History Main / YeGoodeOldeDays

23rd Apr '16 4:04:45 PM Hadjorim
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Something to keep in mind is that neither TheDungAges nor Ye Goode Olde Days is "more" accurate than the other. The reality is that while hygiene was not good by modern standards, and living conditions were not what we'd call "comfortable" (what with the lack of air conditioning, flush toilets, and weekly garbage pick-up), neither did most people walk around barefoot, caked in filth, eating rotten food and living in tumble-down huts made of sticks. Many supposedly modern conveniences are thousands of years old: the Romans had central heating, for instance, and the Minoans had a plumbing system with flush toilets.

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Something to keep in mind is that neither TheDungAges nor Ye Goode Olde Days is "more" accurate than the other. The reality is that while hygiene was not good by modern standards, and living conditions were not what we'd call "comfortable" (what with the lack of air conditioning, flush toilets, and weekly garbage pick-up), neither did most people walk around barefoot, caked in filth, eating rotten food and living in tumble-down huts made of sticks. Many supposedly modern conveniences are thousands of years old: the Romans had central heating, for instance, and the Minoans had a plumbing system with flush toilets.\n
24th Jan '16 2:13:57 PM Abracadabrantes
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* Discussed and ultimately defied in ''(Re) Vive l'Empereur!'' After getting a taste of life in 2015 France and discovering that quite a lot of people are nostalgic of his reign, NapoleonBonaparte more or less calls them deluded, saying that if they are so unhappy in their own time, they won't be happier in any other era.
12th Jan '16 8:53:44 PM Fireblood
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* ''Film/AKidInKingArthursCourt'' had medieval England a pretty nice place. It's moderately clean, and unless you stand under a window while walking down the street, you won't be covered in filth [[note]] (watch out for the wives emptying the chamber pot!) [[/note]]. TheProtagonist notes that his Joust helmets smells something awful. Both the princesses are perfectly clean, but then again, ''they're princesses''.
* Nearly [[TheWildWest every Western]] ever made has immaculately clean townships, even when the characters have the appropriate sweaty, weary and dusty appearance ([[FridgeLogic which makes one wonder]] where did they get that dirty in the first place). Horse dung, mud and flies, patched and ragged wooden buildings, straw on the pub floors to absorb spittle and spilled drinks and occasional drunken vomit were the norm rather than an exception in RealLife. On the other hand, it's very often {{averted}} in another manner, as the violence sometimes gets very exaggerated. Most towns had strict gun laws, requiring that visitors check them with the sheriff (perhaps the only film that shows this is ''{{Film/Unforgiven}}'', which even so has plenty of violence). The bottom line is that the film version of the Wild West was both cleaner ''and'' more violent.

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* ''Film/AKidInKingArthursCourt'' had medieval England as a pretty nice place. It's moderately clean, and unless you stand under a window while walking down the street, you won't be covered in filth [[note]] (watch out for the wives emptying the chamber pot!) [[/note]]. TheProtagonist notes that his Joust joust helmets smells smell something awful. Both the princesses are perfectly clean, but then again, ''they're princesses''.
* Nearly [[TheWildWest every Western]] ever made has immaculately clean townships, even when the characters have the appropriate sweaty, weary and dusty appearance ([[FridgeLogic which makes one wonder]] where did they get got that dirty in the first place). Horse dung, mud and flies, patched and ragged wooden buildings, straw on the pub floors to absorb spittle and spilled drinks and occasional drunken vomit were the norm rather than an exception in RealLife. On the other hand, it's very often {{averted}} in another manner, as the violence sometimes gets very exaggerated. Most towns had strict gun laws, requiring that visitors check them with the sheriff (perhaps the only film that shows this is ''{{Film/Unforgiven}}'', which even so has plenty of violence). The bottom line is that the film version of the Wild West was both cleaner ''and'' more violent.



