History WMG / SAW

*** [[spoiler:Solved by the fact that the game we see including the apparent revival of John Kramer actually takes place before any of the other films, and the evidence leading to John in the future was planted by his apprentice]].

There is no doubt by the last movie in the SAW series proper that Jigsaw and his traps have left a profound impact on people and the world at large. But what if it has inspired more people than what we see in the films? Other antagonists in films like the SAW franchise could be a direct result of John Kramer's work including the Social Scientists from Film/TheBelkoExperiment, The Circle from Film/UnfriendedDarkWeb, Noir and their leader Adam from VideoGame/WelcomeToTheGame, and Minos from Film/EscapeRoom. They all follow his method even if they don't share his reasons for putting people through torturous trials of survival.

Finally, in the Carousel Trap, what if there was no limit on the number of times William could have pushed the buttons to raise the shotgun? I can't think of any evidence to support this, but if it were the case, it would have sent the message that the limits on how many people should be allowed to live (a parallel to the idea that some people shouldn't be given insurance coverage) are all an illusion created by the higher-ups (in the case of the trap, the higher-up is Jigsaw; in the case of health insurance, it's William). I know it's a ConverseError to assume that since this moral makes sense, then the possibility that lead to it must be true, but I thought I'd bring it up anyways.

[[WMG Some of the criminals in the traps let themselves be killed because they knew they were gonna face the courts if they survived.]]

[[WMG: ''Jigsaw'' will be the final Jigsaw.]]

[[WMG: A Jigsaw puzzle will be the final Jigsaw.]]

[[WMG: Jigsaw was testing himself in Saw 3.]]

[[WMG: [[EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory Jigsaw is trying to create an elaborate form of Purgatory]]]]

[[WMG: The end of Saw 3D is the end of the beginning for the Jigsaw movement, not the beginning of the end.]]

[[WMG: Lawrence was ''always'' a Jigsaw Apprentice.]]

[[WMG: John was fully aware of Amanda's role in his son's death.]]

[[WMG: Bobby Dagen's traps were not devised by either John or Hoffman]]

Think about it. Both Jisaw and Atem like to play ''games'' with their victims in order to show them the error of their ways. If the victim loses, they get a KarmicDeath (or karmic punishment in ''Manga/YuGiOh'''s case). The only real difference is that Atem is an AntiHero while Jisaw is an actual villain...well that and Atem has supernatural powers.

[[WMG: Jigsaw is an AlternateUniverse version of Music/DoctorSteel.]]

[[WMG: Simone becomes an anti-Jigsaw.]]

[[WMG: Jigsaw is a filmmaker who made the movies as a warning to the audience.]]

[[WMG: ''Saw'' is in the same universe as ''Dead Silence, Death Sentence,'' and ''Insidious.'']]

[[WMG: The video games were designed by Amanda Young.]]

[[WMG: The ''Saw'' universe's calendars are different.]]

[[WMG: Jigsaw kept Gordon and Tapp captive for nearly a year.]]

[[WMG: ''Saw'' is in the same universe as ''The Collector'' and ''The Collection.'']]

[[WMG: Identity of Pighead from the first ''Saw'' video game.]]

[[WMG: Dr. Holstein or Dr. Early wrote the medical notes in the first video game.]]

[[WMG: The medical notes were on John Kramer.]]
The notes mention a wife pregnant with a child, and the behavior described matches John Kramer. Even though it is written that he is 34 in 1998, the doctor could have made a typographical error when he meant to write 44. According to ''Saw IV,'' John Kramer was 52 when he died in 2006, so the math adds up if it's a typo. It is also mentioned that the patient fractured his arm from what he described as an accidental fall, possibly alluding to John Kramer's suicide attempt when he drove his car off a cliff.

[[WMG: Conversely, the medical notes were on Lawrence Gordon.]]

[[WMG: The medical notes are on the person who became Pighead.]]

[[WMG: Hoffman was the one who kidnapped Gordon.]]

[[WMG: Amanda or Hoffman electrocuted Lawrence and/or Adam.]]

[[WMG: Lawrence's other possible contributions to Jigsaw's games.]]

[[WMG: The hooded Jigsaw in the first film was Hoffman disguising his voice.]]

[[WMG: John Kramer wasn't originally an engineer: he was ThePhilosopher.]]

[[WMG: Creator/TelltaleGames will make a game based off of the franchise.]]

[[WMG: William's chooosing only women in Saw VI cost him his life.]]

