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Added onto the Unintentionally Sympathetic entry with combinations from previous entries.
Changed line(s) 12 (click to see context) from:
* UnintentionallySympathetic: Jesse James. As mentioned in BrokenAesop, Jesse comes off as more likeable than Robert Ford at many points in the film.
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* UnintentionallySympathetic: Fuller made it clear that he wanted to portray Robert Ford in a more sympathetic light and paint UsefulNotes/JesseJames as the more vicious figure history agrees he was. However, some people find that the film [[BrokenAesop stumbles in this regard]], as Jesse James. As mentioned in BrokenAesop, Jesse James comes off as more likeable than [[VillainousValor very loyal]] and [[AFatherToHisMen willing to stick by his gang]] no matter what. Most of the bad things he does are OffscreenVillainy, with the opening robbery being the sole exception (though, since Robert Ford at many points also took part in the film. it, it raises questions over if [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality Bob is really that much better]]). He’s also respectful to his wife and does his best to please her, whereas Bob gets extremely possessive over [[LoveInterest Cynthy]] and can come off as a CrazyJealousGuy to most modern-day viewers.
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Seinfeld Is Unfunny clean-up
Deleted line(s) 11 (click to see context) :
* SeinfeldIsUnfunny: Most modern viewers probably don’t get why a film would go through such lengths to show UsefulNotes/JesseJames as a bad guy. Little do most know that it was made at a time when Jesse James was still widely seen and romanticized as a [[NobleDemon "noble outlaw"]] that [[JustLikeRobinHood helped the poor]], despite historical evidence painting a much different picture.
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None
Changed line(s) 9 (click to see context) from:
* QuestionableCasting: The real [[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Robert_Ford.jpg Bob Ford]] [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0409869/ wasn't nearly as good looking as Creator/JohnIreland. In fact, Ford looked like a young boy even well into his twenties.
to:
* QuestionableCasting: The real [[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Robert_Ford.jpg Bob Ford]] [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0409869/ wasn't nearly as good looking as as]] Creator/JohnIreland. In fact, Ford looked like a young boy even well into his twenties.
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Renamed some tropes.
* QuestionableCasting: The real [[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Robert_Ford.jpg Bob Ford]] [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0409869/ wasn't nearly as good looking as Creator/JohnIreland. In fact, Ford looked like a young boy even well into his twenties.
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and less bulky.
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and less bulky.
Changed line(s) 12 (click to see context) from:
* TheWoobie: Poor [[LoveInterest Cynthy Waters]] is stuck in a [[LoveTriangle love triangle]] with a charming lawman and her lifelong love. Her final decision ends up [[spoiler: leading one to kill the other]], making her live with her guilt for the rest of her life.
to:
* TheWoobie: Poor [[LoveInterest [[LoveInterests Cynthy Waters]] is stuck in a [[LoveTriangle love triangle]] LoveTriangle with a charming lawman and her lifelong love. Her final decision ends up [[spoiler: leading one to kill the other]], making her live with her guilt for the rest of her life.
Deleted line(s) 14,15 (click to see context) :
* WTHCastingAgency: The real [[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Robert_Ford.jpg Bob Ford]] [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0409869/ wasn't nearly as good looking as Creator/JohnIreland. In fact, Ford looked like a young boy even well into his twenties.
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and less bulky.
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and less bulky.
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None
Changed line(s) 14,15 (click to see context) from:
* WTHCastingAgency: The real [[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Robert_Ford.jpg Bob Ford]] wasn’t nearly as good looking as [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0409869/ John Ireland]]. In fact, Ford looked like a young boy even well into his twenties.
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and less bulky.
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and less bulky.
to:
* WTHCastingAgency: The real [[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Robert_Ford.jpg Bob Ford]] wasn’t nearly as good looking as [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0409869/ John Ireland]].wasn't nearly as good looking as Creator/JohnIreland. In fact, Ford looked like a young boy even well into his twenties.
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and lessbulky.bulky.
----
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and less
----
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Deleted line(s) 10 (click to see context) :
* SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped: The film makes it abundantly clear how people shouldn’t [[DracoInLeatherPants glorify legitimately terrible individuals]], but that makes the story and Ford’s downfall all the more powerful.
