History WMG / SAW

2nd Nov '17 2:11:35 AM ergeis
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\n* The carousal part bugged me because I realized that there wasn't any proof that the button only worked once and the fact that there are two buttons might have been a red herring (why not? The acid showers were one too). I like to reimagine that scene where he saves a third person by pushing the button in a futile attempt only to realize that it worked after all.
27th Oct '17 6:10:56 PM memetron
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Okay, so David, the protagonist from the short film, is played by Leigh Whannel. So is Adam. Obviously, they're twins, or else the Saw universe involves clones, which seems unlikely considering it's a realistic fiction series. Now, in a deleted scene from Saw, Adam says that he has a family, supporting the idea that he has a brother at all. Adam also says that he doesn't see his family much. Interesting... Think about it. Every other person who has been in the reverse bear trap helped Jigsaw. Why would David be an exception? In conclusion, Adam met his demise at the hands of his brother that he was so disconnected from that he didn't know the story of the man who tried to kill him. And that's why...

Okay, when we last saw him he was bleeding to death, and Jigsaw was sure to catch up with him anyway. But we didn't see him die -- and this series ''loves'' to show the victims' deaths, even if it's a couple of movies later. Besides, they keep making little references to him. Nah, Lawrence is still alive, and they'll bring him back for ''Saw VI'' to bring the series full circle. (His absence since the first film is easy to explain: he's been in hospital recovering from his massive injuries.)
* Full circle? You mean he'll become the next Jigsaw?
** No, I just mean he was in the first and he'll be in the (supposedly) last.
*** Well, the tagline for ''Saw VI'' '''is''' "The Game Comes Full Circle"...
Update: Okay, I'm busted on the ''Saw VI'' part -- Lawrence wasn't back. But they did throw in yet another mention of him, and remember that package Jill dropped off at the hospital? Sure looked like his name on the door. Stay tuned.
* This troper is afraid to say that Gordon's fate being left up in the air is probably a case of RealLifeWritesThePlot. Elwes sued the producers when he felt he wasn't given his agreed-upon percentage. That whole matter was settled out of court, but he's not likely to want to return (and they're not likely to want him back).
** [[spoiler: Actually, according to the [[http://www.toronto.ca/tfto/pdf/currentlist.pdf Toronto Film & Television Office]], Cary Elwes was in the cast for the shooting of Saw VII. It's not guaranteed that he'll be alive, yet, since he could just be back to give a flashback of his death, but this troper is hoping that's not the case!]]
[[spoiler: The very first scene of Saw 3D (formerly Saw VII) is Dr. Gordon cauterizing his stump, so yes, he survived Saw I.]]
* [[spoiler:And I'd just like to add that I ''nailed'' the package thing. I was definitely not expecting Lawrence to go bad, though...]]

[[WMG:Jill Tuck will be the final Jigsaw.]]

You're trying to tell me that she had NO idea that her husband was Jigsaw? '''Bull. Shit.''' She's going to be the one to end Hoffman's life and take up the Jigsaw role...if she hasn't already been acting in concert with her husband already.
* Confirmed, to a degree: [[spoiler: Yes, she knows, and yes, she's in on the plan, and yes, she even does attempt to kill Hoffman, in the end. Whether or not she'll take her husband's place is left a mystery, though, as it's revealed he had arranged to prevent any sort of suspicion be leveled on her.]]
** [[spoiler: We know that "a battle is going to rage over Jigsaw's legacy," [[http://www.bloody-disgusting.com/news/19954/ source]], and Wikipedia has interpreted that to mean that the battle will be between Jill and Hoffman, but there is no indication in either of the two interviews cited that that battle will be between the two of them. We do know that Saw VII will reveal that a new character named Bobby Dagen has "dark secrets of his own," so perhaps he will be a part of this battle. It's also possible that Jill had a change of heart and wants to carry on John's work, so perhaps she will forgo whatever plans he had to prevent suspicion against her and will instead carry on his work.]]
* Patrick Melton confirmed that she will not be the new Jigsaw. [[http://www.demonfm.co.uk/?q=node/596 source]]

