History ValuesDissonance / Literature

21st Sep '16 12:59:09 AM PaulA
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* The PhilipMarlowe books of Creator/RaymondChandler were written in the forties and fifties, and their hero's perceptions are certainly of that age.

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* The PhilipMarlowe Literature/PhilipMarlowe books of Creator/RaymondChandler were written in the forties and fifties, and their hero's perceptions are certainly of that age.



** Marlowe uses racial slurs, such as wop.

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** Marlowe uses racial slurs, such as wop. In ''Farewell, My Lovely'' he casually throws around racist slurs about African Americans (although it is perhaps worth noting that when interacting with African American characters face-to-face in the same novel, he seems fairly tolerant and polite to them).



* Literature/RaymondChandler's Literature/PhillipMarlowe is, by the standards of modernity, not a particularly politically correct fellow; he's overtly misogynistic and homophobic and in ''Farewell, My Lovely'' casually throws around racist slurs about African Americans (although it is [[FairForItsDay perhaps worth noting that]] when interacting with African American characters face-to-face in the same novel, he seems fairly tolerant and polite to them).
19th Sep '16 12:51:25 PM LaughingGiraffe
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Added DiffLines:

* Readers of Robertson Davies' Cornish Trilogy are likely to wonder if Davies ever actually met any Romani, openly gay people, or even women, based on his rather cavalier and highly stereotypical depictions of them.
17th Sep '16 11:28:47 PM sotnosen95
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* In Creator/BeverlyCleary's ''[[Literature/RamonaQuimby Beezus and Ramona]]'', pre-school age Ramona is left to play in a sandbox in a public park with no supervision. Modern parents would be too terrified of her being scooped up by a pedo to do such a thing. Later in the series, Kindergarten Ramona hides all day because she doesn't want a substitute teacher (with no concern over where she is that we see), walks to and from school, crossing a busy street, is left home alone, and is punished by having to sit outside the classroom -when the classroom opens not onto a hallway, but a playground!

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* In Creator/BeverlyCleary's ''[[Literature/RamonaQuimby Beezus and Ramona]]'', pre-school age Ramona is left to play in a sandbox in a public park with no supervision. Modern parents would be too terrified of her being scooped up by a pedo to do such a thing. Later in the series, Kindergarten Ramona hides all day because she doesn't want a substitute teacher (with no concern over where she is that we see), walks to and from school, crossing a busy street, is left home alone, and is punished by having to sit outside the classroom -when - when the classroom opens not onto a hallway, but a playground!
17th Sep '16 9:01:42 PM Furienna
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\\
Along with this, the frank displays of emotion between Frodo and Sam, Aragorn and Boromir, and many other male characters has created a tremendous FountainOfMemes regarding the story containing an excess of HoYay to modern audiences. Many modern readers aren't accustomed to seeing platonic relationships between men depicted with such outward showings of emotion.

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** Along with this, the frank displays of emotion between Frodo and Sam, Aragorn and Boromir, and many other male characters has created a tremendous FountainOfMemes regarding the story containing an excess of HoYay to modern audiences. Many modern readers aren't accustomed to seeing platonic relationships between men depicted with such outward showings of emotion.



** Pregnancy and other womanly matters are often glossed over, which is understandable given the time period. Around the time Anne would start menstruating, her doctor tells Marilla that she should leave off studying and get plenty of exercise; a common thought in the medical community was that menstruation made women anemic and nervous and that too much cerebral activity would make it worse. Definitely not something a modern reader would pick up on. The references to pregnancy are equally as vague, and modern readers are wont to miss them until the actual births. Anne calls herself a "dreamer of dreams," tells her husband she can't wait for spring, and Marilla promises to visit for a few weeks in early June for her first pregnancy. For her second, there is only one reference--Anne is "once more a dreamer of dreams" though the avoiding talking about ''that'' pregnancy makes a little more sense in context; Anne's first baby [[spoiler: died a few hours after birth]] and she is understandably hesitant to get attached. Birth scenes are also avoided (except, oddly, for the first one, which is rather plainly written). For Jem's birth, the old analogy of a stork is used. The only other birth we read about is Rilla's, which is conveniently written-out by having the events told from her older brother Walter's point of view, and he spent the night at a friend's house.

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** Pregnancy and other womanly matters are often glossed over, which is understandable given the time period. Around the time Anne would start menstruating, her doctor tells Marilla that she should leave off studying and get plenty of exercise; a common thought in the medical community was that menstruation made women anemic and nervous and that too much cerebral activity would make it worse. Definitely not something a modern reader would pick up on. The references to pregnancy are equally as vague, and modern readers are wont to miss them until the actual births. Anne calls herself a "dreamer of dreams," tells her husband she can't wait for spring, and Marilla promises to visit for a few weeks in early June for her first pregnancy. For her second, there is only one reference--Anne reference - Anne is "once more a dreamer of dreams" - though the avoiding talking about ''that'' pregnancy makes a little more sense in context; Anne's first baby [[spoiler: died a few hours after birth]] and she is understandably hesitant to get attached. Birth scenes are also avoided (except, oddly, for the first one, which is rather plainly written). For Jem's birth, the old analogy of a stork is used. The only other birth we read about is Rilla's, which is conveniently written-out by having the events told from her older brother Walter's point of view, and he spent the night at a friend's house.
17th Sep '16 8:56:21 PM Furienna
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*** It's also quite clear that bringing up a small girl in the belief that she's inherently superior to those around her--even her caretakers--is what made Mary so dysfunctional in the first place.

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*** It's also quite clear that bringing up a small girl in the belief that she's inherently superior to those around her--even her caretakers--is - even her caretakers - is what made Mary so dysfunctional in the first place.



