History YMMV / Dragonlance

20th Jun '16 3:47:24 PM MarkLungo
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** Lord Soth. Even Margaret Weis has said she has to use him sparingly in order to resist the temptation to let him take over the story.

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** Lord Soth. Even Margaret Weis Creator/MargaretWeis has said she has to use him sparingly in order to resist the temptation to let him take over the story.



* EvilIsSexy: Kitiara. At least Tanis (and a bunch of other guys, including one who's quite ''dead''), seems to think so...

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* EvilIsSexy: Kitiara. At least Tanis (and a bunch of other guys, including one who's quite ''dead''), seems to think so...so, and he's hardly alone. In fact, she's so hot, she manages to inspire the lust of ''Lord Soth'', which is why he ultimate joins her cause.
4th May '16 3:22:04 PM Stranrep
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* StrawmanHasAPoint: Tanis states that it was really ''gods'' who abandoned humanity, not vice versa. The thing is, while gods were definetely right that Kingpriest of Istar and his priesthood went too far, they didn't make it clear what anger them, gave very cryptic hints which really can't make it known, and took all faithful priests with them. So, no wonder that people curse the gods!
1st Apr '16 9:33:00 PM MagBas
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* BrokenBase: Fandom tends to be divided on either side of the ''Dragons of Summer Flame'' novel. On one hand, you have the old schoolers who generally refuse to accept anything that isn't connected to the original [[TrueCompanions Heroes of the Lance]] and the original ''Chronicles'' and ''Legends'' trilogies. On the other hand, there are those who consider the Fifth Age a bold and innovative step away from the original characters and consider the first group to be hopelessly clinging to the past. For their part, the first group considers the Fifth Agers to have discarded everything that made the series popular in the first place. Both groups, however, almost universally revile [[GodModeSue Mina]] and her [[CosmicRetcon Cosmic Retcon Army]], which over the course of a single trilogy managed to systematically destroy everything even remotely connected to the Fifth Age and return it to the status quo. Old school fans were slightly mollified, though even they were struck by the [[DroppedABridgeOnHim sheer meanness of it]], reading between the lines that the entire War of Souls was an AuthorsSavingThrow writ large.

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* BrokenBase: Fandom tends to be divided on either side of the ''Dragons of Summer Flame'' novel. On one hand, you have the old schoolers who generally refuse to accept anything that isn't connected to the original [[TrueCompanions Heroes of the Lance]] and the original ''Chronicles'' and ''Legends'' trilogies. On the other hand, there are those who consider the Fifth Age a bold and innovative step away from the original characters and consider the first group to be hopelessly clinging to the past. For their part, the first group considers the Fifth Agers to have discarded everything that made the series popular in the first place. Both groups, however, almost universally revile [[GodModeSue Mina]] Mina and her [[CosmicRetcon Cosmic Retcon Army]], which over the course of a single trilogy managed to systematically destroy everything even remotely connected to the Fifth Age and return it to the status quo. Old school fans were slightly mollified, though even they were struck by the [[DroppedABridgeOnHim sheer meanness of it]], reading between the lines that the entire War of Souls was an AuthorsSavingThrow writ large.



* GodModeSue: If you don't think Mina was following this trope like a checklist, you've been reading the wrong book. A rare example of this trope [[JustifiedTrope justified]], as she had a god on her side, [[spoiler: later revealed to be Takhisis, with no other gods to keep Takhisis' powers in check. And then it turned out that Mina herself was a goddess.]]



* MarySue: Mina is arguably a deconstruction.
** Subverted by Usha. She ''is'' unusually beautiful, but most of the other reasons people think she's special are either misconceptions or outright deception, and she has very little innate magical ability.
** Invoked InUniverse with the ogres. Essentially, given free reign to make their own new species, the Gods of Evil created a MarySue race, with a 2500 year lifespan, ridiculous magical power, unearthly beauty, song language etc. [[AndManGrewProud It didn't turn out well.]]



