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* [[ScrappyMechanic/Persona5 Scrappy Mechanic]]
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** Free time matters in ''Persona'' games and ''Persona 5'' is no exception. Just like previous ''Persona'' games, however, there are still moments--mostly evenings after days with plot-related events--when Joker is sent straight to bed by Morgana because he's "probably sleepy". Or worse, only because Morgana himself is sleepy. Apparently, he needs to follow Joker everywhere he goes. The most glaring cases of this is during mid-May and early July, two points at which the player spends almost all day doing story related content, then heading home and having to go to bed. Worse yet is that these two examples are not just one day, but include multiple days straight, with early July having the player go almost '''three''' weeks straight being unable to do anything after class[[note]]After the player beats Kaneshiro, you have only a day or two of time to do anything before final exams hit, which gives means you have almost four days of not being allowed time, before starting the next mission to go after Futaba, which itself has several days straight of being unable to anything but go to sleep[[/note]]. People have expressed their frustration at not even being allowed to quickly return rented [=DVDs=][[note]]as you will be fined for returning them too late, although the first fine is waived[[/note]] or read a book at home. Unlike ''Persona 3'' and ''4'', this was only bad when it came time to talking to certain characters just to initiate certain S.Links such as MAX knowledge/academics for Naoto/Mitsuru respectively; but in ''Persona 5'', almost all of them require a maxed or very high attribute stat at some point in the game to finish. A number of players have noted that this could have been mitigated to a certain degree with a simple change of delivery; if it was the ''protagonist'' claiming he was exhausted and calling it a night it could at least be seen as personal decision and not one pushed on you by Morgana.
** Reading books is considered one of the poorest, if not the poorest, ways to spend free time in the game. The problem arises from the fact that, like in previous games, nearly every social stat-boosting book requires multiple chapters to be read before completion but unfortunately, books only grant their stat boost after the book has been completed, and even then usually a measly three "notes" for what took up to three days to complete. Contrast this with other stat boosting activities such as [=DVDs=], old video games, movies, or even spending time in the library or hot baths which grant their bonus every time they are done, and stat books become a waste of time by comparison. There are certain books that unlock potential hangout spots or make certain mini-games easier/more beneficial, but these are usually only one chapter long and can be read in special instances on the train or in the classroom. ''Royal'' fixes the issue slightly, in that while books still take multiple chapters to read, changes to the Speed Reading book, which is now available for free from the school library before the summer break and now only takes one chapter to read, books can now be read in only one sitting more efficiently.
** The inability to turn Confidant skills off. There are several skills, such as Ryuji's Insta-kill and several of Yoshida's later skills, that could potentially hurt more than they help, thus meaning you can't ever proceed with their Confidants if you feel the negatives outweigh the positives, something that would be easily negated by allowing every ability to be toggled on and off. ''Royal'' fixes the former skill issue slightly by removing Insta-kill from ambushes and instead requiring the player to go out of their way to trigger it by dashing into the enemy.
** When you secure a route to the Treasure and get the ability to send the calling card, you can't hang out with any of your party members until you've sent the card and beaten the boss. In a game that requires so much time management, this can be a pain. [[DownplayedTrope However]], this can be worked around: if you go your hideout and trigger the one-time meeting discussing said calling card, then when available, exit the hideout without sending it, everything will go back to normal (if not that day, then either that evening or tomorrow at the latest).
** Whenever you leave [=LeBlanc=], no matter the situation, you can't go back in without advancing the day, even on Sunday and summer vacation, where you usually start in [=LeBlanc=]. Curiously, this only applies during the day. The player can freely leave and return during the evenings.
** The high social stat requirements are a particularly annoying aspect of the game for some players. Almost every Confidant will require a stat to be at a certain level, and some seem ridiculously high for the point at which the Confidant appears in the game. If you're playing blind, there's no way to know which stats you should work on first, and many of the Confidants that the stats are tied to are somewhat unintuitive (for example, NiceGirl Haru seems as though she'd be tied to Kindness or Charm, but she needs Proficiency[[note]]To be fair, however, this is one of the easiest social stats to max out, since various activities like crafting Infiltration Tools, playing Baseball, fishing, and especially Darts in ''Royal'' all generously reward points in Proficiency.[[/note]]). Some Confidants really rub the players nose in it too, what with continuing to reward players with points in Stats that, by necessity, would already be maxed.
*** Makoto appears in the middle of the game, but not only do you need Rank 3 Knowledge just to get started with her, you'll require Max Charm stat to get past Rank 5.
*** In ''Royal'', Akechi requires Rank 3 Knowledge ''and'' Rank 3 Charm to progress to his Rank 3 Confidant, since the Justice Arcana's confidant is no longer automatic. Even though his Arcana only becomes available in June, the stats required for such a low rank are absurd.
*** You need Rank 3 Charm just to start talking to Hifumi, despite her Confidant revolving around strategy and more akin to Knowledge. And she's easily one of the most useful Confidants in the game, so you'll be going to the bath house every night to grind your Charm until it reaches the rank. She also requires maxed out Intelligence to progress past Rank 7 alongside undertaking a Mementos Request. Even then, you're ''still'' rewarded with Intelligence after the fact.
** Even more irritating than the high social stat requirements is that the in-game reasons for these requirements are so arbitrary that GameplayAndStorySegregation kicks in ''hard''. The in-game reasons why you cannot help these people progress in their personal quests just seem unfair, and many feel like a HandWave as to why you can't go further.
*** You need to be Rank 2 and Rank 4 Kindness to hang out with Ann and Futaba because you need to lend a sympathetic and sensitive ear to their problems, [[NiceGuy despite having helped them through much more challenging emotional crises]] in the regular story. The GameplayAndStorySegregation is especially egregious with Ann, as one of the first interactions Joker and Ann have with each other is Joker lending a sympathetic and sensitive ear to her problems, at a point in the game when all of his social stats are at Rank 1. Yet in Ann's Confidant, there's an arbitrary roadblock from doing the exact same thing a second time.
*** You need to have Max Charm to get to Rank 5 of Makoto's confidant because Eiko apparently has very high standards for her friend's boyfriends, despite dating [[KavorkaMan the greasiest-looking man to ever exist]].
*** You need to have Rank 4 Proficiency in order to finish Yusuke's confidant because [[BrokenBridge the door to Madarame's shack is jammed]], and Max Rank Proficiency just to get past Rank 1 with Haru because Haru might need Joker to move around bags of compost (despite how most of Haru's Confidant takes place locations besides her garden).
** The total stat cap makes it much more tedious to customize the Persona you want. Unlike previous games where you can max Personas through items, this game imposes a stat limit based on the Persona's level (a total of 304 stat points to work with). While this adds more balance to the game, it can also potentially make higher-leveled Personas worse than lower-leveled Personas due to having less room to level them up with the stats you want and possibly having more weaknesses than lower-leveled Personas. ''Royal'' fixes this problem by the addition of incense items and Gallows Accidents which can boost a Persona's stats without giving any EXP.
** The scene right before TheVeryDefinitelyFinalDungeon on December 24th, where [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth offers a "WeCanRuleTogether" deal to Joker, but Joker refuses, with Yaldabaoth leaving him trapped in the Velvet Room]]. You have to go around the area and talk to six of your teammates to snap them out of their HeroicBSOD apathy and re-ignite their will of rebellion. Not only is the area where you have to do this fairly large, but there's also a long dialogue with each of the Phantom Thieves with "Regret" and "Swear to My Bones" being played in order while talking with them, causing the BGM to loop through the same tracks over and over. There's also no enemies or battles to break this up. It takes at least thirty minutes to finish this event if you want to see everything, and while each of the Thieves can give a nice RousingSpeech, it gets repetitive quickly.
** During the early game, Morgana serves as your Navigator, much like [[VideoGame/Persona3 Mitsuru]] and [[VideoGame/Persona4 Teddie]] before him. Unlike Mitsuru and Teddie, however, Morgana actually is a controllable party member during this time, and provides valuable support as a healer. However, since he's the Navigator, he can't just die if he's knocked out during a battle, and has go through a short but nonetheless annoying animation of him retreating to the sidelines until the player can resume control of the battle. And since Morgana is a VERY SquishyWizard, expect this to happen often during the first palace.
** Free time matters in ''Persona'' games and ''Persona 5'' is no exception. Just like previous ''Persona'' games, however, there are still moments--mostly evenings after days with plot-related events--when Joker is sent straight to bed by Morgana because he's "probably sleepy". Or worse, only because Morgana himself is sleepy. Apparently, he needs to follow Joker everywhere he goes. The most glaring cases of this is during mid-May and early July, two points at which the player spends almost all day doing story related content, then heading home and having to go to bed. Worse yet is that these two examples are not just one day, but include multiple days straight, with early July having the player go almost '''three''' weeks straight being unable to do anything after class[[note]]After the player beats Kaneshiro, you have only a day or two of time to do anything before final exams hit, which gives means you have almost four days of not being allowed time, before starting the next mission to go after Futaba, which itself has several days straight of being unable to anything but go to sleep[[/note]]. People have expressed their frustration at not even being allowed to quickly return rented [=DVDs=][[note]]as you will be fined for returning them too late, although the first fine is waived[[/note]] or read a book at home. Unlike ''Persona 3'' and ''4'', this was only bad when it came time to talking to certain characters just to initiate certain S.Links such as MAX knowledge/academics for Naoto/Mitsuru respectively; but in ''Persona 5'', almost all of them require a maxed or very high attribute stat at some point in the game to finish. A number of players have noted that this could have been mitigated to a certain degree with a simple change of delivery; if it was the ''protagonist'' claiming he was exhausted and calling it a night it could at least be seen as personal decision and not one pushed on you by Morgana.
** Reading books is considered one of the poorest, if not the poorest, ways to spend free time in the game. The problem arises from the fact that, like in previous games, nearly every social stat-boosting book requires multiple chapters to be read before completion but unfortunately, books only grant their stat boost after the book has been completed, and even then usually a measly three "notes" for what took up to three days to complete. Contrast this with other stat boosting activities such as [=DVDs=], old video games, movies, or even spending time in the library or hot baths which grant their bonus every time they are done, and stat books become a waste of time by comparison. There are certain books that unlock potential hangout spots or make certain mini-games easier/more beneficial, but these are usually only one chapter long and can be read in special instances on the train or in the classroom. ''Royal'' fixes the issue slightly, in that while books still take multiple chapters to read, changes to the Speed Reading book, which is now available for free from the school library before the summer break and now only takes one chapter to read, books can now be read in only one sitting more efficiently.
** The inability to turn Confidant skills off. There are several skills, such as Ryuji's Insta-kill and several of Yoshida's later skills, that could potentially hurt more than they help, thus meaning you can't ever proceed with their Confidants if you feel the negatives outweigh the positives, something that would be easily negated by allowing every ability to be toggled on and off. ''Royal'' fixes the former skill issue slightly by removing Insta-kill from ambushes and instead requiring the player to go out of their way to trigger it by dashing into the enemy.
** When you secure a route to the Treasure and get the ability to send the calling card, you can't hang out with any of your party members until you've sent the card and beaten the boss. In a game that requires so much time management, this can be a pain. [[DownplayedTrope However]], this can be worked around: if you go your hideout and trigger the one-time meeting discussing said calling card, then when available, exit the hideout without sending it, everything will go back to normal (if not that day, then either that evening or tomorrow at the latest).
** Whenever you leave [=LeBlanc=], no matter the situation, you can't go back in without advancing the day, even on Sunday and summer vacation, where you usually start in [=LeBlanc=]. Curiously, this only applies during the day. The player can freely leave and return during the evenings.
** The high social stat requirements are a particularly annoying aspect of the game for some players. Almost every Confidant will require a stat to be at a certain level, and some seem ridiculously high for the point at which the Confidant appears in the game. If you're playing blind, there's no way to know which stats you should work on first, and many of the Confidants that the stats are tied to are somewhat unintuitive (for example, NiceGirl Haru seems as though she'd be tied to Kindness or Charm, but she needs Proficiency[[note]]To be fair, however, this is one of the easiest social stats to max out, since various activities like crafting Infiltration Tools, playing Baseball, fishing, and especially Darts in ''Royal'' all generously reward points in Proficiency.[[/note]]). Some Confidants really rub the players nose in it too, what with continuing to reward players with points in Stats that, by necessity, would already be maxed.
*** Makoto appears in the middle of the game, but not only do you need Rank 3 Knowledge just to get started with her, you'll require Max Charm stat to get past Rank 5.
*** In ''Royal'', Akechi requires Rank 3 Knowledge ''and'' Rank 3 Charm to progress to his Rank 3 Confidant, since the Justice Arcana's confidant is no longer automatic. Even though his Arcana only becomes available in June, the stats required for such a low rank are absurd.
*** You need Rank 3 Charm just to start talking to Hifumi, despite her Confidant revolving around strategy and more akin to Knowledge. And she's easily one of the most useful Confidants in the game, so you'll be going to the bath house every night to grind your Charm until it reaches the rank. She also requires maxed out Intelligence to progress past Rank 7 alongside undertaking a Mementos Request. Even then, you're ''still'' rewarded with Intelligence after the fact.
** Even more irritating than the high social stat requirements is that the in-game reasons for these requirements are so arbitrary that GameplayAndStorySegregation kicks in ''hard''. The in-game reasons why you cannot help these people progress in their personal quests just seem unfair, and many feel like a HandWave as to why you can't go further.
*** You need to be Rank 2 and Rank 4 Kindness to hang out with Ann and Futaba because you need to lend a sympathetic and sensitive ear to their problems, [[NiceGuy despite having helped them through much more challenging emotional crises]] in the regular story. The GameplayAndStorySegregation is especially egregious with Ann, as one of the first interactions Joker and Ann have with each other is Joker lending a sympathetic and sensitive ear to her problems, at a point in the game when all of his social stats are at Rank 1. Yet in Ann's Confidant, there's an arbitrary roadblock from doing the exact same thing a second time.
*** You need to have Max Charm to get to Rank 5 of Makoto's confidant because Eiko apparently has very high standards for her friend's boyfriends, despite dating [[KavorkaMan the greasiest-looking man to ever exist]].
*** You need to have Rank 4 Proficiency in order to finish Yusuke's confidant because [[BrokenBridge the door to Madarame's shack is jammed]], and Max Rank Proficiency just to get past Rank 1 with Haru because Haru might need Joker to move around bags of compost (despite how most of Haru's Confidant takes place locations besides her garden).
** The total stat cap makes it much more tedious to customize the Persona you want. Unlike previous games where you can max Personas through items, this game imposes a stat limit based on the Persona's level (a total of 304 stat points to work with). While this adds more balance to the game, it can also potentially make higher-leveled Personas worse than lower-leveled Personas due to having less room to level them up with the stats you want and possibly having more weaknesses than lower-leveled Personas. ''Royal'' fixes this problem by the addition of incense items and Gallows Accidents which can boost a Persona's stats without giving any EXP.
