History UsefulNotes / Feminism

Lesbians have been an important part of the feminist movement pretty much from day one -- prominent lesbian or bisexual feminists include Andrea Dworkin, Valerie Solanas, Simone de Beauvoir, Judith Butler, Camille Paglia and Mary Daly. However, many (probably most) feminists are straight women. There are also male feminists (straight, bisexual, gay and asexual), asexual feminists, transgender feminists, and feminists of any other sexuality and gender identity you can think of.

Lesbians have been an important part of the feminist movement pretty much from day one -- prominent lesbian or bisexual feminists include Andrea Dworkin, Valerie Solanas, Simone de Beauvoir, Judith Butler, Camille Paglia and Mary Daly. However, many (probably most) feminists are straight women. There are also male feminists (straight, bisexual and gay), asexual feminists, transgender feminists, and feminists of any other sexuality and gender identity you can think of.

A good comparison to feminism is a major religion like Christianity. They've both got one essential message, but there are many divisions and subgroups with different views on how to interpret/act on on that message, and some of them [[{{Understatement}} don't get along so well]]. There are literally dozens of different factions within the feminist movement, which split off of each other due to disagreements over everything from abortion rights to the pairing of feminism with racial/gay/whathaveyou rights movements to how big of a problem gender discrimination really is in the first place.

Most feminists would agree that there are slight, overall differences between the sexes. While sentiments like "men tend to be slightly physically stronger than women" [[{{Understatement}} can lead to arguments]] if stated/interpreted wrongly, the majority of feminists would concede that, yeah, mens gots some muscle. What [[BerserkButton really]] grinds a feminist's gears are suggestions that:

Women who seriously blame men for everything are known to readers of this wiki as [[StrawFeminist Straw Feminists]] and to mainstream feminists as "crazy." Most feminists don't think sexism is primarily something all individual men do to all individual women -- the problem is ''patriarchy'', which is the name for the whole system of cultural ideas and institutions that function to oppress and control women. Women can -- and frequently do -- act in ways that support patriarchy, and men can -- and do -- fight patriarchy. The point of feminism (as much as such a vast and highly fragmented movement can be said to ''have'' a point) is to raise women to the level of rights/respect that men have had for centuries, ''not'' to drag men down to subhuman levels as some cosmic act of revenge.

Back in TheSixties, there were some public demonstrations in which feminists threw bras, high heels, and other fashion-related items into trash cans to protest [[CookieCutterCuties unrealistic standards of beauty]]. A newspaper headline compared these actions to [[DraftDodging men burning draft cards]] during TheVietnamWar. The two ideas got [[BeamMeUpScotty jumbled together]] in the public consciousness, and the myth of bra-burning continues to this day.

->"Gross oversimplification time! What did we get from first-wave feminism? The right to vote, among other things. What did we get from second-wave feminism? The right to have sex indiscriminately, among other things."
-->TheNostalgiaChick

It's pretty uncontroversial in feminist circles to point out that [[MenAreTheExpendableGender patriarchy]] [[BumblingDad hurts]] [[MenCantKeepHouse men]] [[RapeIsFunnyWhenItIsMaleOnMale in]] [[MenDontCry plenty]] [[RealMenHateAffection of]] [[AbuseIsOkayWhenItsFemaleOnMale ways]]. (Some would argue that it hurts women ''more'' on the whole, but others think the whole question of whose oppression is worse is a pointless distraction from actually working to fix things.) Feminists just tend to get angry when men come on to feminist websites ''demanding'' that men's issues take priority. But a lot of feminists specifically focus on the ways men's oppression and women's oppression are linked -- for instance, many argue that companies need to start granting paternity leave both so that fathers can have the chance to bond with their kids, ''and'' so that women aren't always assumed to be the ones who are automatically responsible for child care.

It's pretty uncontroversial in feminist circles to point out that [[MenAreTheExpendableGender patriarchy]] [[BumblingDad hurts]] [[MenCantKeepHouse men]] [[RapeIsFunnyWhenItIsMaleOnMale in]] [[MenDontCry plenty]] [[RealMenHateAffection of]] [[AbuseIsOkayWhenItsFemaleOnMale ways]]. (Some would argue that it hurts women ''more'' on the whole, but others think the whole question of whose oppression is worse is a pointless distraction from actually working to fix things.) Feminists just tend to get angry when men come on to feminist sites ''demanding'' that men's issues take priority. But a lot of feminists specifically focus on the ways men's oppression and women's oppression are linked -- for instance, many argue that companies need to start granting paternity leave both so that fathers can have the chance to bond with their kids, ''and'' so that women aren't always assumed to be the ones who are automatically responsible for child care.