* VillainSue: Raistlin in ''Legends'' is a good example of this trope. He and the Kingpriest are the only two mortals to ever challenge the gods and win, in an alternate timeline at least, although the outcome is not exactly what Raistlin wanted.
21st Mar '16 6:19:59 AM ACW
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* CompleteMonster:
** [[BigBad Takhisis, Queen of Darkness]], is the head of the Pantheon of [[GodIsEvil evil deities]]. Unlike her fellow evil gods, who may [[EvenEvilHasLovedOnes have people they care for]], Takhisis cares only for her lusts, greed and power. After mothering the second generation of Chromatic dragons, Takhisis brutally killed two of them solely to make a point to the others. Takhisis threatened the world multiple times, ending her armies out to commit a host of atrocities with her servants enslaving whole countries in living nightmares. Takhisis betrayed all her gods by stealing the world of Krynn at the conclusion of the Chaos Wars against Father Chaos after she abandoned her followers and forced every soul of those who died into an army of the dead.
** Maladar the Faceless is the cruel emperor of Taladas. When the series begins, Maladar has been dead for centuries and is remembered in terrifying legends. Flashbacks reveal Maladar was TheCaligula of the old empire who conducted ethnic cleansing, invented torturous deaths for thousands (he was particularly fond of impalement) and kept a slave boy he molested until the boy managed to poison him. After death, Maladar's influence lived on, as his soul was trapped into a small statue of his likeness. After he's revived he spreads his influence to modern Taladas, inciting brutal wars to create enough bloodshed to prepare his resurrection. His initial choice of vessel is an innocent boy, but he simply bodyjacks the boy's father instead and enslaves goblin races to send them to their deaths as a cover for him to awaken his army and conquer Taladas anew.
** Malystryx, one of the first and mightiest dragon overlords, is a titanic and brutal monster who carved out territory by simply incinerating anything in her way. After settling in Krynn, Malystryx hunted down and murdered other dragons, taking their skulls and inciting a dragon purge . Using the skulls as a sinister totem, she mutated the land around her into a hellish wasteland and allied with barbarians and ogres to destroy and enslave any innocents left. Malystryx killed her own mate to complete her totem and proceeded with a genocide of the PluckyComicRelief race, the kender, only prevented by the HeroicSacrifice of the warrior Riverwind. Establishing herself as a brutal tyrant, Malys would occasionally attack random targets for her own amusement, delighting in the instinctive fear she spread. Without doubt, Malys was the most evil dragon ever to set foot in Krynn.

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* CompleteMonster:
** [[BigBad Takhisis, Queen of Darkness]], is the head of the Pantheon of [[GodIsEvil evil deities]]. Unlike her fellow evil gods, who may [[EvenEvilHasLovedOnes have people they care for]], Takhisis cares only for her lusts, greed and power. After mothering the second generation of Chromatic dragons, Takhisis brutally killed two of them solely to make a point to the others. Takhisis threatened the world multiple times, ending her armies out to commit a host of atrocities with her servants enslaving whole countries in living nightmares. Takhisis betrayed all her gods by stealing the world of Krynn at the conclusion of the Chaos Wars against Father Chaos after she abandoned her followers and forced every soul of those who died into an army of the dead.
** Maladar the Faceless is the cruel emperor of Taladas. When the series begins, Maladar has been dead for centuries and is remembered in terrifying legends. Flashbacks reveal Maladar was TheCaligula of the old empire who conducted ethnic cleansing, invented torturous deaths for thousands (he was particularly fond of impalement) and kept a slave boy he molested until the boy managed to poison him. After death, Maladar's influence lived on, as his soul was trapped into a small statue of his likeness. After he's revived he spreads his influence to modern Taladas, inciting brutal wars to create enough bloodshed to prepare his resurrection. His initial choice of vessel is an innocent boy, but he simply bodyjacks the boy's father instead and enslaves goblin races to send them to their deaths as a cover for him to awaken his army and conquer Taladas anew.
** Malystryx, one of the first and mightiest dragon overlords, is a titanic and brutal monster who carved out territory by simply incinerating anything in her way. After settling in Krynn, Malystryx hunted down and murdered other dragons, taking their skulls and inciting a dragon purge . Using the skulls as a sinister totem, she mutated the land around her into a hellish wasteland and allied with barbarians and ogres to destroy and enslave any innocents left. Malystryx killed her own mate to complete her totem and proceeded with a genocide of the PluckyComicRelief race, the kender, only prevented by the HeroicSacrifice of the warrior Riverwind. Establishing herself as a brutal tyrant, Malys would occasionally attack random targets for her own amusement, delighting in the instinctive fear she spread. Without doubt, Malys was the most evil dragon ever to set foot in Krynn.
CompleteMonster: See Monster/DungeonsAndDragons.
28th Jan '16 3:21:12 PM WanderingBrowser
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* ValuesDissonance: Par Salian, head of the order of White Robes, the supposedly do-gooder mages. He curses Raistlin and gives him "Eyes of Decay", for lack of a better title. Not only does he look like a freak due to having hourglass-shaped pupils, but everything he sees is crumbling and decaying as he watches, so he can't see a building, but only an ancient ruin, and living beings are nothing but ambulatory, talking, rotting corpses. This was intended to make him more compassionate- instead, it's implied that this only furthered his disassocation from humanity and pushed him towards his dreams of divine power. It's also implied that it was his decision to add an illusion of Raistlin's brother Caramon being a wizard of even greater power than Raistlin to The Test, which resulted in Raistlin jealously murdering his brother... an act that was witnessed by the real Caramon. Seriously, What is wrong with you? Hell, even his best magely friend called him on it...

to:

* ValuesDissonance: Par Salian, head The cosmology of the order of White Robes, the supposedly do-gooder mages. He curses Raistlin and gives him "Eyes of Decay", for lack of a better title. Not only does he look like a freak due to having hourglass-shaped pupils, but everything he sees is crumbling and decaying as he watches, so he can't see a building, but only an ancient ruin, and living beings are nothing but ambulatory, talking, rotting corpses. This was intended to make him more compassionate- instead, it's implied that this only furthered his disassocation setting borrows quite heavily from humanity and pushed him the Hickman's own personal attitudes towards his dreams theology, and their beliefs palpably bleed through in much of divine power. It's also implied that it was his decision to add an illusion their writing. Most of Raistlin's brother Caramon being a wizard of even greater power than Raistlin to The Test, which resulted in Raistlin jealously murdering his brother... an act that was witnessed by the real Caramon. Seriously, What conflicts between what the books say and what the readers feel is wrong with you? Hell, even his best magely friend called him on it...due to this dissonance, most notably in regards things like the "goodness" of elves & kender or the righteousness of the gods.



