History ValuesDissonance / Literature

6th May '18 10:04:53 PM FF32
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* In-universe example: there are a few places in the 1632 series where the values of the "downtimers" and those of the "uptimers" clash. Liberal schoolteacher Melissa Mailey is fairly shocked to see refugee-matriarch Gretchen Richter hitting anyone who doesn't obey her promptly. Gretchen finds her reaction confusing, until she sees Melissa ordering around her uptimer students, and concludes that Melissa has probably never ''had'' to smack anybody to make them listen to her.

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* In-universe example: there are a few places in the 1632 ''Literature/SixteenThirtyTwo'' series where the values of the "downtimers" and those of the "uptimers" clash. Liberal schoolteacher Melissa Mailey is fairly shocked to see refugee-matriarch Gretchen Richter hitting anyone who doesn't obey her promptly. Gretchen finds her reaction confusing, until she sees Melissa ordering around her uptimer students, and concludes that Melissa has probably never ''had'' to smack anybody to make them listen to her.
4th May '18 12:51:49 PM nightkiller
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*** Bond "cures" a lesbian by being sexy enough. Though Pussy Galore is viewed as a lesbian throughout the book, she admits at the end that it was a label she never really applied to herself. Where she was from apparently being a tomboy who could out run their brother automatically meant they must be a lesbian. The actual passage reads: "I come from the South. You know the definition of a virgin down there? Well, it's a girl who can run faster than her brother. In my case I couldn't run as fast as my uncle. I was twelve."

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*** Bond "cures" a lesbian by being sexy enough. Though Pussy Galore is viewed as a lesbian throughout the book, she admits at the end that it was a label she never really applied to herself. Where she was from apparently being a tomboy who could out run their brother automatically meant they must be a lesbian. The
****The
actual passage reads: "I come from the South. You know the definition of a virgin down there? Well, it's a girl who can run faster than her brother. In my case I couldn't run as fast as my uncle. I was twelve."
4th May '18 10:22:46 AM MikeW
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Added DiffLines:

* Arthur Hailey's novel ''Hotel'' was written in 1965 and focuses on a fictional hotel in New Orleans. A key plotline involves young executive Peter trying to undo the non-segregated rule the hotel owner stubbornly clings to. This comes up majorly when a well-educated black dentist is denied entry and one of his colleagues causes a huge fuss over it. A big talk later in the book has some saying "state's rights" may still be viable but Peter pushing for this to finally end.
** In an introduction to a reprinted version of the book in the 1990s, Hailey notes changes since the publication, including assuring younger readers that the constant use of "Negro" is not meant as an insult but simply how black people were called at the time. He also admits regret at how nearly every character in the book is shown smoking a lot as he was unaware at the time of the dangers that would cause.
30th Apr '18 11:38:23 AM TheMountainKing
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** Though far more minor, the description of penguins as "Grotesque" in ''At the Mountains of Madness'' is quite odd to modern readers, [[spoiler: especially since these are normal, non-mutant penguins]]

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** Though far more minor, the description of penguins as "Grotesque" "grotesque" in ''At the Mountains of Madness'' is quite odd to modern readers, [[spoiler: especially since these are normal, non-mutant penguins]]
23rd Apr '18 12:51:09 AM LaughingGiraffe
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Added DiffLines:

* "Consider Her Ways" is a novella by Creator/JohnWyndham where the narrator, a doctor from the mid 20th century, finds herself in a post-{{Gendercide}} society and engages in a fierce argument with a historian about whether things are better now. The historian maintains that while the plague that wiped out all men was unfortunate, it freed women from patriarchy; the narrator claims that life in such a society would be barely worth living. Wyndham tries to present the dilemma seriously, but to the modern reader, he almost commits StrawmanHasAPoint in reverse. The historian points out that throughout history, women were subject to horrific oppression such as sexual violence and enslavement, and even in the modern era, women were encouraged, by means of consumerist manipulation, to StayInTheKitchen. The narrator, meanwhile, objects that without two sexes, romantic love is impossible ([[HideYourLesbians what's lesbianism?]]) and that romantic love is the source of all inspiration for poetry and art (what's {{Asexuality}}?). This is especially egregious because she seems much more concerned about the absence of "lovers under the trees on a summer's night" than the emergence of an oligarchical caste-based dictatorship where education and reproduction are strictly controlled and dissidents are at least arrested, possibly executed.
** In a more minor example, it's dropped in, very casually, that the narrator quit her job after marriage and went back after being widowed only to keep herself busy - in the 21st century, many people would perceive it as wasteful to go through a doctor's training only to leave the profession at age twenty-four, married or not.
22nd Apr '18 5:22:18 PM TheMountainKing
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* Given that the man himself was on the eccentric side even in his own age, it should be little surprise that there's a fair amount of this in the works of ''Creator/HPLovecraft''.