** The scene right before TheVeryDefinitelyFinalDungeon on December 24th, where [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth offers a "WeCanRuleTogether" deal to Joker, but Joker refuses, with Yaldabaoth leaving him trapped in the Velvet Room]]. You have to go around the area and talk to six of your teammates to snap them out of their HeroicBSOD apathy and re-ignite their will of rebellion. Not only is the area where you have to do this fairly large, but there's also a long dialogue with each of the Phantom Thieves with "Regret" and "Swear to My Bones" being played in order while talking with them, causing the BGM to loop through the same tracks over and over. There's also no enemies or battles to break this up. It takes at least thirty minutes to finish this event if you want to see everything, and while each of the Thieves can give a nice RousingSpeech, it gets repetitive quickly.
** During the early game, Morgana serves as your Navigator, much like [[VideoGame/Persona3 Mitsuru]] and [[VideoGame/Persona4 Teddie]] before him. Unlike Mitsuru and Teddie, however, Morgana actually is a controllable party member during this time, and provides valuable support as a healer. However, since he's the Navigator, he can't just die if he's knocked out during a battle, and has go through a short but nonetheless annoying animation of him retreating to the sidelines until the player can resume control of the battle. And since Morgana is a VERY SquishyWizard, expect this to happen often during the first palace.
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* [[HilariousInHindsight Hilarious in Hindsight]]
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** The player character is a Megami Tensei protagonist that dresses mostly in black, has a talking cat sidekick, prefers jazzy music, summons or investigates supernatural entities, and is in both a LighterAndSofter and DenserAndWackier game compared to the mainline ''SMT'' games. Wait, are we talking about Joker, or [[VideoGame/RaidouKuzunohaVsTheSoullessArmy Raidou Kuzunoha]]? In fact, Joker would later go on to star in his own ActionRPG spinoff, ''VideoGame/Persona5Strikers'', which ended up playing more akin to Raidou's games mixed with stealth, platforming and exploring parts of Japan to gain items and progress the story as opposed to a ''Dynasty Warriors'' clone with Persona 5 paint.
** Naoto Shirogane's social link in ''Persona 4'' involved a manufactured PhantomThief case. In ''Persona 5'', this same trope becomes a major thematic focus.
** Speaking of Naoto, her Valentine's Day event mentions that the ''VideoGame/Persona4'' hero has stolen her heart. One of the romance options in this game literally has her heart stolen by the Phantom Thieves.
** One of the alternate readings for Shujin School is "Prison School", as noted on the main page, and it's almost certainly intentional considering the themes of the game. Hmm, ''[[Manga/PrisonSchool why]]'' [[Manga/PrisonSchool does that sound so familiar?]]
** Michelle Ruff as the voice actor for Sadayo Kawakami brings a chuckle for anyone who knows that she played Yukari Takeba from ''VideoGame/Persona3''. It's especially funny when you remember that Yukari became an actor for the [[ShowWithinAShow Phoenix Ranger Featherman]] show, meaning both roles have her character be a ReluctantFanserviceGirl in their adult years. Oh and there's the fact that they both dress up as maids briefly.
** Amanda Winn Lee as the voice actor for Ichiko Ohya. Cue the jokes from the fan base that [[VideoGame/Persona4 Yukiko Amagi]] decided to secretly ditch Yasoinaba[[note]]She'd originally planned on doing so, but gets over that idea by the end of her Social Link[[/note]], head to Tokyo, and changed her name and career and enjoys her new fondness for beer. She lampshades this fact in her Twitter when she announced the role.
** Joker being an expy of Lelouch was even voiced by Creator/JunFukuyama. While his [[Creator/XanderMobus English voice]] wasn't Lelouch's [[Creator/JohnnyYongBosch English voice actor]], the previous protagonist [[VideoGame/Persona4 Yu Narukami]] was.
** Two of ''Webcomic/{{Hiimdaisy}}'''s most known parody comics feature [[VideoGame/Persona4 a Persona game]] and the ''VideoGame/MetalGear'' series, the latter has a huge emphasis on stealth and going undetected by the enemy (not to mention one of the protagonists eventually starting with [[BreadEggsBreadedEggs knife and gun (knifegun)]]. ''Persona 5'' uses the thief motif to emphasize the stealth and Joker is a KnifeNut with a gun. It's just a pity that Hiimdaisy has moved away from parody comics, otherwise we may get something like [[http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/911/547/0a2.jpg this.]]
** One of the Social Links in ''VideoGame/Persona3'' involves a student having the hots for a teacher. Here, the player character can do ''exactly that'' and can romance Ms. Kawakami.
** Even better, the Hermit Social Link in ''VideoGame/Persona3'' is [[spoiler:your teacher, who unknowingly tells the player that they have a crush on the MC.]]
** Thor being the final opponent of the 6th Palace's Battle Arena is sure to get a chuckle from players who've seen the ''Film/ThorRagnarok'' trailer, which makes a big deal of Thor fighting in a gladiatorial arena.
** No need for context, just [[https://youtu.be/WHjkcVkpWo0 this face swap]] of Joker and Akechi as Barney Stinson and Marshall Eriksen from ''Series/HowIMetYourMother'', respectively.
** A real world example: During the Hawaii trip in September, Yusuke's plane which was originally set to fly to Los Angeles gets diverted to Hawaii because massive storms in LA made it too difficult to land. This takes place in September (and the in-game calendar corresponds to the year 2016 despite the "20XX" moniker). In real life September 2016, California was suffering from a several-years long severe drought that was impacting the entire state and causing all counties to enact water usage restrictions. However, in late January 2017, California actually did get hit by a series of ''massive'' thunderstorms that miraculously ended the drought, including Los Angeles, so Yusuke's plane scenario would have been right on target with reality had it occurred a few months later.
** Even more film examples: Okumura's Palace takes place in a space station, with his Shadow self in particular being a DarthVaderClone. The game was released in Japan before the international release of ''Film/RogueOne'', which focuses on another RagtagBunchOfMisfits stealing stuff to rebel against evil forces, albeit this time from the army led by the very man Okumura's Shadow pays homage to. Not only that, but the game is heavily implied to take place in 2016, the same year ''Rogue One'' was released; [[spoiler:the final dungeon even takes place in December, the same month as said film's release.]]
** As [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbg8Q4x2k2I this video]] proves, [[VideoGame/Persona3 Mitsuru Kirijo]] may have known some MemeticMutation involving a certain cat telling you to go to bed way before this game was even out.
** [[https://imgur.com/r/Persona5/7qQsHn6 This comment]] Yosuke made in ''VideoGame/PersonaQShadowOfTheLabyrinth'' became more ironic after the release of the game.
** The MC in this game being called Joker has had many fans making references to The Joker of Batman fame. In the Batman Tell Tale series, [[spoiler:one of the routes you can take in that game has The Joker himself becoming a vigilante fighting against a corrupt system that wronged him, just like the MC and the Phantom Thieves. The Joker's outfit in that route (purple longcoat and painted on domino mask) even resembles the MC]]. Also, in the ''Royal'' update, Creator/LauraPost joins the cast as potential love interest Kasumi Yoshizawa. Laura previously voiced ComicBook/HarleyQuinn, the Joker's girlfriend, in the aforementioned Telltale game.
** When beginning your first time working at Crossroads, Morgana muses about the possibility of the MC needing to cross-dress. Cue ''VideoGame/Persona5DancingInStarlight'', where the MC gets a cross-dressing costume.
** In Sae's Palace, Futaba makes a reference to ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBros'' [[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtyfU3hVsAAEssw.jpg here]]. Fast forward to December 2018 at The Game Awards and Joker himself [[https://youtu.be/Q7z1Ny1kc6g debuts as a fighter in]] ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate''. Sufficed to say, a lot of fans never saw that coming.
** One of the retro games that Joker can play in his room is called ''Punch Ouch'', an obvious riff on ''VideoGame/PunchOut''. Now, as a fighter in ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate'', Joker can go head to head with Little Mac, the star of the actual ''Punch-Out!!'', and fight in the boxing ring from that game.
** Futaba has frequently been noted to have a striking resemblance to an [[VideoGame/{{Splatoon}} Inkling]], specifically the orange-tentacled girl that's the unofficial mascot of the game. Futaba's Spirit Battle in ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate'' has her represented by the very same Inkling girl.
** Joker being given an official CanonName of Ren ''Amamiya'' became this after the seiyuu chosen to voice new character Kasumi Yoshizawa in ''Persona 5: Royal'' was revealed to be none other than ''Creator/SoraAmamiya''.
** Makoto's Phantom Thief biker outfit having some similarities to ''[[Manga/FistOfTheNorthStar Kenshiro]]'' is amusing enough, especially considering that Atlus' parent company Sega released a few games based on the license, and shared a voice actor with this game in ''[[VideoGame/FistOfTheNorthStarLostParadise Lost Paradise]]''. Then ''Royal'' came, and it was revealed that Makoto received a new finisher that's very similar to Ken's famous [[RapidFireFisticuffs Hundred-Crack Fist]].
** Some of the DLC's included the ability to use the main Personas of [[VideoGame/Persona3 Makoto Yuki]] and [[VideoGame/Persona4 Yu Narukami]]. to be used by Joker. Come ''Royal'', and while you can still use them, new DLC allows you to square off against both Personas separately alongside their true masters.
*** Gets more amusing when you bring Izanagi-No-Okami into the Final Palace of ''Royal''. Why? [[spoiler:You're fighting a LotusEaterMachine, which is what Yu later does in the P4 anime]]. Even further, fighting against Lies could be seen as a form of rebellion. [[labelnote:note]] Heck, by this logic, we could say Yu was rebelling before it was needed.[[/labelnote]]
** Just when you thought [[Creator/KaijiTang Iwai]] was done with the Yakuza life, along comes ''VideoGame/YakuzaLikeADragon'' to pull him right back in. And this time, he's joined by none other than [[Creator/ElizabethMaxwell Sae]] herself!
*** ''Like a Dragon'''s final substory has Ichiban getting beaten up by a few of his female friends (which includes two party members) for cheating on them in a scene that plays out similarly to the harem route Valentine's Day scene. As a bonus, five of the women share voice actors with the aforementioned [[Creator/ElizabethMaxwell Sae]], [[Creator/EdenRiegel Hifumi]], [[Creator/ErikaHarlacher Ann]], [[Creator/CheramiLeigh Makoto]] and [[Creator/CassandraLeeMorris Morgana]].
** One lyric in "Life Will Change" says the (Phantom Thieves) aren't a "Robot A.I. coming for you." But in ''VideoGame/Persona5Strikers'' one of your party members, Sophia is ''exactly that''.
** Pretty much the entirety of the Third Semester Arc in ''Royal'' is this with the advent of ''Series/WandaVision'' having a similar premise. Let's see now... [[spoiler:the involvement of a LotusEaterMachine? Check. An antagonist rewriting ''reality itself'' to prevent suffering? Check. Said antagonist unwillingly dragging others into their reality? Zig-zagged in Maruki's case, but there is some evidence throughout the overworld, so yes. Check. Resurrecting the dead in some shape or form? Check. The antagonist being an AntiVillain whose main motive is grief from the loss of a loved one? In ''Royal's'' case, it's moreso Sumire than Maruki himself, but technically yes. The list goes on.]]
** The player character is a Megami Tensei protagonist that dresses mostly in black, has a talking cat sidekick, prefers jazzy music, summons or investigates supernatural entities, and is in both a LighterAndSofter and DenserAndWackier game compared to the mainline ''SMT'' games. Wait, are we talking about Joker, or [[VideoGame/RaidouKuzunohaVsTheSoullessArmy Raidou Kuzunoha]]? In fact, Joker would later go on to star in his own ActionRPG spinoff, ''VideoGame/Persona5Strikers'', which ended up playing more akin to Raidou's games mixed with stealth, platforming and exploring parts of Japan to gain items and progress the story as opposed to a ''Dynasty Warriors'' clone with Persona 5 paint.
** Naoto Shirogane's social link in ''Persona 4'' involved a manufactured PhantomThief case. In ''Persona 5'', this same trope becomes a major thematic focus.
** Speaking of Naoto, her Valentine's Day event mentions that the ''VideoGame/Persona4'' hero has stolen her heart. One of the romance options in this game literally has her heart stolen by the Phantom Thieves.
** One of the alternate readings for Shujin School is "Prison School", as noted on the main page, and it's almost certainly intentional considering the themes of the game. Hmm, ''[[Manga/PrisonSchool why]]'' [[Manga/PrisonSchool does that sound so familiar?]]
** Michelle Ruff as the voice actor for Sadayo Kawakami brings a chuckle for anyone who knows that she played Yukari Takeba from ''VideoGame/Persona3''. It's especially funny when you remember that Yukari became an actor for the [[ShowWithinAShow Phoenix Ranger Featherman]] show, meaning both roles have her character be a ReluctantFanserviceGirl in their adult years. Oh and there's the fact that they both dress up as maids briefly.
** Amanda Winn Lee as the voice actor for Ichiko Ohya. Cue the jokes from the fan base that [[VideoGame/Persona4 Yukiko Amagi]] decided to secretly ditch Yasoinaba[[note]]She'd originally planned on doing so, but gets over that idea by the end of her Social Link[[/note]], head to Tokyo, and changed her name and career and enjoys her new fondness for beer. She lampshades this fact in her Twitter when she announced the role.
** Joker being an expy of Lelouch was even voiced by Creator/JunFukuyama. While his [[Creator/XanderMobus English voice]] wasn't Lelouch's [[Creator/JohnnyYongBosch English voice actor]], the previous protagonist [[VideoGame/Persona4 Yu Narukami]] was.
** Two of ''Webcomic/{{Hiimdaisy}}'''s most known parody comics feature [[VideoGame/Persona4 a Persona game]] and the ''VideoGame/MetalGear'' series, the latter has a huge emphasis on stealth and going undetected by the enemy (not to mention one of the protagonists eventually starting with [[BreadEggsBreadedEggs knife and gun (knifegun)]]. ''Persona 5'' uses the thief motif to emphasize the stealth and Joker is a KnifeNut with a gun. It's just a pity that Hiimdaisy has moved away from parody comics, otherwise we may get something like [[http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/911/547/0a2.jpg this.]]
** One of the Social Links in ''VideoGame/Persona3'' involves a student having the hots for a teacher. Here, the player character can do ''exactly that'' and can romance Ms. Kawakami.
** Even better, the Hermit Social Link in ''VideoGame/Persona3'' is [[spoiler:your teacher, who unknowingly tells the player that they have a crush on the MC.]]
** Thor being the final opponent of the 6th Palace's Battle Arena is sure to get a chuckle from players who've seen the ''Film/ThorRagnarok'' trailer, which makes a big deal of Thor fighting in a gladiatorial arena.
