History WMG / RedDwarf

21st Aug '16 10:32:00 AM TheLyniezian
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** The explanatory text might have been made up by Holly in his capacity as narrator, to screw with the audience. Not entirely out of character for him.












* One entry earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Assuming Annett's Kochanski was the original one, who then got replaced with Grogan's by the Inquisitor, Lister as he is then was still born from Annett's genes. When the Inquisitor finally got round to judging David Lister, he 'corrected it' by replacing him with that of a Lister born of Grogan's genes... thus the different appearance. Two questions arise though. Why would changing Annett to Grogan in the first place not affect Lister's appearance right away? And secondly, what actually is the extent of the Inquisitor's powers in changing every last person in time and space, when you take into account that by changing one person you effectively screw up the existence of literally all of their descendants. Does he judge one person independently and override the cosmetic appearance of their descendants? But that would be absurd because then genetics would be completely moot. Or does he see into his own future, and know that he's already going to deem certain of those descendants unworthy, and thus doesn't bother to modify their appearance in line with their ancestor as they'll be changed eventually anyway? The extent of his skillbase is never really expanded on. Either way, Red Dwarf timefucks aside, I like to assume that the alternate Lister is the son of Grogan's Kochanski, and the one we know is that of Annett's. It just makes sense, to me.

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* One entry earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Assuming Annett's Kochanski was the original one, who then got replaced with Grogan's by the Inquisitor, Lister as he is then was still born from Annett's genes. When the Inquisitor finally got round to judging David Lister, he 'corrected it' by replacing him with that of a Lister born of Grogan's genes... thus the different appearance. Two questions arise though. Why would changing Annett to Grogan in the first place not affect Lister's appearance right away? And secondly, what actually is the extent of the Inquisitor's powers in changing every last person in time and space, when you take into account that by changing one person you effectively screw up the existence of literally all of their descendants. Does he judge one person independently and override the cosmetic appearance of their descendants? But that would be absurd because then genetics would be completely moot. Or does he see into his own future, and know that he's already going to deem certain of those descendants unworthy, and thus doesn't bother to modify their appearance in line with their ancestor as they'll be changed eventually anyway? The extent of his skillbase is never really expanded on. Either way, Red Dwarf timefucks aside, I like to assume that the alternate Lister is the son of Grogan's Kochanski, and the one we know is that of Annett's. It just makes sense, to me.me.

[[WMG: The two Kochanskis are genetically different in the alternate timelines.]]
Perhaps a slightly different sperm fertilised the egg that would become her, meaning the combined DNA would be slightly different.
1st Aug '16 4:06:07 PM Jcopping89
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* One entry earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Assuming Annett's Kochanski was the original one, who then got replaced with Grogan's by the Inquisitor, Lister as he is then was still born from Annett's genes. When the Inquisitor finally got round to judging David Lister, he 'corrected it' by replacing him with that of a Lister born of Grogan's genes... thus the different appearance. Two questions arise though. Why would changing Annett to Grogan in the first place not affect Lister's appearance right away? And secondly, what actually is the extent of the Inquisitor's powers in changing every last person in time and space, when you take into account that by changing one person you effectively screw up the existence of literally all of their descendants. Does he judge one person independently and override the cosmetic appearance of their descendants? But that would be absurd because then genetics would be completely moot. Or does he see into his own future, and know that he's already going to deem certain of those descendants unworthy, and thus doesn't bother to modify their appearance in line with their ancestor as they'll be change eventually anyway? The extent of his skillbase is never really expanded on.

to:

* One entry earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Assuming Annett's Kochanski was the original one, who then got replaced with Grogan's by the Inquisitor, Lister as he is then was still born from Annett's genes. When the Inquisitor finally got round to judging David Lister, he 'corrected it' by replacing him with that of a Lister born of Grogan's genes... thus the different appearance. Two questions arise though. Why would changing Annett to Grogan in the first place not affect Lister's appearance right away? And secondly, what actually is the extent of the Inquisitor's powers in changing every last person in time and space, when you take into account that by changing one person you effectively screw up the existence of literally all of their descendants. Does he judge one person independently and override the cosmetic appearance of their descendants? But that would be absurd because then genetics would be completely moot. Or does he see into his own future, and know that he's already going to deem certain of those descendants unworthy, and thus doesn't bother to modify their appearance in line with their ancestor as they'll be change changed eventually anyway? The extent of his skillbase is never really expanded on.on. Either way, Red Dwarf timefucks aside, I like to assume that the alternate Lister is the son of Grogan's Kochanski, and the one we know is that of Annett's. It just makes sense, to me.
1st Aug '16 4:04:09 PM Jcopping89
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* One entry earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Someone could probably say this better than me, but there must be an explanation in there somewhere.