** More a case of SocietyMarchesOn, but we're supposed to see Mary--at least through Martha's eyes--as dysfunctional and hopelessly coddled because at the advanced age of ''nine'' she never goes anywhere by herself. In the same part of the world now, Mary would be at about the minimum age that children would start going out of sight of home without an adult.

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** More a case of SocietyMarchesOn, but we're supposed to see Mary--at Mary - at least through Martha's eyes--as eyes - as dysfunctional and hopelessly coddled because at the advanced age of ''nine'' she never goes anywhere by herself. In the same part of the world now, Mary would be at about the minimum age that children would start going out of sight of home without an adult.
17th Sep '16 8:46:20 PM Furienna
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* The work of Creator/TSEliot [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._S._Eliot#Allegations_of_anti-Semitism has been criticised]] on the grounds that it contains a strong element of anti-semitism, and it's hard to argue, as some have done, that lines like "The rat is underneath the pile. / The jew is underneath the lot." are ''in no way'' offensive. The real question is not whether Eliot is or isn't offensive at times, but how we're going to handle it; even those who admire him have to admit that, in his poetry, he played with anti-semitism in a way that strikes us now as being at best questionable. It doesn't mean that he wasn't a major poet; just that he could be a pretty malevolent one.

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* The work of Creator/TSEliot [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._S._Eliot#Allegations_of_anti-Semitism has been criticised]] on the grounds that it contains a strong element of anti-semitism, and it's hard to argue, as some have done, that lines like "The rat is underneath the pile. / The jew is underneath the lot." are ''in no way'' offensive. The real question is not whether Eliot is or isn't offensive at times, but how we're going to handle it; even those who admire him have to admit that, in his poetry, he played with anti-semitism in a way that strikes us now as being at best questionable. It doesn't mean that he wasn't a major poet; just that he could be a pretty malevolent one.
17th Sep '16 8:03:29 PM Furienna
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* ''Sandro of Chegem'' by Fazil Iskander contains a number of examples. One is about the people from the titular place (a conservative mountain village) displeased at the sight of an old female guard with a gun. Suspicious of their constant proximity, she summons a militia man. He explains to her they merely "have never seen female guards; somewhat savage highlanders." Upon hearing it, they laugh out loud -what could be more savage than an armed woman?

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* ''Sandro of Chegem'' by Fazil Iskander contains a number of examples. One is about the people from the titular place (a conservative mountain village) displeased at the sight of an old female guard with a gun. Suspicious of their constant proximity, she summons a militia man. He explains to her they merely "have never seen female guards; somewhat savage highlanders." Upon hearing it, they laugh out loud -what - what could be more savage than an armed woman?
17th Sep '16 7:58:35 PM Furienna
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** Considering that Lewis once said [[http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/84171-critics-who-treat-adult-as-a-term-of-approval-instead "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence [...] But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development"]], it's just as likely that Susan's exclusion from Narnia was because she was more "immature" than her siblings (they all were unashamed of their love of Narnia while she tried to embrace adult things deny the magical country, even though she was at an age where Lewis believed an obsession with adulthood was ridiculous).
** Lewis left himself an out -- Susan may have lost interest in Narnia, but the primary reason she's not in ''The Last Battle'' is simply that she was not on that train ride and so is not killed in the crash. As Lewis himself wrote, there is no reason to assume that she won't come back to Narnia someday 'in her own time and her own way'.

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** Considering that Lewis once said [[http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/84171-critics-who-treat-adult-as-a-term-of-approval-instead "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence [...] But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development"]], it's just as likely that Susan's exclusion from Narnia was because she was more "immature" than her siblings (they all were unashamed of their love of Narnia while she tried to embrace adult things and deny the magical country, even though she was at an age where Lewis believed an obsession with adulthood was ridiculous).
** Lewis left himself an out -- - Susan may have lost interest in Narnia, but the primary reason she's not in ''The Last Battle'' is simply that she was not on that train ride and so is not killed in the crash. As Lewis himself wrote, there is no reason to assume that she won't come back to Narnia someday 'in her own time and her own way'.
17th Sep '16 7:48:22 PM Furienna
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** Not to mention the MayDecemberRomance that is the feature of the book: Jane's 18-20 to Mr. Rochester's nearly 40.

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** Not to mention the MayDecemberRomance that is the feature of the book: ''"Jane Eyre"'': Jane's 18-20 to Mr. Rochester's nearly 40.
17th Sep '16 6:28:02 PM Furienna
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* In Creator/BeverlyCleary's ''[[Literature/RamonaQuimby Beezus and Ramona]]'', pre-school age Ramona is left to play in a sandbox in a public park with no supervision. Modern parents would be too terrified of her being scooped up by a pedo to do such a thing. Later in the series, Kindergarten Ramona hides all day because she doesn't want a substitute teacher (with no concern over where she is that we see), walks to and from school, crossing a busy street, is left home alone, and is punished by having to sit outside the classroom--when the classroom opens not onto a hallway, but a playground!

to:

* In Creator/BeverlyCleary's ''[[Literature/RamonaQuimby Beezus and Ramona]]'', pre-school age Ramona is left to play in a sandbox in a public park with no supervision. Modern parents would be too terrified of her being scooped up by a pedo to do such a thing. Later in the series, Kindergarten Ramona hides all day because she doesn't want a substitute teacher (with no concern over where she is that we see), walks to and from school, crossing a busy street, is left home alone, and is punished by having to sit outside the classroom--when classroom -when the classroom opens not onto a hallway, but a playground!
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