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-->'''Stick:''' I am a stick.\\
'''Shallan:''' But you could be fire.\\
'''Stick:''' [{{beat}}] I am a stick.
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No longer alternate character interpretation. The later books confirm that Taravangian simply loses empathy as he becomes smarter.


* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: When Taravangian is at his most intelligent, he comes up with plans like a GeniusBreedingAct and the inverse, ordering the stupid to kill themselves. These are obviously unworkable, to say the least. However, do they fail because his intelligent phase lacks some quality like empathy or humility or just isn't as smart as it seems, or do they fail because he just doesn't remain smart long enough to put them into effect? Is Taravangian sometimes actually smart enough to talk people into killing themselves?
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Disagreements within a fandom ar enot Broken Base. Broken Base is a deep, persistent civil war within a fandom that has no middle ground or agreement between either side.


* BrokenBase:
** Some fans are... less than pleased at the sudden death/revival of numerous characters, particularly [[spoiler: Jasnah and Szeth]]. Some compare Brandon to Robert Jordan in that he tries to use all of the emotional weight of their deaths only to turn around and bring them back for the purpose of the story. In both cases, there has been a witness, so both deaths are a clear aversion of NeverFoundTheBody. Then again, there are many who see this move as a solid set-up on Sanderson's part, building up the characters for the next books.
** Kaladin here is either overly whiny and actually taking a step back in his character development, or he is progressing in a very poignant and believable manner given his traumatic and depressive life.
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Kaladin has clinical depression, and you can't avert YMMV tropes.


* {{Wangst}}:
** Kaladin isn't as bad as in the first book, but he still spends more time than is healthy wallowing in angst. At least he realizes it's a problem and tries to fix it.
** Shallan is actually a surprising aversion. Despite the fact that the events of the book are basically a TraumaCongaLine for her, and her flashback chapters are even worse, she manages to keep up a strong front. It [[AngstWhatAngst almost crosses into the other trope]], to the point that Kaladin assumes she's a spoiled brat who has never known hardship.
** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is a nascent Lightweaver all through this novel and has supernatural skill at lying ''including to herself'', and thus spends the novel in magic-powered super-denial]], so this is understandable.
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What An Idiot is Flamebait and has been removed.


* WhatAnIdiot:
** Kaladin's public demand to face Amaram in a duel is seen as this, as it derails the plot to catch Sadeas. However, he has no way of knowing the dueling customs of [[BlueBlood lighteyes]], and as such did not realize that he was wrong in his demand. The one at fault, who is subsequently treated badly, is [[InadequateInheritor Elhokar]], who [[DisproportionateRetribution overreacted]] to the event instead of simply ignoring it [[spoiler:because he is jealous of Kaladin's heroism and the love he receives]].
** While less due to stupidity than most examples, Sadeas is clearly not firing on all cylinders if he thinks [[spoiler: trying to undermine the world's literal only hope of survival and then bragging about it to Adolin]] is a good idea. He even seems to acknowledge that it's probably not the best course of action, he just doesn't seem to be able to do anything else. [[spoiler: He dies before he can even carry out his schemes, of course.]]
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* JerkassHasAPoint: Shallan repeatedly points out to Kaladin he's very sour and antagonistic towards her. Shallan assumes Kaladin is just being prejudiced against light eyes (which, to be fair, he often ''is'') until he points out their first meeting shows she's not above classism like she thinks she is.

to:

* JerkassHasAPoint: Shallan repeatedly points out to Kaladin he's very sour and antagonistic towards her. Shallan assumes Kaladin is just being prejudiced against light eyes lighteyes (which, to be fair, he often ''is'') until he points out their first meeting shows she's not above classism like she thinks she is.



** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is a nascent Lightweaver all through this novel and has supernatural skill at lying ''including to herself'', and thus spends the novel in magic powered super-denial]], so this is understandable.

to:

** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is a nascent Lightweaver all through this novel and has supernatural skill at lying ''including to herself'', and thus spends the novel in magic powered magic-powered super-denial]], so this is understandable.
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** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is a nascent Lightweaver all through this novel, has supernatural skill at lying ''including to herself'', and is thus in magic powered super-denial]], so this is understandable.

to:

** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is a nascent Lightweaver all through this novel, novel and has supernatural skill at lying ''including to herself'', and is thus spends the novel in magic powered super-denial]], so this is understandable.
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None


** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is at all points we see her in this novel a nascent Lightweaver, which means she has literally magical skill at lying and having her lies be believed and is thus in essence in magic powered super-denial]], so this is understandable.

to:

** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is at all points we see her in this novel a nascent Lightweaver, which means she Lightweaver all through this novel, has literally magical supernatural skill at lying and having her lies be believed ''including to herself'', and is thus in essence in magic powered super-denial]], so this is understandable.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Initially, Kaladin's public demand to face Amaram in a duel is seen as this, as it derails the plot to catch Sadeas. However, he has no way of knowing the dueling customs of [[BlueBlood lighteyes]], and as such did not realize that he was wrong in his demand. The one at fault, who is subsequently treated badly, is [[InadequateInheritor Elhokar]], who [[DisproportionateRetribution overreacted]] to the event instead of simply ignoring it [[spoiler:because he is jealous of Kaladin's heroism and the love he receives]].
** While less due to stupidity than most examples, Sadeas is clearly not firing on all cylinders if he thinks [[spoiler: trying to undermine the world's literal only hope of survival and then bragging about it to Adolin]] is a good idea. [[spoiler: He dies before he can even carry out his schemes.]]

