History YMMV / TortallUniverse

7th Aug '16 9:29:13 PM Anddrix
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* BaseBreaker:

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* BaseBreaker: BaseBreakingCharacter:
17th Oct '15 7:27:37 AM eowynjedi
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* DesignatedHero: Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course, but even considering that it can be hard to sympathise with his struggles. Nawat is high-handed about everything down to not using diapers (which only works for him ''because'' he can crow-sense when the babies need to go) and sneaks around behind Aly's back, then pitches a fit when she expresses valid objections--said objections include that the kid pissed on an ambassador's secretary and that he's using a two-story window. In his later struggle over [[spoiler:whether to kill Ochobai for her dwarfism]] he's still acting without considering Aly's wishes at all in spite of learning to compromise earlier. Instead he laments how it's difficult to lie to her; not because he shouldn't lie to his wife, but because her Sight makes it physically difficult.

to:

* DesignatedHero: Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course, but even considering that it can be hard to sympathise with his struggles. Nawat is high-handed about everything down to not using diapers (which only works for him ''because'' he can crow-sense when the babies need to go) and sneaks around behind Aly's back, then pitches a fit when she expresses valid objections--said objections include that the kid pissed on an ambassador's secretary and that he's using a two-story window. He's painted as being in the right and it's ''Aly'' who apologizes for not suggesting a compromise in spite of not knowing he was continuing to do this. In his later struggle over [[spoiler:whether to kill Ochobai for her dwarfism]] he's still acting without considering Aly's wishes at all in spite of learning to compromise earlier. Instead he laments how it's difficult to lie to her; not because he shouldn't lie to his wife, but because her Sight makes it physically difficult.
17th Oct '15 7:25:03 AM eowynjedi
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* DesignatedHero: Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course, but even considering that it can be hard to sympathise with his struggles. Nawat is high-handed about everything down to not using diapers (which only works for him ''because'' he can crow-sense when the babies need to go) and sneaks around behind Aly's back, then pitches a fit when she expresses valid objections--said objections include that the kid pissed on an ambassador's secretary and that he's using a two-story window. In his later struggle over [[spoiler:whether to kill Ochobai for her dwarfism]] he's still acting without considering Aly's wishes at all in spite of learning to compromise earlier. Instead he laments how it's difficult to lie to her; not because he shouldn't lie to his wife, but because her Sight makes it physically difficult.



*** Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as humans) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly or human nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a hilarious diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his or her CulturalPosturing.
13th Aug '15 8:22:00 PM ChaoticNovelist
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*** Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes such a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as babies) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly and the team of experienced nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his CulturalPosturing.

to:

*** Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes such a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as babies) humans) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly and the team of experienced or human nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a hilarious diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his or her CulturalPosturing.
10th Aug '15 11:24:47 AM ChaoticNovelist
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** Jon suffered from it when Pierce decided not to put him and Alanna together after two books of building their romance. To send her after George instead, she has Jon give an out of nowhere rant that Alanna should be completely subservient to him, like he's being possessed by Joren from the future. And then he goes right back to his likable self, making it even weirder.



** After [[spoiler:Tunstall]] is revealed as a traitor in ''Mastiff'', Beka is told that one day she'll also face a decision where the morality of betraying her oath won't seem as clear cut. She dismisses it as a cheap excuse, and since this is the end of her story, we never find out if it actually happened.

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** After [[spoiler:Tunstall]] is revealed as a traitor in ''Mastiff'', Beka is told that one day she'll also face a decision where the morality of betraying her oath won't seem as clear cut. She dismisses it as a cheap excuse, and since this is the end of her story, we never find out if it actually happened.



* UnfortunateImplications: Some readers of the Trickster books [[http://www.amithaknight.com/2011/01/book-review-tricksters-choice-by-tamora-pierce-spoilers/ have]] [[http://girlsincapes.com/2014/10/01/el-problematicfave/ noted]] the MightyWhitey issues therein, with white Aly being the only one who can catalyze the brown-skinned raka into open rebellion. Although it's made clear (particularly in the second book) that plans have been going on for years and she's one part of a big picture, her being treated as a priceless spying genius in Book 1 when she makes some big blunders (like trying to blend in with "brownface" and being found out immediately) doesn't help.

to:

* UnfortunateImplications: Some readers of the Trickster books [[http://www.amithaknight.com/2011/01/book-review-tricksters-choice-by-tamora-pierce-spoilers/ have]] [[http://girlsincapes.com/2014/10/01/el-problematicfave/ noted]] the MightyWhitey issues therein, with white Aly being the only one who can catalyze the brown-skinned raka into open rebellion. Although it's made clear (particularly in the second book) that plans have been going on for years and she's one part of a big picture, her being treated as a priceless spying genius in Book 1 when she makes some big blunders (like trying to blend in with "brownface" and being found out immediately) doesn't help.make this harder to swallow.



