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I\'m dumb and didn\'t realize that this trope wasn\'t to be listed on pages. My bad.
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* CharacterDerailment: Jill in ''3D''. She turns into a DistressedDamsel, completely unable to defend herself. This, after tasering and nearly killing Hoffman at the end of VI. Many fans were not pleased.
** [[spoiler: Gordan is an even worse example. He goes from victim to accomplice with no real explanation, other than "Jigsaw nursed him back to health... after forcing him to cut off his own foot... [[SarcasmMode what a guy]]." His entire motivation in ''Saw'' was to save his family. They aren't even mentioned in ''3D''. Watching ''Saw'' and ''Saw 3D'' back to back, it's hard to believe they are even the same character.]]
** [[spoiler: Gordan is an even worse example. He goes from victim to accomplice with no real explanation, other than "Jigsaw nursed him back to health... after forcing him to cut off his own foot... [[SarcasmMode what a guy]]." His entire motivation in ''Saw'' was to save his family. They aren't even mentioned in ''3D''. Watching ''Saw'' and ''Saw 3D'' back to back, it's hard to believe they are even the same character.]]
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The page is called YMMV for a reason. If you really don\'t think it belongs here, check the IMDB forum for this movie. Roughly every other thread is complaning about one of these two points. Gordan himself appears on the Character Derailment page of this very wiki. Just becuse you don\'t agree doesn\'t mean it\'s Flame Bait.
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* CharacterDerailment: Jill in ''3D''. She turns into a DistressedDamsel, completely unable to defend herself. This, after tasering and nearly killing Hoffman at the end of VI. Many fans were not pleased.
** [[spoiler: Gordan is an even worse example. He goes from victim to accomplice with no real explanation, other than "Jigsaw nursed him back to health... after forcing him to cut off his own foot... [[SarcasmMode what a guy]]." His entire motivation in ''Saw'' was to save his family. They aren't even mentioned in ''3D''. Watching ''Saw'' and ''Saw 3D'' back to back, it's hard to believe they are even the same character.]]
** [[spoiler: Gordan is an even worse example. He goes from victim to accomplice with no real explanation, other than "Jigsaw nursed him back to health... after forcing him to cut off his own foot... [[SarcasmMode what a guy]]." His entire motivation in ''Saw'' was to save his family. They aren't even mentioned in ''3D''. Watching ''Saw'' and ''Saw 3D'' back to back, it's hard to believe they are even the same character.]]
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* CharacterDerailment: Jill in ''3D''. She turns into a DistressedDamsel, completely unable to defend herself. This, after tasering and nearly killing Hoffman at the end of VI. Many fans were not pleased.
** [[spoiler: Gordan is an even worse example. He goes from victim to accomplice with no real explanation, other than "Jigsaw nursed him back to health... after forcing him to cut off his own foot... [[SarcasmMode what a guy]]." His entire motivation in ''Saw'' was to save his family. They aren't even mentioned in ''3D''. Watching ''Saw'' and ''Saw 3D'' back to back, it's hard to believe they are even the same character.]]
** [[spoiler: Gordan is an even worse example. He goes from victim to accomplice with no real explanation, other than "Jigsaw nursed him back to health... after forcing him to cut off his own foot... [[SarcasmMode what a guy]]." His entire motivation in ''Saw'' was to save his family. They aren't even mentioned in ''3D''. Watching ''Saw'' and ''Saw 3D'' back to back, it's hard to believe they are even the same character.]]
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* CharacterDerailment: Jill in ''3D''. She turns into a DistressedDamsel, completely unable to defend herself. This, after tasering and nearly killing Hoffman at the end of VI. Many fans were not pleased.
** [[spoiler: Gordan is an even worse example. He goes from victim to accomplice with no real explanation, other than "Jigsaw nursed him back to health... after forcing him to cut off his own foot... [[SarcasmMode what a guy]]." His entire motivation in ''Saw'' was to save his family. They aren't even mentioned in ''3D''. Watching ''Saw'' and ''Saw 3D'' back to back, it's hard to believe they are even the same character.]]