** No need for context, just [[https://youtu.be/WHjkcVkpWo0 this face swap]] of Joker and Akechi as Barney Stinson and Marshall Eriksen from ''Series/HowIMetYourMother'', respectively.
** A real world example: During the Hawaii trip in September, Yusuke's plane which was originally set to fly to Los Angeles gets diverted to Hawaii because massive storms in LA made it too difficult to land. This takes place in September (and the in-game calendar corresponds to the year 2016 despite the "20XX" moniker). In real life September 2016, California was suffering from a several-years long severe drought that was impacting the entire state and causing all counties to enact water usage restrictions. However, in late January 2017, California actually did get hit by a series of ''massive'' thunderstorms that miraculously ended the drought, including Los Angeles, so Yusuke's plane scenario would have been right on target with reality had it occurred a few months later.
** Even more film examples: Okumura's Palace takes place in a space station, with his Shadow self in particular being a DarthVaderClone. The game was released in Japan before the international release of ''Film/RogueOne'', which focuses on another RagtagBunchOfMisfits stealing stuff to rebel against evil forces, albeit this time from the army led by the very man Okumura's Shadow pays homage to. Not only that, but the game is heavily implied to take place in 2016, the same year ''Rogue One'' was released; [[spoiler:the final dungeon even takes place in December, the same month as said film's release.]]
** As [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbg8Q4x2k2I this video]] proves, [[VideoGame/Persona3 Mitsuru Kirijo]] may have known some MemeticMutation involving a certain cat telling you to go to bed way before this game was even out.
** [[https://imgur.com/r/Persona5/7qQsHn6 This comment]] Yosuke made in ''VideoGame/PersonaQShadowOfTheLabyrinth'' became more ironic after the release of the game.
** The MC in this game being called Joker has had many fans making references to The Joker of Batman fame. In the Batman Tell Tale series, [[spoiler:one of the routes you can take in that game has The Joker himself becoming a vigilante fighting against a corrupt system that wronged him, just like the MC and the Phantom Thieves. The Joker's outfit in that route (purple longcoat and painted on domino mask) even resembles the MC]]. Also, in the ''Royal'' update, Creator/LauraPost joins the cast as potential love interest Kasumi Yoshizawa. Laura previously voiced ComicBook/HarleyQuinn, the Joker's girlfriend, in the aforementioned Telltale game.
** When beginning your first time working at Crossroads, Morgana muses about the possibility of the MC needing to cross-dress. Cue ''VideoGame/Persona5DancingInStarlight'', where the MC gets a cross-dressing costume.
** In Sae's Palace, Futaba makes a reference to ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBros'' [[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtyfU3hVsAAEssw.jpg here]]. Fast forward to December 2018 at The Game Awards and Joker himself [[https://youtu.be/Q7z1Ny1kc6g debuts as a fighter in]] ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate''. Sufficed to say, a lot of fans never saw that coming.
** One of the retro games that Joker can play in his room is called ''Punch Ouch'', an obvious riff on ''VideoGame/PunchOut''. Now, as a fighter in ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate'', Joker can go head to head with Little Mac, the star of the actual ''Punch-Out!!'', and fight in the boxing ring from that game.
** Futaba has frequently been noted to have a striking resemblance to an [[VideoGame/{{Splatoon}} Inkling]], specifically the orange-tentacled girl that's the unofficial mascot of the game. Futaba's Spirit Battle in ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate'' has her represented by the very same Inkling girl.
** Joker being given an official CanonName of Ren ''Amamiya'' became this after the seiyuu chosen to voice new character Kasumi Yoshizawa in ''Persona 5: Royal'' was revealed to be none other than ''Creator/SoraAmamiya''.
** Makoto's Phantom Thief biker outfit having some similarities to ''[[Manga/FistOfTheNorthStar Kenshiro]]'' is amusing enough, especially considering that Atlus' parent company Sega released a few games based on the license, and shared a voice actor with this game in ''[[VideoGame/FistOfTheNorthStarLostParadise Lost Paradise]]''. Then ''Royal'' came, and it was revealed that Makoto received a new finisher that's very similar to Ken's famous [[RapidFireFisticuffs Hundred-Crack Fist]].
** Some of the DLC's included the ability to use the main Personas of [[VideoGame/Persona3 Makoto Yuki]] and [[VideoGame/Persona4 Yu Narukami]]. to be used by Joker. Come ''Royal'', and while you can still use them, new DLC allows you to square off against both Personas separately alongside their true masters.
*** Gets more amusing when you bring Izanagi-No-Okami into the Final Palace of ''Royal''. Why? [[spoiler:You're fighting a LotusEaterMachine, which is what Yu later does in the P4 anime]]. Even further, fighting against Lies could be seen as a form of rebellion. [[labelnote:note]] Heck, by this logic, we could say Yu was rebelling before it was needed.[[/labelnote]]
** Just when you thought [[Creator/KaijiTang Iwai]] was done with the Yakuza life, along comes ''VideoGame/YakuzaLikeADragon'' to pull him right back in. And this time, he's joined by none other than [[Creator/ElizabethMaxwell Sae]] herself!
*** ''Like a Dragon'''s final substory has Ichiban getting beaten up by a few of his female friends (which includes two party members) for cheating on them in a scene that plays out similarly to the harem route Valentine's Day scene. As a bonus, five of the women share voice actors with the aforementioned [[Creator/ElizabethMaxwell Sae]], [[Creator/EdenRiegel Hifumi]], [[Creator/ErikaHarlacher Ann]], [[Creator/CheramiLeigh Makoto]] and [[Creator/CassandraLeeMorris Morgana]].
** One lyric in "Life Will Change" says the (Phantom Thieves) aren't a "Robot A.I. coming for you." But in ''VideoGame/Persona5Strikers'' one of your party members, Sophia is ''exactly that''.
** Pretty much the entirety of the Third Semester Arc in ''Royal'' is this with the advent of ''Series/WandaVision'' having a similar premise. Let's see now... [[spoiler:the involvement of a LotusEaterMachine? Check. An antagonist rewriting ''reality itself'' to prevent suffering? Check. Said antagonist unwillingly dragging others into their reality? Zig-zagged in Maruki's case, but there is some evidence throughout the overworld, so yes. Check. Resurrecting the dead in some shape or form? Check. The antagonist being an AntiVillain whose main motive is grief from the loss of a loved one? In ''Royal's'' case, it's moreso Sumire than Maruki himself, but technically yes. The list goes on.]]
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** There is a division on how people feel about Joker's parents. We know nothing about them except for the fact that they passed him off on the friend of a friend after he was put on probation. So did they, as Sojiro said at the start of the game, dump him on someone else because they see him as a pain (we don't see or hear any contact from them for the entire story) or do they really care for him and think this is the best choice for him. It's possible they contact him off camera, but as far as we know they never bother reaching out to him for his entire stay in Tokyo. This could also happen because [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth changed the public's Cognition to perceive Joker as a dangerous criminal as soon as he went to save that woman from being harassed by Shido, and of course that would include his parents as well.]]
** While most agree that Madarame is an utterly terrible person, did he see Yusuke as nothing more than just another artist to exploit, or did he actually care for him to a certain extent? A few characters raise the latter possibility (granted, none of them had the same eye-opening look at Madarame's Palace that Yusuke did), and Yusuke, for all he hates Madarame for what he's done can't help but occasionally look back fondly on his time with his old teacher and see good along with the bad.
*** Even then, Yusuke also admits during Okumura's palace that the emotional/mental abuse Madarame subjected him to made Yusuke desperate to please him and (almost) completely blind to his faults — it's also entirely possible that Yusuke is just too used to trying to see the good in Madarame to really stop. A lot of the genuinely good times that Yusuke (and other people who knew Madarame) can recall, however, happened when Yusuke was still a child — so was it the case that he started out as being a much better person and got a lot worse as Yusuke grew?
** As detailed within the ValuesDissonance page of [[ValuesDissonance/Persona5 this game]] (which plays a significant part in the conclusions one draws) does Kunikazu Okumura really care about Haru in spite of arranging her to marry a terrible person for his personal gain, or was his apology insincere at best?
** Some theorize that Futaba is autistic due to her personality quirks, poor social skills, and tendency to get wrapped up in something she's obsessed with. Her English voice actor, Creator/EricaLindbeck, also stated in an interview that she interpreted Futaba [[https://soundcloud.com/grandlethal16/exclusive-interview-erica-lindbeck-sakuracon-2017 as possibly being on the spectrum.]] This is also a common theory for Yusuke, for much the same reasons.
** Yusuke's sexuality. Is he gay? Bi? Asexual? [[CargoShip Art-sexual?]] A straight or bi CovertPervert who ''pretends'' to be art-sexual so he can see nude women consequence-free? Fans simply can't agree. This is complicated by the times that he stresses that he's not interested in women, but there are a couple of scenes in-game that imply he's attracted to Ann.
** Why did Yusuke threaten to call the police over Ryuji and the protagonist accusing Madarame of plagiarism if Ann didn't pose nude for him? Was this proof that he, like Madarame, was willing to exploit people for his art, and could have turned out just as badly as his teacher? Did he not realize that there was anything inappropriate about making the request of Ann? Or was he simply trying to drive the Phantom Thieves away for good (a possibility that Ann, who has the most sympathy for Yusuke, considers)? Or was he just too freaked out of the consequences for opposing Madarame? Compare the anime, in which he merely tells the Phantom Thieves to GetOut and later apologizes for losing his temper.
** Kamoshida's FreudianExcuse. Based on what kind of {{Jerkass}}, power-hungry maniac and sexual predator Kamoshida is, did his FreudianExcuse really meant it, or he's just doing it for the sake of begging the Phantom Thieves to spare him from certain death?
** Kawakami as a potential romantic interest, given how a TeacherStudentRomance seems to conflict with her Confidant storyline about how she needs to find a ''healthy'' balance of her personal responsibilities with what she feels is needed of her professionally for the betterment of her students. Opinions range from remaining the total {{Woobie}} she seemed to be before the issue comes up who really could use ''anyone'' as a supportive significant other, which is why she's willing to take Joker up on his offer despite her own in-game objections, to yet another ''high school teacher'' in this game worryingly (and [[{{Squick}} disgustingly]]) blasé about the issue of having sexual relations with ''a young teenager'' when Joker confesses his interest in her as she only brings up the teacher/student issue when trying to justify turning him down, with the swerve also calling into question how "innocent" all of the maid service calls made up to this point have really been on her side of this.
** Much has been discussed about Akechi's [[spoiler:request to Shido that he not have to kill the Phantom Thieves all at once, his given justification being that the entire group of friends dying mysteriously within days of each other would look way too suspicious. Fans are split as to whether he meant what he said or whether he was trying to protect them from Shido in his own way.]]
** Adding to this is the question of how much [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth]] was manipulating him. [[spoiler:Was Akechi filled with nothing but hate towards the world and wanted to see it burn, no matter the cost, or a weak-hearted victim of societal stigma whose loneliness and anger was fostered into hatred by the malevolent entity? Akechi was 15 and in a child institution at the time and would have done anything to break free from such a situation (which in theory mirrors the Thieves' situation, except more hopeless). There's also how easily he ended up actually caring for the Thieves despite having learned his membership was a deception and not being in their company for a great amount of time, nor possessing knowledge that stealing hearts was even possible until it was too late. [[TrappedInVillainy A valid argument can be made that Akechi didn't have much of an option to be the hero]].]]
** On the other note, seeing that the victims with on-screen deaths are not entirely innocent, that draws the question of Futaba's mom: Was she really a victim of the Conspiracy, or is it that she is complicit in Shido's plan? Keep in mind that the only things we heard about her is from Futaba and Sojiro, who are on good terms with her, and [[spoiler:Maruki was also a Cognitive Psience researcher, yet Shido did basically nothing other than to seize his research and keep him in the dark]]. It is likely that Akechi sees her as another member of The Conspiracy and possibly a mastermind who Akechi believes to be responsible for the abuse of cognition. On the other hand, it's also possible that like Sae, she's unwittingly doing The Conspiracy's dirty work without being aware of their existence.
** Kaneshiro appears to be a dreaded crime lord that the police refuse to even investigate because they can't track him down and it takes the Phantom Thieves a good while to even know that the Yakuza-tied scammer was Kaneshiro. Later on, we got to know that Kaneshiro's drug-trafficking scams are used to [[spoiler:finance Shido's campaign]]. Finally, during ''Strikers'', another financer of [[spoiler:Shido's campaign, Jun Owada can get away with murdering Zenkichi's wife solely because of his ties with Shido letting him blackmail Zenkichi into uselessness]]. So was Kaneshiro really ''that'' dreaded because of his elusiveness and vast reserves of wealth preventing the police from investigating him, or he's only getting away with everything he did because he was [[spoiler:fiancing Shido's campaign, which means that if the Police dared make such a move, the inspectors in charge of the case might risk getting blackmailed or even get a Mental Shutdown?]]
** Morgana [[spoiler:running away]]. Who was at fault for the situation? Some blame Morgana because he tended to insult Ryuji for every minor mistake he made and coming off as Wangsty, but some blame Ryuji because he would keep egging Morgana on even if he didn't provoke him.
** Whether Futaba works best as a LoveInterest or a [[LikeBrotherAndSister surrogate sibling]] to Joker is a subject of surprising virulence. The argument for the latter, in addition to the reasons given in AbandonShipping above, is that it's also a valid way to keep their dynamics close in fanworks even if Joker is paired with someone else romantically. Supporters of the former argue that since Sojiro's only been Joker's guardian for less than a year (and even he sees nothing wrong with them being together if you pursue her [[OverprotectiveDad beyond the fact that you want to date his daughter]]) claiming the two are siblings through not-actually-adoption is pushing it so it shouldn't be a cause of {{Squick}} in the first place. What doesn't help matters is that Futaba does develop an obvious crush on Joker as her Confidant link progresses regardless of how you feel about her, and is one of the most explicit girls about it too, which results in arguments ranging from the former using it as "proof" when accusing the latter of FanonDiscontinuity to the latter claiming it can be a variant of the FlirtyStepSiblings trope so it doesn't necessarily disprove their stance. ValuesDissonance also comes into play — in Japan, this pairing is more popular because it's way easier to see Joker as a caregiver in their dynamic.
** While Joker is less of a blank slate than the previous two player characters, and often makes decisions without the player's inputs, said decisions can still be subject to interpretation: to what extent is Joker a [[LoveableRogue true believer in the ideals of the Phantom Thieves]] and to what extent might [[ManipulativeBastard he be furthering his own ends by leading the group?]] Points for the former come from the proactively altruistic targets the group takes on, such as Madarame or the Mementos cases, [[PunchClockHero which don't necessarily guarantee a reward and inherently involve some risk of injury or exposure]]. Points for the latter come from the impetus to continue the Phantom Thieves group after Kamoshida; to whit, the party is willing to consider [[ValuesDissonance the brain-washing of complete strangers for the sake of personal views and aspirations rather than out of necessity from an imminent threat]]. It is worth noting that, as opposed to the [[spoiler:Accomplice]] Ending from ''Persona 4'', which is implied to have come from the MC's naivete rather than deliberate malice, Joker can opt to [[spoiler:side with Yaldabaoth]] and the ending gives no sense of regret on Joker's part whatsoever, instead having him [[SmugSmiler grin snidely at the camera]].