** In ''Protector of the Small'', [[spoiler:Alanna is the one sending Kel all her gear]]. Some fans were actually surprised to realize this was even supposed to be a twist.
** In ''Bloodhound'', Beka learns early on that a man named Hanse is part of the cole operation. Then she meets a man from Port Caynn named Hanse, but somehow completely fails to make the connection, and the inevitable reveal that he's ''the'' Hanse is played like it's supposed to be a surprise. Although we're told that Hanse is a common name, OneSteveLimit is in play, so it probably would have worked better if it was a name readers themselves recognized as common.

to:

** In ''Protector of the Small'', [[spoiler:Alanna is the one sending Kel all her gear]]. Some fans were actually surprised to realize this was even supposed to be a twist.
twist. Who else would be doing it?
** In ''Bloodhound'', Beka learns early on that a man named Hanse is part of the cole operation. Then she meets a man from Port Caynn named Hanse, but somehow completely fails to make the connection, and the inevitable reveal that he's ''the'' Hanse is played like it's supposed to be a surprise. Although we're told that Hanse is a common name, OneSteveLimit is in play, so it probably would have worked better if it was a name readers themselves recognized as common.
10th Aug '15 10:52:07 AM ChaoticNovelist
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* DesignatedHero: Nawat in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes such a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as babies) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly and the team of experienced nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his CulturalPosturing. He also laments that it's hard to lie to his wife because she has the Sight. His childish behavior makes it really hard to sympathize with his later struggle over whether or not to commit infanticide.



* {{Wangst}}: Aly whining about Nawat being sent away to serve a more useful purpose, despite Nawat himself clearly being unhappy where he was and wanting to be more useful. She realizes how ridiculous it is later.

to:

* {{Wangst}}: ***Nawat and Aly have some human/crow child rearing conflict in the short story bearing his name. The BlueAndOrangeMorality of crows is a big part of the plot, of course. However, Nawat makes such a fuss over how his children are crows (even though they came out as babies) and how much better crow methods are that he won't listen to anything Aly and the team of experienced nurses have to say on child care, goes behind her back to do things the crow way, and acts like ''she's'' the bad guy because she has the temerity to object to him secretly holding their kids out of the two-story window in lieu of a diaper (which causes a diplomatic incident) when the whole issue could have been resolved if they'd discussed it rationally without his CulturalPosturing.
* {{Wangst}}:
**Aly
whining about Nawat being sent away to serve a more useful purpose, despite Nawat himself clearly being unhappy where he was and wanting to be more useful. She realizes how ridiculous it is later.
27th Jul '15 2:16:34 PM StFan
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** At the end of ''Mastiff'' George Cooper is warned that he will come to deeply regret the path he's chosen. A year later the series began to be covered on MarkDoesStuff, and the horrified reaction of him and most of the commenters toward George and Alanna's StalkingIsLove romance caused Pierce to indeed deeply regret that she'd written the story that way.

to:

** At the end of ''Mastiff'' George Cooper is warned that he will come to deeply regret the path he's chosen. A year later the series began to be covered on MarkDoesStuff, Blog/MarkDoesStuff, and the horrified reaction of him and most of the commenters toward George and Alanna's StalkingIsLove romance caused Pierce to indeed deeply regret that she'd written the story that way.
7th Jul '15 7:29:50 AM Pren
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Added DiffLines:

*** And she actually wasn't even satisfied with this, and put another such relationship into the book "Cold Fire" in her other series ''Literatue/CircleOfMagic''.
7th May '15 11:49:09 AM eowynjedi
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** Aly does provide an unusually straight example. She sails through her whole story with hardly any real challenge, up against a group of completely incompetent villains, and even on the rare occasion when something does go wrong, it ultimately makes things easier for her, ie [[spoiler:Sarai running away when Dove would make a much better queen anyway, and Dunevon's ship sinking, which saves her from having to decide what to do with him after his family is overthrown.]]Unlike the other Tortall heroines, her story starts with her chosen skill set already fully formed rather than spending a book or two seeing how she became such a great spy. This makes it worse because readers don't see her as a "rookie" at the start like the others.