** [[spoiler: Gordan is an even worse example. He goes from victim to accomplice with no real explanation, other than "Jigsaw nursed him back to health... after forcing him to cut off his own foot... [[SarcasmMode what a guy]]." His entire motivation in ''Saw'' was to save his family. They aren't even mentioned in ''3D''. Watching ''Saw'' and ''Saw 3D'' back to back, it's hard to believe they are even the same character.]]
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I think you misplaced the examples. I assume they are supposed to be under Complete Monster, which already has these examples.
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** As of''Saw 3D'', [[spoiler:Hoffman]].
** Xavier Chavez is the most clear cut example in the series.
** Xavier Chavez is the most clear cut example in the series.
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* CompleteMonster: Xavier in ''Saw II''; even Jigsaw has more redeeming qualities than this guy.
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* CompleteMonster: Xavier Chavez in ''Saw II''; even Jigsaw has more redeeming qualities than this guy.
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** As of''Saw 3D'', [[spoiler:Hoffman]].
** Xavier Chavez is the most clear cut example in the series.
** Xavier Chavez is the most clear cut example in the series.
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* JerkassWoobie: Bobby Dagen in ''3D'', never more so than [[spoiler:when he fails his final test. It was bad enough seeing him lose all of his friends and co-workers; seeing him lose his wife -- in one of the franchise's most disturbing death scenes -- was just icing on the Woobie portion of the cake.]]
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* {{Wangst}}: Jeff Denlon.
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** Jigsaw fits this trope as well - it's true a great number of his victims are even worse than him, but he also serves the same sadist fate to people who committed minor crimes; besides the fact the victim usually dies in any case even if he resolves the killer's quiz - Jigsaw doesn't seem to play always fair...
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* MagnificentBastard: Jigsaw killer
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* MagnificentBastard: Jigsaw killerkiller, Hoffman
* MoralEventHorizon: Chavez throwing Amanda into the pit of needles and forcing her to solve his test for him.
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** Then on the flip side, ''Saw 3D'' was accused of being misogynistic because six out of the ten people we see killed in the traps were female and [[YourMilageMayVary their deaths were much more brutal than the ones the male victims experienced]].
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** Then on the flip side, ''Saw 3D'' was accused of being misogynistic because six out of the ten people we see killed in the traps were female and [[YourMilageMayVary and their deaths were much more brutal than the ones the male victims experienced]].experienced.
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* TheWoobie: It's hard not to feel sorry for Jill as [[spoiler:she struggles and fails to escape the Reverse Bear Trap at the end of ''3D'', with her happier times with John flashing before her eyes.]]
** JerkassWoobie: Bobby, never more so than [[spoiler:when he fails his final test. It was bad enough seeing him lose all of his friends and co-workers; seeing him lose his wife -- in one of the franchise's most disturbing death scenes -- was just icing on the Woobie portion of the cake.]]
** JerkassWoobie: Bobby, never more so than [[spoiler:when he fails his final test. It was bad enough seeing him lose all of his friends and co-workers; seeing him lose his wife -- in one of the franchise's most disturbing death scenes -- was just icing on the Woobie portion of the cake.]]
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** This trooper certainly saw the tension ...
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* StrawmanHasAPoint: Way too many fans feel this way about Jigsaw.
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* StrawmanHasAPoint: Way too many Some fans feel this way about Jigsaw.
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* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot: ''Saw 3D'' had two potential interesting plot points, what made Gordon join Jigsaw and the Jigsaw survivor group. Both of them were pretty much ignored in favor of Bobby Dagen's storyline; the survivor's group goes nowhere and the Gordon's role amounts to little more than a cameo and doesn't tell us anything that the fans hadn't already guessed years ago. Tragically, both of these would have been explored further (the survivor group would have continued to carry on Jigsaw's work) but they were scrapped as a result of the final two movies being crammed into one.
