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** [[spoiler: Joe Carroll ''again'', presumably for the final time]] in Season 3. [[spoiler: In the end, it isn't a gunshot or an epic fistfight that kills him. After his hostage situation is resolved, he's quietly led to the public execution chamber and lethally injected [[DiesWideOpen as he stares lifelessly at Ryan.]]

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** [[spoiler: Joe Carroll ''again'', presumably for the final time]] in Season 3. [[spoiler: In the end, it isn't a gunshot or an epic fistfight that kills him. After his hostage situation is resolved, he's quietly led to the public execution chamber and lethally injected [[DiesWideOpen as he stares lifelessly at Ryan.]]]]]]
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Added DiffLines:

** [[spoiler: Joe Carroll ''again'', presumably for the final time]] in Season 3. [[spoiler: In the end, it isn't a gunshot or an epic fistfight that kills him. After his hostage situation is resolved, he's quietly led to the public execution chamber and lethally injected [[DiesWideOpen as he stares lifelessly at Ryan.]]
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** [[spoiler: Emma's RasputinianDeath in the penultimate episode of Season 2 at the hands of Claire. Stabbed in the gut, thrown out a window and then finished off with a wooden stake.]]

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** [[spoiler: Emma's Later, in Season 2's penultimate episode, [[spoiler:Emma's RasputinianDeath in the penultimate episode of Season 2 at the hands of Claire. Stabbed Claire: stabbed in the gut, thrown out a window and then finished off with a wooden stake.]]stake]].



** In Season 3, Some fans were hoping for [[spoiler:Neil Perry]] to be in the show for quite a while, especially since he was a calm, FauxAffablyEvil killer [[BewareTheQuietOnes who never rose his voice]] and might've evolved into a HeroKiller. Instead, he commits SuicideByCop in the second episode he appears in.
** [[spoiler:Dr. Arthur Strauss]] was set up as the BigBad for Season 3, and considering that [[spoiler:he's Joe's mentor]], he could've proven to be a terrifying villain. Instead, [[spoiler:he was garroted to death in the episode ''directly after'' the one where he finally got out of prison for arguably the same reason Jacob was killed: shock value]].

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** In Season 3, Some some fans were hoping for [[spoiler:Neil Perry]] to be in the show stick around for quite a while, especially since he was a calm, FauxAffablyEvil killer [[BewareTheQuietOnes who never rose his voice]] and might've evolved into a HeroKiller. Instead, he commits SuicideByCop in the second episode he appears in.
** [[spoiler:Dr. Arthur Strauss]] was set up as the BigBad for Season 3, and considering that [[spoiler:he's Joe's mentor]], he could've proven to be a terrifying villain. Instead, [[spoiler:he was [[DroppedABridgeOnHim garroted to death death]] in the episode ''directly after'' the one where he finally got out of prison for arguably the same reason Jacob was killed: shock value]].



** Meghan and Olivia.

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** Meghan Leeds and Olivia.Olivia Warren in Season 1.
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** Sam Underwood [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiwZJmqcMb0#t=57 has said]] that during the audition process for Season 2, Mark and Luke were advertised as only one character with [[SplitPersonality split personalities]], in order to avoid spoilers. Come Season 3, and that's exactly what Mark has become.

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** Sam Underwood [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiwZJmqcMb0#t=57 has said]] that during the audition process for Season 2, Mark and Luke were advertised as only one character with [[SplitPersonality split personalities]], a SplitPersonality, in order to avoid spoilers. Come Season 3, and that's exactly what Mark has become.



** Many of the scenes involving Micah's over-the-top-crazy cult in Season 2. It helps that Joe and Emma obviously aren't taking Micah's beliefs seriously.

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** Many of the scenes involving Micah's the over-the-top-crazy Korban cult in Season 2. It helps that Joe and Emma obviously aren't taking Micah's their beliefs seriously.



* TakeThatScrappy: The new Followers don't think much of Emma.

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* TakeThatScrappy: The In Season 2, the new Followers don't think much of Emma.



** [[spoiler:Debra's death]] disappointed a good amount of viewers who hoped that [[spoiler:she]] would have been [[EvilAllAlong revealed to be a Follower.]]

