) as well as the hero of Persona 4 were the only ones to meet Philemon there? And if so...how did they see him? Was he represented by something else?
  • With the P3 protagonist, it was because Death was inside him. The P4 protagonist, on the other hand, was just plain special. Persona switching is a game mechanic, Philemon was known for awakening Persona, not for giving persona users the ability to change. So as of now there's no explanation for how some people can switch.
    • According to Word of God, the butterflies seen in various cutscenes and as the save points in Persona 3 and 4 are Philemon in disguise, so technically they do meet him. Just not in person.
    • Well, part of the reason is that Izanami awakened his Persona, which gives him a slight edge over the other party members. I would expect that since the protagonist was welcomed to the Velvet Room early on, Philemon actively sought him out beforehand, so when Izanami awakened his Persona, he'd already have the wild card ability.
    • So what made everyone in the first two Persona games so special that they could all switch Personae?
    • They all met Philemon, whereas in P3 and P4, only the protagonists showed any sign of seeing the Blue Butterfly or meeting Philemon's proxy Igor?
  • Like to throw in my two bits: both Philemon and Nyarlathotep are capable of granting Personas. Minato has Death and P4's protagonist doesn't seem to have anything. Except that in P3, the protagonist has the ability because he signed Death's contract, and Igor mentions in 4 that the protagonist will enter into a contract as well. Do note that he gets that weird feeling after the intro... Some what should we take from this? The ability to use multiple Personas can be granted by entities from the Other Side, a list that includes Philemon, Nyarlathotep, Nyx, and Izanami. The protagonist entered into a contract with Izanami by shaking her hand at the gas station.
  • Also, remember that the protagonists of P3/4 are the only characters in the entire series who are of the Fool Arcana; when you consider the actual symbolism, this might imply that they have a stronger natural affinity for using multiple personas than the Persona users in the first two games. For one, the P3/4 MCs are the only Wild Cards who have equal affinity with personas of all arcana, and they can each carry up to 12 personas by themselves, as opposed to, say, the remake of Persona 2, where your entire party combined can only hold up to 14 in reserve (not counting the extra 28 that can be stored in the Velvet Room). Basically, it's possible that "Fools" only need to see Philemon's butterfly form in order to unlock their abilities, as opposed to needing him to give a personal talk like in the first two (three?) games.
    • This theory might be confirmed as of Persona 5, as Joker (whose Arcanaa is the Fool), is also able to naturally change his Persona despite never having met Philemon. It seems Philemon can grant the ability to switch Personas to anyone, while people who are of the Fool Arcana can do so naturally.

• About Nyarlathotep...Since he is sort of Philemon's polar opposite, would seeing him be able to grant people the use of multiple personae?
  • It's probably a trade-off. Nyarlathotep can make reality his bitch, but only he can do it. Philemon can do nothing himself in reality, but he can get other people to do it for him.
  • The theory may hold water; or if you're willing to take Persona 2 into account, both can give their powers to certain humans if it's willing to see how their bet holds up. I highly doubt that Guido/Kandori could've met Philemon and end up with his Nemesis as his persona.

• How many ways are there to summon a Persona? The most common way is to just hold your hands up and shout "Persona!" (or make a flushing toilet noise if you're in the PSP version; that's what it sounds like to me), but in Persona 3, the characters hold empty guns to their foreheads and shoot themselves. (At least, most of them do. I don't recall Takaya shooting himself with an Evoker because he'd probably use his loaded one by mistake and Aigis was a robot), and in Persona 4, they destroy Tarot cards.
  • I think it involves the current circumstances. In the first two games, the mythological figures invade the world belonging to the characters (or, depending on how you view things, it's the protagonists in the demon realm). This direct connection could mean that it was easier to summon them. In the third and fourth titles, Tartatus and TV Land were merely 'bridges' between worlds, and it required a bit more effort. As for guns versus cards, I think it's due to the Personas in 4 being more stable and willing to be summoned, having been accepted by their owners after a fight, whereas the P3 Personas… aren't quite as willing, and need to be forcibly 'evoked'.
  • Flushing toilet noise?! Now that's just crazy. The characters don't make the "toilet flush" noise. It's obviously the sound effect of the instant rune coming out and the Persona manifesting to perform its skill.
  • It's explicitly stated in Persona 3 that it's possible to summon a Persona without the Evoker, but it takes practice and effort. The characters probably lacked the trained will that the others possessed in the other games.
  • Persona 4: Arena touches on this; Mitsuru and Akihiko both mention that it's incredibly easy to summon their personas inside the TV and only use their evokers during their more powerful spells. (We never see Fuuka summon Juno on-screen, but it's apparent that she can do so outside both the TV and the Dark Hour; with Aigis it's hard to tell, since her evoker is built-in.)