* Justified in ''Literature/ABrothersPrice'', as the family has a tradition of putting somewhat more effort into getting and staying clean than their neighbors. [[spoiler: This is mainly because Jerin's grandfather was a prince and used to more cleanliness.]]
* Creator/GKChesterton was often accused of making the past look better than the current age. He responded by saying he was correcting the "Whiggish" view of history (that being the view that all the mistakes of the past lead towards a better future). Of course this didn't make bias for the past correct either.

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* Justified [[JustifiedTrope Justified]] in ''Literature/ABrothersPrice'', as the family has a tradition of putting somewhat more effort into getting and staying clean than their neighbors. [[spoiler: This is mainly because Jerin's grandfather was a prince and used to more cleanliness.]]
* Creator/GKChesterton was often accused of making the past look better than the current age. He responded by saying he was correcting the "Whiggish" view of history (that being the view that all the mistakes of the past lead towards a better future). Of course this didn't make a bias for the past correct either.



* Pointedly averted in the ''Literature/TimeScout'' series. Travellers through the Time Gates get multiple shots, they take many, many preparations against death and disease, they understand that they may have to be quarantined when they return, and men intending to go brothel-hopping downtime even get surgically restored foreskins.

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* Pointedly averted {{averted}} in the ''Literature/TimeScout'' series. Travellers Travelers through the Time Gates get multiple shots, they take many, many preparations against death and disease, they understand that they may have to be quarantined when they return, and men intending to go brothel-hopping downtime even get surgically restored foreskins.



* Otto Bettmann's (non-fiction) book ''The Good Old Days -- They Were Terrible!'' is dedicated to debunking this trope, in regards to American society in the late 19th/early 20th century. Child-labor sweatshops, streets filled with manure and trash, malnutrition among frontiersmen, etc.

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* Otto Bettmann's (non-fiction) book ''The Good Old Days -- They Were Terrible!'' is dedicated to debunking this trope, trope in regards to American society in the late 19th/early 20th century. Child-labor Gilded Age (c. 1870s-1900). Child labor sweatshops, streets filled with manure and trash, malnutrition among frontiersmen, etc.etc. are shown.







* PBS ran a series of reality-based programs (the names varied from series to series but were generally ''[Decade] House'' (1900 House, 1940's House) or ''[Setting] House'' (Frontier House, Manor House, Colonial House)) in the early 2000s, where modern families with an interest in, but no great knowledge of, another era were asked to live in a expertly-crafted recreation of that time for several months.

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* PBS ran a series of reality-based programs (the names varied from series to series but were generally ''[Decade] House'' (1900 House, 1940's House) or ''[Setting] House'' (Frontier House, Manor House, Colonial House)) in the early 2000s, where modern families with an interest in, but no great knowledge of, another era were asked to live in a an expertly-crafted recreation of that time for several months.



* The Series/BBCHistoricalFarmSeries loves to avert this trope, but at the same time, likes to call out misconceptions that exaggerate TheDungAges reputation of past societies.
* ''Series/TheDailyShow'' once had John Oliver try to track down when "The Good Ol' Days" ''were'', after hearing the likes of GlennBeck, SeanHannity, and BillOReilly lament their passing. He proceeded to interview people who'd grown up in each preceding decade (starting at the '70s), all of whom disproved the notion by [[LongList listing the things that were screwy]] during that period, culminating in a woman who'd lived in the '20s describing TheGreatDepression. He concluded they [[NostalgiaFilter all felt the good old days were when they'd been children]], since everything usually seems better at that point, largely because parents will go to great lengths to protect their children form poor circumstances.

to:

* The Series/BBCHistoricalFarmSeries loves to avert this trope, but at the same time, time likes to call out misconceptions that exaggerate TheDungAges reputation of past societies.
* ''Series/TheDailyShow'' once had John Oliver try to track down when "The Good Ol' Days" ''were'', after hearing the likes of GlennBeck, SeanHannity, and BillOReilly lament their passing. He proceeded to interview people who'd grown up in each preceding decade (starting at the '70s), all of whom disproved the notion by [[LongList listing the things that were screwy]] during that period, culminating in a woman who'd lived in the '20s '30s describing TheGreatDepression. He concluded they [[NostalgiaFilter all felt the good old days were when they'd been children]], since everything usually seems better at that point, largely because parents will go to great lengths to protect their children form poor circumstances.



