History UsefulNotes / Feminism

24th Jan '17 9:30:56 PM Steam_Lord
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* ''Ecofeminism'': Emphasises the woman’s relationship to nature and champions the supposedly feminine values of ecology while attacking the androcentric worldview that allegedly treats the earth as something to be used and dominated in the same way patriarchal men treat women. Other environmental philosophies — especially Social Ecology — have criticised ecofeminism for claiming that women have an essentially deeper connection to nature than men, given that many of the ‘feminine’ traits of nature are merely coded as such rather than innately gendered. Plus the fact that many ecofeminists are close to New Age thinking with many even worshiping a Mother Earth Goddess.

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* ''Ecofeminism'': Emphasises the woman’s relationship to nature and champions the supposedly feminine values of ecology while attacking the androcentric worldview that allegedly treats the earth as something to be used and dominated in the same way patriarchal men treat women. Other environmental philosophies — especially Social Ecology — have criticised criticized ecofeminism for claiming that women have an essentially deeper connection to nature than men, given that many of the ‘feminine’ traits of nature are merely coded as such rather than innately gendered. Plus the fact that many ecofeminists are close to New Age thinking with many even worshiping a Mother Earth Goddess.



Some female feminists claim that, just as it's possible for straight people to be in favor of same-sex marriage, or for non-Jews to be against anti-Semitism, it is very much possible for men to identify as feminist. Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist ideals include [[Series/{{Mash}} Alan]] [[Series/TheWestWing Alda]], Creator/JossWhedon, [[Music/{{Nirvana}} Kurt Cobain]], Creator/HayaoMiyazaki, Creator/HenrikIbsen, JohnStuartMill, [[WebVideo/AtopTheFourthWall Linkara]] and [[Website/ThatGuyWithTheGlasses most of his male colleagues]], [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass Frederick Douglass]], Creator/LFrankBaum, [[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/16/trudeau-feminist-united-nations-women-forum_n_9480134.html Prime Minister of Canada Justin Trudeau]], and [[http://www.glamour.com/story/glamour-exclusive-president-barack-obama-says-this-is-what-a-feminist-looks-like US President Barack Obama]].
A competing school of thought that says while men can (and should) ''support'' feminism, they shouldn't ''be'' feminists, because feminism is (or should be) fundamentally about women solving their own problems, without looking to men to do it for them. According to this school, being a feminist is a little like having NWordPrivileges: unless you have been oppressed the way women are, you don't have the background to ''be'' a feminist. Men in this school tend to describe themselves as "pro-feminist" instead, and are called "male allies" by the viewpoint's women. (Like NWordPrivileges, this is acknowledged to be a DoubleStandard in and of itself, though people who keep this philosophy believe the hypocrisy is worth keeping the KnowNothingKnowItAll types out of their movement.)

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Some female feminists claim that, just as it's possible for straight people to be in favor of same-sex marriage, or for non-Jews to be against anti-Semitism, it is very much possible for men to identify as feminist. Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist ideals include [[Series/{{Mash}} Alan]] [[Series/TheWestWing Alda]], Creator/JossWhedon, [[Music/{{Nirvana}} Kurt Cobain]], Creator/HayaoMiyazaki, Creator/HenrikIbsen, JohnStuartMill, [[WebVideo/AtopTheFourthWall Linkara]] and [[Website/ThatGuyWithTheGlasses most of his male colleagues]], [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass Frederick Douglass]], Creator/LFrankBaum, [[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/16/trudeau-feminist-united-nations-women-forum_n_9480134.html Prime Minister of Canada Justin Trudeau]], and [[http://www.glamour.com/story/glamour-exclusive-president-barack-obama-says-this-is-what-a-feminist-looks-like US President Barack Obama]]. \n A competing school of thought that says while men can (and should) ''support'' feminism, they shouldn't ''be'' feminists, because feminism is (or should be) fundamentally about women solving their own problems, without looking to men to do it for them. According to this school, being a feminist is a little like having NWordPrivileges: unless you have been oppressed the way women are, you don't have the background to ''be'' a feminist. Men in this school tend to describe themselves as "pro-feminist" instead, and are called "male allies" by the viewpoint's women. (Like Like NWordPrivileges, this is acknowledged to be a DoubleStandard in and of itself, though people who keep this philosophy believe the hypocrisy is worth keeping the KnowNothingKnowItAll types out of their movement.)
movement.