to:

* One entry earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Someone could probably say this better than me, but there must Assuming Annett's Kochanski was the original one, who then got replaced with Grogan's by the Inquisitor, Lister as he is then was still born from Annett's genes. When the Inquisitor finally got round to judging David Lister, he 'corrected it' by replacing him with that of a Lister born of Grogan's genes... thus the different appearance. Two questions arise though. Why would changing Annett to Grogan in the first place not affect Lister's appearance right away? And secondly, what actually is the extent of the Inquisitor's powers in changing every last person in time and space, when you take into account that by changing one person you effectively screw up the existence of literally all of their descendants. Does he judge one person independently and override the cosmetic appearance of their descendants? But that would be an explanation absurd because then genetics would be completely moot. Or does he see into his own future, and know that he's already going to deem certain of those descendants unworthy, and thus doesn't bother to modify their appearance in there somewhere.line with their ancestor as they'll be change eventually anyway? The extent of his skillbase is never really expanded on.
1st Aug '16 3:56:34 PM Jcopping89
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* One one example earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Someone could probably say this better than me, but there must be an explanation in there somewhere.

to:

* One one example entry earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Someone could probably say this better than me, but there must be an explanation in there somewhere.
1st Aug '16 3:56:06 PM Jcopping89
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* It isn't a perfect explanation, but one example earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Someone could probably say this better than me, but there must be an explanation in there somewhere.

to:

* It isn't a perfect explanation, but One one example earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Someone could probably say this better than me, but there must be an explanation in there somewhere.
1st Aug '16 3:54:56 PM Jcopping89
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This way, when the Inquisitor encountered Lister he could have replaced that first Lister (the one who had parents) with an alternative version and this alternative version would have then done the same thing (creating the loop again) therefore resolving the apparent contradiction.

to:

This way, when the Inquisitor encountered Lister he could have replaced that first Lister (the one who had parents) with an alternative version and this alternative version would have then done the same thing (creating the loop again) therefore resolving the apparent contradiction.contradiction.
* It isn't a perfect explanation, but one example earlier in the page talked about how the change between Grogan and Annett's Kochanski existed in universe because of the Inquisitor's meddling. So the cosmetic 'differences' between the Lister in one timeline and that of another could somehow be explained as one having one Kochanski's genes, and the other with the other. Someone could probably say this better than me, but there must be an explanation in there somewhere.
15th Jul '16 10:49:01 PM ApeAccount
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* The gender reversed alter ego thing could be understandable (we've evolved with a natural aversion to having sex with our brothers and sisters because that would cause serious genetic complications for offspring; we haven't actually had any reasons to evolve a natural attitude one way or another to meeting a gender reversed version of ourselves from a parallel universe). Of course, Lister explicitly points out in Ouroboros that Kochanski is technically his mother and that doesn't seem to bother him that much. Also, in Rimmerworld when faced with the dilemma that a female clone would technically be his sister Rimmer's attitude was that he simply wouldn't tell her. So you may be onto something.
15th Jul '16 10:34:43 PM ApeAccount
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* 9) When Lister encounters Kochanski next she’s from a parallel universe. In that universe, Lister never had access to the time drive and hence Kochanski was never changed. Therefore, this version of Kochanski was always the Annett version.

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* 9) When Lister encounters Kochanski next she’s from a parallel universe. In that universe, Lister never had access to the time drive and hence Kochanski was never changed. Therefore, this version of Kochanski was always the Annett version.version.
[[WMG: Lister wasn’t always his own father]]

The Inquisitor judges Lister (or rather he judges himself) and he’s found unworthy. He’s then replaced by an alternate version of himself who never got a chance at life. This raises some fridge logic if you consider the fact that Lister is his own father. If Lister had never been born then neither would Lister’s father. Therefore, if Lister had never been born then logically neither would any alternate siblings. More fundamentally though, If Lister the son is the same as Lister the father then that must mean he has only his father’s DNA and by extension only his grandfather’s DNA and only his great grandfather’s DNA and by extension all his ancestral DNA is identical to his own. So Lister’s effectively a perfect clone of himself and there shouldn’t be any alternate version of him in the mix.