* ''WesternAnimation/TheSimpsons'' took part in a reality show where they lived in a Edwardian Era lifestyle while their house is gassed for termites. The family had to ride Cugnot Steam Trolley to Apu's, and could only buy stuff that was in the 1900s. Eventually though they got ''so'' into it, even adopting the speech mannerisms and mindset of the era, that viewers grow bored. The show then gets derailed when the producers try to get more ratings by putting the family in danger, by sending them and the house they're staying down a river.

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* ''WesternAnimation/TheSimpsons'' took part in a reality show where they lived in a Edwardian Era turn of the century lifestyle while their house is gassed for termites. The family had to ride Cugnot Steam Trolley to Apu's, and could only buy stuff that was in the 1900s. Eventually though they got ''so'' into it, even adopting the speech mannerisms and mindset of the era, that viewers grow bored. The show then gets derailed when the producers try to get more ratings by through introducing a washed-up '70s TV actor (who's entirely out of place) and putting the family in danger, danger by sending them and the house they're staying down a river.



* The glories of AncientGrome (and other pre-medieval societies) continue to hold in thrall the imaginations of a loose coalition of many ivory-tower types (tending to be the same ones who bemoan the discontinuation of Latin courses in secondary schools and even in colleges and decry [[LowestCommonDenominator the "dumbing-down" of modern culture]]), anti-Christians, and [[NostalgiaAintLikeItUsedToBe sentimental nostalgists]] disgusted by such modern phenomena as obnoxiously beeping technology everywhere, multiculturalism and PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad. To hear these people talk, you'd think the Roman Empire was an ideal time for [[GoldenMeanFallacy "normal, civilized"]] people like the American middle class likes to think itself to be, with law and order courtesy of a huge standing army defending the populace from [[{{Demonization}} those murderous barbarians]], [[SceneryPorn beautiful architecture]], peaceful villas and orchards, fun-filled festivals, everyone bathing regularly unlike those [[TheDungAges filthy medieval bumpkins]] (or, for that matter, [[NewAgeRetroHippie New Age Retro Hippies]] and [[AllBikersAreHellsAngels redneck bikers]] today), folks being polite and knowing their place, and an erudite citizenry debating everything from politics to art in elevated language while wearing sexy togas, without any [[MoralGuardians cretinous Christian morality]] stifling anyone's creativity or spoiling their fun. It certainly doesn't help that countless plays, movies, and television shows have [[TheThemeParkVersion idealized the ancient Romans]] and other civilizations, leaving out most of the bad stuff like (in the case of the Roman Empire) widespread socioeconomic inequality (for one thing, a shockingly large number of people were on welfare, and ''not'' the "glamorous" nanny-state welfare we imagine today), an unstable parliamentary monarchical system with [[TheCaligula frequently psychopathic emperors]], an arrogant imperialist mindset that left Romans both bigoted and fatally complacent - and the fact that [[WickedCultured while Romans were snobs, they were hardly civilized]], indulging in pornography, unusually cruel public humiliations and executions (reaching their nadir in crucifixion, of course, although the "triumph" parades were likewise degrading spectacles), and sadistic entertainments (gladiator fights to the death, slaughtering of wild animals) that made today's "Ultimate Fighting" look tame. Also, all that technology ''has'' extended lifespans and made basic existence more comfortable, despite its annoyances and erosion of traditional ways.