*** During the buffet at the Wilton Hotel, Joker thinks to himself that he hadn't considered continuing as a Phantom Thief after dealing with Kamoshida, and later notes that seeing [[spoiler:Masayoshi Shido]] at the hotel helped convince him to continue. Was he initially reluctant because he was unsure whether it was morally right to change people's hearts because he was afraid of getting into further trouble, or because being betrayed by the woman he helped left him cynical about helping others? And when he did ultimately decide to continue, was it for the sake of changing the world, helping other people, or eventually getting revenge on the one who wronged him?
*** While Joker obviously ''doesn't'' regret cutting a deal with [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth]], when he cuts a deal with the new ArcVillain of ''Royal'' [[spoiler:and sacrificing every last bit of thought from them in place of their well being,]] he clearly regrets it. Is he truly rejecting the deal for [[spoiler:everyone's real well being, or is he rejecting it so he can continue to express his suppressed anger and regret on Shadows or other enemies?]]
** Kasumi's scholarship revoked by her head teacher. Is the head teacher really acting out of completely {{Jerkass}} level elitism, or does he really know that [[spoiler:this is an impostor and not the real Kasumi, as the real one doesn't get third runner ups or below on local gymnast competitions,]] so he's revoking it for the sake of [[spoiler:"Kasumi"-Sumire violating competition rules for impersonating another contestant, and in particular, a '''dead''' one?]]
** Related to the point above, the students in Shujin were apparently jealous of Kasumi getting a scholarship and didn't look at her in an easy way. When [[spoiler:she's being exposed as Sumire by Maruki, he explicitly says that only Sumire herself thinks that she's Kasumi]]. So are the students actually jealous of Kasumi's talent, or they simply don't [[spoiler:view her as worthy of scholarship based on how she was actually inferior to Kasumi and they were actually mad that the school giving a scholarship to a completely and utterly delusional impersonator and not the real talented gymnast, at least in their viewpoint?]]
** A rather subtle one occurs right after [[spoiler:Maruki confiscates Yoshizawa as a bargain chip for Joker and Akechi on January 2. Once you go back home from his Palace and meet Morgana, Akechi will phone you telling that he warned Yoshizawa's parents that their daughter might be in danger only for Maruki to had been manipulated them into thinking that she was in a training camp already. Could this be done by Maruki to lower their alert for their daughter missing for a week, or was it actually something that is done to make sure his bargain with Joker and Akechi is held private on both ends?]]
** In ''Royal'', the new ArcVillain makes two "WeCanRuleTogether" offers, similar to a previous enemy.
*** Once you reject the first, [[spoiler:he drives Sumire berserk indirectly, then uses a tentacle-like device to make her Persona berserk and attack you. If you get around this, Sumire is snapped out. However, right before he attacks with berserk Cendrillon, one of his entry lines is "Be her guide, and help her escape from the nightmare!" So is Maruki legitimately trying to kill you, or is he giving you a chance to snap Sumire out yourself? Because he knew all of the others are snapped out from his reality, was the offer is because he ''knew'' that you did snap them out, so he is trying to use you to revert all of them?]]
*** The second offer happens after [[spoiler:Maruki claims that Akechi is a fake made by him, and that the real Akechi is dead. Judging from Akechi warning of a setup once the party reaches Eden, there is absolutely no way that Maruki can know about the party's encounter with Akechi in Shido's Palace. Nor does Maruki know Akechi, having never met him before Akechi's supposed death. Furthermore, if Akechi was really affected, he wouldn't even remember killing Wakaba in the first place, since some deep thinking reveals that ''did'' indirectly lead to him confronting the Phantom Thieves in the cruiser, resulting in his ambiguous fate]]. Could this mean that the Arc Villain of ''Royal'''s expanded scenario is just straight-up lying to you to mess with your head and make you more likely to accept the offer? It should be noted however that [[spoiler:Doctor Maruki didn't have an idea about Morgana's desires to become human (more or less to look like a human actor that Morgana saw on TV). Given how Doctor Maruki did turn Morgana into that human actor, could there be some truth to what he said?]]
** When [[spoiler:Maruki was "saving humanity" with the dream world, it's heavily implied that was because he's been driven insane by his Persona who was influcencing him to do such a thing, and there are also implications that his persona was a separate being altogether from him]].[[labelnote:note - spoilers!]]A Persona is a manifested version of its user psyche, or a tamed Shadow Self according to ''VideoGame/Persona4Arena''. Therefore, the persona and the user is usually one and the same, and the persona can't act independently from its user. However, Maruki's persona seems to be able of ''acting on its own'' and even offers to fuse with Maruki at the final battle -- something that is (mostly) unprecedented.[[/labelnote]] [[labelnote:further note - contains spoilers for Persona 1 and 2]]The exception to this being Takahisa Kandori's persona in ''VideoGame/Persona1'', [[EldritchAbomination Nyarlathotep]], which forcibly merges with him into God Kandori-- Nyarlathotep is even [[RetroactiveContinuity retconned]] into an [[DemonicPossession independent, malevolent entity capable of masquerading as a persona]] come ''VideoGame/Persona2'', suggesting that the independence of Maruki's persona is entirely possible. [[/labelnote]] [[spoiler:Maruki seems to be one of the few targets to not mind having you change his heart and even asks you to do it sometimes (although he will still put up a fight, no matter what), and is more concerned about Joker's well being than anything instead of being flat out aloof and hostile like other defectors such as Akechi once they ever defect. So is Maruki's willpower strong enough to awaken such a monstrosity of a Persona or something else was behind its manifestation via artificial or external means?]]
** Some have taken umbrage with the Phantom Thieves themselves come certain revelations at the end of the game. [[spoiler:Every single one of the hearts they changed throughout the story is discovered to have been put under Yaldabaoth's thrall, indicating that the Thieves' actions were largely responsible for why Yaldabaoth ended up as powerful as he did]]. [[AngstWhatAngst None of the Thieves react much to it or let it get to them at all]], and when they're nearly [[spoiler:wiped from existence and end up in the Velvet Room, they lament more on how dependent they were on society's views of them rather than how they'd indirectly aided the BigBad through BrainwashingForTheGreaterGood. All this, compounded with the fact that they then suddenly advocate for putting faith in society's capacity for change without the need of the supernatural, despite using supernatural means anyway to defeat the FinalBoss, puts into question their sincerity as to whether or not they genuinely cared about helping the helpless]]. On the other hand, they [[spoiler:set out to Mementos Core knowing that if they succeeded, they'd give up their ability to change people's hearts, and thus entrusted the ability to change the future to the people as a whole.]]
** Also the people of Tokyo as a whole. [[spoiler:Did they side with the Phantom Thieves in the endgame out of a genuine desire for change, or did they side with them on pain of death from Yaldabaoth?]]
** Why did the woman [[UngratefulBastard who'd betrayed the protagonist before the start of the game]] change her heart and [[spoiler:testify against Shido]]? Is it out of [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone guilt over what she did]]? Or is it because she believes that [[spoiler:it will ensure Shido's conviction]]? If it's the latter, it's possible that she didn't testify against [[spoiler:Shido]] earlier because she was afraid, and/or that she's only doing so now because she has less at risk. The fact that it takes the Phantom Thieves (and Ohya, if her Confidant was completed), weeks to find her indicates that she is trying quite hard not to be found, and the only question is why.
** Going by how Shadows operated in ''VideoGame/Persona4'', in that while they did represent what someone was like deep down they also tended to be greatly exaggerate their behavior[[note]] like how Shadow Kanji, born largely from Kanji's insecurities in his [[RealMenWearPink feminine hobbies]] and confusion over his [[AmbiguouslyBi sexual orientation]], manifested as a exaggerated CampGay [[/note]], which matches with how the Targets go from a BitchInSheepsClothing to a CardCarryingVillain in the Metaverse much like the P4 shadows. This brings into question how much of the Target's Shadow's behavior is genuine and how much is them exaggerating their real version's vile behavior:
*** Did Madarame really leave Yusuke's mother to die when she had a seizure in front of him? Or did he simply panic and find himself unable to do anything, which wouldn't be surprising considering [[EvilOldFolks his age]]. For that matter, was he even there when she had a seizure in the first place or was that itself just an exaggeration of how bad him altering the work of Yusuke's mother and posting it under his name is? Or maybe even SurvivorsGuilt in regards to her death?
*** In ''Royal'' during the revamped fight with Okumura, [[spoiler:He will summon a Cognitive Haru to attack the Phantom Thieves and, if she takes too long, will simply have her self-destruct as a last resort]]. Does Okumura [[spoiler:really not care if Haru dies if it means he can achieve his ambitions]], or is this simply an exaggeration of [[spoiler:how much he sees Haru as a bargaining chip]] brought forth by his Shadow manifesting his darker traits and would the real Okumura actually be horrified [[spoiler:if Haru got killed?]]
*** How obsessed with winning is [[spoiler:Sae really?]] While [[spoiler:her]] Palace manifests as a casino and [[spoiler:her]] Shadow frequently goes on about how winning is everything, how far is [[spoiler:she really willing to go to win a court case? The worst she's seen to do, at least on-screen, is use aggressive investigations methods such as blackmailing Sojiro with threats to rescind his parental authority over Futaba. The comically obvious ways she goes about cheating in her Palace, such as the glass panel on the roulette wheel in her boss fight, also brings into question how willing she is to actually do it; Is it a sign that she's shameless about her morally ambiguous methods and feels justified in using them, or is it a sign of how risky or against her morals she views it as]]. There's also the fact that [[spoiler:she's the only Palace Ruler whose heart wasn't changed by stealing her treasure, but by Makoto and Joker appealing to her morality, which implies that while it's strong enough to create a Palace, her distortion isn't as severe as most other Palace rulers]]. It's also worth considering [[spoiler:her reaction to a Calling Card being found in Kobayakawa's office; was her excited "Yes...!" her being glad to finally get a lead, or her being relieved that she won't have to forge anything linking them to more murders now that she's got ([[FrameUp at least to her]]) legitimate evidence.]]
** There is a division on how people feel about Joker's parents. We know nothing about them except for the fact that they passed him off on the friend of a friend after he was put on probation. So did they, as Sojiro said at the start of the game, dump him on someone else because they see him as a pain (we don't see or hear any contact from them for the entire story) or do they really care for him and think this is the best choice for him. It's possible they contact him off camera, but as far as we know they never bother reaching out to him for his entire stay in Tokyo. This could also happen because [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth changed the public's Cognition to perceive Joker as a dangerous criminal as soon as he went to save that woman from being harassed by Shido, and of course that would include his parents as well.]]
** While most agree that Madarame is an utterly terrible person, did he see Yusuke as nothing more than just another artist to exploit, or did he actually care for him to a certain extent? A few characters raise the latter possibility (granted, none of them had the same eye-opening look at Madarame's Palace that Yusuke did), and Yusuke, for all he hates Madarame for what he's done can't help but occasionally look back fondly on his time with his old teacher and see good along with the bad.
*** Even then, Yusuke also admits during Okumura's palace that the emotional/mental abuse Madarame subjected him to made Yusuke desperate to please him and (almost) completely blind to his faults — it's also entirely possible that Yusuke is just too used to trying to see the good in Madarame to really stop. A lot of the genuinely good times that Yusuke (and other people who knew Madarame) can recall, however, happened when Yusuke was still a child — so was it the case that he started out as being a much better person and got a lot worse as Yusuke grew?
** As detailed within the ValuesDissonance page of [[ValuesDissonance/Persona5 this game]] (which plays a significant part in the conclusions one draws) does Kunikazu Okumura really care about Haru in spite of arranging her to marry a terrible person for his personal gain, or was his apology insincere at best?
** Some theorize that Futaba is autistic due to her personality quirks, poor social skills, and tendency to get wrapped up in something she's obsessed with. Her English voice actor, Creator/EricaLindbeck, also stated in an interview that she interpreted Futaba [[https://soundcloud.com/grandlethal16/exclusive-interview-erica-lindbeck-sakuracon-2017 as possibly being on the spectrum.]] This is also a common theory for Yusuke, for much the same reasons.
** Yusuke's sexuality. Is he gay? Bi? Asexual? [[CargoShip Art-sexual?]] A straight or bi CovertPervert who ''pretends'' to be art-sexual so he can see nude women consequence-free? Fans simply can't agree. This is complicated by the times that he stresses that he's not interested in women, but there are a couple of scenes in-game that imply he's attracted to Ann.
** Why did Yusuke threaten to call the police over Ryuji and the protagonist accusing Madarame of plagiarism if Ann didn't pose nude for him? Was this proof that he, like Madarame, was willing to exploit people for his art, and could have turned out just as badly as his teacher? Did he not realize that there was anything inappropriate about making the request of Ann? Or was he simply trying to drive the Phantom Thieves away for good (a possibility that Ann, who has the most sympathy for Yusuke, considers)? Or was he just too freaked out of the consequences for opposing Madarame? Compare the anime, in which he merely tells the Phantom Thieves to GetOut and later apologizes for losing his temper.
** Kamoshida's FreudianExcuse. Based on what kind of {{Jerkass}}, power-hungry maniac and sexual predator Kamoshida is, did his FreudianExcuse really meant it, or he's just doing it for the sake of begging the Phantom Thieves to spare him from certain death?
** Kawakami as a potential romantic interest, given how a TeacherStudentRomance seems to conflict with her Confidant storyline about how she needs to find a ''healthy'' balance of her personal responsibilities with what she feels is needed of her professionally for the betterment of her students. Opinions range from remaining the total {{Woobie}} she seemed to be before the issue comes up who really could use ''anyone'' as a supportive significant other, which is why she's willing to take Joker up on his offer despite her own in-game objections, to yet another ''high school teacher'' in this game worryingly (and [[{{Squick}} disgustingly]]) blasé about the issue of having sexual relations with ''a young teenager'' when Joker confesses his interest in her as she only brings up the teacher/student issue when trying to justify turning him down, with the swerve also calling into question how "innocent" all of the maid service calls made up to this point have really been on her side of this.
** Much has been discussed about Akechi's [[spoiler:request to Shido that he not have to kill the Phantom Thieves all at once, his given justification being that the entire group of friends dying mysteriously within days of each other would look way too suspicious. Fans are split as to whether he meant what he said or whether he was trying to protect them from Shido in his own way.]]