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Broken Aesop is not YMMV. I'm also removing Magnificent Bastard unless if it's been approved by the cleanup page
Deleted line(s) 3 (click to see context) :
* BrokenAesop: Fuller made it clear that he wanted to portray Robert Ford in a more sympathetic light and paint UsefulNotes/JesseJames as the more vicious figure history agrees he was. However, some people find that the film stumbles in this regard, as Jesse James comes off as [[VillainousValor very loyal]] and [[AFatherToHisMen willing to stick by his gang]] no matter what. Most of the bad things he does are OffscreenVillainy, with the opening robbery being the sole exception (though, since Robert Ford also took part in it, it raises questions over if [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality Bob is really that much better]]). He’s also respectful to his wife and does his best to please her, whereas Bob gets extremely possessive over [[LoveInterest Cynthy]] and can come off as a CrazyJealousGuy to most modern-day viewers.
Deleted line(s) 9 (click to see context) :
* MagnificentBastard: Frank James becomes this towards the last minutes of the film. [[spoiler: When his first plan to kill Bob goes south and he ends up in prison, he uses [[LoopholeAbuse legal maneuvering]] to get acquitted and not be transferred to another state where he is wanted. Then, having heard [[ExactEavesdropping Cynthy’s confession that she chose Kelley]], he confronts Bob in the hotel and tells him her confession, knowing that he’ll be driven into a rage and want to confront Kelley. Said rampage ends up killing Bob, allowing Frank to avenge his brother’s death without having to ever to pull the trigger]].
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Not YMMV.
Deleted line(s) 4 (click to see context) :
* FamilyUnfriendlyAesop: Even if you stop a definitively bad and dangerous person, people won’t treat you as a hero.
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Added the YMMV page for "I Shot Jesse James"
Added DiffLines:
* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Is Kelley [[AllLovingHero the universally good figure everyone considers him]], or is he just as selfish as Bob, but better at hiding his self-centeredness [[AffablyEvil through an affable personality]]? The scene where he reveals the actual ring thief can come off as him being more offended that Bob ''accused'' him than actually trying to fulfill the law. Not helped by the real-life [[AdaptationNameChange O'Kelley]], who was known to start fights and most likely killed Bob Ford [[DisproportionateRetribution for a relative slight]].
** Is Bob’s love for Jesse [[PlatonicDeclarationOfLove platonic]] or [[LoveConfession romantic]]? While Ford does spend all of the film’s running time trying to win Cynthy’s hand, his scenes with Jesse give him just as much (if not more) intimacy with the infamous outlaw. [[Creator/SamuelFuller Samuel Fuller's]] admission to playing up [[HoYay the homoerotic nature of the relationship]] blurs this discussion even further.
* BrokenAesop: Fuller made it clear that he wanted to portray Robert Ford in a more sympathetic light and paint UsefulNotes/JesseJames as the more vicious figure history agrees he was. However, some people find that the film stumbles in this regard, as Jesse James comes off as [[VillainousValor very loyal]] and [[AFatherToHisMen willing to stick by his gang]] no matter what. Most of the bad things he does are OffscreenVillainy, with the opening robbery being the sole exception (though, since Robert Ford also took part in it, it raises questions over if [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality Bob is really that much better]]). He’s also respectful to his wife and does his best to please her, whereas Bob gets extremely possessive over [[LoveInterest Cynthy]] and can come off as a CrazyJealousGuy to most modern-day viewers.
* FamilyUnfriendlyAesop: Even if you stop a definitively bad and dangerous person, people won’t treat you as a hero.
* HoYay: Oh boy, is there ever. The relationship between Jesse James and Bob Ford is so full of subtext that many would probably be shocked that this was made in ''[[TheForties 1949]]''. In some ways, it’s even more homoerotic than [[OlderThanTheyThink the more recent]] ''Film/TheAssassinationOfJesseJamesByTheCowardRobertFord''. It’s easier to just break down a few key scenes where the subtext comes through:
** When fleeing after the botched robbery, Jesse helps Bob with his gunshot wound. He opens his shirt and [[IntimateHealing gently massages Bob's shoulder]]. Even when Bob admits that he dropped the money from the robbery, Jesse tells him to not worry about it and [[EasilyForgiven forgives him as if it were nothing]]. Coming from a hardened outlaw, whose entire life is based on the take, his forgiveness comes off as something reserved for a very dear friend.
** Jesse lets Bob stay at his home in Missouri as he recovers from the bullet wound. He spends most of these scenes [[CharacterShilling talking about how much he enjoys Bob’s company]] and looks forward to doing [[OneLastJob one more job]] with him. Meanwhile, Jesse’s wife Zerelda talks about her disapproval of Bob and his brother. The intention seems to make her sound tired of hosting criminals in her house, but the tone could come off as if she’s ''jealous'' of Bob and doesn’t want to have competition in her affection for Jesse.