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correcting spelling mistake I made on my YMMV, page
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[[AC:Well now you have one last shot at redemption. Below is a partial listed, started by those who came before and made the same grave mistake as you, of subjective tropes found in my films. If you wish to escape your predicament, you must complete this list, before [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped that anvil drops]]. It is closer now, troper, but luckily for you, there are fewer subjective tropes than tropes that belong on the main page.]]
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[[AC:Well now you have one last shot at redemption. Below is a partial listed, listing, started by those who came before and made the same grave mistake as you, of subjective tropes found in my films. If you wish to escape your predicament, you must complete this list, before [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped that anvil drops]]. It is closer now, troper, but luckily for you, there are fewer subjective tropes than tropes that belong on the main page.]]
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*** Though in Saw II the Needle Pit timer was already on when the group entered the room.
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* ExcusePlot: Fantastically [[AvertedTrope averted]]. For {{gorn}} movies, the series takes its plot quite seriously.
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* {{Narm}}: Jigsaw's line "KILLING IS DISTASTEFUL...to me!" in ''Saw V''.
** "PIRANHA!"
** The Carousel Trap in ''Saw VI''. It is impossible to take it seriously. Ever.
** "You know what the only thing wrong about killing you is, [[spoiler:Jill]]? I can only do it once."
** [[spoiler: Joyce's death]] in ''3D'' began as an emotional scene...until the trap turned into a spaceship.
*** It wasn't a spaceship. It was known as the "Brazen Bull", and was used by the Romans to barbecue Christians.
**** Then it suffered a trademark case of SpecialEffectFailure since the end result, which was intended to resemble a giant pig, looked more to audiences like said spaceship. On top of being a device a little too ridiculous even by ''Saw'' standards, it was a bit too much for most.
** Pretty much anything that comes out of Mallick's mouth in Saw V.
** The turret guns in 3D, which don't even remotely fit in with the nature of the rest of the traps.
** "PIRANHA!"
** The Carousel Trap in ''Saw VI''. It is impossible to take it seriously. Ever.
** "You know what the only thing wrong about killing you is, [[spoiler:Jill]]? I can only do it once."
** [[spoiler: Joyce's death]] in ''3D'' began as an emotional scene...until the trap turned into a spaceship.
*** It wasn't a spaceship. It was known as the "Brazen Bull", and was used by the Romans to barbecue Christians.
**** Then it suffered a trademark case of SpecialEffectFailure since the end result, which was intended to resemble a giant pig, looked more to audiences like said spaceship. On top of being a device a little too ridiculous even by ''Saw'' standards, it was a bit too much for most.
** Pretty much anything that comes out of Mallick's mouth in Saw V.
** The turret guns in 3D, which don't even remotely fit in with the nature of the rest of the traps.
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** Then on the flip side, ''Saw 3D'' was accused of being misogynistic because four out of the six people we see killed in the traps were female, and their deaths were much more brutal than the ones the male victims experienced.
*** ''Six'' out of the ''ten'', and the men in the Car Trap had pretty brutal deaths too.
*** ''Six'' out of the ''ten'', and the men in the Car Trap had pretty brutal deaths too.
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** Then on the flip side, ''Saw 3D'' was accused of being misogynistic because four six out of the six ten people we see killed in the traps were female, female and [[YourMilageMayVary their deaths were much more brutal than the ones the male victims experienced.
*** ''Six'' out of the ''ten'', and the men in the Car Trap had pretty brutal deaths too.experienced]].
*** ''Six'' out of the ''ten'', and the men in the Car Trap had pretty brutal deaths too.
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*** ''Six'' out of the ''ten'', and the men in the Car Trap had pretty brutal deaths too.
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** The much maligned "pink blood" in ''3D'' is often described as this.