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* The glories of AncientGrome (and other pre-medieval societies) continue to hold in thrall the imaginations of a loose coalition of many ivory-tower types (tending to be the same ones who bemoan the discontinuation of Latin courses in secondary schools and even in colleges and decry [[LowestCommonDenominator the "dumbing-down" of modern culture]]), anti-Christians, and [[NostalgiaAintLikeItUsedToBe sentimental nostalgists]] disgusted by such modern phenomena as obnoxiously beeping technology everywhere, multiculturalism and PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad. To hear these people talk, you'd think the Roman Empire was an ideal time for [[GoldenMeanFallacy "normal, civilized"]] people like the American middle class likes to think itself to be, with law and order courtesy of a huge standing army defending the populace from [[{{Demonization}} those murderous barbarians]], [[SceneryPorn beautiful architecture]], peaceful villas and orchards, fun-filled festivals, everyone bathing regularly unlike those [[TheDungAges filthy medieval bumpkins]] (or, for that matter, [[NewAgeRetroHippie New Age Retro Hippies]] and [[AllBikersAreHellsAngels redneck bikers]] today), folks being polite and knowing their place, and an erudite citizenry debating everything from politics to art in elevated language while wearing sexy togas, without any [[MoralGuardians cretinous Christian morality]] stifling anyone's creativity or spoiling their fun. It certainly doesn't help that countless plays, movies, and television shows have [[TheThemeParkVersion idealized the ancient Romans]] and other civilizations, leaving out most of the bad stuff like (in the case of the Roman Empire) widespread socioeconomic inequality (for one thing, a shockingly large number of people were on welfare, and ''not'' the "glamorous" nanny-state welfare we imagine today), an unstable parliamentary monarchical system with [[TheCaligula frequently psychopathic emperors]], an arrogant imperialist mindset that left Romans both bigoted and fatally complacent - and the fact that [[WickedCultured while Romans were snobs, they were hardly civilized]], indulging in pornography, unusually cruel public humiliations and executions (reaching their nadir in crucifixion, of course, although the "triumph" parades were likewise degrading spectacles), and sadistic entertainments (gladiator fights to the death, slaughtering of wild animals) that made today's "Ultimate Fighting" look tame. Also, all that technology ''has'' extended lifespans and made basic existence more comfortable, despite its annoyances and erosion of traditional ways.



* Most of the [[http://www.prydein.com/pipes/mnu1/index.html art]] of the Middle Ages does not depict the poor as emaciated or dirty. Thus the artist(s) imply that everyone was well fed and clean back then [[note]] In years with good harvest, no plague, and no war, then maybe. [[/note]]

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* Most of the [[http://www.prydein.com/pipes/mnu1/index.html art]] art of the Middle Ages does not depict the poor as emaciated or dirty. Thus the artist(s) imply that everyone was well fed and clean back then [[note]] In [[note]]In years with good harvest, no plague, and no war, then maybe. maybe.[[/note]]


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* Some have gone even further back, idolizing pre-civilization and thus crossing into NobleSavage territory with their view of hunter-gatherer peoples (or foragers, as anthropologists now call them). While it's true some foraging peoples were peaceful, this was mostly the ones largely isolated who thus didn't have enemies to fight (with tragic consequences if hostile forces ''did'' find them). Many were extremely violent, with some anthropologists estimating their men on average as having a homicide rate as high as ''40-60 %'' due to endemic warfare. This may stem largely from guilt over how foraging peoples were and are treated, but it does not make such idealized conceptions of them any more correct than the opposite.
9th Jan '16 3:27:18 PM eroock
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-->''"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."''

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-->''"The ->''"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."''
19th Sep '15 6:12:01 AM Morgenthaler
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* In James Clavell's ''{{Shogun}}'', both book and TV series, Blackthorne's Dutch crew insist on maintaining European standards of hygiene and housekeeping, utterly appalling their Japanese hosts. Men not at home with the idea of daily baths, who throw their intimate refuse out into the street in accordance with European custom, soon find themselves demoted to the ''eto'' class - lowly, despised and untouchable dregs of humanity. This is meant as both condemnation and judgment, but they simply do not notice.