Feminists also have a problem with attributing to gender individual character traits that could have originated from other sources, like natural human reactions. For example, if Jenny is crying because her father died -- which surely warrants a good cry -- but people observing her assume that she's emotionally distraught because she's a ''giiiiirl''. (If you're about to protest that this sort of behavioral mis-assignment could happen to anyone, well, you're right: it's a known psychological bias called the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error fundamental attribution error]].)

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Feminists also have a problem with attributing to gender individual character traits that could have originated from other sources, like natural human reactions. For example, if Jenny is crying because her father died -- which surely warrants a good cry -- but people observing her assume that she's emotionally distraught because she's a ''giiiiirl''. (If If you're about to protest that this sort of behavioral mis-assignment could happen to anyone, well, you're right: it's a known psychological bias called the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error fundamental attribution error]].)
error]].



Also, feminists can come across as angry at everything in general, constantly railing about the things that are wrong with it and acting as though we live in a CrapsackWorld... but being angry doesn't mean they don't have a point. Think about the furor when [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner Brock Turner]] was convicted of three counts of felony sexual assault, punishable by up to six years in prison... and sentenced to only three months, because the judge very explicitly believed Turner deserved to be a KarmaHoudini. And ''then'' consider that Turner, who served time, is already in an extreme minority; ''[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html ninety-seven percent of sexual assaulters]]'' get away without conviction or punishment. Feminists get angry about this because [[ThisIsUnforgivable anyone would get angry about this]] (excepting perhaps Brock Turner). Add in the many, many other things that feminists worry about (unequal wages, {{Double Standard}}s, gender & sex politics, the plight of women in countries where patriarchy is not balanced by feminism, etc) and it's honestly no wonder that they come across as being pretty irritated..

to:

Also, feminists can come across as angry at everything in general, constantly railing about the things that are wrong with it and acting as though we live in a CrapsackWorld... but being angry doesn't mean they don't have a point. Think about the furor when [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner Brock Turner]] was convicted of three counts of felony sexual assault, punishable by up to six years in prison... and sentenced to only three months, because the judge very explicitly believed Turner deserved to be a KarmaHoudini. And ''then'' consider that Turner, who served time, is already in an extreme minority; ''[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html ninety-seven percent of sexual assaulters]]'' get away without conviction or punishment. Feminists get angry about this because [[ThisIsUnforgivable anyone would get angry about this]] (excepting perhaps Brock Turner). Add in the many, many other things that feminists worry about (unequal wages, {{Double Standard}}s, gender & sex politics, the plight of women in countries where patriarchy is not balanced by feminism, etc) and it's honestly no wonder that they come across as being pretty irritated..
irritated.
24th Jan '17 8:30:14 AM HighCrate
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There are places and times in which feminists ''can'' come across as a sort of StopHavingFunGuy: you're going about your day, making a joke about some AcceptableTargets, and suddenly a feminist says, "Hey, that's not actually funny." Discovering that you have prejudices--conscious or otherwise--is uncomfortable, and some people would rather ShootTheMessenger than confront how society has indoctrinated them.

Also, feminists can come across as angry at everything in general, constantly railing about the things that are wrong with it and acting as though we live in a CrapsackWorld. To put it simply, the JerkassHasAPoint. Think about the furor when [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner Brock Turner]] was convicted of three counts of felony sexual assault, punishable by up to six years in prison... and sentenced to only three months, because the judge very explicitly believed Turner deserved to be a KarmaHoudini. And ''then'' consider that Turner, who served time, is already in an extreme minority; ''[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html ninety-seven percent of sexual assaulters]]'' get away without conviction or punishment. Feminists get angry about this because [[ThisIsUnforgivable anyone would get angry about this]] (excepting perhaps Brock Turner). Add in the many, many other things that feminists worry about (unequal wages, {{Double Standard}}s, gender & sex politics, the plight of women in countries where patriarchy is not balanced by feminism, etc) and it's honestly no wonder that they come across as being pretty irritated..

to:

There are places and times in which feminists ''can'' come across as a sort of StopHavingFunGuy: you're going about your day, making a joke about some AcceptableTargets, and suddenly a feminist says, "Hey, that's not actually funny." Discovering that you have Being accused of having prejudices--conscious or otherwise--is uncomfortable, and some people would rather ShootTheMessenger than confront how society has indoctrinated them.

consider the message.