[[WMG: Jigsaw has inspired more people than we see in the films.]]

[[WMG: Billy the Puppet's cameos in Whannel's other films are signs of a secret Jigsaw following.]]

[[WMG: Logan, Dr. Gordon, the cult of Jigsaw, and William. None of them remain active beyond their limited games. There will never be a meeting of the minds or any sort of Jigsaw vs Jigsaw battle for the legacy, because none of them are in it for the long haul.]]

[[WMG: Some of the criminals in the traps let themselves be killed because they knew they were gonna face the courts if they survived.]]

* William just wanted to deal with his local police precinct. He doesn't have any grander notions like previous Jigsaw killers did.

Okay, so David, the protagonist from the short film, is played by Leigh Whannel. So is Adam. Obviously, they're twins, or else the Saw universe involves clones, which seems unlikely considering it's a realistic fiction series. Now, in a deleted scene from Saw, Adam says that he has a family, supporting the idea that he has a brother at all. Adam also says that he doesn't see his family much. Interesting... Think about it. Every other person who has been in the reverse bear trap helped Jigsaw. Why would David be an exception? In conclusion, Adam met his demise at the hands of his brother that he was so disconnected from that he didn't know the story of the man who tried to kill him.

* The Razor Box trap had a way out: at the top of the box was a padlock ''with the key inside it'', if the victim had spotted it, it just needed to be unlocked and then there wouldn't have been the bloody mess that ensued. (See [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Q3wptGW2E here.]])

* Billy usually appears in the form of a graffiti drawing, seen in movies like ''Film/{{Upgrade}}, Film/DeathSentence, Film/TheInvisibleMan2020,'' and ''Film/TheConjuring'' (albeit on a chalkboard). While ''Film/{{Jigsaw}}'' briefly references a twisted "fan-following" for the madman, Billy's face might be their insignia and calling card to hint at their presence. In ''Upgrade'' there's even the words "We Are Everywhere" written in the same building as Billy.

* Billy usually appears in the form of a graffiti drawing, seen in movies like Film/{{Upgrade}}, Film/DeathSentence, Film/TheInvisibleMan, and Film/TheConjuring(albeit on a chalkboard). While Film/{{Jigsaw}} briefly references a twisted "fan-following" for the madman, Billy's face might be their insignia and calling card to hint at their presence. In Upgrade there's even the words "We Are Everywhere" written in the same building as Billy.

** His body was ''cut open,'' though. And there was no mention in either IV, V, or VI of the body unexpectedly going missing, so either [[AssPull Jigsaw is now capable of incorporeally possessing people,]] [[AssPull or he had a twin brother we never heard about.]]

There is no doubt by the last movie in the SAW series proper that Jigsaw and his traps have left a profound impact on people and the world at large. But what if it has inspired more people than what we see in the films? Other antagonists in films like the SAW franchise could be a direct result of John Kramer's work including the Social Scientists from Film/TheBelkoExperiment, The Circle from Film/UnfriendedDarkWeb, Noir and their leader Adam from VideoGame/WelcomeToTheGame, and Minos from Film/EscapeRoom. They all follow his method even if they don't share his reasons for putting people through torturous trials of survival.

* Certainly it could be so, but it needn't ''have'' to be. Brent may have just been a pissed-off teenager who hated William so much he'd have pulled the [=DIE=] lever no matter ''who'' the man chose.

It's the only way [[TheScrappy Brent]]'s behavior makes sense even after watching William's percourse. The policy keeps being referred, but the only two people we saw getting rejected on screen were both men, and he [[MenAreTheExpendableGender keeps on rejecting men throughout the movie]], as none of his chosen survivors are male. This probably convinced Brent that Easton didn't change, or that his father had been rejected because he was a man and thus less deserving of survival over any woman on the planet (Shelby being chosen despite her obvious lying about her family was probably the tipping point). Thus giving him an even deeper conviction that William actually killed his father through malice.

Because Telltale seems to be the best at replicating the SadisticChoice aspect of the films.

Okay, so David, the protagonist from the short film, is played by Leigh Whannel. So is Adam. Obviously, they're twins, or else the Saw universe involves clones, which seems unlikely considering it's a realistic fiction series. Now, in a deleted scene from Saw, Adam says that he has a family, supporting the idea that he has a brother at all. Adam also says that he doesn't see his family much. Interesting... Think about it. Every other person who has been in the reverse bear trap helped Jigsaw. Why would David be an exception? In conclusion, Adam met his demise at the hands of his brother that he was so disconnected from that he didn't know the story of the man who tried to kill him. And that's why...