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* In James Clavell's ''{{Shogun}}'', ''Literature/{{Shogun}}'', both book and TV series, Blackthorne's Dutch crew insist on maintaining European standards of hygiene and housekeeping, utterly appalling their Japanese hosts. Men not at home with the idea of daily baths, who throw their intimate refuse out into the street in accordance with European custom, soon find themselves demoted to the ''eto'' class - lowly, despised and untouchable dregs of humanity. This is meant as both condemnation and judgment, but they simply do not notice.



* ''TheDailyShow'' once had John Oliver try to track down when "The Good Ol' Days" ''were'', after hearing the likes of GlennBeck, SeanHannity, and BillOReilly lament their passing. He proceeded to interview people who'd grown up in each preceding decade (starting at the '70s), all of whom disproved the notion by [[LongList listing the things that were screwy]] during that period, culminating in a woman who'd lived in the '20s describing TheGreatDepression. He concluded they [[NostalgiaFilter all felt the good old days were when they'd been children]], since everything usually seems better at that point, largely because parents will go to great lengths to protect their children form poor circumstances.

to:

* ''TheDailyShow'' ''Series/TheDailyShow'' once had John Oliver try to track down when "The Good Ol' Days" ''were'', after hearing the likes of GlennBeck, SeanHannity, and BillOReilly lament their passing. He proceeded to interview people who'd grown up in each preceding decade (starting at the '70s), all of whom disproved the notion by [[LongList listing the things that were screwy]] during that period, culminating in a woman who'd lived in the '20s describing TheGreatDepression. He concluded they [[NostalgiaFilter all felt the good old days were when they'd been children]], since everything usually seems better at that point, largely because parents will go to great lengths to protect their children form poor circumstances.
10th Aug '15 12:31:18 PM ChaoticNovelist
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Of course, many champions of preindustrial living are not stupid: they are well aware of the more unsavory aspects of those past eras. But they tend to insist that those problems weren't ''that'' bad or were suffered by only a minority of people, or even that those who indulged in degrading practices were [[NoTrueScotsman not]] ''[[NoTrueScotsman true]]'' [[NoTrueScotsman exemplars of those societies]] and were ruining the social standards for everyone else.

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Of course, many Many champions of preindustrial living are not stupid: they are well aware of the more unsavory aspects of those past eras. But they tend to insist Their stance is that those problems weren't ''that'' extremely bad or were suffered by only a minority of people, or even that those who indulged in degrading practices were [[NoTrueScotsman not]] ''[[NoTrueScotsman true]]'' [[NoTrueScotsman exemplars of those societies]] and were ruining the social standards for everyone else.
9th Aug '15 7:27:14 PM 10-13-2
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Added DiffLines:

Of course, many champions of preindustrial living are not stupid: they are well aware of the more unsavory aspects of those past eras. But they tend to insist that those problems weren't ''that'' bad or were suffered by only a minority of people, or even that those who indulged in degrading practices were [[NoTrueScotsman not]] ''[[NoTrueScotsman true]]'' [[NoTrueScotsman exemplars of those societies]] and were ruining the social standards for everyone else.
9th Aug '15 7:20:13 PM 10-13-2
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* The glories of AncientGrome (and other pre-medieval societies) continue to hold in thrall the imaginations of a loose coalition of many ivory-tower types (tending to be the same ones who bemoan the discontinuation of Latin courses in secondary schools and even in colleges and decry [[LowestCommonDenominator the "dumbing-down" of modern culture]]), anti-Christians, and [[NostalgiaAintLikeItUsedToBe sentimental nostalgists]] disgusted by such modern phenomena as obnoxiously beeping technology everywhere, multiculturalism and PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad. To hear these people talk, you'd think the Roman Empire was an ideal time for [[GoldenMeanFallacy "normal, civilized"]] people like the American middle class likes to think itself to be, with law and order courtesy of a huge standing army defending the populace from [[{{Demonization}} those murderous barbarians]], [[SceneryPorn beautiful architecture]], peaceful villas and orchards, fun-filled festivals, everyone bathing regularly unlike those [[TheDungAges filthy medieval bumpkins]] (or, for that matter, [[NewAgeRetroHippie New Age Retro Hippies]] and [[AllBikersAreHellsAngels redneck bikers]] today), folks being polite and knowing their place, and an erudite citizenry debating everything from politics to art in elevated language while wearing sexy togas, without any [[MoralGuardians cretinous Christian morality]] stifling anyone's creativity or spoiling their fun. It certainly doesn't help that countless plays, movies, and television shows have [[TheThemeParkVersion idealized the ancient Romans]] and other civilizations, leaving out most of the bad stuff like (in the case of the Roman Empire) widespread socioeconomic inequality, an unstable parliamentary monarchical system with [[TheCaligula frequently psychopathic emperors]], an arrogant imperialist mindset that left Romans both bigoted and fatally complacent - and the fact that [[WickedCultured while Romans were snobs, they were hardly civilized]], indulging in pornography, unusually cruel public humiliations and executions (reaching their nadir in crucifixion, of course, although the "triumph" parades were likewise degrading spectacles), and sadistic entertainments (gladiator fights to the death, slaughtering of wild animals) that made today's "Ultimate Fighting" look tame. Also, all that technology ''has'' extended lifespans and made basic existence more comfortable, despite its annoyances and erosion of traditional ways.

to:

* The glories of AncientGrome (and other pre-medieval societies) continue to hold in thrall the imaginations of a loose coalition of many ivory-tower types (tending to be the same ones who bemoan the discontinuation of Latin courses in secondary schools and even in colleges and decry [[LowestCommonDenominator the "dumbing-down" of modern culture]]), anti-Christians, and [[NostalgiaAintLikeItUsedToBe sentimental nostalgists]] disgusted by such modern phenomena as obnoxiously beeping technology everywhere, multiculturalism and PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad. To hear these people talk, you'd think the Roman Empire was an ideal time for [[GoldenMeanFallacy "normal, civilized"]] people like the American middle class likes to think itself to be, with law and order courtesy of a huge standing army defending the populace from [[{{Demonization}} those murderous barbarians]], [[SceneryPorn beautiful architecture]], peaceful villas and orchards, fun-filled festivals, everyone bathing regularly unlike those [[TheDungAges filthy medieval bumpkins]] (or, for that matter, [[NewAgeRetroHippie New Age Retro Hippies]] and [[AllBikersAreHellsAngels redneck bikers]] today), folks being polite and knowing their place, and an erudite citizenry debating everything from politics to art in elevated language while wearing sexy togas, without any [[MoralGuardians cretinous Christian morality]] stifling anyone's creativity or spoiling their fun. It certainly doesn't help that countless plays, movies, and television shows have [[TheThemeParkVersion idealized the ancient Romans]] and other civilizations, leaving out most of the bad stuff like (in the case of the Roman Empire) widespread socioeconomic inequality, inequality (for one thing, a shockingly large number of people were on welfare, and ''not'' the "glamorous" nanny-state welfare we imagine today), an unstable parliamentary monarchical system with [[TheCaligula frequently psychopathic emperors]], an arrogant imperialist mindset that left Romans both bigoted and fatally complacent - and the fact that [[WickedCultured while Romans were snobs, they were hardly civilized]], indulging in pornography, unusually cruel public humiliations and executions (reaching their nadir in crucifixion, of course, although the "triumph" parades were likewise degrading spectacles), and sadistic entertainments (gladiator fights to the death, slaughtering of wild animals) that made today's "Ultimate Fighting" look tame. Also, all that technology ''has'' extended lifespans and made basic existence more comfortable, despite its annoyances and erosion of traditional ways.
9th Aug '15 7:18:44 PM 10-13-2
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* The glories of AncientGrome (and other pre-medieval societies) continue to hold in thrall the imaginations of a loose coalition of many ivory-tower types (tending to be the same ones who bemoan the discontinuation of Latin courses in secondary schools and even in colleges and decry [[LowestCommonDenominator the "dumbing-down" of modern culture]]), anti-Christians, and [[NostalgiaAintLikeItUsedToBe sentimental nostalgists]] disgusted by such modern phenomena as obnoxiously beeping technology everywhere, multiculturalism and PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad. To hear these people talk, you'd think the Roman Empire was an ideal time for [[GoldenMeanFallacy "normal, civilized"]] people like the American middle class likes to think itself to be, with law and order courtesy of a huge standing army defending the populace from [[{{Demonization}} those murderous barbarians]], [[SceneryPorn beautiful architecture]], peaceful villas and orchards, fun-filled festivals, everyone bathing regularly unlike those [[TheDungAges filthy medieval bumpkins]] (or, for that matter, [[NewAgeRetroHippie New Age Retro Hippies]] and [[AllBikersAreHellsAngels redneck bikers]] today), folks being polite and knowing their place, and an erudite citizenry debating everything from politics to art in elevated language while wearing sexy togas, without any [[MoralGuardians cretinous Christian morality]] stifling anyone's creativity or spoiling their fun. It certainly doesn't help that countless plays, movies, and television shows have [[TheThemeParkVersion idealized the ancient Romans]] and other civilizations, leaving out most of the bad stuff like (in the case of the Roman Empire) widespread socioeconomic inequality, an unstable parliamentary monarchical system with [[TheCaligula frequently psychopathic emperors]], an arrogant imperialist mindset that left Romans both bigoted and fatally complacent - and the fact that [[WickedCultured while Romans were snobs, they were hardly civilized]], indulging in pornography, unusually cruel public humiliations and executions (reaching their nadir in crucifixion, of course, although the "triumph" parades were likewise degrading spectacles), and sadistic entertainments (gladiator fights to the death, slaughtering of wild animals) that made today's "Ultimate Fighting" look tame.