Also, feminists can come across as angry at everything in general, constantly railing about the things that are wrong with it and acting as though we live in a CrapsackWorld. To put it simply, the JerkassHasAPoint.CrapsackWorld... but being angry doesn't mean they don't have a point. Think about the furor when [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner Brock Turner]] was convicted of three counts of felony sexual assault, punishable by up to six years in prison... and sentenced to only three months, because the judge very explicitly believed Turner deserved to be a KarmaHoudini. And ''then'' consider that Turner, who served time, is already in an extreme minority; ''[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html ninety-seven percent of sexual assaulters]]'' get away without conviction or punishment. Feminists get angry about this because [[ThisIsUnforgivable anyone would get angry about this]] (excepting perhaps Brock Turner). Add in the many, many other things that feminists worry about (unequal wages, {{Double Standard}}s, gender & sex politics, the plight of women in countries where patriarchy is not balanced by feminism, etc) and it's honestly no wonder that they come across as being pretty irritated..
24th Jan '17 7:34:07 AM NubianSatyress
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There are places and times in which feminists ''can'' come across as a sort of StopHavingFunGuy: you're going about your day, making a joke about some AcceptableTargets, and suddenly a feminist says, "Hey, that's not actually funny." Being accused of holding prejudices--conscious or otherwise--is uncomfortable, and some people would rather ShootTheMessenger than discussing how society may have shaped their viewpoint.

Also, feminists can come across as angry at everything in general, constantly railing about the things that are wrong with it and acting as though we live in a CrapsackWorld. This usually boils down to JerkassHasAPoint where different individuals weigh the "Jerkass" and the "point" differently. Take, for example, the ''[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html argument that ninety-seven percent of sexual assaulters]]'' do not face punishment for their crime; while [[ThisIsUnforgivable anyone would get angry about this]], closer examination of the statistics suggests that two-thirds of all accusations that are taken before a judge result in a conviction, but that only 15% of accusations make it to court, with an unknown number going completely unreported.

to:

There are places and times in which feminists ''can'' come across as a sort of StopHavingFunGuy: you're going about your day, making a joke about some AcceptableTargets, and suddenly a feminist says, "Hey, that's not actually funny." Being accused of holding Discovering that you have prejudices--conscious or otherwise--is uncomfortable, and some people would rather ShootTheMessenger than discussing confront how society may have shaped their viewpoint.

has indoctrinated them.

Also, feminists can come across as angry at everything in general, constantly railing about the things that are wrong with it and acting as though we live in a CrapsackWorld. This usually boils down to JerkassHasAPoint where different individuals weigh To put it simply, the "Jerkass" JerkassHasAPoint. Think about the furor when [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner Brock Turner]] was convicted of three counts of felony sexual assault, punishable by up to six years in prison... and sentenced to only three months, because the "point" differently. Take, for example, the judge very explicitly believed Turner deserved to be a KarmaHoudini. And ''then'' consider that Turner, who served time, is already in an extreme minority; ''[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html argument that ninety-seven percent of sexual assaulters]]'' do not face punishment for their crime; while get away without conviction or punishment. Feminists get angry about this because [[ThisIsUnforgivable anyone would get angry about this]], closer examination of this]] (excepting perhaps Brock Turner). Add in the statistics suggests many, many other things that two-thirds feminists worry about (unequal wages, {{Double Standard}}s, gender & sex politics, the plight of all accusations women in countries where patriarchy is not balanced by feminism, etc) and it's honestly no wonder that are taken before a judge result in a conviction, but that only 15% of accusations make it to court, with an unknown number going completely unreported.
they come across as being pretty irritated..