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** [[spoiler:Debra's death]] disappointed a good amount of viewers who hoped that [[spoiler:she]] would have been [[EvilAllAlong revealed to be a Follower.]]Follower]].



** [[spoiler:Lily Gray]]'s death disappointed some fans who wanted [[spoiler:her to confront Joe and maybe even become the main BigBad for Season 3]].
** Some fans were hoping for [[spoiler:Neil]] to be in the show for quite a while, especially since he was a calm, FauxAffablyEvil killer [[BewareTheQuietOnes who never rose his voice]] and might've evolved into a HeroKiller. Instead, he commits SuicideByCop in the second episode he appears in.
** [[spoiler:Dr. Arthur Strauss]] was clearly intended to be the BigBad for Season 3, and considering that [[spoiler:he's Joe's mentor]], he could've proven to be a terrifying villain. Instead, [[spoiler:he's garroted to death in the episode ''directly after'' the one where he finally got out of prison for arguably the same reason why Jacob was killed: shock value]].

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** In Season 2, [[spoiler:Lily Gray]]'s death disappointed some fans who wanted [[spoiler:her to confront Joe and maybe even become the main BigBad for Season 3]].
** In Season 3, Some fans were hoping for [[spoiler:Neil]] [[spoiler:Neil Perry]] to be in the show for quite a while, especially since he was a calm, FauxAffablyEvil killer [[BewareTheQuietOnes who never rose his voice]] and might've evolved into a HeroKiller. Instead, he commits SuicideByCop in the second episode he appears in.
** [[spoiler:Dr. Arthur Strauss]] was clearly intended to be set up as the BigBad for Season 3, and considering that [[spoiler:he's Joe's mentor]], he could've proven to be a terrifying villain. Instead, [[spoiler:he's [[spoiler:he was garroted to death in the episode ''directly after'' the one where he finally got out of prison for arguably the same reason why Jacob was killed: shock value]].

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** "Angel" by Music/{{Sepultura}} (''Chapter Two'').



** "Oats in the Water" by Ben Howard (''New Blood'').
** "Promise Land" by Hannah Miller [[note]]Not exactly the same genre as the others on this list, but still a very lovely song[[/note]] (''A Hostile Witness'').



** Many people believed that [[spoiler:Joe Carroll was still alive at the end of Season 1. They were right]].
** [[spoiler:Claire was placed under heavy witness protection, too, and is shown to be just hiding halfway through the second season.]]

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** Many people believed that [[spoiler:Joe Carroll Carroll]] was still alive at the end of Season 1. They were right]].
right.
** [[spoiler:Claire was placed under heavy witness protection, too, [[spoiler:Claire]] got this treatment in Season 2, and is shown [[spoiler:was indeed revealed to be just hiding halfway through the second season.]]season, having been placed under heavy witness protection]].
** After the Season 3 episode "Evermore," [[spoiler:the fandom became rife with speculation that Joe secretly survived his execution]].

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** "David" by Noah Gundersen (''Reunion'').
* BaseBreaker: Joe Carroll. He's either a brilliant DangerouslyGenreSavvy villain who's well-loved for his chemistry with Ryan Hardy and for his ability [[XanatosSpeedChess to quickly make any situation work in his favor]], or he's a boring CreatorsPet with the same death-craving subplots who's stealing the spotlight from other, more interesting killers.



* EnsembleDarkhorse: Jacob Wells. It helps that he's one of the few cult members who isn't AxCrazy, who's AffablyEvil, and whose character is fleshed out the most in Season 1.

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* EnsembleDarkhorse: EnsembleDarkhorse:
**
Jacob Wells. It helps that he's one of the few cult members who isn't AxCrazy, who's AffablyEvil, and whose character is fleshed out the most in Season 1.
** Fans are already taking a liking to Theo, Dr. Strauss's best student. He's the exact ''opposite'' of every other cliché AxCrazy serial killer in the show, he has various PetTheDog ''and'' KickTheDog moments, and his calm, cold attitude makes him quite frightening compared to many other killers. It helps that he's played by Michael Ealy.


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* SophomoreSlump: Season 2 wasn't as well-received as Season 1, in large part due to DarknessInducedAudienceApathy, predictable twists, and for having several side characters who either weren't as interesting as Season 1's supporting characters, [[WeHardlyKnewYe or didn't last long enough for the audience to see their full potential]].