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** The much maligned "pink blood" in ''3D'' is often described as this. Behind the scenes shots show that the blood actually did look pretty real, but was changed to a pinkish color in editing for unexplained reasons.
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** Then on the flip side, ''Saw 3D'' was accused of being misogynistic because four out of the six people we see killed in the traps were female, and their deaths were much more brutal than the ones the male victims experienced.
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* ExcusePlot: Fantastically [[AvertedTrope averted]]. For {{gorn}} movies, the series takes its plot quite seriously.
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* IdiotPlot: Even people who've dealt with Jigsaw in the past turn into flailing idiots when the plot requires it of them.
** Subverted with [[spoiler:Hoffman at the end of ''Saw VI'', who gets right to work escpaing the reverse bear trap 2.0 and manages to find a creative way of preventing it from opening fully when he can't get it off in time. The subversion is justified since he is Jigsaw's second apprentice, after all, and the more stable-minded of the two.]]
*** Also, the tape players. People always play them, even though that starts the timer. While some automatically start when they wake up, the ones that have to be started manually could be bypassed, given them more time to figure out the trap, and how to beat it.
** It seems that the law enforcement will always follow this. Jigsaw giving clues as to where he is? You can bet your ass the police will go charging in, despite the fact that he's known for TRAPS.
*** That and you know, they can't seem to catch a ''terminally ill old man''. (They did in Saw 2 but as usual he managed to get away.)
* ItWasHisSled: At this point, it's nearly impossible to read anything about the series-- including this page-- without finding out that Jigsaw is John Kramer. (See?) The once-shocking twist is also naturally lost on anybody who watches the films out of order.
** Subverted with [[spoiler:Hoffman at the end of ''Saw VI'', who gets right to work escpaing the reverse bear trap 2.0 and manages to find a creative way of preventing it from opening fully when he can't get it off in time. The subversion is justified since he is Jigsaw's second apprentice, after all, and the more stable-minded of the two.]]
*** Also, the tape players. People always play them, even though that starts the timer. While some automatically start when they wake up, the ones that have to be started manually could be bypassed, given them more time to figure out the trap, and how to beat it.
** It seems that the law enforcement will always follow this. Jigsaw giving clues as to where he is? You can bet your ass the police will go charging in, despite the fact that he's known for TRAPS.
*** That and you know, they can't seem to catch a ''terminally ill old man''. (They did in Saw 2 but as usual he managed to get away.)
* ItWasHisSled: At this point, it's nearly impossible to read anything about the series-- including this page-- without finding out that Jigsaw is John Kramer. (See?) The once-shocking twist is also naturally lost on anybody who watches the films out of order.
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** The turret guns in 3D, which don't even remotely fit in with the nature of the rest of the traps.
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** Pretty much anything that comes out of Mallick's mouth in Saw V.
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* ReplacementScrappy: [[spoiler:Detective Hoffman]].
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**** Then it suffered a trademark case of SpecialEffectFailure since the end result, which was intended to resemble a giant pig, looked more to audiences like said spaceship. On top of being a device a little too ridiculous even by ''Saw'' standards, it was a bit too much for most.
* ReplacementScrappy: [[spoiler:DetectiveHoffman]].Hoffman]]
* ReplacementScrappy: [[spoiler:Detective
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** The much maligned "pink blood" in ''3D'' is often described as this.
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* AcceptableTargets: Many of Jigsaw's victims are deplorable characters, such as thieves, druggies, racists, gangsters, killers, rapists, [[AndZoidberg and lawyers]]. [[SubvertedTrope In some cases, though,]] the victims have only made [[DisproportionateRetribution minor mistakes in their lives]], and others are completely innocent.
* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Is Jigsaw a [[CompleteMonster true monster]], or a legitimately [[WellIntentionedExtremist sick and tragically misguided social engineer?]]
** Given his capabilities, more like an anthropomorphic personification of a force of nature. A few myths come to mind as well for more specific possibilities.