Even when masculist or feminist men are involved in the discussion, there is also an ideological point to be made. Though it is not controversial to point out that sexism hurts men, it changes the tone of a discussion when a man makes that point. It is all-too-easy to infer that he doesn't really care about women's problems unless he is personally affected by them... which, in addition to being a [[ItsAllAboutMe pretty lousy attitude]], would go squarely against the whole ''point'' of feminism. At it's worse extremes there are feminists who flat-out reject the idea of men being affected by sexism, usually citing a "sexism requires prejudice plus power" argument, though they will usually clarify that they are referring to institutional sexism when challenged.

to:

Even when masculist or feminist men are involved in the discussion, there is also an ideological point to be made. Though it is not controversial to point out that sexism hurts men, it changes the tone of a discussion when a man makes that point. It is all-too-easy to infer that he doesn't really care about women's problems unless he is personally affected by them... which, in addition to being a [[ItsAllAboutMe pretty lousy attitude]], would go squarely against the whole ''point'' of feminism. At it's worse extremes there are feminists who flat-out reject the idea of men being affected by sexism, usually citing a "sexism requires prejudice plus power" argument, though they will usually clarify that they are referring to institutional sexism when challenged.
feminism.
24th Jan '17 6:36:29 AM TheHoff779
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Even when masculist or feminist men are involved in the discussion, there is also an ideological point to be made. Though it is not controversial to point out that sexism hurts men, it changes the tone of a discussion when a man makes that point. It is all-too-easy to infer that he doesn't really care about women's problems unless he is personally affected by them... which, in addition to being a [[ItsAllAboutMe pretty lousy attitude]], would go squarely against the whole ''point'' of feminism.

to:

Even when masculist or feminist men are involved in the discussion, there is also an ideological point to be made. Though it is not controversial to point out that sexism hurts men, it changes the tone of a discussion when a man makes that point. It is all-too-easy to infer that he doesn't really care about women's problems unless he is personally affected by them... which, in addition to being a [[ItsAllAboutMe pretty lousy attitude]], would go squarely against the whole ''point'' of feminism.
feminism. At it's worse extremes there are feminists who flat-out reject the idea of men being affected by sexism, usually citing a "sexism requires prejudice plus power" argument, though they will usually clarify that they are referring to institutional sexism when challenged.
24th Jan '17 6:23:41 AM TheHoff779
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There are places and times in which feminists ''can'' come across as a sort of StopHavingFunGuy: you're going about your day, making a joke about some AcceptableTargets, and suddenly a feminist says, "Hey, that's not actually funny." Discovering that you have prejudices--conscious or otherwise--is uncomfortable, and some people would rather ShootTheMessenger than confront how society has indoctrinated them.

Also, feminists can come across as angry at everything in general, constantly railing about the things that are wrong with it and acting as though we live in a CrapsackWorld. To put it simply, the JerkassHasAPoint. Think about the furor when [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner Brock Turner]] was convicted of three counts of felony sexual assault, punishable by up to six years in prison... and sentenced to only three months, because the judge very explicitly believed Turner deserved to be a KarmaHoudini. And ''then'' consider that Turner, who served time, is already in an extreme minority; ''[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html ninety-seven percent of sexual assaulters]]'' get away without conviction or punishment. Feminists get angry about this because [[ThisIsUnforgivable anyone would get angry about this]] (excepting perhaps Brock Turner). Add in the many, many other things that feminists worry about (unequal wages, {{Double Standard}}s, gender & sex politics, the plight of women in countries where patriarchy is not balanced by feminism, etc) and it's honestly no wonder that they come across as being pretty irritated.

to:

There are places and times in which feminists ''can'' come across as a sort of StopHavingFunGuy: you're going about your day, making a joke about some AcceptableTargets, and suddenly a feminist says, "Hey, that's not actually funny." Discovering that you have Being accused of holding prejudices--conscious or otherwise--is uncomfortable, and some people would rather ShootTheMessenger than confront discussing how society has indoctrinated them.

may have shaped their viewpoint.