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** Some fans were hoping for [[spoiler:Neil]] to be in the show for quite a while, especially since he was a calm, FauxAffablyEvil killer [[BewareTheQuietOnes who never rose his voice]] and might've evolved into a HeroKiller. Instead, he commits SuicideByCop in the second episode he appears in.


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** Duncan decides to [[spoiler:take his niece hostage in broad daylight, directly in front of Ryan and Mike with a knife, instead of waiting until the coast is clear. And he stands right beside a hot cup of coffee within her niece's grasp. He's subdued ''seconds'' later.]]
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** [[spoiler:Dr. Arthur Strauss]] in Season 3. [[spoiler:Despite being the BiggerBad for the ''entire series'', not to mention Joe's mentor, [[SurprisinglySuddenDeath he's killed very unexpectedly]] by Theo the second he turns his back on him]].


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** [[spoiler:Dr. Arthur Strauss]] was clearly intended to be the BigBad for Season 3, and considering that [[spoiler:he's Joe's mentor]], he could've proven to be a terrifying villain. Instead, [[spoiler:he's garroted to death in the episode ''directly after'' the one where he finally got out of prison for arguably the same reason why Jacob was killed: shock value]].
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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{Big Bad Wannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, {{Idiot Plot}}ting and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big knife to the gut in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.

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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{Big Bad Wannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, {{Idiot Plot}}ting and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big knife to the gut in season two, two (and cut down to less than half in season three), albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.
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** Sam Underwood [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiwZJmqcMb0#t=57 has said]] that during the audition process for Season 2, Mark and Luke were advertised as only one character with [[SplitPersonality split personalities]], in order to avoid spoilers. Come Season 3, and that's exactly what Mark has become.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, {{Idiot Plot}}ting and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big knife to the gut in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.

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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s {{Big Bad Wannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, {{Idiot Plot}}ting and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big knife to the gut in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.

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* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:

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* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:
** [[spoiler:Debra's death]] disappointed a good amount of viewers who hoped that [[spoiler:she]] would have been [[EvilAllAlong revealed to be a Follower.]]

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* CompleteMonster: Joe Carroll likes to envision himself as a WickedCultured [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and architect of darkness and evil. In truth, he is a megalomaniac SerialKiller who killed 14 girls before being caught, and later escaped from jail by killing five guards and hunted down his 15th intended victim, [[EyeScream removing her eyes]] and brutally torturing her to death. It is then revealed that Carroll has his own cult of serial killers he rules over, encouraging them to "write their own chapters" by committing murder and personally teaching them how to effectively kill a human being. Carroll casually discards his followers when he determines it's necessary, having no remorse for leaving them to their fates or forcing them to give their lives for him. A consummate actor, Carroll manipulates his son Joey, with the intention of raising him as a killer. And once Claire rejects Carroll's designs on her, he plans to kill her in front of Ryan. When Claire blames herself for not seeing what Joe was sooner, saying she feels like she killed all the girls herself, Carroll "comforts" her by [[BaitTheDog murdering a man in front of her]] to show her what killing is really like, telling her not to take credit for his deeds. Joe Carroll believes people are just pawns or characters in the book he writes and that he can do with them whatever he wants for a good story.

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* CompleteMonster: [[BigBad Joe Carroll Carroll]] likes to envision himself as a WickedCultured [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and architect of darkness and evil. In truth, he is a megalomaniac SerialKiller who killed 14 girls before being caught, and later escaped agent Ryan caught him ten years ago, setting off their mutual obsession with one another. After escaping from jail by killing five guards and hunted guards, Carroll hunts down his 15th intended victim, the only victim to escape him and brutally tortures her to death- first [[EyeScream removing her eyes]] and brutally torturing her to death. eyes]]. It is then revealed that Carroll has his own cult of serial killers he rules over, encouraging them to "write their own chapters" by committing murder and personally teaching teaches them how to effectively kill a human being. Carroll casually discards his followers when he determines it's necessary, having no remorse for leaving them to their fates or forcing them to give their lives for him. A consummate actor, Carroll manipulates his son Joey, with the intention of raising him as a killer. And killer and refers to Joey as "his best trump card." For his ex-wife, once Claire she rejects Carroll's designs on her, he plans her by stabbing him, Carroll decides to kill her as well in front of Ryan. When Claire blames he hears Carol blame herself for not seeing what Joe was sooner, saying she feels like she killed all the girls herself, Carroll "comforts" seems to comfort her by [[BaitTheDog murdering before killing a man in front of her]] to show her what killing someone is really like, telling her not to take credit for his deeds. Joe Carroll believes people are just pawns or characters in the book he writes and that he can do with them whatever he wants for a good story.