*** There's another dimension to him as of the sixth movie. [[spoiler:The main character was employed by the company that denied his insurance claims. In four and five, his lawyer and the man who (accidentally, but was still a horrible person) killed his unborn kid, the second movie was about the cops that were after him, and the first film featured his doctor. On top of that, many of the other victims are people he was jealous of. Not saying he didn't actually kill some truly rotten people, but the more the series goes on, the more it seems like the entire series is his petty revenge list.]]
* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Is Jigsaw a [[CompleteMonster true monster]], or a legitimately [[WellIntentionedExtremist sick and tragically misguided social engineer?]]
** Given his capabilities, more like an anthropomorphic personification of a force of nature. A few myths come to mind as well for more specific possibilities.
*** There's another dimension to him as of the sixth movie. [[spoiler:The main character was employed by the company that denied his insurance claims. In four and five, his lawyer and the man who (accidentally, but was still a horrible person) killed his unborn kid, the second movie was about the cops that were after him, and the first film featured his doctor. On top of that, many of the other victims are people he was jealous of. Not saying he didn't actually kill some truly rotten people, but the more the series goes on, the more it seems like the entire series is his petty revenge list.]]
* BrokenBase: After ''Saw III'' hit the screens, THE ENTIRE FUCKING FANBASE argued about it. Online and off.
** And lookie here: history is repeating itself with the final move, ''Saw 3D''.
* ContinuityPorn: Much of the later films had flashbacks that explained details from previous films, such as how Jigsaw and his apprentices set up their "games". A large chunk of ''Saw V'' had this as it tried to retroactively fit Hoffman into the previous installments.
** In particular the "reverse bear trap", first appears on Amanda's head in the first film, then in the background in ''III'' and ''IV'', then plans can be seen for it in ''V'', then on [[spoiler:Hoffman]] at the end of ''VI'' and finally on [[spoiler:Jill]] in ''VII'' where [[spoiler:it finally goes off as John intended, and it looks awesome]].
*** Technically speaking, [[spoiler:[[CompletelyMissingThePoint John never ''intended'' for it to go off at all.]]]]
** And lookie here: history is repeating itself with the final move, ''Saw 3D''.
* ContinuityPorn: Much of the later films had flashbacks that explained details from previous films, such as how Jigsaw and his apprentices set up their "games". A large chunk of ''Saw V'' had this as it tried to retroactively fit Hoffman into the previous installments.
** In particular the "reverse bear trap", first appears on Amanda's head in the first film, then in the background in ''III'' and ''IV'', then plans can be seen for it in ''V'', then on [[spoiler:Hoffman]] at the end of ''VI'' and finally on [[spoiler:Jill]] in ''VII'' where [[spoiler:it finally goes off as John intended, and it looks awesome]].
*** Technically speaking, [[spoiler:[[CompletelyMissingThePoint John never ''intended'' for it to go off at all.]]]]
* CrackPairing: A lot, most notably Hoffman/Amanda. They hate each other's guts but that doesn't keep the fans from shipping them.
* MagnificentBastard: Jigsaw killer
* MostAnnoyingSound: ''Right now, you're feeling helpless.''
* RootingForTheEmpire: Two cases:
** First of course is Jigsaw as the main character of this VillainBasedFranchise who fans started to get behind after awhile ala Freddy Kreuger, Jason, Micheal Myers etc. His status as WoobieDestroyerofWorlds wins him a lot of sympathy points, and his AffablyEvil justifications for the things he does and people he does them to do at times have some merit.
** The second is more YourMileageMayVary but quite a few people are getting behind [[spoiler: Hoffman]] because of [[spoiler: his]] actions in the 5th and 6th movies painting [[spoiler: him]] as a Badass MagnificentBastard Determinator who improvises XanatosSpeedChess on the fly whenever things start going bad for [[spoiler: him]]. Of course just as many if not more people think of [[spoiler: him]] as a CompleteMonster and [[spoiler: are happy he got his final comeuppance in the finale.]]