Also, feminists can come across as angry at everything in general, constantly railing about the things that are wrong with it and acting as though we live in a CrapsackWorld. To put it simply, This usually boils down to JerkassHasAPoint where different individuals weigh the JerkassHasAPoint. Think about "Jerkass" and the furor when [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner Brock Turner]] was convicted of three counts of felony sexual assault, punishable by up to six years in prison... and sentenced to only three months, because "point" differently. Take, for example, the judge very explicitly believed Turner deserved to be a KarmaHoudini. And ''then'' consider that Turner, who served time, is already in an extreme minority; ''[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html argument that ninety-seven percent of sexual assaulters]]'' get away without conviction or punishment. Feminists get angry about this because do not face punishment for their crime; while [[ThisIsUnforgivable anyone would get angry about this]] (excepting perhaps Brock Turner). Add in this]], closer examination of the many, many other things statistics suggests that feminists worry about (unequal wages, {{Double Standard}}s, gender & sex politics, the plight two-thirds of women in countries where patriarchy is not balanced by feminism, etc) and it's honestly no wonder all accusations that they come across as being pretty irritated.
are taken before a judge result in a conviction, but that only 15% of accusations make it to court, with an unknown number going completely unreported.
31st Dec '16 9:53:50 PM Rosa-Minx
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Some female feminists claim that, just as it's possible for straight people to be in favor of same-sex marriage, or for non-Jews to be against anti-Semitism, it is very much possible for men to identify as feminist. Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist ideals include [[Series/{{Mash}} Alan]] [[Series/TheWestWing Alda]], Creator/JossWhedon, [[Music/{{Nirvana}} Kurt Cobain]], Creator/HayaoMiyazaki, Creator/HenrikIbsen, JohnStuartMill, [[WebVideo/AtopTheFourthWall Linkara]] and [[Website/ThatGuyWithTheGlasses most of his male colleagues]], [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass Frederick Douglass]], Creator/LFrankBaum, [[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/16/trudeau-feminist-united-nations-women-forum_n_9480134.html Prime Minister of Canada Justin Trudeau]], and [[http://www.glamour.com/story/glamour-exclusive-president-barack-obama-says-this-is-what-a-feminist-looks-like US President Barack Obama]]. Even [[Franchise/SonicTheHedgehog Dr. Eggman]] has been described as a feminist in the ''VideoGame/SonicHeroes'' [[AllThereInTheManual instruction manual]].

to:

Some female feminists claim that, just as it's possible for straight people to be in favor of same-sex marriage, or for non-Jews to be against anti-Semitism, it is very much possible for men to identify as feminist. Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist ideals include [[Series/{{Mash}} Alan]] [[Series/TheWestWing Alda]], Creator/JossWhedon, [[Music/{{Nirvana}} Kurt Cobain]], Creator/HayaoMiyazaki, Creator/HenrikIbsen, JohnStuartMill, [[WebVideo/AtopTheFourthWall Linkara]] and [[Website/ThatGuyWithTheGlasses most of his male colleagues]], [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass Frederick Douglass]], Creator/LFrankBaum, [[http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/16/trudeau-feminist-united-nations-women-forum_n_9480134.html Prime Minister of Canada Justin Trudeau]], and [[http://www.glamour.com/story/glamour-exclusive-president-barack-obama-says-this-is-what-a-feminist-looks-like US President Barack Obama]]. Even [[Franchise/SonicTheHedgehog Dr. Eggman]] has been described as a feminist in the ''VideoGame/SonicHeroes'' [[AllThereInTheManual instruction manual]].
28th Dec '16 7:25:17 PM Steam_Lord
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Additionally, feminists contend that patriarchy is a ''lot'' more pervasive and subversive than folks generally give it credit for. As an example, look at how StandardFiftiesFather transitioned into a DeadHorseTrope. Hint: it coincides with the rise of the "WomenAreWiser" trope. As women's depictions became increasingly CloserToEarth, men became empty-headed {{Cloudcuckoolander}}s--because, after all, tropes are AlwaysMale and AlwaysFemale, and if women are to be smart, then men ''must'' be dumb. And thus the BumblingDad trope became the norm. This adds another layer to feminism: the fact that it's insulting ''to men'' for men to insist that they are required to be idiots. Patriarchy is harmful to men ''and'' women both. The extent to which a feminist is obliged to fight against Double Standards that hurt ''men'' is... well, it's still somewhat controversial, with some claiming that they might as well fight the good fight and others believing that women are still oppressed a lot more than men, and therefore that should be the priority. What's ''not'' controversial is ''acknowledging'' that patriarchy can and does hurt men; this is basically accepted canon within most branches of feminism.