• According to The Other Wiki (though I've paraphrased), Carl Jung (whose theories inspired aspects of the Persona series) believed that one product of the collective unconscious was a wise spirit guide who took the form of an elderly winged man. He originally dubbed this figure Elijah, but it developed into 'Philemon'. Assuming that this is where Philemon from Persona got his name, what of the other products that Jung believed in? According to the 'Red Book' article, there was also a young girl called Salome, an anima figure, and a large black snake. The snake might be Nyarlathotep, but I don't remember a 'Salome' figure in the Persona games...
  • Salome could be Alice?
  • I've seen a generic demon by that name.
    • That was the biblical Salome, whom Carl Jung's Salome was based on. In fact, Philemon was originally "Elijah", also inspired by a biblical figure.
    • Carl Jung also had a theory about the Darkness of the Human Soul and the things about people that they did not want to admit exist that he referred to a persons 'shadow' sound familiar?
• So what on earth was Mark doing carrying an ''axe'' around in the beginning of the first game? I assume Yuki probably carried her razor blades in anyways, because you can easily conceal those. But an axe?! What was Mark doing with that on a school day?! Does he always carry axes around with him around town?! And no, I'm not bothered with Elly — I assume that before she joined you, she ran to a closet and found a fencing sword upon seeing demons in the street. Don't know what Brown had, though I assume he could have picked something up in between the time he got put in jail and when he left school. Ayase obviously picked up a Jump Rope somewhere.
  • Sometimes fire alarms have little axes next to them, presumably for hacking your way out of a burning building. Mark could have jacked one of those pretty easily.
  • You're all assumed to be a group of delinquents. But still, either he's just that Crazy Is Cool, or Maki just thought he'd be a kind of Ax-Crazy guy. And Brown got a spear as his weapon, BTW.
    • A spear? But where did he get a spear. I clearly don't see spears on my streets...
    • Somehow made it by himself perhaps? Or took it from somewhere?
  • I doubt Elly was ever a delinquent (unless liking Horror is a crime in Mikage), nor do I think that Maki (always in the hospital) nor Kei (status reasons) had a reason to become a delinquent.
• Why is Naoya the only Persona protagonist whose eyes are a different colour than his hair? I mean, it's not that big a bug, but it does raise a whole bunch of questions once you think about it...
  • I'm actually certain that P3's main character has blue hair and grey eyes, so it's not that weird.
  • Because Persona 3 and 4 are more heavily inspired by anime, with Curtains Match the Window being an anime cliche. Tatsuya gets away with it because his element is fire and his eyes and hair both look red.
• Okay, why can't you revive the MC of Persona 4 with something that heals Unconciousness? I get that if he died in the game you're other would be screwed, but isn't this like some kind of gameplay and story seperation something? It really bugs me so bad.
  • Persona 3 made more sense for this case but in Persona 4 we would have to assume it's because Philemon gave the MC his powers but since Philemon has been weakened, someone who has the Zero potential cannot survive unconsciousness like they could in Persona 1.
  • Maybe it's because Persona 4 was an experiment being conducted in Inaba. If the MC — who represents hope — lost his consciousness for even a single second, he would've lost and Inazami would immediately unleash the fog.
• I'm rather interested why the characters in SMT:Persona and Persona 2(IS and EP) can use their Personae anytime they want in their cities, but the chars of Persona 3 and Persona 4 have to go to a specific location (Tartarus, Abyss of Time, Midnight Channel) and/or at a specific time (Dark Hour). Is there a special reason for that? And before you say: "Maybe they didn't want to use their Personae outside of Tartarus/Midnight Channel" In Persona 4 Rise clearly wanted to use her persona at the field trip (she was drunk though).
  • Well, the characters who show the most signs of being able to use their Personas outside the "normal conditions" in the later games are the protagonists, who have at least some contact with Philemon/the Velvet Room, just like the Persona users from the earlier games did. As for the P3 gang specifically, though, I doubt they'd get away with shooting themselves in broad daylight, but I do believe that they could, after all, remember that Aigis and Metis's battle at the beginning of the Answer took place outside the Abyss of Time, even if just barely outside.
    • Besides pointing out the P4 fact with Rise, I want to state that the fight between Metis and Aigis does not count since they were already inside the influence of the Abyss (nobody could leave the house at the time) and Aigis (at the tim still robotic) could have used her Persona against a certain Nyx-avatar as they have met first. And Koro-chan as an animal could have unleashed his persona multiple time per instinct. I am preety sure that the Gang has the evokers always ready (even though its a good point, now that you mention)
    • Actually now that you mentioned Aigis and the 1999 incident, Aigis's cellphone spin off takes place before the creation of the Dark Hour, and she can use her Persona there. Also, remember that Aigis and her kinda were made to use Personas anyway. Wouldn't it be a bit odd if they made the androids so that they can only use their main power in a environment that doesn't yet exist?
  • In Persona 1 and 2, the abillity to use personas is given to them by Philemon. On the other hand, on P3 and P4 the abilities are awakened by the people themselves inside those special areas in the middle of uncounsciousness and reality, either by defeating their shadows in P4 or even by external means in P3. It stands to reason that Philemon gave the P1 and P2 crew the ability to use their personas that freely, but since P3 and P4 were awakened by the characters themselves they just aren't able to do it without much more training.
    • On the fact that Rise was unable to use her Persona when Drunk... It has been mentioned in P 4 A that it is far easier to summon while in the TV land, also having the Focus to summon forth a persona when Drunk would be a downright awesome (and nearly impossible) thing to do. The entire reason that SEES uses Evokers is that they need to focus and intent to put there lives on the line to get into the mind set of summoning. The Dark Hour also probably makes it somewhat easier to summon as well, due to the fact that Shadows could manifest.
  • The first and second Persona games actually do have supernatural locations - it's just less obvious than the Dark Hour in 3 and the Midnight Channel in 4. In Persona, the city you've been fighting in the whole time is Maki's warped dream world (or in an ice-covered world ruled by the Night Queen, Nemesis, Thanatos, and Hypnos if you're playing the Snow Queen Quest), while in the Persona 2 games, Nyarlathotep cursed Sumaru City with the reality-altering rumor spell, which eventually escalated with the creation of Xibalba and the Zodiac Shrines as the rumors became more outrageous. While there's the argument that the first three games' parties contacting Philemon gave them an advantage over the latter two parties awakening on their own accord, the first three still technically fought in places affected by paranormal activities.