** Adding to this is the question of how much [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth]] was manipulating him. [[spoiler:Was Akechi filled with nothing but hate towards the world and wanted to see it burn, no matter the cost, or a weak-hearted victim of societal stigma whose loneliness and anger was fostered into hatred by the malevolent entity? Akechi was 15 and in a child institution at the time and would have done anything to break free from such a situation (which in theory mirrors the Thieves' situation, except more hopeless). There's also how easily he ended up actually caring for the Thieves despite having learned his membership was a deception and not being in their company for a great amount of time, nor possessing knowledge that stealing hearts was even possible until it was too late. [[TrappedInVillainy A valid argument can be made that Akechi didn't have much of an option to be the hero]].]]
** On the other note, seeing that the victims with on-screen deaths are not entirely innocent, that draws the question of Futaba's mom: Was she really a victim of the Conspiracy, or is it that she is complicit in Shido's plan? Keep in mind that the only things we heard about her is from Futaba and Sojiro, who are on good terms with her, and [[spoiler:Maruki was also a Cognitive Psience researcher, yet Shido did basically nothing other than to seize his research and keep him in the dark]]. It is likely that Akechi sees her as another member of The Conspiracy and possibly a mastermind who Akechi believes to be responsible for the abuse of cognition. On the other hand, it's also possible that like Sae, she's unwittingly doing The Conspiracy's dirty work without being aware of their existence.
** Kaneshiro appears to be a dreaded crime lord that the police refuse to even investigate because they can't track him down and it takes the Phantom Thieves a good while to even know that the Yakuza-tied scammer was Kaneshiro. Later on, we got to know that Kaneshiro's drug-trafficking scams are used to [[spoiler:finance Shido's campaign]]. Finally, during ''Strikers'', another financer of [[spoiler:Shido's campaign, Jun Owada can get away with murdering Zenkichi's wife solely because of his ties with Shido letting him blackmail Zenkichi into uselessness]]. So was Kaneshiro really ''that'' dreaded because of his elusiveness and vast reserves of wealth preventing the police from investigating him, or he's only getting away with everything he did because he was [[spoiler:fiancing Shido's campaign, which means that if the Police dared make such a move, the inspectors in charge of the case might risk getting blackmailed or even get a Mental Shutdown?]]
** Morgana [[spoiler:running away]]. Who was at fault for the situation? Some blame Morgana because he tended to insult Ryuji for every minor mistake he made and coming off as Wangsty, but some blame Ryuji because he would keep egging Morgana on even if he didn't provoke him.
** Whether Futaba works best as a LoveInterest or a [[LikeBrotherAndSister surrogate sibling]] to Joker is a subject of surprising virulence. The argument for the latter, in addition to the reasons given in AbandonShipping above, is that it's also a valid way to keep their dynamics close in fanworks even if Joker is paired with someone else romantically. Supporters of the former argue that since Sojiro's only been Joker's guardian for less than a year (and even he sees nothing wrong with them being together if you pursue her [[OverprotectiveDad beyond the fact that you want to date his daughter]]) claiming the two are siblings through not-actually-adoption is pushing it so it shouldn't be a cause of {{Squick}} in the first place. What doesn't help matters is that Futaba does develop an obvious crush on Joker as her Confidant link progresses regardless of how you feel about her, and is one of the most explicit girls about it too, which results in arguments ranging from the former using it as "proof" when accusing the latter of FanonDiscontinuity to the latter claiming it can be a variant of the FlirtyStepSiblings trope so it doesn't necessarily disprove their stance. ValuesDissonance also comes into play — in Japan, this pairing is more popular because it's way easier to see Joker as a caregiver in their dynamic.
** While Joker is less of a blank slate than the previous two player characters, and often makes decisions without the player's inputs, said decisions can still be subject to interpretation: to what extent is Joker a [[LoveableRogue true believer in the ideals of the Phantom Thieves]] and to what extent might [[ManipulativeBastard he be furthering his own ends by leading the group?]] Points for the former come from the proactively altruistic targets the group takes on, such as Madarame or the Mementos cases, [[PunchClockHero which don't necessarily guarantee a reward and inherently involve some risk of injury or exposure]]. Points for the latter come from the impetus to continue the Phantom Thieves group after Kamoshida; to whit, the party is willing to consider [[ValuesDissonance the brain-washing of complete strangers for the sake of personal views and aspirations rather than out of necessity from an imminent threat]]. It is worth noting that, as opposed to the [[spoiler:Accomplice]] Ending from ''Persona 4'', which is implied to have come from the MC's naivete rather than deliberate malice, Joker can opt to [[spoiler:side with Yaldabaoth]] and the ending gives no sense of regret on Joker's part whatsoever, instead having him [[SmugSmiler grin snidely at the camera]].
*** During the buffet at the Wilton Hotel, Joker thinks to himself that he hadn't considered continuing as a Phantom Thief after dealing with Kamoshida, and later notes that seeing [[spoiler:Masayoshi Shido]] at the hotel helped convince him to continue. Was he initially reluctant because he was unsure whether it was morally right to change people's hearts because he was afraid of getting into further trouble, or because being betrayed by the woman he helped left him cynical about helping others? And when he did ultimately decide to continue, was it for the sake of changing the world, helping other people, or eventually getting revenge on the one who wronged him?
*** While Joker obviously ''doesn't'' regret cutting a deal with [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth]], when he cuts a deal with the new ArcVillain of ''Royal'' [[spoiler:and sacrificing every last bit of thought from them in place of their well being,]] he clearly regrets it. Is he truly rejecting the deal for [[spoiler:everyone's real well being, or is he rejecting it so he can continue to express his suppressed anger and regret on Shadows or other enemies?]]
** Kasumi's scholarship revoked by her head teacher. Is the head teacher really acting out of completely {{Jerkass}} level elitism, or does he really know that [[spoiler:this is an impostor and not the real Kasumi, as the real one doesn't get third runner ups or below on local gymnast competitions,]] so he's revoking it for the sake of [[spoiler:"Kasumi"-Sumire violating competition rules for impersonating another contestant, and in particular, a '''dead''' one?]]
** Related to the point above, the students in Shujin were apparently jealous of Kasumi getting a scholarship and didn't look at her in an easy way. When [[spoiler:she's being exposed as Sumire by Maruki, he explicitly says that only Sumire herself thinks that she's Kasumi]]. So are the students actually jealous of Kasumi's talent, or they simply don't [[spoiler:view her as worthy of scholarship based on how she was actually inferior to Kasumi and they were actually mad that the school giving a scholarship to a completely and utterly delusional impersonator and not the real talented gymnast, at least in their viewpoint?]]
** A rather subtle one occurs right after [[spoiler:Maruki confiscates Yoshizawa as a bargain chip for Joker and Akechi on January 2. Once you go back home from his Palace and meet Morgana, Akechi will phone you telling that he warned Yoshizawa's parents that their daughter might be in danger only for Maruki to had been manipulated them into thinking that she was in a training camp already. Could this be done by Maruki to lower their alert for their daughter missing for a week, or was it actually something that is done to make sure his bargain with Joker and Akechi is held private on both ends?]]
** In ''Royal'', the new ArcVillain makes two "WeCanRuleTogether" offers, similar to a previous enemy.
*** Once you reject the first, [[spoiler:he drives Sumire berserk indirectly, then uses a tentacle-like device to make her Persona berserk and attack you. If you get around this, Sumire is snapped out. However, right before he attacks with berserk Cendrillon, one of his entry lines is "Be her guide, and help her escape from the nightmare!" So is Maruki legitimately trying to kill you, or is he giving you a chance to snap Sumire out yourself? Because he knew all of the others are snapped out from his reality, was the offer is because he ''knew'' that you did snap them out, so he is trying to use you to revert all of them?]]
*** The second offer happens after [[spoiler:Maruki claims that Akechi is a fake made by him, and that the real Akechi is dead. Judging from Akechi warning of a setup once the party reaches Eden, there is absolutely no way that Maruki can know about the party's encounter with Akechi in Shido's Palace. Nor does Maruki know Akechi, having never met him before Akechi's supposed death. Furthermore, if Akechi was really affected, he wouldn't even remember killing Wakaba in the first place, since some deep thinking reveals that ''did'' indirectly lead to him confronting the Phantom Thieves in the cruiser, resulting in his ambiguous fate]]. Could this mean that the Arc Villain of ''Royal'''s expanded scenario is just straight-up lying to you to mess with your head and make you more likely to accept the offer? It should be noted however that [[spoiler:Doctor Maruki didn't have an idea about Morgana's desires to become human (more or less to look like a human actor that Morgana saw on TV). Given how Doctor Maruki did turn Morgana into that human actor, could there be some truth to what he said?]]
** When [[spoiler:Maruki was "saving humanity" with the dream world, it's heavily implied that was because he's been driven insane by his Persona who was influcencing him to do such a thing, and there are also implications that his persona was a separate being altogether from him]].[[labelnote:note - spoilers!]]A Persona is a manifested version of its user psyche, or a tamed Shadow Self according to ''VideoGame/Persona4Arena''. Therefore, the persona and the user is usually one and the same, and the persona can't act independently from its user. However, Maruki's persona seems to be able of ''acting on its own'' and even offers to fuse with Maruki at the final battle -- something that is (mostly) unprecedented.[[/labelnote]] [[labelnote:further note - contains spoilers for Persona 1 and 2]]The exception to this being Takahisa Kandori's persona in ''VideoGame/Persona1'', [[EldritchAbomination Nyarlathotep]], which forcibly merges with him into God Kandori-- Nyarlathotep is even [[RetroactiveContinuity retconned]] into an [[DemonicPossession independent, malevolent entity capable of masquerading as a persona]] come ''VideoGame/Persona2'', suggesting that the independence of Maruki's persona is entirely possible. [[/labelnote]] [[spoiler:Maruki seems to be one of the few targets to not mind having you change his heart and even asks you to do it sometimes (although he will still put up a fight, no matter what), and is more concerned about Joker's well being than anything instead of being flat out aloof and hostile like other defectors such as Akechi once they ever defect. So is Maruki's willpower strong enough to awaken such a monstrosity of a Persona or something else was behind its manifestation via artificial or external means?]]
** Some have taken umbrage with the Phantom Thieves themselves come certain revelations at the end of the game. [[spoiler:Every single one of the hearts they changed throughout the story is discovered to have been put under Yaldabaoth's thrall, indicating that the Thieves' actions were largely responsible for why Yaldabaoth ended up as powerful as he did]]. [[AngstWhatAngst None of the Thieves react much to it or let it get to them at all]], and when they're nearly [[spoiler:wiped from existence and end up in the Velvet Room, they lament more on how dependent they were on society's views of them rather than how they'd indirectly aided the BigBad through BrainwashingForTheGreaterGood. All this, compounded with the fact that they then suddenly advocate for putting faith in society's capacity for change without the need of the supernatural, despite using supernatural means anyway to defeat the FinalBoss, puts into question their sincerity as to whether or not they genuinely cared about helping the helpless]]. On the other hand, they [[spoiler:set out to Mementos Core knowing that if they succeeded, they'd give up their ability to change people's hearts, and thus entrusted the ability to change the future to the people as a whole.]]
** Also the people of Tokyo as a whole. [[spoiler:Did they side with the Phantom Thieves in the endgame out of a genuine desire for change, or did they side with them on pain of death from Yaldabaoth?]]
** Why did the woman [[UngratefulBastard who'd betrayed the protagonist before the start of the game]] change her heart and [[spoiler:testify against Shido]]? Is it out of [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone guilt over what she did]]? Or is it because she believes that [[spoiler:it will ensure Shido's conviction]]? If it's the latter, it's possible that she didn't testify against [[spoiler:Shido]] earlier because she was afraid, and/or that she's only doing so now because she has less at risk. The fact that it takes the Phantom Thieves (and Ohya, if her Confidant was completed), weeks to find her indicates that she is trying quite hard not to be found, and the only question is why.
** Going by how Shadows operated in ''VideoGame/Persona4'', in that while they did represent what someone was like deep down they also tended to be greatly exaggerate their behavior[[note]] like how Shadow Kanji, born largely from Kanji's insecurities in his [[RealMenWearPink feminine hobbies]] and confusion over his [[AmbiguouslyBi sexual orientation]], manifested as a exaggerated CampGay [[/note]], which matches with how the Targets go from a BitchInSheepsClothing to a CardCarryingVillain in the Metaverse much like the P4 shadows. This brings into question how much of the Target's Shadow's behavior is genuine and how much is them exaggerating their real version's vile behavior:
*** Did Madarame really leave Yusuke's mother to die when she had a seizure in front of him? Or did he simply panic and find himself unable to do anything, which wouldn't be surprising considering [[EvilOldFolks his age]]. For that matter, was he even there when she had a seizure in the first place or was that itself just an exaggeration of how bad him altering the work of Yusuke's mother and posting it under his name is? Or maybe even SurvivorsGuilt in regards to her death?
*** In ''Royal'' during the revamped fight with Okumura, [[spoiler:He will summon a Cognitive Haru to attack the Phantom Thieves and, if she takes too long, will simply have her self-destruct as a last resort]]. Does Okumura [[spoiler:really not care if Haru dies if it means he can achieve his ambitions]], or is this simply an exaggeration of [[spoiler:how much he sees Haru as a bargaining chip]] brought forth by his Shadow manifesting his darker traits and would the real Okumura actually be horrified [[spoiler:if Haru got killed?]]
*** How obsessed with winning is [[spoiler:Sae really?]] While [[spoiler:her]] Palace manifests as a casino and [[spoiler:her]] Shadow frequently goes on about how winning is everything, how far is [[spoiler:she really willing to go to win a court case? The worst she's seen to do, at least on-screen, is use aggressive investigations methods such as blackmailing Sojiro with threats to rescind his parental authority over Futaba. The comically obvious ways she goes about cheating in her Palace, such as the glass panel on the roulette wheel in her boss fight, also brings into question how willing she is to actually do it; Is it a sign that she's shameless about her morally ambiguous methods and feels justified in using them, or is it a sign of how risky or against her morals she views it as]]. There's also the fact that [[spoiler:she's the only Palace Ruler whose heart wasn't changed by stealing her treasure, but by Makoto and Joker appealing to her morality, which implies that while it's strong enough to create a Palace, her distortion isn't as severe as most other Palace rulers]]. It's also worth considering [[spoiler:her reaction to a Calling Card being found in Kobayakawa's office; was her excited "Yes...!" her being glad to finally get a lead, or her being relieved that she won't have to forge anything linking them to more murders now that she's got ([[FrameUp at least to her]]) legitimate evidence.]]