to:

Additionally, feminists contend that patriarchy is a ''lot'' more pervasive and subversive than folks generally give it credit for. As an example, look at how StandardFiftiesFather transitioned into a DeadHorseTrope. Hint: it coincides with the rise of the "WomenAreWiser" trope. As women's depictions became increasingly CloserToEarth, men became empty-headed {{Cloudcuckoolander}}s--because, after all, tropes are AlwaysMale and AlwaysFemale, and if women are to be smart, then men ''must'' be dumb. And thus the BumblingDad trope became the norm. This adds another layer to feminism: the fact that it's insulting ''to men'' for men to insist that they are required to be idiots.certain outwardly superior but still limiting things, like a strict gender role that still has remnants of the StandardFiftiesFather or at least some form of TheStoic because MenDontCry. Patriarchy is harmful to men ''and'' women both. The extent to which a feminist is obliged to fight against Double Standards that hurt ''men'' is... well, it's still somewhat controversial, with some claiming that they might as well fight the good fight and others believing that women are still oppressed a lot more than men, and therefore that should be the priority. What's ''not'' controversial is ''acknowledging'' that patriarchy can and does hurt men; this is basically accepted canon within most branches of feminism.
21st Dec '16 8:42:00 PM Steam_Lord
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Today--partially thanks to feminism--the "MenAreBetterThanWomen" trope is generally taken with a grain of salt when not actively {{inverted}}. The StandardFiftiesFather has become a DeadHorseTrope [[TheUnfairSex in favor of]] the BumblingDad; the idea of hunting as a foundation of one's economic power is long gone in most places; and the idea that AllMenArePerverts is PlayedForLaughs. But to the extent that the notion survives, it can come with some UnfortunateImplications. After all, if men are better than women, then women are ''worse'' than men... and it's ''acceptable'' to tell them to StayInTheKitchen, engage in MandatoryMotherhood, or to be the StandardHeroReward. (Indeed, in some cultures it's not just acceptable to say these things, it's considered ''virtuous''!) Feminists contend, therefore, that patriarchy is the root of a ''lot'' of women's problems... and their primary cause to fight against patriarchy.

Additionally, feminists contend that patriarchy is a ''lot'' more pervasive and subversive than folks generally give it credit for. As an example, look at how StandardFiftiesFather transitioned into a DeadHorseTrope. Hint: it coincides with the rise of the "WomenAreWiser" trope. As women's depictions became increasingly CloserToEarth, men became empty-headed {{Cloudcuckoolander}}s--because, after all, tropes are AlwaysMale and AlwaysFemale, and if women are to be smart, then men ''must'' be dumb. And thus the BumblingDad trope became the norm. This adds another layer to feminism: the fact that it's insulting ''to men'' to insist that they are required to be idiots. Patriarchy is harmful to men ''and'' women both. The extent to which a feminist is obliged to fight against Double Standards that hurt ''men'' is... well, it's still somewhat controversial, with some claiming that they might as well fight the good fight and others believing that women are still oppressed a lot more than men, and therefore that should be the priority. What's ''not'' controversial is ''acknowledging'' that patriarchy can and does hurt men; this is basically accepted canon within most branches of feminism.

to:

Today--partially thanks to feminism--the "MenAreBetterThanWomen" trope is generally taken with a grain of salt when not actively {{inverted}}. The StandardFiftiesFather has become a DeadHorseTrope [[TheUnfairSex in favor of]] the BumblingDad; the idea of hunting as a foundation of one's economic power is long gone in most places; and the idea that AllMenArePerverts is PlayedForLaughs. But to the extent that the notion survives, it can come with some UnfortunateImplications. After all, if men are better than women, then women are ''worse'' than men... and it's ''acceptable'' to tell them to StayInTheKitchen, engage in MandatoryMotherhood, or to be the StandardHeroReward. (Indeed, Indeed, in some cultures it's not just acceptable to say these things, it's considered ''virtuous''!) ''virtuous''! Feminists contend, therefore, that patriarchy is the root of a ''lot'' of women's problems... and their primary cause to fight against patriarchy.