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* Given that the man himself was on the eccentric side even in his own age, it should be little surprise that there's a fair amount of this in the works of ''Creator/HPLovecraft''.Creator/HPLovecraft.
22nd Apr '18 5:19:05 PM TheMountainKing
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** Snape's attitude to [[spoiler:Lily Evans resembles the now discredited and criticized NiceGuy attitude by suitors who turn on pretty girls because they aren't content to "just being friends". Snape within the books never respects Lily's consent, never acknowledges that she fell in love with another man, still calls her "Lily Evans" when she willingly married James and adopted his name, and tears a family photo that Lily herself was proud to share with Sirius. An incident which happened after the present of Book 6, which proves that even when he had supposedly attained his RedemptionQuest, he still believed that StalkingIsLove, was keen on maintaining a StalkerShrine and went to his grave refusing to deal with his failure in a mature and responsible manner, while the books, via Harry, bends over backwards to tell us that this guy is "the bravest man I ever knew". In fact, Voldemort's claim during his final duel with Harry that Snape just desired her, which Harry "corrects" saying it was love, comes across as more accurate to newer readers]].

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** Snape's attitude to [[spoiler:Lily Evans resembles the now discredited and criticized NiceGuy DoggedNiceGuy attitude by suitors who turn on pretty girls because they aren't content to "just being friends". Snape within the books never respects Lily's consent, never acknowledges that she fell in love with another man, still calls her "Lily Evans" when she willingly married James and adopted his name, and tears a family photo that Lily herself was proud to share with Sirius. An incident which happened after the present of Book 6, which proves that even when he had supposedly attained his RedemptionQuest, he still believed that StalkingIsLove, was keen on maintaining a StalkerShrine and went to his grave refusing to deal with his failure in a mature and responsible manner, while the books, via Harry, bends over backwards to tell us that this guy is "the bravest man I ever knew". In fact, Voldemort's claim during his final duel with Harry that Snape just desired her, which Harry "corrects" saying it was love, comes across as more accurate to newer readers]].
21st Apr '18 8:08:20 PM Malady
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* ''TheThornBirds'': When the book was first published it was considered a somewhat scandalous romance because it dealt with Ralph, a Catholic priest, falling in love with a girl named Meggie and having a sexual relationship with her (even fathering a child). Those who read the book today are more likely to be scandalized by the fact that Ralph [[WifeHusbandry practically raised Meggie]], having known her from early childhood.

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* ''TheThornBirds'': ''Literature/TheThornBirds'': When the book was first published it was considered a somewhat scandalous romance because it dealt with Ralph, a Catholic priest, falling in love with a girl named Meggie and having a sexual relationship with her (even fathering a child). Those who read the book today are more likely to be scandalized by the fact that Ralph [[WifeHusbandry practically raised Meggie]], having known her from early childhood.
21st Apr '18 7:53:21 PM Malady
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* There's several complaints about Creator/MercedesLackey's Elizabethan novels, specifically the sexual relationship between the 15 year old Elizabeth and the much older Denoriel, and the attempted seduction of Elizabeth by her stepfather Thomas Seymour. Never mind that in the 1500s a fifteen year old female is old enough to already be a mother (per Shakespeare), and that Seymour [[TruthInTelevision did]] try to seduce Elizabeth.
21st Apr '18 7:50:20 PM Malady
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** One example not explicitly stated, but causes {{squick}} amongst today's readers who think about it: the Ingalls clan generally lived in one-room cabins though Laura's childhoold. Yet Ma kept pumping out kids after Laura and Mary (Carrie, then Charles Jr who died in infancy, then Grace). This means, to put it bluntly, Ma and Pa were having sex in the same room with their children. This was no doubt considered normal back then, but would get the parents arrested today.

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** One example not explicitly stated, but causes {{squick}} amongst today's readers who think about it: the Ingalls clan generally lived in one-room cabins though Laura's childhoold.childhood. Yet Ma kept pumping out kids after Laura and Mary (Carrie, then Charles Jr who died in infancy, then Grace). This means, to put it bluntly, Ma and Pa were having sex in the same room with their children. This was no doubt considered normal back then, but would get the parents arrested today.
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