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** For Mementos bosses, Shadow Fukurai. He's the boss required for the Fortune Confidant, and is [[NonIndicativeDifficulty a LOT harder than any other C Rank target]]. He has huge defence and a lot of HP, even with his Ice weakness, he takes a while to bring down. Worse, he has the ever-annoying Brain Jack, which inflicts Brainwash on the party, causing them to attack each other or heal and buff him. Even worse, he can follow it up with Mapsio, hitting Brainwashed characters for Technical damage. The worst part about this is that Makoto, the one party member at that point who can cure Brainwash, is weak to Psi. ''And'' he will always follow up a One More with Marakunda, ensuring your party won't survive another Mapsio. If you're unlucky, he can open the fight with Brain Jack ''before you even get a turn'', and if it hits the whole party, you're at a major disadvantage right from the start. He also has Eigaon, the endgame-tier Curse skill which is the move you ''don't'' want to see. And the very tip of the iceberg? He's at Level 47 with a whopping total of '''''65''''' Magic. So unless you have Null Brainwash, Null Psy, Null Curse, Null Physical, or all of the above, you know there's a problem.
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** For Mementos bosses, Shadow Fukurai. He's the boss required for the Fortune Confidant, and is [[NonIndicativeDifficulty a LOT harder than any other C Rank target]]. He has huge defence and a lot of HP, even with his Ice weakness, he takes a while to bring down. Worse, he has the ever-annoying Brain Jack, which inflicts Brainwash on the party, causing them to attack each other or heal and buff him. Even worse, he can follow it up with Mapsio, hitting Brainwashed characters for Technical damage. The worst part about this is that Makoto, the one party member at that point who can cure Brainwash, is weak to Psi. ''And'' he will always follow up a One More with Marakunda, ensuring your party won't survive another Mapsio. If you're unlucky, he can open the fight with Brain Jack ''before you even get a turn'', and if it hits the whole party, you're at a major disadvantage right from the start. He also has Eigaon, the endgame-tier Curse skill which skill, and it says a lot that that is the move you ''don't'' ''do'' want to see.see, simply because it only targets one character. And the very tip of the iceberg? He's at Level 47 with a whopping total of '''''65''''' Magic. So unless you have Null Brainwash, Null Psy, Null Curse, Null Physical, or all of the above, you know there's a problem.
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The trope is that jerks are worst than villains. Not some villains being worst than other villains.
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* JerksAreWorseThanVillains: ''Persona 5'' has enemies being taken on by the Phantom Thieves, which range from a corrupt yakuza crime lord to a corporate overlord to someone who wants to rule all of Japan with an iron fist. And yet, the most memorable and biggest HateSink in the game is the first villain, Suguru Kamoshida, a gym teacher and volleyball coach at the protagonist's high school that has nothing to do with TheConspiracy surrounding the overall plot. Kamoshida leaks Joker's criminal record to make him a pariah among [[GossipyHens the students]] only because a "delinquent" has no business coming to a prestigious school, breaks Ryuji's leg and disbands the track team after Ryuji took a swing at him (despite egging Ryuji on to do it) with the school calling it self-defense, and is forcing Ann to do sexual favors for him in order for Ann's friend Shiho to keep her spot on the volleyball team. Following Ann refusing to sleep with him, Kamoshida is heavily implied to sexually assault Shiho, which causes her to decide that she can't take it anymore, and is DrivenToSuicide by jumping off of the school's roof (though she survives). In spite of the other villains having much larger crimes and much more of an impact on the social order of Japan, it's Kamoshida who is typically thought of as the most loathsome antagonist in the game, and one of the most despised in the entire ''Persona'' series.
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* GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff: The reaction to the Phantom Thieves in Japan is mixed, seeing as the archetype of the PhantomThief is more associated with gaudiness and camp. Meanwhile, Western fans tend to think of thieves who [[JustLikeRobinHood target the powerful and help the powerless]] more as badass rebels, in addition to America's greater emphasis on personal freedom and battling corrupt institutions. As a result, audience reception in the West has been much more favorable towards the goals of the Phantom Thieves.
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* GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff: GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff:
The reaction to the Phantom Thieves in Japan is mixed, seeing as the archetype of the PhantomThief is more associated with gaudiness and camp. Meanwhile, Western fans tend to think of thieves who [[JustLikeRobinHood target the powerful and help the powerless]] more as badass rebels, in addition to America's greater emphasis on personal freedom and battling corrupt institutions. As a result, audience reception in the West has been much more favorable towards the goals of the PhantomThieves.Thieves.
*
The reaction to the Phantom Thieves in Japan is mixed, seeing as the archetype of the PhantomThief is more associated with gaudiness and camp. Meanwhile, Western fans tend to think of thieves who [[JustLikeRobinHood target the powerful and help the powerless]] more as badass rebels, in addition to America's greater emphasis on personal freedom and battling corrupt institutions. As a result, audience reception in the West has been much more favorable towards the goals of the Phantom
*
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* JerksAreWorseThanVillains: ''Persona 5'' has enemies being taken on by the Phantom Thieves, which range from a corrupt yakuza crime lord to a corporate overlord to someone who wants to rule all of Japan with an iron fist. And yet, the most memorable and biggest HateSink in the game is the first villain, Suguru Kamoshida, a gym teacher and volleyball coach at the protagonist's high school that has nothing to do with TheConspiracy surrounding the overall plot. Kamoshida leaks Joker's criminal record to make him a pariah among the students, breaks Ryuji's leg and disbands the track team after Ryuji took a swing at him (despite egging Ryuji on to do it), and is forcing Ann to do sexual favors for him in order for Ann's friend Shiho to keep her spot on the volleyball team. When Shiho can't take it anymore, she's DrivenToSuicide by jumping off of the school's roof (though she survives). In spite of the other villains having much larger crimes and much more of an impact on the social order of Japan, it's Kamoshida who is typically thought of as the most loathsome antagonist in the game, and one of the most despised in the entire ''Persona'' series.
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* JerksAreWorseThanVillains: ''Persona 5'' has enemies being taken on by the Phantom Thieves, which range from a corrupt yakuza crime lord to a corporate overlord to someone who wants to rule all of Japan with an iron fist. And yet, the most memorable and biggest HateSink in the game is the first villain, Suguru Kamoshida, a gym teacher and volleyball coach at the protagonist's high school that has nothing to do with TheConspiracy surrounding the overall plot. Kamoshida leaks Joker's criminal record to make him a pariah among [[GossipyHens the students, students]] only because a "delinquent" has no business coming to a prestigious school, breaks Ryuji's leg and disbands the track team after Ryuji took a swing at him (despite egging Ryuji on to do it), it) with the school calling it self-defense, and is forcing Ann to do sexual favors for him in order for Ann's friend Shiho to keep her spot on the volleyball team. When Shiho Following Ann refusing to sleep with him, Kamoshida is heavily implied to sexually assault Shiho, which causes her to decide that she can't take it anymore, she's and is DrivenToSuicide by jumping off of the school's roof (though she survives). In spite of the other villains having much larger crimes and much more of an impact on the social order of Japan, it's Kamoshida who is typically thought of as the most loathsome antagonist in the game, and one of the most despised in the entire ''Persona'' series.
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** As if Kamoshida's lust and sexual harassment of students wasn't bad enough, one of the minibosses of his dungeon is a ''slime Mara''. They couldn't make the party fight an endgame-tier demon like Mara in the first dungeon, so they put in just the tip.
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** As if Kamoshida's physical abuse of the male students and lust and sexual harassment of the female students wasn't bad enough, one of the minibosses of his dungeon is a ''slime Mara''.[[GagPenis Mara]]''. They couldn't make the party fight an endgame-tier demon like Mara in the first dungeon, so they put in just the tip.
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** With the release of ''Royal'', ''Creator/BillyKametz'' has gained notice for his role as Maruki. He really sells that Maruki is a kind hearted therapist who genuinely wants to help the students of Shujin, especially when nearly every other adult is apathetic at best. But he truly becomes a stand out [[spoiler:during the final arc when he becomes the final AntiVillain antagonist. As we see all of his painful past leading up to when he gained his Persona, Billy really brings out the suffering he has gone through. And the final confrontation with him, especially when [[VillainousBreakdown he begins to break down]] over knowing that his world will never come to pass is absolutely heart breaking, largely due to Billy's performance.]]
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** With the release of ''Royal'', ''Creator/BillyKametz'' has gained notice for his role as Maruki. He really sells that Maruki is a kind hearted therapist who genuinely wants to help the students of Shujin, especially when [[AdultsAreUseless nearly every other adult is apathetic at best.best]]. But he truly becomes a stand out [[spoiler:during the final arc when he becomes the final AntiVillain antagonist. As we see all of his painful past leading up to when he gained his Persona, Billy really brings out the suffering he has gone through. And the final confrontation with him, especially when [[VillainousBreakdown he begins to break down]] over knowing that his world will never come to pass is absolutely heart breaking, largely due to Billy's performance.]]
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** Ryuji Sakamoto is ostracized by his former track teammates because he was indirectly responsible for getting the team shut down-even though he was trying to call out Kamoshida's abusive behavior, and while he's definitely not disliked by the other Thieves, he’s definitely the ButtMonkey of the group and they, [[JerkassToOne especially Morgana]], tend to make comments at his expense. Needless to say, [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff the Western fanbase]] ''adores'' Ryuji due to his endearing, friendly personality and [[HeterosexualLifePartners bromance with the protagonist]], and [[DudeNotFunny many of his fans are not fond of]] [[spoiler:the scene where he gets [[DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale beaten up offscreen by the female Thieves while the males do nothing to stop them]] after they escape the last palace]].
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* JerksAreWorseThanVillains: ''Persona 5'' has enemies being taken on by the Phantom Thieves, which range from a corrupt yakuza crime lord to a corporate overlord to someone who wants to rule all of Japan with an iron fist. And yet, the most memorable and biggest HateSink in the game is the first villain, Suguru Kamoshida, a gym teacher and volleyball coach at the protagonist's high school that has nothing to do with TheConspiracy surrounding the overall plot. Kamoshida leaks Joker's criminal record to make him a pariah among the students, breaks Ryuji's leg and disbands the track team after Ryuji took a swing at him (despite egging Ryuji on to do it), and is forcing Ann to do sexual favors for him in order for Ann's friend Shiho to keep her spot on the volleyball team. When Shiho can't take it anymore, she's DrivenToSuicide by jumping off of the school's roof (though she survives). In spite of the other villains having much larger crimes and much more of an impact on the social order of Japan, it's Kamoshida who is typically thought of as the most loathsome antagonist in the game, and one of the most despised in the entire ''Persona'' series.
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* FanPreferredCutContent: Since the game has a lot of DummiedOut content, some of it naturally ends up getting this reaction.
** Some unused events showed the Phantom Thieves having more hangout events in the late fall or winter. Some fans appreciate how the SliceOfLife scenes help show the Phantom Thieves as TrueCompanions, and like how they give more screentime to characters like Haru and Kasumi.
** Originally, ''[[UpdatedRerelease Royal]]'' would have had flashbacks in the Will Seed chambers showing a part of the Palace ruler's StartOfDarkness, such as a scandal Kamoshida was involved in as an Olympian, or when Madarame [[spoiler:let Yusuke's mother die]]. Some fans like these cut scenes for showing the Palace rulers' backstories in more depth.
** The game originally had a "Distrust" mechanic for Confidants that's similar to the possibility of Reversing Social Links in previous games, thereby rendering them unavailable until the player reconciles with the person in question. Some people like the possibility of losing your Confidants' trust and think it would make your decisions with regards to Confidants matter more. However, since Reversing Social Links is a ScrappyMechanic in many circles, other players are glad that it's completely gone from 5 after being much rarer in 4(where there were only three instances in which it was possible), and/or believe that it wouldn't make sense for Confidants, which are business relationships as well as friendships.
** Some unused events showed the Phantom Thieves having more hangout events in the late fall or winter. Some fans appreciate how the SliceOfLife scenes help show the Phantom Thieves as TrueCompanions, and like how they give more screentime to characters like Haru and Kasumi.
** Originally, ''[[UpdatedRerelease Royal]]'' would have had flashbacks in the Will Seed chambers showing a part of the Palace ruler's StartOfDarkness, such as a scandal Kamoshida was involved in as an Olympian, or when Madarame [[spoiler:let Yusuke's mother die]]. Some fans like these cut scenes for showing the Palace rulers' backstories in more depth.
** The game originally had a "Distrust" mechanic for Confidants that's similar to the possibility of Reversing Social Links in previous games, thereby rendering them unavailable until the player reconciles with the person in question. Some people like the possibility of losing your Confidants' trust and think it would make your decisions with regards to Confidants matter more. However, since Reversing Social Links is a ScrappyMechanic in many circles, other players are glad that it's completely gone from 5 after being much rarer in 4(where there were only three instances in which it was possible), and/or believe that it wouldn't make sense for Confidants, which are business relationships as well as friendships.
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I never heard of Okumura being known as one of the most heinous villains here (Shido and Kamoshida is worse than him by miles) and Values Dissonance plays itself badly in this case.
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* RealismInducedHorror:
** Part of the reason why [[StarterVillain Suguru Kamoshida]] is considered by players to be the best antagonist of the game is that people like him do exist in real life. Kamoshida is a realistic portrayal of a sexual predator who is given free rein to do whatever he wants under the protection of the system, simply because his talents make him a valuable asset. And unlike future palace rulers who are influential members of society such as a famous artist or head of a company, Kamoshida is just like any other ordinary school teacher that people can encounter on a daily basis.
** This is also part of why [[spoiler:Okumura]], the fifth Palace owner, is considered one of the most evil characters in the game and flies far, far into the realm of UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: he's a heavily corrupt CEO who treats his BurgerFool employees like dirt and gleefully treats them (as well as everyone else around him) as disposable, neglects his daughter, and even uses her as a bargaining chip to get into politics by forcing her to marry someone's son, an individual who clearly has no respect for her, treats her like property, and acts like he's only a single step away from raping her. He also is very, very much aware of everything he's doing, with the game making it very clear that he doesn't care about anyone but himself [[spoiler:until the moment he dies]]. If you've ever known someone who has power over you that you can't run away from without great harm to yourself, yet is completely unfit to hold any power at all, you've experienced this villain's evil firsthand.
** Part of the reason why [[StarterVillain Suguru Kamoshida]] is considered by players to be the best antagonist of the game is that people like him do exist in real life. Kamoshida is a realistic portrayal of a sexual predator who is given free rein to do whatever he wants under the protection of the system, simply because his talents make him a valuable asset. And unlike future palace rulers who are influential members of society such as a famous artist or head of a company, Kamoshida is just like any other ordinary school teacher that people can encounter on a daily basis.