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Okay, so David, the protagonist from the short film, is played by Leigh Whannel. So is Adam. Obviously, they're twins, or else the Saw universe involves clones, which seems unlikely considering it's a realistic fiction series. Now, in a deleted scene from Saw, Adam says that he has a family, supporting the idea that he has a brother at all. Adam also says that he doesn't see his family much. Interesting... Think about it. Every other person who has been in the reverse bear trap helped Jigsaw. Why would David be an exception? In conclusion, Adam met his demise at the hands of his brother that he was so disconnected from that he didn't know the story of the man who tried to kill him. And that's why...\n\nOkay, when we last saw him he was bleeding to death, and Jigsaw was sure to catch up with him anyway. But we didn't see him die -- and this series ''loves'' to show the victims' deaths, even if it's a couple of movies later. Besides, they keep making little references to him. Nah, Lawrence is still alive, and they'll bring him back for ''Saw VI'' to bring the series full circle. (His absence since the first film is easy to explain: he's been in hospital recovering from his massive injuries.)\n* Full circle? You mean he'll become the next Jigsaw?\n** No, I just mean he was in the first and he'll be in the (supposedly) last.\n*** Well, the tagline for ''Saw VI'' '''is''' "The Game Comes Full Circle"...\nUpdate: Okay, I'm busted on the ''Saw VI'' part -- Lawrence wasn't back. But they did throw in yet another mention of him, and remember that package Jill dropped off at the hospital? Sure looked like his name on the door. Stay tuned.\n* This troper is afraid to say that Gordon's fate being left up in the air is probably a case of RealLifeWritesThePlot. Elwes sued the producers when he felt he wasn't given his agreed-upon percentage. That whole matter was settled out of court, but he's not likely to want to return (and they're not likely to want him back).\n** [[spoiler: Actually, according to the [[http://www.toronto.ca/tfto/pdf/currentlist.pdf Toronto Film & Television Office]], Cary Elwes was in the cast for the shooting of Saw VII. It's not guaranteed that he'll be alive, yet, since he could just be back to give a flashback of his death, but this troper is hoping that's not the case!]]\n[[spoiler: The very first scene of Saw 3D (formerly Saw VII) is Dr. Gordon cauterizing his stump, so yes, he survived Saw I.]]\n* [[spoiler:And I'd just like to add that I ''nailed'' the package thing. I was definitely not expecting Lawrence to go bad, though...]]\n\n[[WMG:Jill Tuck will be the final Jigsaw.]]\n\nYou're trying to tell me that she had NO idea that her husband was Jigsaw? '''Bull. Shit.''' She's going to be the one to end Hoffman's life and take up the Jigsaw role...if she hasn't already been acting in concert with her husband already.\n* Confirmed, to a degree: [[spoiler: Yes, she knows, and yes, she's in on the plan, and yes, she even does attempt to kill Hoffman, in the end. Whether or not she'll take her husband's place is left a mystery, though, as it's revealed he had arranged to prevent any sort of suspicion be leveled on her.]]\n** [[spoiler: We know that "a battle is going to rage over Jigsaw's legacy," [[http://www.bloody-disgusting.com/news/19954/ source]], and Wikipedia has interpreted that to mean that the battle will be between Jill and Hoffman, but there is no indication in either of the two interviews cited that that battle will be between the two of them. We do know that Saw VII will reveal that a new character named Bobby Dagen has "dark secrets of his own," so perhaps he will be a part of this battle. It's also possible that Jill had a change of heart and wants to carry on John's work, so perhaps she will forgo whatever plans he had to prevent suspicion against her and will instead carry on his work.]]\n* Patrick Melton confirmed that she will not be the new Jigsaw. [[http://www.demonfm.co.uk/?q=node/596 source]]\n