** First of course is Jigsaw as the main character of this VillainBasedFranchise who fans started to get behind after awhile ala Freddy Kreuger, Jason, Micheal Myers etc. His status as WoobieDestroyerofWorlds wins him a lot of sympathy points, and his AffablyEvil justifications for the things he does and people he does them to do at times have some merit.
** The second is more YourMileageMayVary but quite a few people are getting behind [[spoiler: Hoffman]] because of [[spoiler: his]] actions in the 5th and 6th movies painting [[spoiler: him]] as a Badass MagnificentBastard Determinator who improvises XanatosSpeedChess on the fly whenever things start going bad for [[spoiler: him]]. Of course just as many if not more people think of [[spoiler: him]] as a CompleteMonster and [[spoiler: are happy he got his final comeuppance in the finale.]]
* {{Squick}}: Lots of it. Hell, every film in the franchise (following the first) is practically '''built on it.'''
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* WhatAnIdiot: Numerous characters, major and minor. [[spoiler:The biggest offender is possibly Lieutenant Rigg, who - even after being constantly shouted at by Eric Matthews to not enter a door - enters the door anyway. And he was even warned once before his game even begun to not go through unsecured doors, either.]]
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* WhatAnIdiot: Numerous characters, major and minor. [[spoiler:The biggest offender is possibly Lieutenant Rigg, who - even after being constantly shouted at by Eric Matthews to not enter a door - enters the door anyway. And he was even warned once before his game even begun to not go through unsecured doors, either.]]]]
* WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds: Arguably Jigsaw with his tragic backstory in the later sequels. Doesn't excuse the murderous course he took with his life; but it's still pretty damn sad.
** Applies to Amanda in ''Saw III''. Also can describe Hoffman, at least until he goes AxCrazy.
* WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds: Arguably Jigsaw with his tragic backstory in the later sequels. Doesn't excuse the murderous course he took with his life; but it's still pretty damn sad.
** Applies to Amanda in ''Saw III''. Also can describe Hoffman, at least until he goes AxCrazy.
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Edited comment to be less condescending towards the series. The point was valid though, as the Truffaut Was Right trope shows pretty handily.
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* UnfortunateImplications: ''Saw VI'' has the implications that men don't deserve to live (the only male survivor of a trap in the movie is [[spoiler: The Bad Guy Hoffman]]). The series as a whole is ''seen'' by people [[ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontWatch who don't know the saga]] as promoting the idea that 'torture is cool' when it's clearly ''not''(disregarding the fact that the entire series is about people being brutally tortured to death with a few {{And Thats Terrible}}s thrown in to remind us that torturing people to death is bad.).
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* UnfortunateImplications: ''Saw VI'' has the implications that men don't deserve to live (the only male survivor of a trap in the movie is [[spoiler: The Bad Guy Hoffman]]).
** The series as a whole is ''seen'' by people [[ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontWatch who don't know the saga]] as promoting the idea that 'torture is cool' when it's clearly''not''(disregarding ''not''. Of course, since the fact that films themselves spend so much time on the entire series gorey details, this [[TruffautWasRight last point is about people being brutally tortured to death with a few {{And Thats Terrible}}s thrown in to remind us that torturing people to death is bad.).easily missed]] by some of the actual viewers as well.
** The series as a whole is ''seen'' by people [[ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontWatch who don't know the saga]] as promoting the idea that 'torture is cool' when it's clearly
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* EpilepticTrees: Mostly regarding the fate of Dr. Gordon. [[spoiler:Not that it matters as of ''Saw 3D''.]]
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* UnfortunateImplications: ''Saw VI'' has the implications that men don't deserve to live (the only male survivor of a trap in the movie is [[spoiler: The Bad Guy Hoffman]]). The series as a whole is ''seen'' by people [[ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontWatch who don't know the saga]] as promoting the idea that 'torture is cool' when it's clearly ''not''.
