History YMMV / TortallUniverse

15th Sep '17 8:21:48 PM Angeldeb82
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation:

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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: AlternativeCharacterInterpretation:



** Liam Ironarm. Some fans think that it was good for Alanna to have the relationship with him, even if they broke up. Others just consider him a totally unlikable JerkAss who has no business lecturing her on how to live her life.

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** Liam Ironarm. Some fans think that it was good for Alanna to have the relationship with him, even if they broke up. Others just consider him a totally unlikable JerkAss {{Jerkass}} who has no business lecturing her on how to live her life.



* DracoInLeatherPants: Despite being an uncompromisingly misogynistic asshole who even threatens that he'll try to kill Keladry once they're both knights, Joren has a lot of fans. Even fans who ''ship him and Kel''. (For bonus points, his physical description is actually similar to Draco's: delicate good looks and white-blond hair.) It's probably helped by ''Lioness'' having featured a very '80s case of {{Stalking Is Love}}.

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* DracoInLeatherPants: Despite being an uncompromisingly misogynistic asshole who even threatens that he'll try to kill Keladry once they're both knights, Joren has a lot of fans. Even fans who ''ship him and Kel''. (For bonus points, his physical description is actually similar to Draco's: delicate good looks and white-blond hair.) It's probably helped by ''Lioness'' having featured a very '80s case of {{Stalking Is Love}}.StalkingIsLove.



* HilariousInHindsight: In the first chapter of ''Trickster's Choice'', Daine is pregnant with a shapeshifting baby, which forces her to shift along with it so it doesn't rip her apart. [[{{Twilight}} Too bad someone else didn't have that ability.]]

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* HilariousInHindsight: In the first chapter of ''Trickster's Choice'', Daine is pregnant with a shapeshifting baby, which forces her to shift along with it so it doesn't rip her apart. [[{{Twilight}} [[Literature/{{Twilight}} Too bad someone else didn't have that ability.]]



* MarySue:
** Tortall's protagonists tend to attract this in general thanks to their CosmicPlaything status and magic powers, although in most cases TropesAreNotBad--it's justified in the name of plot development, and the knee-jerk cry of "Sue!" doesn't always hold up to examination (Alanna's PurpleEyes and magic, for example, are offset by her temper being a genuine flaw and being specifically average in looks, and Daine's refusal to be a PuritySue).
** Interestingly, Alanna alludes to the idea in-universe when explains why Kel is a more valuable role model to the girls of Tortall: Alanna, being god-touched and powerfully Gifted, is seen as a "once-in-a-century" hero whose achievements couldn't possibly be matched by an ordinary person. Kel, as a BadassNormal, is much more accessible to girls who want to be knights--even though Alanna's most prominent trait is being a stubborn {{Determinator}}, that's not the one people ''talk'' about.
** Aly does provide an unusually straight example. She sails through her whole story with hardly any real challenge, up against a group of completely incompetent villains, and even on the rare occasion when something does go wrong, it ultimately makes things easier for her, ie [[spoiler:Sarai running away when Dove would make a much better queen anyway, and Dunevon's ship sinking, which saves her from having to decide what to do with him after his family is overthrown.]]Unlike the other Tortall heroines, her story starts with her chosen skill set already fully formed rather than spending a book or two seeing how she became such a great spy. This makes it worse because readers don't see her as a "rookie" at the start like the others (and so when she makes mistakes, which she does, her spying genius comes off as InformedAbility).
** Farmer can come off as a male version, having a much broader array of abilities than typical mages in the series, which allows Pierce to use him to easily get the heroes out of sticky situations whenever she wants. And then there's the bit where [[spoiler:Beka has sex with him before she's ruled him out as the traitor in the group, as she reminds us just a few pages later]].



** Women are people who should be able to pursue their dreams and desires (including romantic and sexual ones) without being shamed or forced to hide who they are. Also, RealWomenNeverWearDresses is a bullshit idea--mothers and seamstresses and [[ProperLady Proper Ladies]] aren't automatically weak or shallow just for being traditionally feminine. These points come up in various ways in every series with varying levels of force.