[[WMG: Hoffman wins...everything]]
As far as I can tell, his "test" was just supposed to be him dying (I don't think Jigsaw meant for him to have an out, since there was no way to get a key). That would make him the only person in the entire franchise John actually UNDERESTIMATED. If this is the case, then his sheer will to live means he deserves to live more than anyone else.
* I'd guess that his test wasn't supposed to have a key because that would be too easy. Think of all of the experience Hoffman has with Jigsaw's traps; he knows the way they work, and a key would be too simple for a man like him. With all of his experience, a proper test would need to force him to get creative to escape, and he certainly passed in that regard.
** Look closer: Hoffman's Reverse Beartrap is NOT a replica of Amanda's. Specifically, the mouthpiece he used to break his hand is reinforced and STUDDED. This troper's impression was that Hoffman OVERTHOUGHT the trap, once his hand was shattered (and, ostensibly literally and metaphorically, his ability to hurt others), all he had to do was flip the switch on the side to turn it off. He let himself panic, missed the obvious out, and ended up with an unforeseen out and a particularly gruesome Glasgow Grin.
*** [[http://www.demonfm.co.uk/?q=node/596 An interview with Patrick Melton]] confirmed that there was supposed to be a key for the back of Hoffman's [=RBT2=], but Jill took it with her, meaning she left him for dead. Whether this is what John wanted or not is unknown, but we do know that she wanted him dead, so he didn't over think the trap.



[[WMG:William didn't have to kill a single person in his game in ''Saw VI'']]

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[[WMG:William didn't have to kill a single person in his game in ''Saw VI'']]
VI''.]]



[[WMG: If there is a Saw VIII, then Gordon, Hoffman, and Dagen will square off.]]
First off, I don't buy that [[spoiler: Hoffman dies, Jill left him in a much more desperate situation and he found an out]]. The reason I pick these three character is because each of them represents Jigsaw's failure. In the case of Hoffman and Gordon, both of them were underestimated. They found the will to live, even after a "Game Over!" Now, both of them want to be the new Jigsaw, and they will fight for that right. Bobby, however, is their opposite. Rather than pulling victory from the jaws of defeat, he lost the game because the trap failed. John was wrong, his pecks ripped, and his wife died even though he had, by any reasonable standard, won. So, where the games represent a way of rewarding strength to Hoffman and Gordon, to Dagen they are nothing but sadistic mind-fucks. For that reason, he will be determined to stop both of them at all costs, and become a counter jigsaw-killer, finding ways to fuck with the games from outside (one possibility is he finds a way to communicate the nature of a trap to a victim, so that they don't have to listen to the tape recorder, and thus can work without a timer), helping the victims, and eventually killing both Gordon and Hoffman.
* Ah, but you missed the cruel point of Dagen's final test. Jigsaw knew ''damn well'' that the pectorals weren't strong enough to support a grown man's weight for that long. He was punishing Dagen not just for lying about being in a trap, but for making him look sloppy by screwing up the details. So did his wife have a chance? I think so -- but Dagen had to think for himself and not just trust the tape (see IV and V, as well as the VI theory above). There are places he could've put the hooks that might have worked. By trusting in his lie, he doomed Joyce.
** I didn't miss it, I considered and rejected it. First off, it makes John petty and dishonest, traits he's never shown before. Secondly, the fact that Dagen got so close to winning proves that it WASN'T impossible. There's no way John could have known for certain the exact instant at which his pectorals would rip, and had they done it a second later he would have won. So, either John screwed up on his trap intending it to work, or he ALMOST screwed up on a trap he intended NOT to work. I think the former works far better.
*** Well, you've made yourself clearer now... but I've gotta say I disagree with you on every point. \\
- Jigsaw is ''very'' petty. Many of his victims were people he felt had wronged him, not people who needed to appreciate their lives more. By ''Saw VI'', he was reminding me of the guy in ''Anime/HellGirl'' who damns someone for spilling coffee on him. And the ultimate proof is Dagen himself. He's out there on TV ''spreading Jigsaw's message'', giving him exactly the PR he wants -- but Jigsaw destroys that asset because he can't abide a fake victim. That's petty.\\
- Never dishonest? Maybe not in person, but in his traps, he lies all the time. Usually it's just deception, leading the victim to think of the wrong solution (like Rigg's quest in ''IV'' or the group in ''V''), but he's perfectly willing to flat-out lie too (Amanda's trap -- "dead cellmate" my ass).\\
- And as for Jigsaw not being able to know for sure when Dagen would fall... well, one option is that the pecs really were a possible victory condition, but only if he dug the hooks deep enough that they would actually hold out. Maybe that would be enough pain to earn a pass, and Dagen fell just short. But I can also get behind the idea that Jigsaw ''did'' know exactly when Dagen would fall, because that's the particular category where ''Saw'' asks us to suspend our disbelief (no pun intended). We don't have to accept aliens or time travel; what we have to accept is that Jigsaw is ''that damn good'' at predicting everything that can happen in his traps. He doesn't always know if his victims will pass -- but if they do, it'll be on his terms.