Additionally, feminists contend that patriarchy is a ''lot'' more pervasive and subversive than folks generally give it credit for. As an example, look at how StandardFiftiesFather transitioned into a DeadHorseTrope. Hint: it coincides with the rise of the "WomenAreWiser" trope. As women's depictions became increasingly CloserToEarth, men became empty-headed {{Cloudcuckoolander}}s--because, after all, tropes are AlwaysMale and AlwaysFemale, and if women are to be smart, then men ''must'' be dumb. And thus the BumblingDad trope became the norm. This adds another layer to feminism: the fact that it's insulting ''to men'' for men to insist that they are required to be idiots. Patriarchy is harmful to men ''and'' women both. The extent to which a feminist is obliged to fight against Double Standards that hurt ''men'' is... well, it's still somewhat controversial, with some claiming that they might as well fight the good fight and others believing that women are still oppressed a lot more than men, and therefore that should be the priority. What's ''not'' controversial is ''acknowledging'' that patriarchy can and does hurt men; this is basically accepted canon within most branches of feminism.
18th Dec '16 6:30:39 PM Discar
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It's pretty uncontroversial in feminist circles to point out that [[MenAreTheExpendableGender sexism]] [[AManIsNotAVirgin does]] [[BumblingDad hurt]] [[MenCantKeepHouse men]] [[DoubleStandardRapeMaleOnMale in]] [[MenDontCry plenty]] [[RealMenHateAffection of]] [[DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale ways]]. The controversy tends to actually lie in what exactly should be ''done'' about this. Will men's issues resulting from sexism will sort themselves out as the patriarchy fades? Or is a concerted pro-men effort called for? There are feminists who specifically focus on the ways men's oppression and women's oppression are linked; for instance, many argue that companies need to start granting paternity leave both so that fathers can have the chance to bond with their kids, ''and'' so that women aren't automatically assumed to be responsible for child care. On the other hand, there are also plenty of feminists who, believing that [[AppealToWorseProblems women are]] ''[[AppealToWorseProblems more]]'' [[AppealToWorseProblems harmed by sexism than men]], can be ambivalent, dismissive or even obstructionist toward efforts to address men's issues.

to:

It's pretty uncontroversial in feminist circles to point out that [[MenAreTheExpendableGender sexism]] [[AManIsNotAVirgin sexism does]] [[BumblingDad hurt]] [[MenCantKeepHouse men]] [[DoubleStandardRapeMaleOnMale in]] [[MenDontCry plenty]] [[RealMenHateAffection of]] [[DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale ways]]. The controversy tends to actually lie in what exactly should be ''done'' about this. Will men's issues resulting from sexism will sort themselves out as the patriarchy fades? Or is a concerted pro-men effort called for? There are feminists who specifically focus on the ways men's oppression and women's oppression are linked; for instance, many argue that companies need to start granting paternity leave both so that fathers can have the chance to bond with their kids, ''and'' so that women aren't automatically assumed to be responsible for child care. On the other hand, there are also plenty of feminists who, believing that [[AppealToWorseProblems women are]] ''[[AppealToWorseProblems more]]'' [[AppealToWorseProblems harmed by sexism than men]], can be ambivalent, dismissive or even obstructionist toward efforts to address men's issues.
29th Nov '16 11:39:03 AM toolenduso
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A good comparison to feminism is a major religion like UsefulNotes/{{Christianity}}. They've both got one essential message, but there are many divisions and subgroups with different views on how to interpret/act on on that message, and some of them don't get along so well. There are literally dozens of different factions within the feminist movement, which split off of each other due to disagreements over everything from abortion rights to the pairing of feminism with racial/gay/whathaveyou rights movements to how big of a problem gender discrimination really is in the first place.

to:

A good comparison to feminism is a major religion like UsefulNotes/{{Christianity}}. They've both got one essential message, but there are many divisions and subgroups with different views on how to interpret/act on on that message, and some of them don't get along so well. There are literally dozens of different factions within the feminist movement, which split off of each other due to disagreements over everything from abortion rights to the pairing of feminism with racial/gay/whathaveyou rights movements to how big of a problem gender discrimination really is in the first place.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=UsefulNotes.Feminism