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** Women are people who should be able to pursue their dreams and desires (including romantic and sexual ones) without being shamed or forced to hide who they are. Also, RealWomenNeverWearDresses RealWomenDontWearDresses is a bullshit idea--mothers and seamstresses and [[ProperLady Proper Ladies]] {{Proper Lad|y}}ies aren't automatically weak or shallow just for being traditionally feminine. These points come up in various ways in every series with varying levels of force.
4th Jun '17 2:58:41 PM nombretomado
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* FanNickname: To be honest, the only place you're likely to see Aly's books actually referred to as ''Daughter of the Lioness'' is on TVTropes. Everyone just calls them the "Trickster books" or "Trickster duet."

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* FanNickname: To be honest, the only place you're likely to see Aly's books actually referred to as ''Daughter of the Lioness'' is on TVTropes.Wiki/TVTropes. Everyone just calls them the "Trickster books" or "Trickster duet."
10th May '17 2:22:37 PM Pren
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Added DiffLines:

** Pierce tried to put in gay characters right from the start of the series, but managed to never actually make it explicit in the text. She very much regretted this by the time of ''Provost's Dog'' and made sure to specify that it includes an unquestionably canon gay couple.
7th Aug '16 9:29:13 PM Anddrix
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* BaseBreaker:

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* BaseBreaker: BaseBreakingCharacter:
17th Oct '15 7:27:37 AM eowynjedi
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* DesignatedHero: Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course, but even considering that it can be hard to sympathise with his struggles. Nawat is high-handed about everything down to not using diapers (which only works for him ''because'' he can crow-sense when the babies need to go) and sneaks around behind Aly's back, then pitches a fit when she expresses valid objections--said objections include that the kid pissed on an ambassador's secretary and that he's using a two-story window. In his later struggle over [[spoiler:whether to kill Ochobai for her dwarfism]] he's still acting without considering Aly's wishes at all in spite of learning to compromise earlier. Instead he laments how it's difficult to lie to her; not because he shouldn't lie to his wife, but because her Sight makes it physically difficult.

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* DesignatedHero: Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course, but even considering that it can be hard to sympathise with his struggles. Nawat is high-handed about everything down to not using diapers (which only works for him ''because'' he can crow-sense when the babies need to go) and sneaks around behind Aly's back, then pitches a fit when she expresses valid objections--said objections include that the kid pissed on an ambassador's secretary and that he's using a two-story window. He's painted as being in the right and it's ''Aly'' who apologizes for not suggesting a compromise in spite of not knowing he was continuing to do this. In his later struggle over [[spoiler:whether to kill Ochobai for her dwarfism]] he's still acting without considering Aly's wishes at all in spite of learning to compromise earlier. Instead he laments how it's difficult to lie to her; not because he shouldn't lie to his wife, but because her Sight makes it physically difficult.
17th Oct '15 7:25:03 AM eowynjedi
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* DesignatedHero: Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course, but even considering that it can be hard to sympathise with his struggles. Nawat is high-handed about everything down to not using diapers (which only works for him ''because'' he can crow-sense when the babies need to go) and sneaks around behind Aly's back, then pitches a fit when she expresses valid objections--said objections include that the kid pissed on an ambassador's secretary and that he's using a two-story window. In his later struggle over [[spoiler:whether to kill Ochobai for her dwarfism]] he's still acting without considering Aly's wishes at all in spite of learning to compromise earlier. Instead he laments how it's difficult to lie to her; not because he shouldn't lie to his wife, but because her Sight makes it physically difficult.



*** Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as humans) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly or human nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a hilarious diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his or her CulturalPosturing.
13th Aug '15 8:22:00 PM ChaoticNovelist
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*** Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes such a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as babies) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly and the team of experienced nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his CulturalPosturing.

to:

*** Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes such a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as babies) humans) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly and the team of experienced or human nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a hilarious diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his or her CulturalPosturing.
10th Aug '15 11:24:47 AM ChaoticNovelist
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** Jon suffered from it when Pierce decided not to put him and Alanna together after two books of building their romance. To send her after George instead, she has Jon give an out of nowhere rant that Alanna should be completely subservient to him, like he's being possessed by Joren from the future. And then he goes right back to his likable self, making it even weirder.



** After [[spoiler:Tunstall]] is revealed as a traitor in ''Mastiff'', Beka is told that one day she'll also face a decision where the morality of betraying her oath won't seem as clear cut. She dismisses it as a cheap excuse, and since this is the end of her story, we never find out if it actually happened.