to:

** Aly does provide an unusually straight example. She sails through her whole story with hardly any real challenge, up against a group of completely incompetent villains, and even on the rare occasion when something does go wrong, it ultimately makes things easier for her, ie [[spoiler:Sarai running away when Dove would make a much better queen anyway, and Dunevon's ship sinking, which saves her from having to decide what to do with him after his family is overthrown.]]Unlike the other Tortall heroines, her story starts with her chosen skill set already fully formed rather than spending a book or two seeing how she became such a great spy. This makes it worse because readers don't see her as a "rookie" at the start like the others.others (and so when she makes mistakes, which she does, her spying genius comes off as InformedAbility).
6th Feb '15 2:36:01 PM ACW
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* CompleteMonster:
** Duke Roger, Alanna's ArchNemesis from the first quartet, was originally heir of his cousin King Roald before the birth of Prince Jon bumped him down the line of succession, and he stops at nothing to get his place back. He creates a MysticalPlague that kills many in the city of Corus before it reaches its intended target, the royal family - deliberately targeting them only when many others have been affected already so that the palace Healers are too weak to save Jon's life. When this fails, Roger's second attempt on his cousin's life involves goading Jon into getting ''himself'' killed by exploring a cursed city (despite a local having given warning about it earlier). Alanna foils this too, so Roger sends multiple {{Animal Assassin}}s after her, tries to drown her, turns her friend Alex against her so that ''he'' tries to kill her while sparring, and helps create a war with Tusaine so he can pull a UriahGambit on both of them. After the war is ended without his intended results, Roger casts a wasting sickness on his lawful aunt, the Queen Lianne - said sickness induced via [[NightmareFuel a wax doll of the Queen, being periodically run under a stream of running water that slowly drains her life force]]; this wrecks her already-poor health enough that she dies little over a year after the spell has been ended. When Alanna uncovers this plot and finally exposes him, [[spoiler:she kills him in a TrialByCombat]], but that doesn't end it. When Roger returns in the last become he has become a full-blown OmnicidalManiac, who gives up regaining the throne in favor of destroying Tortall with an earthquake out of spite — not that his own followers (save [[TheDragon Alex]]) are told, most thinking that they're participating in a standard usurper plot and don't realize he cares nothing for them either.
** Vinson of Genlith was already a bully in Joren's gang, but we learn in ''Page'' that he's also a sexual predator, attempting to rape Lalasa. In ''Squire'', the Chamber of the Ordeal forces him to confess to raping two commoner women and beating a third by inflicting on him the injuries he inflicted on ''them''—the text describes numerous ugly cuts and bruises occurring on his body, so we know just what he did to them. Even then, he doesn't have any actual remorse and tries to [[UsefulNotes/VictimBlaming blame them]] for somehow inciting him to attack.
** Blayce the Gallan is the TheHeavy of ''Lady Knight'', a small and cruel man with a magical aptitude in Necromancy. Booted from the City of the Gods by his superiors out of disgust for the way he used his talent, he turned to Tortall's northerly neighbour, Scanra, and swore himself to the newly-crowned King Maggur. Offering his services in exchange for land and wealth, he hires a band of mercenaries to both protect himself and enforce his rule over the village overlooked by the keep Maggur gave him. Revelling in the power his position has given him, he goes a step further by having the villagers' children forcibly taken from their families - attempts to rescue them result in the