[[WMG: Saw VIII will mark the return of Amanda.]]

If Hoffman can survive [[spoiler: being stabbed in the neck with a pen and the RBT 2.0 and most likely the bathroom]] and [[spoiler: Dr. Gordon can survive cutting off his foot and gets to be a Jigsaw accomplice despite FAILING his test]] then there's no reason to believe the writers (who actually really like Amanda) can't bring her back. After Saw 3D all logic can pretty much be thrown out the window anyway.



[[WMG: Lawrence was ''always'' a Jigsaw Apprentice]]

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[[WMG: Lawrence was ''always'' a Jigsaw Apprentice]]Apprentice.]]



[[WMG: Simone becomes an anti-Jigsaw]]

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[[WMG: Simone becomes an anti-Jigsaw]]anti-Jigsaw.]]



[[WMG: A future film will show Lawrence's family's reaction to him being Jigsaw's apprentice.]]
It would make a great dramatic plot point and revelation to his wife and daughter.
27th Oct '17 6:07:42 PM memetron
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[[WMG: The next movie will have [[spoiler:Dr. Gordon and the survivors as antagonists.]]]]
[[spoiler: If you notice towards the end of Saw VII, there are two other people in pig masks with Dr. Gordon, and it is safe to assume they are other survivors, taking over the Jigsaw title to judge people with traps, and continue the series.]]
* Nah, the series has ended. [[spoiler: Those two people are the two guys from the start of the movie. They did nothing but finally end the jigsaw killings. Gordon agreed with John, but both Amanda and Hoffman were simply psychopaths with no attempt to justify their behavior and so Gordon has no reason to continue the games]]
** Actually, they had plans to [[spoiler: have the entire survivor group be accomplices, but the idea was scrapped when the last two movies were shoved together and significant plot was forced to be cut.]]
[[WMG:Dr. Gordon is still alive.]]
14th Jul '17 3:43:48 PM Blastgamer
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He was obviously a polymath, but if he only took up a course in engineering then why did he possess such a comprehensive knowledge about the human condition, human psychology and the survival instinct, which he used to carry out his legacy long after his death? Perhaps being a civil engineer responsible for designing most of the city's infrastructure was not his original passion. Instead, John Kramer's original passion was Philosophy, especially the philosophy behind finding a reason on why a human individual should live despite the circumstances he suffered e.g. the death of his son with Jill. It is entirely plausible that Kramer was a reader of Schopenhauer (who believed that the will to live was the source of all suffering) and Creator/FriedrichNietzsche (where he learned the concept of the Will to Power as fundamental in life) but adopted their philosophies into his own, that for one to survive, they must have the Will to Power in enduring pain to survive. However, in Real Life, [[ADegreeInUseless Philiosophy is known to be an unprofitable venture]], which is why, due to the recognition by others of his skills in engineering, he was forced to enter into becoming one of the most important civil engineers in the city (kinda like Adolf Hitler being forced into architecture even if his original passion was fine arts), and eventually marrying Jill, who as a rehabilitation doctor obviously had an experience in psychology. However, his cancer combined with Amanda's idiocy in aborting his child, convincing him that he has no longer a reason to live,resulted in his suicide attempt, which failed... and reawakened his Philosophical passion in questioning: What does it mean for a human being to survive? This was where Kramer, despite being not a philosophy graduate, decided to use his acquired skills in engineering to express to his subjects what his philosophy of life is.