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Discuss here


* CompleteMonster:
** Joe Carroll likes to envision himself as a WickedCultured [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and architect of darkness and evil. In truth, he is a megalomaniac SerialKiller who killed 14 girls before being caught, and later escaped from jail by killing five guards and hunted down his 15th intended victim, [[EyeScream removing her eyes]] and brutally torturing her to death. It is then revealed that Carroll has his own cult of serial killers he rules over, encouraging them to "write their own chapters" by committing murder and personally teaching them how to effectively kill a human being. Carroll casually discards his followers when he determines it's necessary, having no remorse for leaving them to their fates or forcing them to give their lives for him. A consummate actor, Carroll manipulates his son Joey, with the intention of raising him as a killer. And once Claire rejects Carroll's designs on her, he plans to kill her in front of Ryan. When Claire blames herself for not seeing what Joe was sooner, saying she feels like she killed all the girls herself, Carroll "comforts" her by [[BaitTheDog murdering a man in front of her]] to show her what killing is really like, telling her not to take credit for his deeds. Joe Carroll believes people are just pawns or characters in the book he writes and that he can do with them whatever he wants for a good story.
** ''Lily Gray.'' If nonchalantly slitting the throat of the father of fan favorite Weston and [[spoiler:torturing and killing Mandy]] wasn't bad enough, her "family" of psychotic children that she can order around at a whim and her absolute lack of remorse about anything she does makes her this. Hell, there's some moments when she seems to be a bigger monster than BigBad Joe Carroll himself.

to:

* CompleteMonster:
**
CompleteMonster: Joe Carroll likes to envision himself as a WickedCultured [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and architect of darkness and evil. In truth, he is a megalomaniac SerialKiller who killed 14 girls before being caught, and later escaped from jail by killing five guards and hunted down his 15th intended victim, [[EyeScream removing her eyes]] and brutally torturing her to death. It is then revealed that Carroll has his own cult of serial killers he rules over, encouraging them to "write their own chapters" by committing murder and personally teaching them how to effectively kill a human being. Carroll casually discards his followers when he determines it's necessary, having no remorse for leaving them to their fates or forcing them to give their lives for him. A consummate actor, Carroll manipulates his son Joey, with the intention of raising him as a killer. And once Claire rejects Carroll's designs on her, he plans to kill her in front of Ryan. When Claire blames herself for not seeing what Joe was sooner, saying she feels like she killed all the girls herself, Carroll "comforts" her by [[BaitTheDog murdering a man in front of her]] to show her what killing is really like, telling her not to take credit for his deeds. Joe Carroll believes people are just pawns or characters in the book he writes and that he can do with them whatever he wants for a good story.
** ''Lily Gray.'' If nonchalantly slitting the throat of the father of fan favorite Weston and [[spoiler:torturing and killing Mandy]] wasn't bad enough, her "family" of psychotic children that she can order around at a whim and her absolute lack of remorse about anything she does makes her this. Hell, there's some moments when she seems to be a bigger monster than BigBad Joe Carroll himself.
story.
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** Even more so in late Season 2, when [[spoiler:Joe refuses to kill Ryan who he considers his best friend and even saves his life in the Season 2 finale. Ryan decides not to kill Joe either.]]

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** [[spoiler:Joe Carroll in Season 2. Again. After a brief fight with Hardy, Hardy knocks him to the floor and points a gun at him. Carroll has a VillainousBreakdown and begs Hardy to kill him. He doesn't, and Joe is arrested shortly afterwards]].



* EnsembleDarkhorse: Jacob Wells.

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* EnsembleDarkhorse: Jacob Wells. It helps that he's one of the few cult members who isn't AxCrazy, who's AffablyEvil, and whose character is fleshed out the most in Season 1.