• Why did Kandori choose Maki, a sick girl with episodic fits of dementia, for his DVA-System to realize her "Ideal-Town"? It doesn't help the fact that she is the daughter of one of his scientists. He could use any other person in the freakin' hospital. The next thing: How did he kidnap her? I mean she screams, the other run to the door an suddenly there is a wall? How does that work?
  • He didn't. Maki's wishes were so strong, her brainwaves connected with the ICU and Aki appeared. Kandori realized it was too late for his dreams to be realized, and just went with Maki's. That's probably why he attacked Setsuko. Since the world was already being altered, he probably just warped the ICU to the SEBEC Building (explaining why it's there later on when you go back to the real world.
  • I believe it is stated later on that Aki came in contact with Kandori through early testing of the DVA System before he kidnapped the "real" Maki. Through that, he probably figured she'd be the best candidate for the machine, since it already summoned part of her subconscious. As for the kidnapping, he probably used the same thing he used to warp the hospital layout and fill it with demons to warp the ICU to the SEBEC building.

• Is Izanami as powerful as Philemon and Nyarlothep? Since she was able to give Yu (the MC of P4), Namatame and Adachi the ability of Persona just like them. On the other hand she was easily defeated unlike the other two (Philemon even has Elizabeth/Theo in P3 and Margarete in P4, which are way harder then Izanami no Okami...
  • Izanami is a goddess while those two are implied to be primal parts of the universe. So it's likely that Izanami is a step below them. And in either case it's not like Izanami is really trying all too hard. When you defeat her she pretty clearly expresses her hopes that things turn out well for humanity. Between that and all the outside help the MC of P4 got it's easy to assume she's an incredibly powerful being but not unstoppable. Philemon and Nyarlathotep are probably in line with Nyx, something that's literally undefeatable.
    • Actually, Persona 4 Golden revealed that Izanami is also a part of the Human collective subconscious mind, akin to Philemon and Nyarlathotep. She represents the "wish" subconsciously held by all of them combined. Since her strength derives from everybody, it isn't a stretch to say that Izanami is in the same league as Philemon and Nyrlathotep.

• Does anyone know what the name of Takeda's Persona is? The closest I can figure is that on the Persona Won tvtropes page and on a site called mystery meep, it's listed as Noppera-bo, but I don't know if there's any official confirmation for that.
  • Still nothing. The site you mention is most likely false. The closest that may be official is the name "Titan" which is rumored to come from the drama CD. However, without a proper source that can't be confirmed.

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