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He was obviously a polymath, but if he only took up a course in engineering then why did he possess such a comprehensive knowledge about the human condition, human psychology and the survival instinct, which he used to carry out his legacy long after his death? Perhaps being a civil engineer responsible for designing most of the city's infrastructure was not his original passion. Instead, John Kramer's original passion was Philosophy, especially the philosophy behind finding a reason on why a human individual should live despite the circumstances he suffered e.g. the death of his son with Jill. It is entirely plausible that Kramer was a reader of Schopenhauer (who believed that the will to live was the source of all suffering) and Creator/FriedrichNietzsche (where he learned the concept of the Will to Power as fundamental in life) but adopted their philosophies into his own, that for one to survive, they must have the Will to Power in enduring pain to survive. However, in Real Life, [[ADegreeInUseless Philiosophy is known to be an unprofitable venture]], which is why, due to the recognition by others of his skills in engineering, he was forced to enter into becoming one of the most important civil engineers in the city (kinda like Adolf Hitler being forced into architecture even if his original passion was fine arts), and eventually marrying Jill, who as a rehabilitation doctor obviously had an experience in psychology. However, his cancer combined with Amanda's idiocy in aborting his child, convincing him that he has no longer a reason to live,resulted in his suicide attempt, which failed... and reawakened his Philosophical passion in questioning: What does it mean for a human being to survive? This was where Kramer, despite being not a philosophy graduate, decided to use his acquired skills in engineering to express to his subjects what his philosophy of life is.is.

[[WMG: Creator/TelltaleGames will make a game based off of the franchise.]]
Because Telltale seems to be the best at replicating the SadisticChoice aspect of the films.
3rd Nov '16 8:47:21 PM nombretomado
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[[WMG: [[HomeAlone Kevin McAllistor]] will be the Final Jigsaw]]
Abandonment issues and a knowledge of elaborate, deadly traps are not a good combo of a healthy psyche.



[[WMG: Jigsaw is really Kevin [=McCallister=] from HomeAlone]]

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[[WMG: Jigsaw is really Kevin [=McCallister=] from HomeAlone]]Film/HomeAlone]]



** This has been taken to it's [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOSuWfJeNO8 logical conclusion]]

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** This has been taken to it's its [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOSuWfJeNO8 logical conclusion]]
14th Aug '16 2:00:29 PM nombretomado
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[[WMG: Jigsaw is an AlternateUniverse version of DrSteel.]]
Both started out as toymakers, but then a tragedy occurred, turning them away from their child-friendly origins into more nefarious avenues via morally-ambiguous engineering projects. However, while DrSteel may have started off a bit further [[MadScientist off-kilter]], Jigsaw had the brain tumor (see above) that wrecked his moral compass, turning him evil. Meaning Jigsaw is the ''evil'' version of DrSteel, who was a MadScientist. Jigsaw turned to deathtraps, DrSteel turned to music and world conquest.

to:

[[WMG: Jigsaw is an AlternateUniverse version of DrSteel.Music/DoctorSteel.]]
Both started out as toymakers, but then a tragedy occurred, turning them away from their child-friendly origins into more nefarious avenues via morally-ambiguous engineering projects. However, while DrSteel Dr. Steel may have started off a bit further [[MadScientist off-kilter]], Jigsaw had the brain tumor (see above) that wrecked his moral compass, turning him evil. Meaning Jigsaw is the ''evil'' version of DrSteel, Dr. Steel, who was a MadScientist. Jigsaw turned to deathtraps, DrSteel Dr. Steel turned to music and world conquest.
9th Jun '16 3:37:28 AM memememememe
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Pretty much the only way to account for Jigsaw directly using a weapon on someone.

to:

Pretty much the only way to account for Jigsaw directly using a weapon on someone.someone.