rescuees being [[CruelAndUnusualDeath flayed and tied to a wall until death claims them]]. When the children are brought to him, he gives an outward appearance of treating them well - apparently even decieving Stenmun, his right-hand man - when he has them bathed, [[FridgeHorror touching them inappropriately]] as he tells them that [[BlatantLies they will be given luxury and kindness under him]]. What he truly does is have the children's souls sucked out of their bodies, [[PoweredByAForsakenChild entrapping them within monstrous mechanical devices]] that he provides to the Scanran militia when Maggur invades Tortall - the destruction of any one of these results in the soul being released, crying desperately in confusion for his or her parents before passing on. When Blayce runs out of children in his own backwater village, he resorts to having the Tortallan refugees sheltered under Keladry of Mindelan captured, intending to use ''their'' children to continue powering his devices. Blayce's monstrosity is highlighted in the disgust the villagers have for him, knowing that he specifically uses minors not out of pragmatism, but out of the enjoyment it gives him to manipulate their innocent naivety and the paedophilic undertones in his physical intimacy with the children. A remorseless, cowardly and sociopathic murderer, Blayce and the men he employs repulse Kel so much that she leaves their corpses to be desecrated by Stormwings, even when most enemies she'd faced had been given proper funeral rites.
** Imajane Rittevon is an example of TheCaligula being a genetic trait. Anyone she deems rebellious, even former friends or longtime aides, is subject to being nailed to a post on the docks as an Example. Hundreds of raka in the countryside are killed by stretching an ''already'' awful law beyond its limit, and city raka who gather even under innocent circumstances are violently dispersed. When Duke Nomru politely suggests being mildly less horrible, she throws him in prison. Finally, [[spoiler: she and Rubinyan have Dunevon and Elsren assassinated to make themselves the sole monarchs]] and do so in a cruel, sloppy way that endangers others. Though her husband Rubinyan shares in most of these (including the last one) and have the nerve to pretend sympathy over it, he at least tries to restrain her more impolitic cruelties and might have had some genuine friendship for the Balitangs in the past.
** Crookshank, one of the two {{Serial Killer}}s from ''Terrier'', is already a slumlord who forced at least one debtor to sell his wife into slavery, [[DrivenToSuicide driving her to suicide]]. He's rich, but when he discovers fire opals under the city he lures in jobless poor folk to mine them in secret, then kills them all and starts over when each mine is spent. He does this several times over the course of the book, killing seven to ten people each time. His great-grandson Rolond is killed by the Shadow Snake when Crookshank refuses to pay a ransom of opals. When the Snake takes his grandson Herrun, Crookshank continues to refuse out of pride and greed—when Beka tries talking some sense into him, he threatens to have her raped and murdered.
** The "Shadow Snake," the other SerialKiller from ''Terrier'', goes after poor Lower City families by abducting their children to [[{{Greed}} extort their valuables]]—usually a family heirloom or a bauble saved up for, the only slightly valuable thing they own. If not paid, the Snake ''will'' [[WouldHurtAChild kill the child]], and if the family has others, she'll take them until she gets what she wants. She [[RevengeByProxy kills Crookshank's great-grandson]] in part because [[DisproportionateRetribution she has a grudge against the child's mother]]. When she is finally unmasked and apprehended, she has no remorse and justifies her actions with "I deserve nice things more than they do and that bitch made the success of my business more difficult." And while she's being arrested, she also shows herself as an {{abusive parent|s}}.