** The famous bath scene. Not only is Jesse naked in front of Bob, but he asks for Bob to help him bathe by washing his back. Oh, and said scene involves Jesse [[PhallicWeapon giving Bob a gun as a surprise]], and Bob [[DoesThisRemindYouOfAnything spending a good chunk of time lovingly caressing said gun]].
** [[spoiler: Bob’s death scene. As he lies dying in the street, his DyingDeclarationOfLove is not to Cynthy, the woman he’s been pursuing for the whole movie. No, he instead weeps that he loved Jesse and hated killing him.]]
* MagnificentBastard: Frank James becomes this towards the last minutes of the film. [[spoiler: When his first plan to kill Bob goes south and he ends up in prison, he uses [[LoopholeAbuse legal maneuvering]] to get acquitted and not be transferred to another state where he is wanted. Then, having heard [[ExactEavesdropping Cynthy’s confession that she chose Kelley]], he confronts Bob in the hotel and tells him her confession, knowing that he’ll be driven into a rage and want to confront Kelley. Said rampage ends up killing Bob, allowing Frank to avenge his brother’s death without having to ever to pull the trigger]].
* NarmCharm: The sheer degree of CharacterShilling Jesse does for Bob Ford can be a little silly, but it definitely helps highlight how much of a bond Jesse and Bob have.
* SeinfeldIsUnfunny: Most modern viewers probably don’t get why a film would go through such lengths to show UsefulNotes/JesseJames as a bad guy. Little do most know that it was made at a time when Jesse James was still widely seen and romanticized as a [[NobleDemon "noble outlaw"]] that [[JustLikeRobinHood helped the poor]], despite historical evidence painting a much different picture.
* SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped: The film makes it abundantly clear how people shouldn’t [[DracoInLeatherPants glorify legitimately terrible individuals]], but that makes the story and Ford’s downfall all the more powerful.
* TearJerker: During [[{{Dramatization}} the stage show recreating his murder of Jesse James]], Bob begins to have flashbacks to that day and finds he can’t shoot the actor with the blanks. After staring out at the audience for several seconds, he walks offstage with the crowd booing him.
* UnintentionallySympathetic: Jesse James. As mentioned in BrokenAesop, Jesse comes off as more likeable than Robert Ford at many points in the film.
* TheWoobie: Poor [[LoveInterest Cynthy Waters]] is stuck in a [[LoveTriangle love triangle]] with a charming lawman and her lifelong love. Her final decision ends up [[spoiler: leading one to kill the other]], making her live with her guilt for the rest of her life.
** JerkassWoobie: Robert Ford is a brash and sometimes very possessive young man that rubs some people the wrong way. But in the end, all he wants to do is [[IJustWantToBeNormal settle down with Cynthy and become a farmer]]. This is hard to do when he’s so notorious that he can’t walk down the street without being shot at.
* WTHCastingAgency: The real [[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Robert_Ford.jpg Bob Ford]] wasn’t nearly as good looking as [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0409869/ John Ireland]]. In fact, Ford looked like a young boy even well into his twenties.
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and less bulky.
** Is Bob’s love for Jesse [[PlatonicDeclarationOfLove platonic]] or [[LoveConfession romantic]]? While Ford does spend all of the film’s running time trying to win Cynthy’s hand, his scenes with Jesse give him just as much (if not more) intimacy with the infamous outlaw. [[Creator/SamuelFuller Samuel Fuller's]] admission to playing up [[HoYay the homoerotic nature of the relationship]] blurs this discussion even further.
* BrokenAesop: Fuller made it clear that he wanted to portray Robert Ford in a more sympathetic light and paint UsefulNotes/JesseJames as the more vicious figure history agrees he was. However, some people find that the film stumbles in this regard, as Jesse James comes off as [[VillainousValor very loyal]] and [[AFatherToHisMen willing to stick by his gang]] no matter what. Most of the bad things he does are OffscreenVillainy, with the opening robbery being the sole exception (though, since Robert Ford also took part in it, it raises questions over if [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality Bob is really that much better]]). He’s also respectful to his wife and does his best to please her, whereas Bob gets extremely possessive over [[LoveInterest Cynthy]] and can come off as a CrazyJealousGuy to most modern-day viewers.
* FamilyUnfriendlyAesop: Even if you stop a definitively bad and dangerous person, people won’t treat you as a hero.