It's pretty uncontroversial in feminist circles to point out that [[MenAreTheExpendableGender patriarchy]] [[BumblingDad hurts]] [[MenCantKeepHouse men]] [[RapeIsFunnyWhenItIsMaleOnMale in]] [[MenDontCry plenty]] [[RealMenHateAffection of]] [[AbuseIsOkayWhenItsFemaleOnMale ways]]. (Some would argue that it hurts women ''more'' on the whole, but others think the whole question of whose oppression is worse is a pointless distraction from actually working to fix things.) Feminists just tend to get angry when men come on to feminist sites ''demanding'' that their issues take priority. But a lot of feminists focus on the ways men's oppression and women's oppression are linked -- for instance, many argue that companies need to start granting paternity leave both so that fathers can have the chance to bond with their kids, ''and'' so that women aren't always assumed to be the ones who are automatically responsible for child care.

It's pretty uncontroversial in feminist circles to point out that [[MenAreTheExpendableGender patriarchy]] [[BumblingDad hurts]] [[MenCantKeepHouse men]] [[RapeIsFunnyWhenItIsMaleOnMale in]] [[MenDontCry plenty]] [[RealMenHateAffection of]] [[AbuseIsOkayWhenItsFemaleOnMale ways]]. (Some would argue that it hurts women ''more'' on the whole, but others think the whole question of whose oppression is worse is a pointless distraction from actually working to fix things.) A lot of feminists focus on the ways men's oppression and women's oppression are linked -- for instance, many argue that companies need to start granting paternity leave both so that fathers can have the chance to bond with their kids, ''and'' so that women aren't always assumed to be the ones who are automatically responsible for child care.

As much as feminists dislike the "women must be dainty and pretty" messages that society/media blast at them, for most, it's the ''must'' part that they object to. Some feminists choose to avoid reject mainstream beauty ideals as a statement of protest, and there are even some who adhere to a RealWomenNeverWearDresses philosophy -- but it's increasingly argued that valuing traditionally masculine behavior (like being unconcerned about looks) over traditionally feminine behavior (like wearing dresses and makeup) is ultimately pretty anti-feminist in itself. Most feminists just think men and women should be equally free to decide for themselves how much effort they care to put into their appearance.

* It's worth noting that there's a minority school of thought that says while men can (and should) ''support'' feminism, they shouldn't identify themselves as feminists, because they think feminism is fundamentally about women solving their own problems without looking to men to do it for them. Men sympathetic to feminism who agree with this point of view generally describe themselves as "pro-feminist."

** It's worth noting that there's a minority school of thought that says while men can (and should) ''support'' feminism, they shouldn't identify themselves as feminists, because they think feminism is fundamentally about women solving their own problems without looking to men to do it for them. Men sympathetic to feminism who agree with this point of view generally describe themselves as "pro-feminist."

Most feminists would agree that there are slight, overall differences between the sexes (aside from [[MostCommonSuperpower the]] [[BiggusDickus obvious]].) While sentiments like "men tend to be slightly physically stronger than women" [[{{Understatement}} can lead to arguments]] if stated/interpreted wrongly, the majority of feminists would concede that, yeah, mens gots some muscle. What [[BerserkButton really]] grinds a feminist's gears are suggestions that:

** There have been a few feminist writers -- especially during the 1970's, before the movement had made as many gains as it had today -- who suggested that it might not be possible to have a truly egalitarian heterosexual relationship, on the grounds that sexism in society had too great an effect on the way even well-intentioned men and women interact with each other. This was fiercely debated even at the time, though, and it was never mainstream feminist dogma that women had to swear off sex with men to become feminists.

As much as feminists dislike the "women must be dainty and pretty" messages that society/media blast at them, for most, it's the ''must'' part that they object to. Some feminists choose to avoid adhering to mainstream beauty ideals as a statement of protest, and there are even some who adhere to a RealWomenNeverWearDresses philosophy -- but it's increasingly argued that valuing traditionally masculine behavior (like being unconcerned about looks) over traditionally feminine behavior (like wearing dresses and makeup) is ultimately pretty anti-feminist in itself. Most feminists just think men and women should be equally free to decide for themselves how much effort they care to put into their appearance.

Feminists have a problem with porn tropes that promote a degrading or hateful view of women (RapeIsLove, ItsNotRapeIfYouEnjoyedIt, SexSlave, etc.), and with the ways the porn industry exploits a lot of the women who work for it. Some -- again, this was a more popular position in the 1970's than it is today -- do think porn ''inherently'' objectifies women and is therefore always misogynistic; other feministss, though, think that what the world needs is better porn. There's more of a consensus on fanservice: feminists are generally not against seeing sexy ladies in media, but don't like how often the ladies' CharacterDevelopment is pushed aside in favor of looking at their, err, ''other'' developments. In any case, most feminists enjoy sex just fine, and [[{{Asexuality}} those who don't]] are typically at least okay with the idea of it. There's even a whole faction of the movement, called Sex-Positive Feminism, that focuses on finding ways to make sex more fun and empowering for everybody.