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* UnfortunateImplications: ''Saw VI'' has the implications that men don't deserve to live (the only male survivor of a trap in the movie is [[spoiler: The Bad Guy Hoffman]]). The series as a whole is ''seen'' by people [[ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontWatch who don't know the saga]] as promoting the idea that 'torture is cool' when it's clearly ''not''.''not''(disregarding the fact that the entire series is about people being brutally tortured to death with a few {{And Thats Terrible}}s thrown in to remind us that torturing people to death is bad.).
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** [[spoiler:Dr. Gordon being the ''third'' apprentice was an AssPull the size of a small moon. And it was [[CrowningMomentOfAwesome awesome]].]]
*** YMMV. To me, that was nothing more than fanwank.
*** YMMV. To me, that was nothing more than fanwank.
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** [[spoiler:Dr. Gordon being the ''third'' apprentice was an AssPull the size of a small moon. And it was [[CrowningMomentOfAwesome awesome]].]]\n*** YMMV. To me, that was nothing more than fanwank.]]
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** [[YourMileageMayVary YMMV]] but Jigsaw himself, for some aspects, could fit this trope as well - it's true a great number of his victims are even worse than him, but he also serves the same sadist fate to people who committed minor crimes; besides the fact the victim usually dies in any case even if he resolves the killer's quiz - Jigsaw doesn't seem to play always fair...
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** [[YourMileageMayVary YMMV]] but Jigsaw himself, for some aspects, could fit fits this trope as well - it's true a great number of his victims are even worse than him, but he also serves the same sadist fate to people who committed minor crimes; besides the fact the victim usually dies in any case even if he resolves the killer's quiz - Jigsaw doesn't seem to play always fair...
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** The message of the seventh film is dead simple: Don't lie. [[spoiler:Or you'll have your loved one roasted alive before your eyes.]]
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** The message of the seventh film is dead simple: Don't lie. [[spoiler:Or [[spoiler:[[SpaceWhaleAesop Or you'll have your loved one roasted alive before your eyes.]]]]]]
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I just stumbled upon this trope for the first time and thought it fit rather nicely.
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* DesignatedProtagonistSyndrome: The later sequels have a real problem with this. The plotline involving the actual protagonist is generally seen as far less interesting than the side plots.
** In III, many fans care a lot more about Lynn, Amanda and John than they do about the supposed protagonist, Jeff.
** In IV, most fans care a lot more about the Jigsaw flashbacks than anything that happens with Rigg.
** Many find the Fatal Five in Saw V much more interesting than Strahm talking to himself about the plot.
** And in 3D, Hoffman, Gibson, and Jill are much more interesting than the actual protagonist, Bobby.
** Oddly, Saw VI avoids this entirely. William is actually an interesting character. Of course, many view VI as a SurprisinglyImprovedSequel, partially for this reason.
** In III, many fans care a lot more about Lynn, Amanda and John than they do about the supposed protagonist, Jeff.
** In IV, most fans care a lot more about the Jigsaw flashbacks than anything that happens with Rigg.
** Many find the Fatal Five in Saw V much more interesting than Strahm talking to himself about the plot.
** And in 3D, Hoffman, Gibson, and Jill are much more interesting than the actual protagonist, Bobby.
** Oddly, Saw VI avoids this entirely. William is actually an interesting character. Of course, many view VI as a SurprisinglyImprovedSequel, partially for this reason.
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** ""You know what the only thing wrong about killing you is, [[spoiler:Jill]]? I can only do it once."
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** ""You "You know what the only thing wrong about killing you is, [[spoiler:Jill]]? I can only do it once."
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*** It wasn't a spaceship. It was known as the "Brazen Bull", and was used by the Romans to barbecue Christians.
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* StrawmanHasAPoint: Way too many fans feel this way about Jigsaw.