** This is also part of why [[spoiler:Okumura]], the fifth Palace owner, is considered one of the most evil characters in the game and flies far, far into the realm of UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: he's a heavily corrupt CEO who treats his BurgerFool employees like dirt and gleefully treats them (as well as everyone else around him) as disposable, neglects his daughter, and even uses her as a bargaining chip to get into politics by forcing her to marry someone's son, an individual who clearly has no respect for her, treats her like property, and acts like he's only a single step away from raping her. He also is very, very much aware of everything he's doing, with the game making it very clear that he doesn't care about anyone but himself [[spoiler:until the moment he dies]]. If you've ever known someone who has power over you that you can't run away from without great harm to yourself, yet is completely unfit to hold any power at all, you've experienced this villain's evil firsthand.
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* RealismInducedHorror:
**RealismInducedHorror: Part of the reason why [[StarterVillain Suguru Kamoshida]] is considered by players to be the best antagonist of the game is that people like him do exist in real life. Kamoshida is a realistic portrayal of a sexual predator who is given free rein to do whatever he wants under the protection of the system, simply because his talents make him a valuable asset. And unlike future palace rulers who are influential members of society such as a famous artist or head of a company, Kamoshida is just like any other ordinary school teacher that people can encounter on a daily basis.
** This is also part of why [[spoiler:Okumura]], the fifth Palace owner, is considered one of the most evil characters in the game and flies far, far into the realm of UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: he's a heavily corrupt CEO who treats his BurgerFool employees like dirt and gleefully treats them (as well as everyone else around him) as disposable, neglects his daughter, and even uses her as a bargaining chip to get into politics by forcing her to marry someone's son, an individual who clearly has no respect for her, treats her like property, and acts like he's only a single step away from raping her. He also is very, very much aware of everything he's doing, with the game making it very clear that he doesn't care about anyone but himself [[spoiler:until the moment he dies]]. If you've ever known someone who has power over you that you can't run away from without great harm to yourself, yet is completely unfit to hold any power at all, you've experienced this villain's evil firsthand.basis.
**
** This is also part of why [[spoiler:Okumura]], the fifth Palace owner, is considered one of the most evil characters in the game and flies far, far into the realm of UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: he's a heavily corrupt CEO who treats his BurgerFool employees like dirt and gleefully treats them (as well as everyone else around him) as disposable, neglects his daughter, and even uses her as a bargaining chip to get into politics by forcing her to marry someone's son, an individual who clearly has no respect for her, treats her like property, and acts like he's only a single step away from raping her. He also is very, very much aware of everything he's doing, with the game making it very clear that he doesn't care about anyone but himself [[spoiler:until the moment he dies]]. If you've ever known someone who has power over you that you can't run away from without great harm to yourself, yet is completely unfit to hold any power at all, you've experienced this villain's evil firsthand.
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* RealismInducedHorror: Part of the reason why [[StarterVillain Suguru Kamoshida]] is considered by players to be the best antagonist of the game is that people like him do exist in real life. Kamoshida is a realistic portrayal of a sexual predator who is given free rein to do whatever he wants under the protection of the system, simply because his talents make him a valuable asset. And unlike future palace rulers who are influential members of society such as a famous artist or head of a company, Kamoshida is just like any other ordinary school teacher that people can encounter on a daily basis.
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* RealismInducedHorror: RealismInducedHorror:
** Part of the reason why [[StarterVillain Suguru Kamoshida]] is considered by players to be the best antagonist of the game is that people like him do exist in real life. Kamoshida is a realistic portrayal of a sexual predator who is given free rein to do whatever he wants under the protection of the system, simply because his talents make him a valuable asset. And unlike future palace rulers who are influential members of society such as a famous artist or head of a company, Kamoshida is just like any other ordinary school teacher that people can encounter on a dailybasis.basis.
** This is also part of why [[spoiler:Okumura]], the fifth Palace owner, is considered one of the most evil characters in the game and flies far, far into the realm of UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: he's a heavily corrupt CEO who treats his BurgerFool employees like dirt and gleefully treats them (as well as everyone else around him) as disposable, neglects his daughter, and even uses her as a bargaining chip to get into politics by forcing her to marry someone's son, an individual who clearly has no respect for her, treats her like property, and acts like he's only a single step away from raping her. He also is very, very much aware of everything he's doing, with the game making it very clear that he doesn't care about anyone but himself [[spoiler:until the moment he dies]]. If you've ever known someone who has power over you that you can't run away from without great harm to yourself, yet is completely unfit to hold any power at all, you've experienced this villain's evil firsthand.
** Part of the reason why [[StarterVillain Suguru Kamoshida]] is considered by players to be the best antagonist of the game is that people like him do exist in real life. Kamoshida is a realistic portrayal of a sexual predator who is given free rein to do whatever he wants under the protection of the system, simply because his talents make him a valuable asset. And unlike future palace rulers who are influential members of society such as a famous artist or head of a company, Kamoshida is just like any other ordinary school teacher that people can encounter on a daily
** This is also part of why [[spoiler:Okumura]], the fifth Palace owner, is considered one of the most evil characters in the game and flies far, far into the realm of UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: he's a heavily corrupt CEO who treats his BurgerFool employees like dirt and gleefully treats them (as well as everyone else around him) as disposable, neglects his daughter, and even uses her as a bargaining chip to get into politics by forcing her to marry someone's son, an individual who clearly has no respect for her, treats her like property, and acts like he's only a single step away from raping her. He also is very, very much aware of everything he's doing, with the game making it very clear that he doesn't care about anyone but himself [[spoiler:until the moment he dies]]. If you've ever known someone who has power over you that you can't run away from without great harm to yourself, yet is completely unfit to hold any power at all, you've experienced this villain's evil firsthand.
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*** '''Instead:''' He decides to ''bring the treasure with him when he goes to confront the Phantom Thieves''. He may as well have gift-wrapped the treasure and served it on a silver platter to the thieves, because after they defeat Shadow Madarame, they manage to easily change his heart because the treasure is literally right next to him just begging to be stolen and they don’t have to go look for it at all.
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*** '''Instead:''' He decides to ''bring the treasure with him when he goes to confront the Phantom Thieves''.Thieves'' [[ForTheEvulz for no reason but to provoke Yusuke]]. He may as well have gift-wrapped the treasure and served it on a silver platter to the thieves, because after they defeat Shadow Madarame, they manage to easily change his heart because the treasure is literally right next to him just begging to be stolen and they don’t have to go look for it at all.
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Early game
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** [[spoiler: At the end of Madarame’s palace, after he receives his calling card and his treasure materializes, the Thieves infiltrate the palace and try to steal it, only to discover that Shadow Madarame had thought ahead and replaced the real treasure with a fake one to fool the Phantom Thieves and lay an ambush for them. The plan works and the thieves end up stealing the fake treasure]].
*** '''You’d Expect:''' [[spoiler: For Shadow Madarame to hide the real treasure somewhere in his palace where the Phantom Thieves would never find it BEFORE confronting them. After all, the museum is huge and there’s plenty of places to hide stuff in it, so it would take hours, if not days for the Phantom Thieves to search every nook and cranny in the place. As a bonus, even if the ambush fails and Shadow Madarame is defeated, the Thieves wouldn’t be able to change his heart because they wouldn’t know where his treasure is or where to look for it, thus making their efforts practically fruitless. And even if they had a chance of finding it, it would still take a while for them to find the treasure, which could buy Shadow Madarame plenty of time to recover and rebuild his defenses]].
*** '''Instead:''' [[spoiler: He decides to ''bring the treasure with him when he goes to confront the Phantom Thieves''. He may as well have gift-wrapped the treasure and served it on a silver platter to the thieves, because after they defeat Shadow Madarame, they manage to easily change his heart because the treasure is literally right next to him just begging to be stolen and they don’t have to go look for it at all]].
*** '''You’d Expect:''' [[spoiler: For Shadow Madarame to hide the real treasure somewhere in his palace where the Phantom Thieves would never find it BEFORE confronting them. After all, the museum is huge and there’s plenty of places to hide stuff in it, so it would take hours, if not days for the Phantom Thieves to search every nook and cranny in the place. As a bonus, even if the ambush fails and Shadow Madarame is defeated, the Thieves wouldn’t be able to change his heart because they wouldn’t know where his treasure is or where to look for it, thus making their efforts practically fruitless. And even if they had a chance of finding it, it would still take a while for them to find the treasure, which could buy Shadow Madarame plenty of time to recover and rebuild his defenses]].
*** '''Instead:''' [[spoiler: He decides to ''bring the treasure with him when he goes to confront the Phantom Thieves''. He may as well have gift-wrapped the treasure and served it on a silver platter to the thieves, because after they defeat Shadow Madarame, they manage to easily change his heart because the treasure is literally right next to him just begging to be stolen and they don’t have to go look for it at all]].
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** [[spoiler: At the end of Madarame’s palace, after he receives his calling card and his treasure materializes, the Thieves infiltrate the palace and try to steal it, only to discover that Shadow Madarame had thought ahead and replaced the real treasure with a fake one to fool the Phantom Thieves and lay an ambush for them. The plan works and the thieves end up stealing the fake treasure]].
treasure.
*** '''You’d Expect:'''[[spoiler: For Shadow Madarame to hide the real treasure somewhere in his palace where the Phantom Thieves would never find it BEFORE confronting them. After all, the museum is huge and there’s plenty of places to hide stuff in it, so it would take hours, if not days for the Phantom Thieves to search every nook and cranny in the place. As a bonus, even if the ambush fails and Shadow Madarame is defeated, the Thieves wouldn’t be able to change his heart because they wouldn’t know where his treasure is or where to look for it, thus making their efforts practically fruitless. And even if they had a chance of finding it, it would still take a while for them to find the treasure, which could buy Shadow Madarame plenty of time to recover and rebuild his defenses]].
defenses.
*** '''Instead:'''[[spoiler: He decides to ''bring the treasure with him when he goes to confront the Phantom Thieves''. He may as well have gift-wrapped the treasure and served it on a silver platter to the thieves, because after they defeat Shadow Madarame, they manage to easily change his heart because the treasure is literally right next to him just begging to be stolen and they don’t have to go look for it at all]].all.
*** '''You’d Expect:'''
*** '''Instead:'''
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** [[spoiler: At the end of Madarame’s palace, after he receives his calling card and his treasure materializes, the Thieves infiltrate the palace and try to steal it, only to discover that Shadow Madarame had thought ahead and replaced the real treasure with a fake one to fool the Phantom Thieves and lay an ambush for them. The plan works and the thieves end up stealing the fake treasure]].
*** '''You’d Expect:''' [[spoiler: For Shadow Madarame to hide the real treasure somewhere in his palace where the Phantom Thieves would never find it BEFORE confronting them. After all, the museum is huge and there’s plenty of places to hide stuff in it, so it would take hours, if not days for the Phantom Thieves to search every nook and cranny in the place. As a bonus, even if the ambush fails and Shadow Madarame is defeated, the Thieves wouldn’t be able to change his heart because they wouldn’t know where his treasure is or where to look for it, thus making their efforts practically fruitless. And even if they had a chance of finding it, it would still take a while for them to find the treasure, which could buy Shadow Madarame plenty of time to recover and rebuild his defenses]].
*** '''Instead:''' [[spoiler: He decides to ''bring the treasure with him when he goes to confront the Phantom Thieves''. He may as well have gift-wrapped the treasure and served it on a silver platter to the thieves, because after they defeat Shadow Madarame, they manage to easily change his heart because the treasure is literally right next to him just begging to be stolen and they don’t have to go look for it at all]].
*** '''You’d Expect:''' [[spoiler: For Shadow Madarame to hide the real treasure somewhere in his palace where the Phantom Thieves would never find it BEFORE confronting them. After all, the museum is huge and there’s plenty of places to hide stuff in it, so it would take hours, if not days for the Phantom Thieves to search every nook and cranny in the place. As a bonus, even if the ambush fails and Shadow Madarame is defeated, the Thieves wouldn’t be able to change his heart because they wouldn’t know where his treasure is or where to look for it, thus making their efforts practically fruitless. And even if they had a chance of finding it, it would still take a while for them to find the treasure, which could buy Shadow Madarame plenty of time to recover and rebuild his defenses]].
*** '''Instead:''' [[spoiler: He decides to ''bring the treasure with him when he goes to confront the Phantom Thieves''. He may as well have gift-wrapped the treasure and served it on a silver platter to the thieves, because after they defeat Shadow Madarame, they manage to easily change his heart because the treasure is literally right next to him just begging to be stolen and they don’t have to go look for it at all]].
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** Another one is [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth. He impersonates as Igor and he doesn't do a good job at it. His voice is extremely rough unlike the soft spoken Igor, and he acts ''absolutely nothing'' like the real one. [[note]]The real Igor will never refer to his guest's journey as a game nor will he imprison Joker in the Velvet Room for an eternity for the slightest mistakes[[/note]] He doesn't even try to speak like the real deal, most notably "Welcome to '''my''' Velvet Room" instead of "'''the''' Velvet Room" as his introductory scene. Joker also meets him right during the night after the Shido probation incident, as if the incident has the sole intent of dragging him right into his schemes.]]
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** Another one is [[spoiler:Yaldabaoth. He impersonates as Igor and he doesn't do a good job at it. His voice is extremely rough unlike the soft spoken Igor, and he acts ''absolutely nothing'' like the real one. [[note]]The ]] [[labelnote:spoilers]]The real Igor will never refer to his guest's journey as a game nor will he imprison Joker in the Velvet Room for an eternity for the slightest mistakes[[/note]] He mistakes[[/labelnote]] [[spoiler:He doesn't even try to speak like the real deal, most notably "Welcome to '''my''' Velvet Room" instead of "'''the''' Velvet Room" as his introductory scene. Joker also meets him right during the night after the Shido probation incident, as if the incident has the sole intent of dragging him right into his schemes.]]
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** Ryuji's NoIndoorVoice tendencies nearly got the Phantom Thieves in trouble twice: once with Makoto blackmailing them after recording him and him speaking too loudly on the phone, allowing her to hear him, and once as a slip of the tongue in a sushi restaurant. But fans tend to treat Ryuji as if he loudly announces that he's a Phantom Thief at every moment he can. In fact, during the first time it happens, Ann's voice is recorded as well, but she doesn't get as much attention as Ryuji does for this.
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** Ryuji's NoIndoorVoice tendencies nearly got the Phantom Thieves in trouble twice: once with Makoto blackmailing them after recording him and him speaking too loudly on the phone, allowing her to hear him, and once as a slip of the tongue in a sushi restaurant. But fans tend to treat Ryuji as if he loudly announces that he's a Phantom Thief at every moment he can. In fact, during the first time it happens, Ann's voice is recorded as well, but she doesn't get as much attention blame as Ryuji does for this.
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** Ryuji, being [[IdiotHero Ryuji]], exclaims quite loudly about how he and his friends are part of a wanted criminal group several times throughout the story. ''In public.'' Naturally, this comes back to bite the group in the ass at one point when Makoto records him saying it and again when Makoto confronts Joker over the recording at which point Ryuji calls Joker and once again says quite loudly about how they need to have a Phantom Thieves meeting. Later everyone calls him out on this. He even does it ''again'' after the Makoto incident when the group is celebrating at a sushi bar after their latest heist, which makes Ryuji's actions border on TooDumbToLive. It's gotten to the point where Ryuji declaring that he's a Phantom Thief is one of the biggest [[MemeticMutation memes]] in the game.