** [[spoiler: Emma's RasputianDeath in the penultimate episode of Season 2 at the hands of Claire. Stabbed in the gut, thrown out a window and then finished off with a wooden stake.]]

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** [[spoiler: Emma's RasputianDeath RasputinianDeath in the penultimate episode of Season 2 at the hands of Claire. Stabbed in the gut, thrown out a window and then finished off with a wooden stake.]]



* TooCoolToLive: [[spoiler:Micah, the [[EvilIsHammy over-the-top]] FauxAffablyEvil cult leader who wanted to be "famous" like Joe and Lily]].

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* TooCoolToLive: TooCoolToLive:
** [[spoiler:[[HeelFaceDoorSlam Jacob Wells]], the only cultist who had a heart, who eventually knew what was right from wrong, and who was arguably one of the nicest villains in the entire series.]]
**
[[spoiler:Micah, the [[EvilIsHammy over-the-top]] FauxAffablyEvil cult leader who wanted to be "famous" like Joe and Lily]].



** If Emma had killed [[spoiler:Claire ''before'' she shot Robert, she might still be alive, and her plan to convince Joe that Claire ambushed her and killed Robert would've worked out flawlessly]].




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** Preston Tanner. His possible lover is murdered right in front of him, he's kidnapped by the Korban cult, he's [[spoiler:forced to kill a woman so Joe won't kill him, and then he gets to watch as his father slits his throat right in front of him. And then Joe shoots him in the head because he couldn't stand him crying]]. And all because he was the son of a man who called out Joe on live TV.
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* DesignatedHero: As detailed above, Ryan and anyone in his orbit will inevitably become this as time goes on, since the show seems to share [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality its protagonist's warped views on justifiable force in the line of duty]].

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* DesignatedHero: As detailed above, Ryan and anyone in his orbit will inevitably become this as time goes on, since the show seems to share [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality its protagonist's his warped views on justifiable force in the line of duty]].
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* DesignatedHero: As detailed above, Ryan and anyone in his orbit will inevitably become this as time goes on, since the show seems to share [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality its protagonist's views on morality]].

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* DesignatedHero: As detailed above, Ryan and anyone in his orbit will inevitably become this as time goes on, since the show seems to share [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality its protagonist's warped views on morality]].justifiable force in the line of duty]].
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* DesignatedHero: As detailed above, Ryan and anyone in his orbit will inevitably become this as time goes on, since the show seems to share [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality its protagonist's views on morality]].
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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, {{Idiot Plot}}ting and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big whack upside the head in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.

to:

* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, {{Idiot Plot}}ting and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big whack upside knife to the head gut in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, {{Idiot Plot}}s and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big whack upside the head in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.

to:

* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, {{Idiot Plot}}s Plot}}ting and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big whack upside the head in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, PlotInducedStupidity and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big whack upside the head in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.

to:

* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, PlotInducedStupidity {{Idiot Plot}}s and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big whack upside the head in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, PlotInducedStupidity and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward.

to:

* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence; and civilian characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, PlotInducedStupidity and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward. As a result, the ratings took a big whack upside the head in season two, albeit no more so than anything else that aired on Fox in calendar year 2014.
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** [[spoiler: Emma's RasputianDeath in the penultimate episode of Season 2 at the hands of Claire. Stabbed in the gut, thrown out a window and then finished off with a wooden stake.]]

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* AntiClimaxBoss: [[spoiler:Lily Gray]] in Season 2. [[spoiler:For all her power and resources, she dies rather easily in "The Reaping," and her big showdown with Joe never even happens]].

to:

* AntiClimaxBoss: AntiClimaxBoss:
** Many fans were disappointed when Joe and Ryan's climactic fight in Season 1 abruptly ended with Joe becoming trapped in a ring of fire and presumably dying in an explosion. However, this was [[SubvertedTrope subverted]] when Joe turned up alive in Season 2, leaving open the possibility for a more epic showdown.
**
[[spoiler:Lily Gray]] in Season 2. [[spoiler:For all her power and resources, she dies rather easily in "The Reaping," easily, and her big showdown confrontation with Joe never even happens]].



* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to BigBadWannabe (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'' though are not the most comfortable people to follow either- Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right and both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed, while Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence, and civilian character (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on for, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, PlotInducedStupidity and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward.
* DracoInLeatherPants: [[FanNickname The murder twins]] have been nothing but brutal, twisted, sadistic psychopaths since their first appearance on the show, but that doesn't stop some of the fanbase from squealing over them, even as they torture [[TheWoobie Mandy]], and some of them were actually horrified when Weston beat one of them to a pulp.

to:

* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: The villains are AxCrazy homicidal maniacs who gleefully commit ''very'' brutal on-screen murders and we see a lot of the story [[VillainProtagonist from their point of view]]; by and large they are selfish, unrepentant and prone to MoralMyopia, and their competence ranges from {{Villain Sue}}s to BigBadWannabe {{BigBadWannabe}}s (Joe himself starts as the former and devolves into the latter). The ''heroes'' though ''heroes'', though, are not the most comfortable people to follow either- either: Hardy is a vengeful KnightTemplar prone to ProtagonistCentredMorality who allows the villain to dictate his moves; the FBI have many fair WhatTheHellHero critiques to make of him, but they tend to be incompetent and stupid in their own right and as both they and Hardy get many minor characters killed, while killed; Agent Weston and others become steadily more brutal due to Hardy's influence, influence; and civilian character characters (whether major like Claire or one-shoters) are out of their league and make dumb decisions to varying degrees. It becomes difficult to root for anyone the longer the story goes on for, on, particularly since the series so often relies on FridgeLogic, PlotInducedStupidity and DiabolusExMachina to move things forward.
forward.
* DracoInLeatherPants: DracoInLeatherPants:
**
[[FanNickname The murder twins]] have been nothing but brutal, twisted, sadistic psychopaths since their first appearance on the show, but that doesn't stop some of the fanbase from squealing over them, even as they torture [[TheWoobie Mandy]], and some of them were actually horrified when Weston beat one of them to a pulp. pulp.



* HesJustHiding: Show of hands: who thinks [[spoiler:Joe Carroll's still alive?]]
** [[spoiler: The second season promos certainly seem to think so - he even has a beard now!]]

to:

* HesJustHiding: Show of hands: who thinks HesJustHiding:
** Many people believed that
[[spoiler:Joe Carroll's Carroll was still alive?]]
** [[spoiler: The second season promos certainly seem to think so - he even has a beard now!]]
alive at the end of Season 1. They were right]].



** [[spoiler:Lily Gray]]'s death in Season 2 disappointed some fans who wanted [[spoiler:her to confront Joe and maybe even become the main BigBad for Season 3]].

to:

** [[spoiler:Lily Gray]]'s death in Season 2 disappointed some fans who wanted [[spoiler:her to confront Joe and maybe even become the main BigBad for Season 3]].

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* AntiClimaxBoss: [[spoiler:Lily Gray]] in Season 2. [[spoiler:For all her power and resources, she dies rather easily in "The Reaping," and her big showdown with Joe never even happens]].



** Joe Carroll likes to envision himself as a WickedCultured [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and architect of darkness and evil. In truth, he is a megalomaniac SerialKiller who killed 14 girls before being caught ten years ago by Ryan, setting off their mutual obsession with one another. After escaping from jail by killing five guards, Carroll hunts down the only victim to escape him and brutally tortures her to death- first [[EyeScream removing her eyes]]. It is revealed that Carroll has his own cult of serial killers he rules over, encouraging them to "write their own chapters" by committing murder and personally teaches them how to effectively kill a human being. Carroll casually discards his followers when he determines it's necessary, having no remorse leaving them to their fates or forcing them to give their lives for him. A consummate actor, Carroll manipulates his son Joey, with intention of raising him as a killer and refers to Joey as 'his best trump card.' For his ex-wife, once she rejects Carroll's designs on her by stabbing him, Carroll decides to kill her as well in front of Ryan. When he hears Claire blame herself for not seeing what Joe was sooner, saying she feels like she killed all the girls herself, Carroll seems to comfort her [[BaitTheDog before killing a man in front of her]] to show her what killing someone is really like, telling her not to take credit for his deeds. Joe Carroll believes people are just pawns or characters in the book he writes and that he can do with them whatever he wants for a good story.

to:

** Joe Carroll likes to envision himself as a WickedCultured [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and architect of darkness and evil. In truth, he is a megalomaniac SerialKiller who killed 14 girls before being caught ten years ago by Ryan, setting off their mutual obsession with one another. After escaping caught, and later escaped from jail by killing five guards, Carroll hunts guards and hunted down the only victim to escape him and brutally tortures her to death- first his 15th intended victim, [[EyeScream removing her eyes]]. eyes]] and brutally torturing her to death. It is then revealed that Carroll has his own cult of serial killers he rules over, encouraging them to "write their own chapters" by committing murder and personally teaches teaching them how to effectively kill a human being. Carroll casually discards his followers when he determines it's necessary, having no remorse for leaving them to their fates or forcing them to give their lives for him. A consummate actor, Carroll manipulates his son Joey, with the intention of raising him as a killer and refers to Joey as 'his best trump card.' For his ex-wife, killer. And once she Claire rejects Carroll's designs on her by stabbing him, Carroll decides her, he plans to kill her as well in front of Ryan. When he hears Claire blame blames herself for not seeing what Joe was sooner, saying she feels like she killed all the girls herself, Carroll seems to comfort "comforts" her by [[BaitTheDog before killing murdering a man in front of her]] to show her what killing someone is really like, telling her not to take credit for his deeds. Joe Carroll believes people are just pawns or characters in the book he writes and that he can do with them whatever he wants for a good story.


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** [[spoiler:Lily Gray]]'s death in Season 2 disappointed some fans who wanted [[spoiler:her to confront Joe and maybe even become the main BigBad for Season 3]].

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* CompleteMonster: Joe Carroll likes to envision himself as a WickedCultured [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and architect of darkness and evil. In truth, he is a megalomaniac SerialKiller who killed 14 girls before being caught ten years ago by Ryan, setting off their mutual obsession with one another. After escaping from jail by killing five guards, Carroll hunts down the only victim to escape him and brutally tortures her to death- first [[EyeScream removing her eyes]]. It is revealed that Carroll has his own cult of serial killers he rules over, encouraging them to "write their own chapters" by committing murder and personally teaches them how to effectively kill a human being. Carroll casually discards his followers when he determines it's necessary, having no remorse leaving them to their fates or forcing them to give their lives for him. A consummate actor, Carroll manipulates his son Joey, with intention of raising him as a killer and refers to Joey as 'his best trump card.' For his ex-wife, once she rejects Carroll's designs on her by stabbing him, Carroll decides to kill her as well in front of Ryan. When he hears Claire blame herself for not seeing what Joe was sooner, saying she feels like she killed all the girls herself, Carroll seems to comfort her [[BaitTheDog before killing a man in front of her]] to show her what killing someone is really like, telling her not to take credit for his deeds. Joe Carroll believes people are just pawns or characters in the book he writes and that he can do with them whatever he wants for a good story.
** ''Lily.'' If nonchalantly slitting the throat of the father of fan favorite Weston and [[spoiler:torturing and killing Mandy]] wasn't bad enough, her "family" of psychotic children that she can order around at a whim and her absolute lack of remorse about anything she does makes her this. Hell, there's some moments when she seems to be a bigger monster than BigBad Joe Carroll himself.

to:

* CompleteMonster: CompleteMonster:
**
Joe Carroll likes to envision himself as a WickedCultured [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and architect of darkness and evil. In truth, he is a megalomaniac SerialKiller who killed 14 girls before being caught ten years ago by Ryan, setting off their mutual obsession with one another. After escaping from jail by killing five guards, Carroll hunts down the only victim to escape him and brutally tortures her to death- first [[EyeScream removing her eyes]]. It is revealed that Carroll has his own cult of serial killers he rules over, encouraging them to "write their own chapters" by committing murder and personally teaches them how to effectively kill a human being. Carroll casually discards his followers when he determines it's necessary, having no remorse leaving them to their fates or forcing them to give their lives for him. A consummate actor, Carroll manipulates his son Joey, with intention of raising him as a killer and refers to Joey as 'his best trump card.' For his ex-wife, once she rejects Carroll's designs on her by stabbing him, Carroll decides to kill her as well in front of Ryan. When he hears Claire blame herself for not seeing what Joe was sooner, saying she feels like she killed all the girls herself, Carroll seems to comfort her [[BaitTheDog before killing a man in front of her]] to show her what killing someone is really like, telling her not to take credit for his deeds. Joe Carroll believes people are just pawns or characters in the book he writes and that he can do with them whatever he wants for a good story.
** ''Lily.''Lily Gray.'' If nonchalantly slitting the throat of the father of fan favorite Weston and [[spoiler:torturing and killing Mandy]] wasn't bad enough, her "family" of psychotic children that she can order around at a whim and her absolute lack of remorse about anything she does makes her this. Hell, there's some moments when she seems to be a bigger monster than BigBad Joe Carroll himself.