So where would the DNA for an alternate version of Lister come from? Yes, in theory Lister’s DNA could have been modified to produce someone different, but that’s not really the Inquisitor’s way of working.

The alternative explanation is that, before the loop began, Lister did actually have parents. Lister had a mother and father. They had a child. For some reason, either Lister himself, his parents or someone else entirely decided to leave a baby Lister in a box in a pub (given Lister seems to view it as a way to ensure humanity can never die out, it’s possible he did it himself and left the ourobourous message so he would know what to do when he reached the proper age). The very first version of Lister left in that pub may have been the first Lister or he may have been the first Lister’s son. Either way, once a Lister had been left there the loop had begun and the Listers were set in motion to grow up, travel back in time and leave themselves there (therefore completing the loop).

This way, when the Inquisitor encountered Lister he could have replaced that first Lister (the one who had parents) with an alternative version and this alternative version would have then done the same thing (creating the loop again) therefore resolving the apparent contradiction.
15th Jul '16 10:09:29 PM ApeAccount
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Which is why the guy in the comics shop refers to it as the best series by miles. It was too good for us to see.

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Which is why the guy in the comics shop refers to it as the best series by miles. It was too good for us to see.see.
[[WMG: The Kochanski of the early seasons was actually the result of Lister altering history]]

The version of Kochanski in the later series is completely different in appearance and personality to the early series. One possible explanation for this is as follows:
*1) Originally, Kochanski was the Chloe Annett version.
*2) In “Out of Time” the crew discovers the time drive.
*3) The crew eventually finds an ability to travel through space as well as time.
*4) Lister, being in love with Kochanski, decides to travel back in time so he can be with her. He can only be with her a short while before the radiation leak kills off the crew but he can keep travelling back and being with her again (he just has to ensure he doesn’t encounter himself, or to somehow eliminate his past self from the equation).
*5) He goes back and he’s with her again but he starts to get sick of her. He’s idealised her in his head but he really wants to be with a woman more like him. Due to the time drive’s corrupting influence, he decides he has a right to “fix her”.
*6) Lister travels back in time and arranges for Kochanski’s father to have a nice working class job in Scotland hoping to change her upbringing. Instead, her mother leaves him, hence explaining why when he does have a daughter and name her Christine (and she does pursue the dream he always wanted for his daughter of being a navigation officer on a mining ship) she doesn’t look the same.
*7) Lister ends up having a romance with this Kochanski (both the local Lister to her time period, who ends up being the Lister throughout the show, and the Lister from the future). History again plays out up until “Out of Time” (except this time with Clare Grogan Kochanski) and eventually the two versions of Lister encounter each other (when the Lister using the time drive, now a brain in a jar, has to travel to the future).
*8) The time drive is destroyed, thereby erasing the changes it caused, including the changes to Kochanski and causing Lister to forget that he’d seen the different Kochanski.
*9) When Lister encounters Kochanski next she’s from a parallel universe. In that universe, Lister never had access to the time drive and hence Kochanski was never changed. Therefore, this version of Kochanski was always the Annett version.
15th Jul '16 9:40:12 PM ApeAccount
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* This makes so much sense now that I've heard the theory it's pretty hard NOT to believe it. Having been in love with Kochanski for so long, it's pretty hard to think that if Lister had access to the ability to travel anywhere in time and space that he wouldn't eventually go back to see her. Of course, being Lister he's not just going to accept that he could only be with her until the radiation leak kills off the crew. All we know about what happened to him was that there was some kind of accident. Perhaps Lister's attempts to prevent the radiation leak actually exposed him to radiation and destroyed his body. With Lister no longer able to act, the group's morality was largely in the hands of the Cat and Rimmer who may have quickly disabled Kryten's behaviour protocols (and anti-toupee safeguards) thereby leading them on the path they'd eventually take.
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