Okay, when we last saw him he was bleeding to death, and Jigsaw was sure to catch up with him anyway. But we didn't see him die -- and this series ''loves'' to show the victims' deaths, even if it's a couple of movies later. Besides, they keep making little references to him. Nah, Lawrence is still alive, and they'll bring him back for ''Saw VI'' to bring the series full circle. (His absence since the first film is easy to explain: he's been in hospital recovering from his massive injuries.)
* Full circle? You mean he'll become the next Jigsaw?
** No, I just mean he was in the first and he'll be in the (supposedly) last.
*** Well, the tagline for ''Saw VI'' '''is''' "The Game Comes Full Circle"...
Update: Okay, I'm busted on the ''Saw VI'' part -- Lawrence wasn't back. But they did throw in yet another mention of him, and remember that package Jill dropped off at the hospital? Sure looked like his name on the door. Stay tuned.
* This troper is afraid to say that Gordon's fate being left up in the air is probably a case of RealLifeWritesThePlot. Elwes sued the producers when he felt he wasn't given his agreed-upon percentage. That whole matter was settled out of court, but he's not likely to want to return (and they're not likely to want him back).
** [[spoiler: Actually, according to the [[http://www.toronto.ca/tfto/pdf/currentlist.pdf Toronto Film & Television Office]], Cary Elwes was in the cast for the shooting of Saw VII. It's not guaranteed that he'll be alive, yet, since he could just be back to give a flashback of his death, but this troper is hoping that's not the case!]]
[[spoiler: The very first scene of Saw 3D (formerly Saw VII) is Dr. Gordon cauterizing his stump, so yes, he survived Saw I.]]
* [[spoiler:And I'd just like to add that I ''nailed'' the package thing. I was definitely not expecting Lawrence to go bad, though...]]

[[WMG:Jill Tuck will be the final Jigsaw.]]

You're trying to tell me that she had NO idea that her husband was Jigsaw? '''Bull. Shit.''' She's going to be the one to end Hoffman's life and take up the Jigsaw role...if she hasn't already been acting in concert with her husband already.
* Confirmed, to a degree: [[spoiler: Yes, she knows, and yes, she's in on the plan, and yes, she even does attempt to kill Hoffman, in the end. Whether or not she'll take her husband's place is left a mystery, though, as it's revealed he had arranged to prevent any sort of suspicion be leveled on her.]]
** [[spoiler: We know that "a battle is going to rage over Jigsaw's legacy," [[http://www.bloody-disgusting.com/news/19954/ source]], and Wikipedia has interpreted that to mean that the battle will be between Jill and Hoffman, but there is no indication in either of the two interviews cited that that battle will be between the two of them. We do know that Saw VII will reveal that a new character named Bobby Dagen has "dark secrets of his own," so perhaps he will be a part of this battle. It's also possible that Jill had a change of heart and wants to carry on John's work, so perhaps she will forgo whatever plans he had to prevent suspicion against her and will instead carry on his work.]]
* Patrick Melton confirmed that she will not be the new Jigsaw. [[http://www.demonfm.co.uk/?q=node/596 source]]

[[WMG: Hoffman wins...everything]]
As far as I can tell, his "test" was just supposed to be him dying (I don't think Jigsaw meant for him to have an out, since there was no way to get a key). That would make him the only person in the entire franchise John actually UNDERESTIMATED. If this is the case, then his sheer will to live means he deserves to live more than anyone else.
* I'd guess that his test wasn't supposed to have a key because that would be too easy. Think of all of the experience Hoffman has with Jigsaw's traps; he knows the way they work, and a key would be too simple for a man like him. With all of his experience, a proper test would need to force him to get creative to escape, and he certainly passed in that regard.
** Look closer: Hoffman's Reverse Beartrap is NOT a replica of Amanda's. Specifically, the mouthpiece he used to break his hand is reinforced and STUDDED. This troper's impression was that Hoffman OVERTHOUGHT the trap, once his hand was shattered (and, ostensibly literally and metaphorically, his ability to hurt others), all he had to do was flip the switch on the side to turn it off. He let himself panic, missed the obvious out, and ended up with an unforeseen out and a particularly gruesome Glasgow Grin.
*** [[http://www.demonfm.co.uk/?q=node/596 An interview with Patrick Melton]] confirmed that there was supposed to be a key for the back of Hoffman's [=RBT2=], but Jill took it with her, meaning she left him for dead. Whether this is what John wanted or not is unknown, but we do know that she wanted him dead, so he didn't over think the trap.