to:

** Initially, Kaladin's public demand to face Amaram in a duel is seen as this, as it derails the plot to catch Sadeas. However, he has no way of knowing the dueling customs of [[BlueBlood lighteyes]], and as such did not realize that he was wrong in his demand. The one at fault, who is subsequently treated badly, is [[InadequateInheritor Elhokar]], who [[DisproportionateRetribution overreacted]] to the event instead of simply ignoring it [[spoiler:because he is jealous of Kaladin's heroism and the love he receives]].
** While less due to stupidity than most examples, Sadeas is clearly not firing on all cylinders if he thinks [[spoiler: trying to undermine the world's literal only hope of survival and then bragging about it to Adolin]] is a good idea. He even seems to acknowledge that it's probably not the best course of action, he just doesn't seem to be able to do anything else. [[spoiler: He dies before he can even carry out his schemes.schemes, of course.]]
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* MemeticMutation: Pretty much everything about Stick.
** "I am a stick."
*** "But you could be fire."
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Cut per discussion.


* MagnificentBastard:
** Taravangian is a very unusual example, since his level of magnificence (and bastardy) changes every morning. At the height of his powers though he is ''so'' magnificent that he can practically predict the future though sheer deductive brilliance.
** Dalinar is a ''lot'' more canny in this book. From his rather blunt plan to have Adolin beat the crap out of every single enemy Shardbearer in a duel, to the trick with the boon to force a duel with Sadeas, and his plot to [[spoiler:trap Amaram in a lie to prove that Kaladin's accusations are true]], he just keeps getting better at it.
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* JerkassHasAPoint: Shallan repeatedly points out to Kaladin he's very sour and antagonistic towards her. Shallan assumes Kaladin is just being prejudiced against light eyes (Which, to be fair, he often ''is'') until he points out their first meeting shows she's not above classism like she thinks she is.

to:

* JerkassHasAPoint: Shallan repeatedly points out to Kaladin he's very sour and antagonistic towards her. Shallan assumes Kaladin is just being prejudiced against light eyes (Which, (which, to be fair, he often ''is'') until he points out their first meeting shows she's not above classism like she thinks she is.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: When Taravangian is at his most intelligent, he comes up with plans like a GeniusBreedingAct and the inverse, ordering the stupid to kill themselves. This is obviously unworkable, to say the least. However, do they fail because his intelligent phase lacks some quality like empathy or humility or just isn't as smart as it seems, or do they fail because he just doesn't remain smart long enough to put them into effect? Is Taravangian sometimes actually smart enough to talk people into killing themselves?

to:

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: When Taravangian is at his most intelligent, he comes up with plans like a GeniusBreedingAct and the inverse, ordering the stupid to kill themselves. This is These are obviously unworkable, to say the least. However, do they fail because his intelligent phase lacks some quality like empathy or humility or just isn't as smart as it seems, or do they fail because he just doesn't remain smart long enough to put them into effect? Is Taravangian sometimes actually smart enough to talk people into killing themselves?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is at all points we see her in this novel a nascent Lightweaver, which means she has literally magical skill at lying and having her lies be believed and is thus in essence in magic powered super-denial]], this is understandable.

to:

** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is at all points we see her in this novel a nascent Lightweaver, which means she has literally magical skill at lying and having her lies be believed and is thus in essence in magic powered super-denial]], so this is understandable.
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None

Added DiffLines:

** Of course, [[spoiler: Shallan is at all points we see her in this novel a nascent Lightweaver, which means she has literally magical skill at lying and having her lies be believed and is thus in essence in magic powered super-denial]], this is understandable.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: When Taravangian is at his most intelligent, he comes up with plans like a GeniusBreedingAct and the inverse, ordering the stupid to kill themselves. This is obviously unworkable, to say the least. However, do they fail because his intelligent phase lacks some quality like empathy or humility or just isn't as smart as it seems, or do they fail because he just doesn't remain smart long enough to put them into effect? Is Taravangian sometimes actually smart enough to talk people into killing themselves?

to:

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: When Taravangian is at his most intelligent, he comes up with plans like a GeniusBreedingAct and the inverse, ordering the stupid to kill themselves. This is obviously unworkable, to say the least. However, do they fail because his intelligent phase lacks some quality like empathy or humility or just isn't as smart as it seems, or do they fail because he just doesn't remain smart long enough to put them into effect? Is Taravangian sometimes actually smart enough to talk people into killing themselves?
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None


* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: When Taravingian is at his most intelligent, he comes up with plans like a GeniusBreedingAct and the inverse, ordering the stupid to kill themselves. This is obviously unworkable, to say the least. However, do they fail because his intelligent phase lacks some quality like empathy or humility or just isn't as smart as it seems, or do they fail because he just doesn't remain smart long enough to put them into effect? Is Taravingian sometimes actually smart enough to talk people into killing themselves?

to:

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: When Taravingian Taravangian is at his most intelligent, he comes up with plans like a GeniusBreedingAct and the inverse, ordering the stupid to kill themselves. This is obviously unworkable, to say the least. However, do they fail because his intelligent phase lacks some quality like empathy or humility or just isn't as smart as it seems, or do they fail because he just doesn't remain smart long enough to put them into effect? Is Taravingian Taravangian sometimes actually smart enough to talk people into killing themselves?