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** After [[spoiler:Tunstall]] is revealed as a traitor in ''Mastiff'', Beka is told that one day she'll also face a decision where the morality of betraying her oath won't seem as clear cut. She dismisses it as a cheap excuse, and since this is the end of her story, we never find out if it actually happened.



* UnfortunateImplications: Some readers of the Trickster books [[http://www.amithaknight.com/2011/01/book-review-tricksters-choice-by-tamora-pierce-spoilers/ have]] [[http://girlsincapes.com/2014/10/01/el-problematicfave/ noted]] the MightyWhitey issues therein, with white Aly being the only one who can catalyze the brown-skinned raka into open rebellion. Although it's made clear (particularly in the second book) that plans have been going on for years and she's one part of a big picture, her being treated as a priceless spying genius in Book 1 when she makes some big blunders (like trying to blend in with "brownface" and being found out immediately) doesn't help.

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* UnfortunateImplications: Some readers of the Trickster books [[http://www.amithaknight.com/2011/01/book-review-tricksters-choice-by-tamora-pierce-spoilers/ have]] [[http://girlsincapes.com/2014/10/01/el-problematicfave/ noted]] the MightyWhitey issues therein, with white Aly being the only one who can catalyze the brown-skinned raka into open rebellion. Although it's made clear (particularly in the second book) that plans have been going on for years and she's one part of a big picture, her being treated as a priceless spying genius in Book 1 when she makes some big blunders (like trying to blend in with "brownface" and being found out immediately) doesn't help.make this harder to swallow.



** In ''Protector of the Small'', [[spoiler:Alanna is the one sending Kel all her gear]]. Some fans were actually surprised to realize this was even supposed to be a twist.
** In ''Bloodhound'', Beka learns early on that a man named Hanse is part of the cole operation. Then she meets a man from Port Caynn named Hanse, but somehow completely fails to make the connection, and the inevitable reveal that he's ''the'' Hanse is played like it's supposed to be a surprise. Although we're told that Hanse is a common name, OneSteveLimit is in play, so it probably would have worked better if it was a name readers themselves recognized as common.

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** In ''Protector of the Small'', [[spoiler:Alanna is the one sending Kel all her gear]]. Some fans were actually surprised to realize this was even supposed to be a twist.
twist. Who else would be doing it?
** In ''Bloodhound'', Beka learns early on that a man named Hanse is part of the cole operation. Then she meets a man from Port Caynn named Hanse, but somehow completely fails to make the connection, and the inevitable reveal that he's ''the'' Hanse is played like it's supposed to be a surprise. Although we're told that Hanse is a common name, OneSteveLimit is in play, so it probably would have worked better if it was a name readers themselves recognized as common.
10th Aug '15 10:52:07 AM ChaoticNovelist
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* DesignatedHero: Nawat in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes such a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as babies) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly and the team of experienced nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his CulturalPosturing. He also laments that it's hard to lie to his wife because she has the Sight. His childish behavior makes it really hard to sympathize with his later struggle over whether or not to commit infanticide.



* {{Wangst}}: Aly whining about Nawat being sent away to serve a more useful purpose, despite Nawat himself clearly being unhappy where he was and wanting to be more useful. She realizes how ridiculous it is later.

to:

* {{Wangst}}: ***Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes such a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as babies) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly and the team of experienced nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his CulturalPosturing.
* {{Wangst}}:
**Aly
whining about Nawat being sent away to serve a more useful purpose, despite Nawat himself clearly being unhappy where he was and wanting to be more useful. She realizes how ridiculous it is later.
27th Jul '15 2:16:34 PM StFan
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** At the end of ''Mastiff'' George Cooper is warned that he will come to deeply regret the path he's chosen. A year later the series began to be covered on MarkDoesStuff, and the horrified reaction of him and most of the commenters toward George and Alanna's StalkingIsLove romance caused Pierce to indeed deeply regret that she'd written the story that way.

to:

** At the end of ''Mastiff'' George Cooper is warned that he will come to deeply regret the path he's chosen. A year later the series began to be covered on MarkDoesStuff, Blog/MarkDoesStuff, and the horrified reaction of him and most of the commenters toward George and Alanna's StalkingIsLove romance caused Pierce to indeed deeply regret that she'd written the story that way.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.TortallUniverse