[[WMG:William didn't have to kill a single person in his game in ''Saw VI'']]

[[WMG: If there is a Saw VIII, then Gordon, Hoffman, and Dagen will square off.]]
First off, I don't buy that [[spoiler: Hoffman dies, Jill left him in a much more desperate situation and he found an out]]. The reason I pick these three character is because each of them represents Jigsaw's failure. In the case of Hoffman and Gordon, both of them were underestimated. They found the will to live, even after a "Game Over!" Now, both of them want to be the new Jigsaw, and they will fight for that right. Bobby, however, is their opposite. Rather than pulling victory from the jaws of defeat, he lost the game because the trap failed. John was wrong, his pecks ripped, and his wife died even though he had, by any reasonable standard, won. So, where the games represent a way of rewarding strength to Hoffman and Gordon, to Dagen they are nothing but sadistic mind-fucks. For that reason, he will be determined to stop both of them at all costs, and become a counter jigsaw-killer, finding ways to fuck with the games from outside (one possibility is he finds a way to communicate the nature of a trap to a victim, so that they don't have to listen to the tape recorder, and thus can work without a timer), helping the victims, and eventually killing both Gordon and Hoffman.
* Ah, but you missed the cruel point of Dagen's final test. Jigsaw knew ''damn well'' that the pectorals weren't strong enough to support a grown man's weight for that long. He was punishing Dagen not just for lying about being in a trap, but for making him look sloppy by screwing up the details. So did his wife have a chance? I think so -- but Dagen had to think for himself and not just trust the tape (see IV and V, as well as the VI theory above). There are places he could've put the hooks that might have worked. By trusting in his lie, he doomed Joyce.
** I didn't miss it, I considered and rejected it. First off, it makes John petty and dishonest, traits he's never shown before. Secondly, the fact that Dagen got so close to winning proves that it WASN'T impossible. There's no way John could have known for certain the exact instant at which his pectorals would rip, and had they done it a second later he would have won. So, either John screwed up on his trap intending it to work, or he ALMOST screwed up on a trap he intended NOT to work. I think the former works far better.
*** Well, you've made yourself clearer now... but I've gotta say I disagree with you on every point. \\
- Jigsaw is ''very'' petty. Many of his victims were people he felt had wronged him, not people who needed to appreciate their lives more. By ''Saw VI'', he was reminding me of the guy in ''Anime/HellGirl'' who damns someone for spilling coffee on him. And the ultimate proof is Dagen himself. He's out there on TV ''spreading Jigsaw's message'', giving him exactly the PR he wants -- but Jigsaw destroys that asset because he can't abide a fake victim. That's petty.\\
- Never dishonest? Maybe not in person, but in his traps, he lies all the time. Usually it's just deception, leading the victim to think of the wrong solution (like Rigg's quest in ''IV'' or the group in ''V''), but he's perfectly willing to flat-out lie too (Amanda's trap -- "dead cellmate" my ass).\\
- And as for Jigsaw not being able to know for sure when Dagen would fall... well, one option is that the pecs really were a possible victory condition, but only if he dug the hooks deep enough that they would actually hold out. Maybe that would be enough pain to earn a pass, and Dagen fell just short. But I can also get behind the idea that Jigsaw ''did'' know exactly when Dagen would fall, because that's the particular category where ''Saw'' asks us to suspend our disbelief (no pun intended). We don't have to accept aliens or time travel; what we have to accept is that Jigsaw is ''that damn good'' at predicting everything that can happen in his traps. He doesn't always know if his victims will pass -- but if they do, it'll be on his terms.

[[WMG: Saw VIII will mark the return of Amanda.]]

If Hoffman can survive [[spoiler: being stabbed in the neck with a pen and the RBT 2.0 and most likely the bathroom]] and [[spoiler: Dr. Gordon can survive cutting off his foot and gets to be a Jigsaw accomplice despite FAILING his test]] then there's no reason to believe the writers (who actually really like Amanda) can't bring her back. After Saw 3D all logic can pretty much be thrown out the window anyway.

[[WMG: Lawrence was ''always'' a Jigsaw Apprentice]]

[[WMG: Simone becomes an anti-Jigsaw]]

[[WMG: A future film will show Lawrence's family's reaction to him being Jigsaw's apprentice.]]
It would make a great dramatic plot point and revelation to his wife and daughter.