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** Ryuji, being [[IdiotHero Ryuji]], exclaims quite loudly about how he and his friends are part of a wanted criminal group several times throughout the story. ''In public.'' Naturally, this comes back to bite the group in the ass at one point when Makoto records him saying it and Ann talking about the subject and again when Makoto confronts Joker over the recording at which point Ryuji calls Joker and once again says quite loudly about how they need to have a Phantom Thieves meeting. Later everyone calls him out on this. He even does it ''again'' after the Makoto incident when the group is celebrating at a sushi bar after their latest heist, which makes Ryuji's actions border on TooDumbToLive. It's gotten to the point where Ryuji declaring that he's a Phantom Thief is one of the biggest [[MemeticMutation memes]] in the game.
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** One of the hints towards the biggest twist in the game is considerably easier to figure out in the English version than it is in the Japanese version. [[spoiler:The fact that Igor is an impostor. Igor's Japanese voice actor passed away, justifying his change of voice. So Japanese fans would be less likely to question the change. Igor's English VA, however, is still alive and available, which makes it a lot more suspicious that he'd now be played not only by a totally different actor, but one that doesn't even attempt to sound the same as the old voice. Naturally, False Igor's deep, menacing voice is because he was a villain all along; the real Igor does have [[Creator/KirkThornton a new voice actor]], but he makes an effort to sound like the [[Creator/DanWoren original]].]]
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** One of the hints towards the biggest twist in the game is considerably easier to figure out in the English version than it is in the Japanese version. [[spoiler:The fact that Igor is an impostor. Igor's Japanese voice actor passed away, justifying his change of voice. So Japanese fans would be less likely to question the change. Igor's English VA, however, is still alive and available, which makes it a lot more suspicious that he'd now be played not only by a totally different actor, but one that doesn't even attempt to sound the same as the old voice. Naturally, False Igor's deep, menacing voice is because he was a villain all along; the real Igor does have [[Creator/KirkThornton a new voice actor]], actor in the English version of the game]], but he makes an effort to sound like the [[Creator/DanWoren original]].]]]][[labelnote:Spoiler]]In the Japanese version, the real Igor doesn't even have a new voice actor and simply uses recycled dialogue from ''Persona 3'' or ''Persona 4''[[/labelnote]]
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** [[spoiler:Akechi]] being Black Mask. [[spoiler:He joins right before Sae's dungeon, where the player knows that the plans for the heist will be leaked to the police, acts suspicious towards the Thieves prior to joining them and has established that he disagrees with their methods]]. Played with since the twist is ultimately [[spoiler:that the heroes realized this early on and used it as part of their gambit.]]
** Similarly, [[spoiler:Shido being the [[BigBad main villain]] or at least an important one. Not only does he have a [[InterfaceSpoiler portrait in the dialog boxes]] just about every time he shows up, the game drops hints he's a corrupt person in a position of power.]]
** Similarly, [[spoiler:Shido being the [[BigBad main villain]] or at least an important one. Not only does he have a [[InterfaceSpoiler portrait in the dialog boxes]] just about every time he shows up, the game drops hints he's a corrupt person in a position of power.]]
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** [[spoiler:Akechi]] being Black Mask. [[spoiler:He joins right before Sae's dungeon, where the player knows that the plans for the heist will be leaked to the police, acts suspicious towards the Thieves prior to joining them and has established that he disagrees with their methods]]. Played with since the twist is ultimately [[spoiler:that the heroes realized this early on and used it as part of their gambit.gambit to keep Joker alive.]]
** Similarly, [[spoiler:Shido being the [[BigBad main villain]] or at least an important one. Not only does he have a [[InterfaceSpoiler portrait in the dialogboxes]] boxes]], just about every time he shows up, the game drops hints he's a corrupt person in a position of power.]]
** Similarly, [[spoiler:Shido being the [[BigBad main villain]] or at least an important one. Not only does he have a [[InterfaceSpoiler portrait in the dialog
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YMMV can't be Played With. Plus, the game shows he's willing to take human shields and even outright brainwash people just for rejecting his reality; that sounds pretty villainous to me.
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* DesignatedVillain: [[spoiler:Maruki]] is a very, ''very'' downplayed example. Overall, the game takes pains to show his point of view, never portrays him as evil or malicious, and the ending where [[spoiler:you take his offer to stay in his altered reality is portrayed much more positively than a truly bad ending would]]. Despite this, the narrative slightly leans towards opposing his views and actions, which bothers people who see him as 100% justified.
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* DesignatedVillain: [[spoiler:Maruki]] is a very, ''very'' downplayed example. Overall, the game takes pains to show his point of view, never portrays him as evil or malicious, and the ending where [[spoiler:you take his offer to stay in his altered reality is portrayed much more positively than a truly bad ending would]]. Despite this, the narrative slightly leans towards opposing his views and actions, which bothers people who see him as 100% justified.
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** A rather subtle one occurs right after [[spoiler:Maruki confiscates Yoshizawa as a bargain chip for Joker and Akechi on February 2. Once you go back home from his Palace and meet Morgana, Akechi will phone you telling that he warned Yoshizawa's parents that their daughter might be in danger only for Maruki to had been manipulated them into thinking that she was in a training camp already. Could this be done by Maruki to lower their alert for their daughter missing for a week, or was it actually something that is done to make sure his bargain with Joker and Akechi is held private on both ends?]]
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** A rather subtle one occurs right after [[spoiler:Maruki confiscates Yoshizawa as a bargain chip for Joker and Akechi on February January 2. Once you go back home from his Palace and meet Morgana, Akechi will phone you telling that he warned Yoshizawa's parents that their daughter might be in danger only for Maruki to had been manipulated them into thinking that she was in a training camp already. Could this be done by Maruki to lower their alert for their daughter missing for a week, or was it actually something that is done to make sure his bargain with Joker and Akechi is held private on both ends?]]
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** [[spoiler:Maruki]] from ''Royal'' somewhat qualifies. [[spoiler:He just seemed overly nice and sympathetic... and sure enough, he's the final target you have to fight in order to save the world. The only different thing is that he's not actually evil, just controlled, and even then he had noble goals at best.]]
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** [[spoiler:Maruki]] from ''Royal'' somewhat qualifies. [[spoiler:He just seemed overly nice and sympathetic... and sure enough, he's the final target you have to fight in order to save the world. The only different thing real twist, in this case, is that he's not actually evil, just controlled, [[AffablyEvil a complete nice guy]] with [[WellIntentionedExtremist good intentions]] and even then he had noble goals at best.absolutely no malice or hatred towards the Phantom Thieves.]]
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** The protagonist being beaten up after Valentines Day for two-timing any of the girls he's dated can become this. Two-timing just a few of them leads to an uncomfortable case of DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale (especially given the possibility that he wasn't cheating on any of them that day but just hanging out with Ryuji), but eight or nine of them (or ten in ''Royal'')? Hilarious, and generally considered ''completely'' fair.
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** The guardian of the last Will Seed in the final Palace in ''Royal'' is a single Fafnir, the same as the ones you've already seen throughout the Palace, except with slightly more HP and access to Megidolaon. While Fafnir is a tough DemonicSpider, it's ''still'' mostly a normal enemy, so the player should have a plan to defeat it by now.
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** Despite [[spoiler:witnessing her father get brutally murdered]], Haru's grief is rather glossed over. She surprisingly manages to bounce back in a couple of days. When the rest of the Thieves try and comfort her, she seems more concerned about [[spoiler:the evidence used to frame them]]. Even in her own Confidant, the focus was more centred around her ArrangedMarriage that it was [[spoiler:coping with her father's death.]]
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** Despite [[spoiler:witnessing her father get brutally murdered]], Haru's grief is rather glossed over.over in the Vanilla version. She surprisingly manages to bounce back in a couple of days. When the rest of the Thieves try and comfort her, she seems more concerned about [[spoiler:the evidence used to frame them]]. Even in her own Confidant, the focus was more centred around her ArrangedMarriage that it was [[spoiler:coping with her father's death.]] In ''Royal'', however, the events in the Third Semester [[spoiler:makes it more clear that she was still coping with her father's death and subconsciously still wishes for him to be alive and devoid of his darker ambitions.]]
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** Black Mask has gotten this treatment from players, mostly in the West, who believe their AlasPoorVillain moment was heavy-handed and poorly executed, as the Phantom Thieves asked them to rejoin even after [[MoralEventHorizon multiple people died from their own selfish whims]], including [[spoiler:Futaba's mother, Haru's father, and even attempting to betray and kill Joker, in addition to causing mental shutdowns that ruined a lot of Tokyo and hurt a lot of innocent people]] undermines how the Phantom Thieves treated most of their targets, where they force the targets into a life of atonement, while making it clear that no matter how much they atone, they can never be forgiven for their crimes. Even though they aren't actually making an exception for this person either, they just knew that they're being [[spoiler:used by TheHeavy to kill off anyone whom he perceive as his enemies for his very own dystopian plan]], thus making a difference between [[spoiler:"Hitman" and "Killer"]]. In fact, the [[spoiler:aforementioned heavy takes most of the blame for the Akechi's acts]]. However, many players were still not convinced by the game's attempts to shove most of the blame [[spoiler:to the heavy, pointing out that even though the heavy is the one who gave the orders, Akechi's murder of Okumura and cognitive Joker show that he is actually ''take pleasure'' in his killings, not to mention the fact that ''he'' was the one who approached the heavy offering his services as a hitman]]. All in all, Black Mask's detractors at best argue that they deserve at least some culpability.
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** Black Mask has gotten this treatment from players, mostly in the West, who believe their AlasPoorVillain moment was heavy-handed and poorly executed, as the Phantom Thieves asked them to rejoin even after [[MoralEventHorizon multiple people died from their own selfish whims]], including [[spoiler:Futaba's mother, Haru's father, and even attempting to betray and kill Joker, in addition to causing mental shutdowns that ruined a lot of Tokyo and hurt a lot of innocent people]] undermines how the Phantom Thieves treated most of their targets, where they force the targets into a life of atonement, while making it clear that no matter how much they atone, they can never be forgiven for their crimes. Even though they aren't actually making an exception for this person either, they just knew that they're being [[spoiler:used by TheHeavy to kill off anyone whom he perceive as his enemies for his very own dystopian plan]], thus making a difference between [[spoiler:"Hitman" and "Killer"]]. In fact, the [[spoiler:aforementioned heavy takes most of the blame for the Akechi's acts]]. However, many players were still not convinced by the game's attempts to shove most of the blame [[spoiler:to the heavy, pointing out that even though the heavy is the one who gave the orders, Akechi's murder of Okumura and cognitive Joker show that he is actually ''take pleasure'' in his killings, not to mention the fact that ''he'' was the one who approached the heavy offering his services as a hitman]]. All in all, Black Mask's detractors at best argue that they deserve at least some culpability.
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** In the original version of the game, the most commonly suggested Confidants to max out on a first playthrough for gameplay benefits (excluding your party members) were Hifumi, Kawakami, Mishima, and Chiya, all because of the incredible good skills and bonuses one gets from their Confidants. [[labelnote:Click here for details]]Hifumi's abilities made combat so much easier thanks to Baton passes, ability to swap out party members in battle, and an easier way of escaping battle. Kawakami provided ways to save time by having her cook, clean, or prep tools for you, on top of later giving you the means of going into Palaces/Mementos and still do night activities. Mishima flat out gives huge EXP bonuses and is easy to max out. Chiya provides abilities that greatly help on a second playthrough but her abilities also help get other Confidants leveled or help you get more money.[[/labelnote]] With Royal changing up some of the core gameplay elements like Baton pass, Hifumi is often replaced with Maruki due to the new abilities he gives you and [[spoiler:you must max his Confidant to gain access to the new scenario]], but Hifumi remains a highly ranked character still.
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** In the original version of the game, the most commonly suggested Confidants to max out on a first playthrough for gameplay benefits (excluding your party members) were Hifumi, Kawakami, Mishima, and Chiya, Chihaya, all because of the incredible good skills and bonuses one gets from their Confidants. [[labelnote:Click here for details]]Hifumi's abilities made combat so much easier thanks to Baton passes, ability to swap out party members in battle, and an easier way of escaping battle. Kawakami provided ways to save time by having her cook, clean, or prep tools for you, on top of later giving you the means of going into Palaces/Mementos and still do night activities. Mishima flat out gives huge EXP bonuses and is easy to max out. Chiya Chihaya provides abilities that greatly help on a second playthrough but her abilities also help get other Confidants leveled or help you get more money.[[/labelnote]] With Royal changing up some of the core gameplay elements like Baton pass, Hifumi is often replaced with Maruki due to the new abilities he gives you and [[spoiler:you must max his Confidant to gain access to the new scenario]], but Hifumi remains a highly ranked character still.
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** To some, the decision to steal Okumura's heart. After it's revealed that [[spoiler:the Conspiracy tricked the Thieves by hacking into the Phan-Site and pushing Okumura to the top of the polls, in order to lure them into a trap and dispose of a member who'd become a liability]], the Thieves lament that they've lost sight of their real goals. However, the group as a whole showed no signs of letting fame go to their head, and even hesitated about changing Okumura's heart despite popular demand until they met Haru. Ryuji was the only one who lamented at having to be a hero who works in the shadows, and everyone else lambastes him for wanting to be famous. Furthermore, Okumura had committed many of the same abuses of his power that the other targets had, and was the prime suspect for the mental shutdowns at the time. (Shadow Okumura confesses that he only ordered the assassinations as opposed to carrying them out himself, but that fact doesn't make what he did any better). Essentially, while the decision to steal Okumura's heart has disastrous consequences, it's hard to say that it wasn't justified.
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** To some, the decision to steal Okumura's heart. After it's revealed that [[spoiler:the Conspiracy tricked the Thieves by hacking into the Phan-Site and pushing Okumura to the top of the polls, in order to lure them into a trap and dispose of a member who'd become a liability]], the Thieves lament that they've lost sight of their real goals. However, the group as a whole showed no signs of letting fame go to their head, and even hesitated about changing Okumura's heart despite popular demand until they met Haru. Ryuji was the only one who lamented at having to be a hero who works in the shadows, and everyone else lambastes him for wanting to be famous. Furthermore, Okumura had committed many of the same abuses of his power that the other targets had, and was the prime suspect for the mental shutdowns at the time. (Shadow Okumura confesses that he only ordered requested some of the assassinations as opposed to carrying being responsible for them out himself, as a whole, but that fact doesn't make what he did any better). Essentially, while the decision to steal Okumura's heart has disastrous consequences, it's hard to say that it wasn't justified.