* {{Squick}}: When Joe kills [[spoiler:the Reverend in Season 2 (his first kill in over a year)]], he basically has an ''orgasm''. Yeek.



* {{Squick}}: When Joe kills [[spoiler:the Reverend in Season 2 (his first kill in over a year)]], he basically has an ''orgasm''. Yeek.
* UncannyValley: Those Poe masks. Given the genre, it's probably deliberate.
** And from the second season, Carroll masks. Multiples of them.
* ViewersAreGeniuses: You were all paying attention the day they discussed Poe in American Literature Class, right?
* VillainSue: Carroll for the first half of Season 1, where ''everything'' goes exactly as he planned. It also helps that [[WhatAnIdiot every member of the FBI is terribly stupid and incompetent.]] [[IdiotPlot Actually, this could be said about every character who isn't evil.]]
** And this trope is [[SubvertedTrope subverted]] to ''all Hell and highwater'' from "Havenport" onwards, as Carroll's plan flies completely off the rails and a VillainousBreakdown ensues.



* WhatAnIdiot:

to:

* WhatAnIdiot: UncannyValley:
** Those Poe masks. Given the genre, it's probably deliberate.
** And from the second season, ''Joe Carroll'' masks.
* ViewersAreGeniuses: You were all paying attention the day they discussed [[Creator/EdgarAllanPoe Poe]] in American Literature Class, right?
* VillainSue: Carroll for the first half of Season 1, where ''everything'' goes exactly as he planned. It also helps that [[WhatAnIdiot every member of the FBI is terribly stupid and incompetent.]] [[IdiotPlot Actually, this could be said about every character who isn't evil.]]
** And this trope is [[SubvertedTrope subverted]] to ''all Hell and highwater'' from "Havenport" onwards, as Carroll's plan flies completely off the rails and a VillainousBreakdown ensues.
* WhatAnIdiot:
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* ShipTease: A moment between Weston and Hardy's niece Max seems to happen at least once an episode after they meet during the second season.
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* ShipTease: A moment between Weston and Hardy's niece Max seems to happen at least once an episode after they meet during the second season.

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** ''Lily.'' If nonchalantly slitting the throat of the father of fan favorite Weston and [[spoiler:torturing and killing Mandy]] wasn't bad enough, her "family" of psychotic children that she can order around at a whim and her absolute lack of remorse about anything she does makes her this. Hell, there's some moments when she seems to be a bigger monster than BigBad Joe Carroll himself.



* DracoInLeatherPants: [[FanNickname The murder twins]] have been nothing but brutal, twisted, sadistic psychopaths since their first appearance on the show, but that doesn't stop some of the fanbase from squealing over them, even as they torture [[TheWoobie Mandy]], and some of them were actually horrified when Weston beat one of them to a pulp.
** Some of the minor cult members count to the point where the fanbase will become delighted as they ''murder innocent people.''



* MoralEventHorizon: Even some of the most diehard fans of Lily and the murder twins were horrified when they [[spoiler:tortured and killed Mandy before setting her dead body up to eat with them at dinner]].




to:

** Mandy. Yes, she did [[WhatAnIdiot choose Joe over her own mother and join Lily rather than simply fleeing the compound,]] but she's still nothing more than a young girl who was under the influence of her cult member-mother and the cult leader himself, whom she lived with and became attached to.
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Added DiffLines:

** Mandy's decision to [[spoiler:join Lily's family after abandoning Joe. Even though she was ''there'' when Joe coldly broke it off with Lily, it apparently doesn't occur to Mandy that Lily's a vindictive psycho who might torture her for Joe's location and/or kill her to spite him]]. Oops.

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