** Thankfully averted with Tas. On the rare occasion he does angst, something is seriously wrong.

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** Thankfully averted with Tas. On the rare occasion he does angst, something is seriously wrong.wrong.
* WhatTheHellHero: Par Salian, head of the order of White Robes, the supposedly do-gooder mages, curses Raistlin and gives him "Eyes of Decay", for lack of a better title. Not only does he look like a freak due to having hourglass-shaped pupils, but everything he sees is crumbling and decaying as he watches, so he can't see a building, but only an ancient ruin, and living beings are nothing but ambulatory, talking, rotting corpses. This was intended to make him more compassionate- instead, it's implied that this only furthered his disassocation from humanity and pushed him towards his dreams of [[AGodAmI attaining divine power]]. It's also implied that it was his decision to add an illusion of Raistlin's brother Caramon being a wizard of even greater power than Raistlin to The Test, which resulted in Raistlin jealously murdering his brother... an act that was witnessed by the real Caramon. Seriously, What is wrong with you? Hell, even his best magely friend called him on it...
21st Jan '16 11:50:13 PM Ilya_Rysenkov
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* MoralEventHorizon: From Raistlin, [[spoiler:"Farewell, Revered Daughter. I need you no longer" Or, before that, agreeing to let the dark dwarves have his brother's head. Or before ''that'' leaving his brother to die on a ship.]] Guy seems to do this a ''lot'', at least until he [[spoiler: dies to keep Takhisis locked up]].

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* MoralEventHorizon: From Raistlin, [[spoiler:"Farewell, Revered Daughter. I need you no longer" Or, before that, agreeing to let the dark dwarves have his brother's head. Or before ''that'' leaving his brother to die on a ship.]] Guy seems to do this a ''lot'', at least until he [[spoiler: dies to keep Takhisis locked up]].up. So, at the end, subverted. And he becomes ''better'' after death]].
22nd Dec '15 6:51:55 AM Temmere
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*** When Dalamar and Kitiara meet in the ''Legends'' series, Weis and Hickman realized there was really [[CoitusEnsues only one way it could go]].
5th Aug '15 8:39:49 PM oknazevad
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** The races of Kender, Gully Dwarves and Gnomes are often this. All are intended to be PluckyComicRelief races, but many instead find them just annoying for the traits that are supposed to be funny -- Kender are a race of childlike, CuriousAsAMonkey kleptomaniacal {{Fearless Fool}}s, Gully Dwarves are dity, ugly, slovenly, and so stupid that they can't count past two, and Gnomes are {{Motor Mouth}}ed {{Bungling Inventor}}s who fail to grasp concepts such as [[RubeGoldbergDevice simplicity in technology]] and actually prize ''failure'' over ''success''. Kender are particularly hated amongst the tabletop gaming sect because their racial description gives them borderline carte blanche to be played as ChaoticStupid.

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** The races of Kender, Gully Dwarves and Gnomes are often this. All are intended to be PluckyComicRelief races, but many instead find them just annoying for the traits that are supposed to be funny -- Kender are a race of childlike, CuriousAsAMonkey kleptomaniacal {{Fearless Fool}}s, Gully Dwarves are dity, dirty, ugly, slovenly, and so stupid that they can't count past two, and Gnomes are {{Motor Mouth}}ed {{Bungling Inventor}}s who fail to grasp concepts such as [[RubeGoldbergDevice simplicity in technology]] and actually prize ''failure'' over ''success''. Kender are particularly hated amongst the tabletop gaming sect because their racial description gives them borderline carte blanche to be played as ChaoticStupid.
21st Jul '15 11:20:11 PM UltramanMattia
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Added DiffLines:

** Lord Soth during his imprisonment in [[https://youtu.be/V9xj6yQIP2Q?t=3011 Ravenloft]].
18th May '15 9:53:14 AM Ilya_Rysenkov
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** Paladine [[spoiler: Fizban.]] He managed to manipulate Heroes of Lance into becoming them, thus saving the world indirectly, and in Legends storyline he seems to be pulling the strings too, which ended in Reistlin's HeroicSacrifice DeathEqualsRedemption.

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** Paladine [[spoiler: Fizban.]] He managed to manipulate Heroes of Lance into becoming them, thus saving the world indirectly, and in Legends storyline he seems to be pulling the strings too, which ended in Reistlin's Raistlin's HeroicSacrifice DeathEqualsRedemption.
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