* HoYay: Oh boy, is there ever. The relationship between Jesse James and Bob Ford is so full of subtext that many would probably be shocked that this was made in ''[[TheForties 1949]]''. In some ways, it’s even more homoerotic than [[OlderThanTheyThink the more recent]] ''Film/TheAssassinationOfJesseJamesByTheCowardRobertFord''. It’s easier to just break down a few key scenes where the subtext comes through:
** When fleeing after the botched robbery, Jesse helps Bob with his gunshot wound. He opens his shirt and [[IntimateHealing gently massages Bob's shoulder]]. Even when Bob admits that he dropped the money from the robbery, Jesse tells him to not worry about it and [[EasilyForgiven forgives him as if it were nothing]]. Coming from a hardened outlaw, whose entire life is based on the take, his forgiveness comes off as something reserved for a very dear friend.
** Jesse lets Bob stay at his home in Missouri as he recovers from the bullet wound. He spends most of these scenes [[CharacterShilling talking about how much he enjoys Bob’s company]] and looks forward to doing [[OneLastJob one more job]] with him. Meanwhile, Jesse’s wife Zerelda talks about her disapproval of Bob and his brother. The intention seems to make her sound tired of hosting criminals in her house, but the tone could come off as if she’s ''jealous'' of Bob and doesn’t want to have competition in her affection for Jesse.
** The famous bath scene. Not only is Jesse naked in front of Bob, but he asks for Bob to help him bathe by washing his back. Oh, and said scene involves Jesse [[PhallicWeapon giving Bob a gun as a surprise]], and Bob [[DoesThisRemindYouOfAnything spending a good chunk of time lovingly caressing said gun]].
** [[spoiler: Bob’s death scene. As he lies dying in the street, his DyingDeclarationOfLove is not to Cynthy, the woman he’s been pursuing for the whole movie. No, he instead weeps that he loved Jesse and hated killing him.]]
* MagnificentBastard: Frank James becomes this towards the last minutes of the film. [[spoiler: When his first plan to kill Bob goes south and he ends up in prison, he uses [[LoopholeAbuse legal maneuvering]] to get acquitted and not be transferred to another state where he is wanted. Then, having heard [[ExactEavesdropping Cynthy’s confession that she chose Kelley]], he confronts Bob in the hotel and tells him her confession, knowing that he’ll be driven into a rage and want to confront Kelley. Said rampage ends up killing Bob, allowing Frank to avenge his brother’s death without having to ever to pull the trigger]].
* NarmCharm: The sheer degree of CharacterShilling Jesse does for Bob Ford can be a little silly, but it definitely helps highlight how much of a bond Jesse and Bob have.
* SeinfeldIsUnfunny: Most modern viewers probably don’t get why a film would go through such lengths to show UsefulNotes/JesseJames as a bad guy. Little do most know that it was made at a time when Jesse James was still widely seen and romanticized as a [[NobleDemon "noble outlaw"]] that [[JustLikeRobinHood helped the poor]], despite historical evidence painting a much different picture.
* SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped: The film makes it abundantly clear how people shouldn’t [[DracoInLeatherPants glorify legitimately terrible individuals]], but that makes the story and Ford’s downfall all the more powerful.
* TearJerker: During [[{{Dramatization}} the stage show recreating his murder of Jesse James]], Bob begins to have flashbacks to that day and finds he can’t shoot the actor with the blanks. After staring out at the audience for several seconds, he walks offstage with the crowd booing him.
* UnintentionallySympathetic: Jesse James. As mentioned in BrokenAesop, Jesse comes off as more likeable than Robert Ford at many points in the film.
* TheWoobie: Poor [[LoveInterest Cynthy Waters]] is stuck in a [[LoveTriangle love triangle]] with a charming lawman and her lifelong love. Her final decision ends up [[spoiler: leading one to kill the other]], making her live with her guilt for the rest of her life.
** JerkassWoobie: Robert Ford is a brash and sometimes very possessive young man that rubs some people the wrong way. But in the end, all he wants to do is [[IJustWantToBeNormal settle down with Cynthy and become a farmer]]. This is hard to do when he’s so notorious that he can’t walk down the street without being shot at.
* WTHCastingAgency: The real [[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Robert_Ford.jpg Bob Ford]] wasn’t nearly as good looking as [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0409869/ John Ireland]]. In fact, Ford looked like a young boy even well into his twenties.
** The same goes for [[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288003/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Preston Foster]] as John Kelley. The real [[http://photos.geni.com/p13/f7/8c/8a/4b/5344483af9f7f945/220px-ed_o_kelley_large.jpg Edward O’Kelley]] looked far thinner and less bulky.