[[WMG: John Kramer wasn't originally an engineer: he was ThePhilosopher.]]
He was obviously a polymath, but if he only took up a course in engineering then why did he possess such a comprehensive knowledge about the human condition, human psychology and the survival instinct, which he used to carry out his legacy long after his death? Perhaps being a civil engineer responsible for designing most of the city's infrastructure was not his original passion. Instead, John Kramer's original passion was Philosophy, especially the philosophy behind finding a reason on why a human individual should live despite the circumstances he suffered e.g. the death of his son with Jill. It is entirely plausible that Kramer was a reader of Schopenhauer (who believed that the will to live was the source of all suffering) and Creator/FriedrichNietzsche (where he learned the concept of the Will to Power as fundamental in life) but adopted their philosophies into his own, that for one to survive, they must have the Will to Power in enduring pain to survive. However, in Real Life, [[ADegreeInUseless Philiosophy is known to be an unprofitable venture]], which is why, due to the recognition by others of his skills in engineering, he was forced to enter into becoming one of the most important civil engineers in the city (kinda like Adolf Hitler being forced into architecture even if his original passion was fine arts), and eventually marrying Jill, who as a rehabilitation doctor obviously had an experience in psychology. However, his cancer combined with Amanda's idiocy in aborting his child, convincing him that he has no longer a reason to live,resulted in his suicide attempt, which failed... and reawakened his Philosophical passion in questioning: What does it mean for a human being to survive? This was where Kramer, despite being not a philosophy graduate, decided to use his acquired skills in engineering to express to his subjects what his philosophy of life is.
10th Jun '15 6:46:35 PM ShinyTsukkomi
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- Jigsaw is ''very'' petty. Many of his victims were people he felt had wronged him, not people who needed to appreciate their lives more. By ''Saw VI'', he was reminding me of the guy in ''HellGirl'' who damns someone for spilling coffee on him. And the ultimate proof is Dagen himself. He's out there on TV ''spreading Jigsaw's message'', giving him exactly the PR he wants -- but Jigsaw destroys that asset because he can't abide a fake victim. That's petty.\\

to:

- Jigsaw is ''very'' petty. Many of his victims were people he felt had wronged him, not people who needed to appreciate their lives more. By ''Saw VI'', he was reminding me of the guy in ''HellGirl'' ''Anime/HellGirl'' who damns someone for spilling coffee on him. And the ultimate proof is Dagen himself. He's out there on TV ''spreading Jigsaw's message'', giving him exactly the PR he wants -- but Jigsaw destroys that asset because he can't abide a fake victim. That's petty.\\
21st May '15 1:46:44 PM backpack
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* He could have used his medical expertise to figure out where to impale Morgan and Rex from ''Saw IV.''

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* He could have used his medical expertise to figure out where to impale Morgan and Rex from ''Saw IV.''''

[[WMG: The hooded Jigsaw in the first film was Hoffman disguising his voice.]]
Pretty much the only way to account for Jigsaw directly using a weapon on someone.
23rd Jan '15 10:28:27 PM SandwichesHinderProgress
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* Daniel Whitehurst, owner of the asylum who said that the government grants do not cover patient needs.

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* Daniel Whitehurst, Whitehurst IV, M.D., owner of the asylum who said that the government grants do not cover patient needs.




[[WMG: Dr. Holstein wrote the medical notes in the first video game.]]
No other doctor is named.

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\n* Dr. Timothy Early, a doctor who might have supported LSD research.

[[WMG: Dr. Holstein or Dr. Early wrote the medical notes in the first video game.]]
No other doctor is doctors are named.



The notes mention a wife pregnant with a child, and the behavior described matches John Kramer. Even though it is written that he is 34 in 1998, the doctor could have made a typographical error when he meant to write 44. According to ''Saw IV,'' John Kramer was 52 when he died in 2006, so the math adds up if it's a typo.

to:

The notes mention a wife pregnant with a child, and the behavior described matches John Kramer. Even though it is written that he is 34 in 1998, the doctor could have made a typographical error when he meant to write 44. According to ''Saw IV,'' John Kramer was 52 when he died in 2006, so the math adds up if it's a typo.
typo. It is also mentioned that the patient fractured his arm from what he described as an accidental fall, possibly alluding to John Kramer's suicide attempt when he drove his car off a cliff.

[[WMG: Conversely, the medical notes were on Lawrence Gordon.]]
Lawrence also had a wife, and his daughter was 5-6 years old during the first film according to the script. If it takes place in 2004, then Diana being born in 1998 fits perfectly. The notes say that the patient has medical knowledge and comments that "Doctors make the worst patients."

[[WMG: The medical notes are on the person who became Pighead.]]
The notes mention that the patient sees people as objects or pawns. It is also mentioned that he has violent tendencies. This does not seem to fit with either John or Lawrence's personalities.
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