It's pretty uncontroversial in feminist circles to point out that [[MenAreTheExpendableGender patriarchy]] [[BumblingDad hurts]] [[MenCantKeepHouse men]] [[RapeIsFunnyWhenItsMaleOnMale in]] [[MenDontCry plenty]] [[RealMenHateAffection of]] [[AbuseIsOkayWhenItsFemaleOnMale ways]]. (Some would argue that it hurts women ''more'' on the whole, but others think the whole question of whose oppression is worse is a pointless distraction from actually working to fix things.) A lot of feminists focus on the ways men's oppression and women's oppression are linked -- for instance, many argue that companies need to start granting paternity leave both so that fathers can have the chance to bond with their kids, ''and'' so that women aren't always assumed to be the ones who are automatically responsible for child care.

* '''All feminists are women/only women can be feminists.'''
Just as it's possible for straight people to be in favor of same-sex marriage, or for non-Jews to be against anti-Semitism, it is very much possible for men to identify as feminist (or, for men who don't want to feel like they're "co-opting" the term, "pro-feminist.") Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist-friendly ideals include [[MASHTheSeries Alan]] [[TheWestWing Alda]], JossWhedon, [[AtopTheFourthWall Linkara]] and [[ThatGuyWithTheGlasses most of his male colleagues]], and [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass Frederick Douglass]].
** Though some feminists disagree with this. Probably some men too.

While lesbians have been an important part of the feminist movement pretty much from day one, there are plenty of straight women, tons of bisexual women, a respectable number of asexual women, and even (as mentioned above) a couple of ''men'' who are feminists.
** The existence of several prominent lesbian (or at least bisexual) feminists (like Andrea Dworkin, Valerie Solanas, Simone de Beauvoir, Judith Butler, Camille Paglia and Mary Daly) probably caused this.
** It may also be that lesbians are more likely to publicly ''identify'' themselves as feminists, due to feeling they have less to lose romance-wise if men mistake them for a StrawFeminist.

As much as feminists dislike the "women must be dainty and pretty" messages that society/media blast at them, for most, it's the ''must'' part that they object to. There are some who adhere to a RealWomenNeverWearDresses philosophy, but others find this view offensive, feeling it implies "anything feminine is bad".

** Something that applies to one sex is universal and ''cannot'' apply to the other sex. ("All men are physically strong, all women are physically weak, period.")

Likewise, feminists often wonder how much of certain purported differences - say, girls being better at reading and boys being better at math - are actual innate differences, versus how much they might be a result of socialization (e.g., girls are scared away from pursuing math/boys refuse to spend time reading because they don't want to behave "inappropriately" for their gender and/or they're already convinced they'll be bad at it ''due to'' their gender.)

* '''Feminists think porn/fanservice/sex is evil.'''
There is a bit of a split among feminists on how to deal with porn - some feel that the genre is inherently misogynistic, while others think that tropes frequent in mainstream pornography (RapeIsLove, ItsNotRapeIfYouEnjoyedIt, SexSlave) are ruining what is otherwise a lot of fun. There's more of a consensus on fanservice: Most feminists are fine with seeing sexy ladies in media, but don't like how often the lady's s CharacterDevelopment is pushed aside in favor of looking at their, err, ''other'' developments. And of course, most feminists enjoy sex ([[{{Asexuality}} or are okay with the idea of it]],) but hate hate ''hate'' rape, sexual harassment, and vulgar catcalls.

Women who seriously blame men for everything are known to readers of this wiki as [[StrawFeminist Straw Feminists]] and to mainstream feminists as "crazy." The point of feminism (as much as such a vast and highly fragmented movement can be said to ''have'' a point) is to raise women to the level of rights/respect that men have had for centuries, ''not'' to drag men down to subhuman levels as some cosmic act of revenge.

. . . and even then, there are no guarantees. As with religion and politics, each feminist brings a little bit of their own experiences and prejudices along with them.

** Though not all feminists would agree with this, once some of them vehemently.

While lesbians have been an important part of the feminist movement pretty much from day one, there are plenty of straight women, tons of bisexual women, and a respectable number of asexual women who are feminists. (It may be possible, however, that lesbians are more likely to publicly ''identify'' themselves as feminists, due to feeling they have less to lose romance-wise if men mistake them for a StrawFeminist.)