to:

* CompleteMonster:
** Duke Roger, Alanna's ArchNemesis from the first quartet, was originally heir of his cousin King Roald before the birth of Prince Jon bumped him down the line of succession, and he stops at nothing to get his place back. He creates a MysticalPlague that kills many in the city of Corus before it reaches its intended target, the royal family - deliberately targeting them only when many others have been affected already so that the palace Healers are too weak to save Jon's life. When this fails, Roger's second attempt on his cousin's life involves goading Jon into getting ''himself'' killed by exploring a cursed city (despite a local having given warning about it earlier). Alanna foils this too, so Roger sends multiple {{Animal Assassin}}s after her, tries to drown her, turns her friend Alex against her so that ''he'' tries to kill her while sparring, and helps create a war with Tusaine so he can pull a UriahGambit on both of them. After the war is ended without his intended results, Roger casts a wasting sickness on his lawful aunt, the Queen Lianne - said sickness induced via [[NightmareFuel a wax doll of the Queen, being periodically run under a stream of running water that slowly drains her life force]]; this wrecks her already-poor health enough that she dies little over a year after the spell has been ended. When Alanna uncovers this plot and finally exposes him, [[spoiler:she kills him in a TrialByCombat]], but that doesn't end it. When Roger returns in the last become he has become a full-blown OmnicidalManiac, who gives up regaining the throne in favor of destroying Tortall with an earthquake out of spite — not that his own followers (save [[TheDragon Alex]]) are told, most thinking that they're participating in a standard usurper plot and don't realize he cares nothing for them either.
** Vinson of Genlith was already a bully in Joren's gang, but we learn in ''Page'' that he's also a sexual predator, attempting to rape Lalasa. In ''Squire'', the Chamber of the Ordeal forces him to confess to raping two commoner women and beating a third by inflicting on him the injuries he inflicted on ''them''—the text describes numerous ugly cuts and bruises occurring on his body, so we know just what he did to them. Even then, he doesn't have any actual remorse and tries to [[UsefulNotes/VictimBlaming blame them]] for somehow inciting him to attack.
** Blayce the Gallan is the TheHeavy of ''Lady Knight'', a small and cruel man with a magical aptitude in Necromancy. Booted from the City of the Gods by his superiors out of disgust for the way he used his talent, he turned to Tortall's northerly neighbour, Scanra, and swore himself to the newly-crowned King Maggur. Offering his services in exchange for land and wealth, he hires a band of mercenaries to both protect himself and enforce his rule over the village overlooked by the keep Maggur gave him. Revelling in the power his position has given him, he goes a step further by having the villagers' children forcibly taken from their families - attempts to rescue them result in the rescuees being [[CruelAndUnusualDeath flayed and tied to a wall until death claims them]]. When the children are brought to him, he gives an outward appearance of treating them well - apparently even decieving Stenmun, his right-hand man - when he has them bathed, [[FridgeHorror touching them inappropriately]] as he tells them that [[BlatantLies they will be given luxury and kindness under him]]. What he truly does is have the children's souls sucked out of their bodies, [[PoweredByAForsakenChild entrapping them within monstrous mechanical devices]] that he provides to the Scanran militia when Maggur invades Tortall - the destruction of any one of these results in the soul being released, crying desperately in confusion for his or her parents before passing on. When Blayce runs out of children in his own backwater village, he resorts to having the Tortallan refugees sheltered under Keladry of Mindelan captured, intending to use ''their'' children to continue powering his devices. Blayce's monstrosity is highlighted in the disgust the villagers have for him, knowing that he specifically uses minors not out of pragmatism, but out of the enjoyment it gives him to manipulate their innocent naivety and the paedophilic undertones in his physical intimacy with the children. A remorseless, cowardly and sociopathic murderer, Blayce and the men he employs repulse Kel so much that she leaves their corpses to be desecrated by Stormwings, even when most enemies she'd faced had been given proper funeral rites.
** Imajane Rittevon is an example of TheCaligula being a genetic trait. Anyone she deems rebellious, even former friends or longtime aides, is subject to being nailed to a post on the docks as an Example. Hundreds of raka in the countryside are killed by stretching an ''already'' awful law beyond its limit, and city raka who gather even under innocent circumstances are violently dispersed. When Duke Nomru politely suggests being mildly less horrible, she throws him in prison. Finally, [[spoiler: she and Rubinyan have Dunevon and Elsren assassinated to make themselves the sole monarchs]] and do so in a cruel, sloppy way that endangers others. Though her husband Rubinyan shares in most of these (including the last one) and have the nerve to pretend sympathy over it, he at least tries to restrain her more impolitic cruelties and might have had some genuine friendship for the Balitangs in the past.
** Crookshank, one of the two {{Serial Killer}}s from ''Terrier'', is already a slumlord who forced at least one debtor to sell his wife into slavery, [[DrivenToSuicide driving her to suicide]]. He's rich, but when he discovers fire opals under the city he lures in jobless poor folk to mine them in secret, then kills them all and starts over when each mine is spent. He does this several times over the course of the book, killing seven to ten people each time. His great-grandson Rolond is killed by the Shadow Snake when Crookshank refuses to pay a ransom of opals. When the Snake takes his grandson Herrun, Crookshank continues to refuse out of pride and greed—when Beka tries talking some sense into him, he threatens to have her raped and murdered.
** The "Shadow Snake," the other SerialKiller from ''Terrier'', goes after poor Lower City families by abducting their children to [[{{Greed}} extort their valuables]]—usually a family heirloom or a bauble saved up for, the only slightly valuable thing they own. If not paid, the Snake ''will'' [[WouldHurtAChild kill the child]], and if the family has others, she'll take them until she gets what she wants. She [[RevengeByProxy kills Crookshank's great-grandson]] in part because [[DisproportionateRetribution she has a grudge against the child's mother]]. When she is finally unmasked and apprehended, she has no remorse and justifies her actions with "I deserve nice things more than they do and that bitch made the success of my business more difficult." And while she's being arrested, she also shows herself as an {{abusive parent|s}}.
CompleteMonster: See [[Monster/TortallUniverse here]].
This list shows the last 10 events of 223. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.TortallUniverse