** Taravingian is a very unusual example, since his level of magnificence (and bastardy) changes every morning. At the height of his powers though he is ''so'' magnificent that he can practically predict the future though sheer deductive brilliance.

to:

** Taravingian Taravangian is a very unusual example, since his level of magnificence (and bastardy) changes every morning. At the height of his powers though he is ''so'' magnificent that he can practically predict the future though sheer deductive brilliance.
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None


* LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt: Killing off [[spoiler: Jasnah Kholin]].

to:

* LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt: Killing off [[spoiler: Jasnah Kholin]].Kholin and Szeth]].
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* LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt: Killing off [[spoiler: Jasnah Kholin]].
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* JerkassHasAPoint: Shallan repeatedly points out to Kaladin he's very sour and antagonistic towards her. Shallan assumes Kaladin is just being prejudiced against light eyes until he points out their first meeting shows she's not above classism like she thinks she is.

to:

* JerkassHasAPoint: Shallan repeatedly points out to Kaladin he's very sour and antagonistic towards her. Shallan assumes Kaladin is just being prejudiced against light eyes (Which, to be fair, he often ''is'') until he points out their first meeting shows she's not above classism like she thinks she is.

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Changed: 521

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* ShipToShipCombat: Sanderson's fandom is pretty polite in general, but this book still brought up some shipping wars. There's Adolin/Shallan, Kaladin/Shallan, and [[{{OT3}} Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan]] as main contenders, but [[HoYay Adolin/Kaladin]] has a decent following as well. [[ShipsThatPassInTheNight Jasnah/Kaladin]] has healthy support, as does Kaladin/Syl. The smallest is probably Shallan/Syl; not only do they literally not say a single word to or even about each other in the entire book, Syl's dislike of lies means she would be strongly opposed to everything Shallan is doing.



* WhatAnIdiot: Initially, Kaladin's public demand to face Amaram in a duel is seen as this, as it derails the plot to catch Sadeas. However, he has no way of knowing the dueling customs of [[BlueBlood lighteyes]], and as such did not realize that he was wrong in his demand. The one at fault, who is subsequently treated badly, is [[InadequateInheritor Elhokar]], who [[DisproportionateRetribution overreacted]] to the event instead of simply ignoring it [[spoiler:because he is jealous of Kaladin's heroism and the love he receives]].

to:

* WhatAnIdiot: WhatAnIdiot:
**
Initially, Kaladin's public demand to face Amaram in a duel is seen as this, as it derails the plot to catch Sadeas. However, he has no way of knowing the dueling customs of [[BlueBlood lighteyes]], and as such did not realize that he was wrong in his demand. The one at fault, who is subsequently treated badly, is [[InadequateInheritor Elhokar]], who [[DisproportionateRetribution overreacted]] to the event instead of simply ignoring it [[spoiler:because he is jealous of Kaladin's heroism and the love he receives]].
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None

Added DiffLines:

** While less due to stupidity than most examples, Sadeas is clearly not firing on all cylinders if he thinks [[spoiler: trying to undermine the world's literal only hope of survival and then bragging about it to Adolin]] is a good idea. [[spoiler: He dies before he can even carry out his schemes.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* WhatAnIdiot: Kaladin derails one of Dalinar's plans (a plan he ''knew'' about, no less) by issuing a challenge to Amaram at perhaps the worst possible time. Though it's noted that the plan could have continued if Elhokar hadn't taken it personally and had just powered through it (and to be fair, Kaladin didn't know that he was forbidden from challenging Amaram at all).

to:

* WhatAnIdiot: Kaladin Initially, Kaladin's public demand to face Amaram in a duel is seen as this, as it derails one of Dalinar's plans (a plan he ''knew'' about, no less) by issuing a challenge to Amaram at perhaps the worst possible time. Though it's noted that plot to catch Sadeas. However, he has no way of knowing the plan could have continued if Elhokar hadn't taken it personally dueling customs of [[BlueBlood lighteyes]], and had just powered through it (and to be fair, Kaladin didn't know as such did not realize that he was forbidden from challenging Amaram wrong in his demand. The one at all).fault, who is subsequently treated badly, is [[InadequateInheritor Elhokar]], who [[DisproportionateRetribution overreacted]] to the event instead of simply ignoring it [[spoiler:because he is jealous of Kaladin's heroism and the love he receives]].

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