[[WMG: The next movie will have [[spoiler:Dr. Gordon and the survivors as antagonists.]]]]
[[spoiler: If you notice towards the end of Saw VII, there are two other people in pig masks with Dr. Gordon, and it is safe to assume they are other survivors, taking over the Jigsaw title to judge people with traps, and continue the series.]]
* Nah, the series has ended. [[spoiler: Those two people are the two guys from the start of the movie. They did nothing but finally end the jigsaw killings. Gordon agreed with John, but both Amanda and Hoffman were simply psychopaths with no attempt to justify their behavior and so Gordon has no reason to continue the games]]
** Actually, they had plans to [[spoiler: have the entire survivor group be accomplices, but the idea was scrapped when the last two movies were shoved together and significant plot was forced to be cut.]]
[[WMG:Dr. Gordon is still alive.]]

He was obviously a polymath, but if he only took up a course in engineering then why did he possess such a comprehensive knowledge about the human condition, human psychology and the survival instinct, which he used to carry out his legacy long after his death? Perhaps being a civil engineer responsible for designing most of the city's infrastructure was not his original passion. Instead, John Kramer's original passion was Philosophy, especially the philosophy behind finding a reason on why a human individual should live despite the circumstances he suffered e.g. the death of his son with Jill. It is entirely plausible that Kramer was a reader of Schopenhauer (who believed that the will to live was the source of all suffering) and Creator/FriedrichNietzsche (where he learned the concept of the Will to Power as fundamental in life) but adopted their philosophies into his own, that for one to survive, they must have the Will to Power in enduring pain to survive. However, in Real Life, [[ADegreeInUseless Philiosophy is known to be an unprofitable venture]], which is why, due to the recognition by others of his skills in engineering, he was forced to enter into becoming one of the most important civil engineers in the city (kinda like Adolf Hitler being forced into architecture even if his original passion was fine arts), and eventually marrying Jill, who as a rehabilitation doctor obviously had an experience in psychology. However, his cancer combined with Amanda's idiocy in aborting his child, convincing him that he has no longer a reason to live,resulted in his suicide attempt, which failed... and reawakened his Philosophical passion in questioning: What does it mean for a human being to survive? This was where Kramer, despite being not a philosophy graduate, decided to use his acquired skills in engineering to express to his subjects what his philosophy of life is.

[[WMG: [[HomeAlone Kevin McAllistor]] will be the Final Jigsaw]]
Abandonment issues and a knowledge of elaborate, deadly traps are not a good combo of a healthy psyche.

[[WMG: Jigsaw is really Kevin [=McCallister=] from HomeAlone]]

** This has been taken to it's [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOSuWfJeNO8 logical conclusion]]

[[WMG: Jigsaw is an AlternateUniverse version of DrSteel.]]
Both started out as toymakers, but then a tragedy occurred, turning them away from their child-friendly origins into more nefarious avenues via morally-ambiguous engineering projects. However, while DrSteel may have started off a bit further [[MadScientist off-kilter]], Jigsaw had the brain tumor (see above) that wrecked his moral compass, turning him evil. Meaning Jigsaw is the ''evil'' version of DrSteel, who was a MadScientist. Jigsaw turned to deathtraps, DrSteel turned to music and world conquest.

Pretty much the only way to account for Jigsaw directly using a weapon on someone.

- Jigsaw is ''very'' petty. Many of his victims were people he felt had wronged him, not people who needed to appreciate their lives more. By ''Saw VI'', he was reminding me of the guy in ''HellGirl'' who damns someone for spilling coffee on him. And the ultimate proof is Dagen himself. He's out there on TV ''spreading Jigsaw's message'', giving him exactly the PR he wants -- but Jigsaw destroys that asset because he can't abide a fake victim. That's petty.\\

* He could have used his medical expertise to figure out where to impale Morgan and Rex from ''Saw IV.''

* Daniel Whitehurst, owner of the asylum who said that the government grants do not cover patient needs.

[[WMG: Dr. Holstein wrote the medical notes in the first video game.]]
No other doctor is named.

The notes mention a wife pregnant with a child, and the behavior described matches John Kramer. Even though it is written that he is 34 in 1998, the doctor could have made a typographical error when he meant to write 44. According to ''Saw IV,'' John Kramer was 52 when he died in 2006, so the math adds up if it's a typo.