As much as feminists dislike the "women must be dainty and pretty" messages that society/media blast at them, for most, it's the ''must'' part that they object to. There are some who adhere to a RealWomenNeverWearDresses philosophy, but others find this view offensive, as it implies that "anything feminine is bad".

** Something that applies to one sex is universal and cannot apply to the other sex. ("All men are physically strong, all women are physically weak, period.")
** Differences between the sexes are an excuse for sexual discrimination. ("Women are not as physically strong as men, and thus no women should ever be allowed to have jobs that require lifting heavy objects.")
** Failure to adhere to expectations about their sex is a perfectly good reason to ridicule people. ("Any man weaker than a woman is a loser, any woman stronger than a man is a freak.")
Likewise, feminists often wonder how much of certain purported differences - say, girls being better at reading and boys being better at math - are actual innate differences and how much is a result of socialization (e.g., girls are scared away from pursuing math/boys refuse to spend time reading because they don't want to behave "inappropriately" for their gender, or because they're already convinced they'll be bad at it because of their gender.)

Feminists also have a problem with individual character traits that could have originated from any source or natural human reactions being attributed to gender. For example, Jenny is emotionally distraught because she is going through some hardships in life, yet someone assumes that she's emotionally distraught because she's a girl, when her response has more to do with her being [[NotSoDifferent human]].

There is a bit of a split among feminists on how to deal with porn - some feel that the genre is inherently misogynistic, while others think that [[RapeIsLove tr]][[ItsNotRapeIfYouEnjoyedIt op]][[SexSlave es]] frequent in mainstream pornography are ruining what is otherwise a lot of fun. There's more of a consensus on fanservice: Most feminists are fine with seeing sexy ladies in media, but don't like how often the character development of such ladies is pushed aside in favor of looking at their body. And of course, most feminists enjoy sex ([[{{Asexuality}} or are okay with the idea of it]],) but hate hate ''hate'' rape, sexual harassment, and vulgar catcalls.

Most feminists will have [[BerserkButton certain specific sexism-related issues]] that make them angry; however, they don't go around being cranky all the time, any more than [[{{UsefulNotes/Atheism}} atheists]] do.

* That women should have legal and economic rights, such as the right to vote and to manage their own finances.

In general, individual character traits that could have originated from any source or natural human reactions being attributed to gender. For example, Jenny is emotionally distraught because she is going through some hardships in life, yet someone assumes that she's emotionally distraught because she's a girl, when her response has more to do with her being [[NotSoDifferent human]].

* '''[[UnfortunateImplications Similarly]], all feminists are hairy-legged, makeup-shunnin', boot-wearin' brutes.'''
As much as feminists dislike the "women must be dainty and pretty" messages that society/media blast at them, most agree that it's fun to dress up and look fancy sometimes. There are some who adhere to a RealWomenNeverWearDresses philosophy, but others find this view offensive, as it implies that "feminine things are bad" rather than addressing the bigger problem of "anything done primarily/exclusively by women is bad."

Just as it's possible for straight people to be in favor of same-sex marriage, or for non-Jews to be against anti-Semitism, it is very much possible for men to identify as feminist (or, for men who don't want to feel like they're "co-opting" the term, "pro-feminist.") Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist-friendly ideals include [[MASHTheSeries Alan]] [[TheWestWing Alda]], JossWhedon, [[AtopTheFourthWall Linkara]], and [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass Frederick Douglass]].

Just as it's possible for straight people to be in favor of same-sex marriage, or for non-Jews to be against anti-Semitism, it is very much possible for men to identify as feminist (or, for men who don't want to feel like they're "co-opting" the term, "pro-feminist.") Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist-friendly ideals include [[MASHTheSeries Alan]] [[TheWestWing Alda]], JossWhedon, and [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass Frederick Douglass]].

Back in TheSixties, there were some public demonstrations in which feminists threw bras, high heels, and other fashion-related items into trash cans to protest unrealistic standards of beauty. A newspaper headline compared these actions to [[DraftDodging men burning draft cards]] during TheVietnamWar. The two ideas got jumbled together in the public consciousness, and the myth of bra-burning continues to this day.

Back in The Sixties, there were some public demonstrations in which feminists threw bras, high heels, and other fashion-related items into trash cans to protest unrealistic standards of beauty. A newspaper headline compared these actions to men burning draft cards during the Vietnam War. The two ideas got jumbled together in the public consciousness, and the myth of bra-burning continues to this day.

Most feminists will have [[BerserkButton certain specific sexism-related issues]] that make them angry; however, they don't go around being cranky all the time, any more than [[UsefulNotes/Atheism atheists]] do.

Most feminists will have [[BerserkButton certain specific sexism-related issues]] that make them angry; however, they don't go around being cranky all the time, any more than [[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Atheism atheists]] do.