to:

* The glories of AncientGrome (and other pre-medieval societies) continue to hold in thrall the imaginations of a loose coalition of many ivory-tower types (tending to be the same ones who bemoan the discontinuation of Latin courses in secondary schools and even in colleges and decry [[LowestCommonDenominator the "dumbing-down" of modern culture]]), anti-Christians, and [[NostalgiaAintLikeItUsedToBe sentimental nostalgists]] disgusted by such modern phenomena as obnoxiously beeping technology everywhere, multiculturalism and PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad. To hear these people talk, you'd think the Roman Empire was an ideal time for [[GoldenMeanFallacy "normal, civilized"]] people like the American middle class likes to think itself to be, with law and order courtesy of a huge standing army defending the populace from [[{{Demonization}} those murderous barbarians]], [[SceneryPorn beautiful architecture]], peaceful villas and orchards, fun-filled festivals, everyone bathing regularly unlike those [[TheDungAges filthy medieval bumpkins]] (or, for that matter, [[NewAgeRetroHippie New Age Retro Hippies]] and [[AllBikersAreHellsAngels redneck bikers]] today), folks being polite and knowing their place, and an erudite citizenry debating everything from politics to art in elevated language while wearing sexy togas, without any [[MoralGuardians cretinous Christian morality]] stifling anyone's creativity or spoiling their fun. It certainly doesn't help that countless plays, movies, and television shows have [[TheThemeParkVersion idealized the ancient Romans]] and other civilizations, leaving out most of the bad stuff like (in the case of the Roman Empire) widespread socioeconomic inequality, an unstable parliamentary monarchical system with [[TheCaligula frequently psychopathic emperors]], an arrogant imperialist mindset that left Romans both bigoted and fatally complacent - and the fact that [[WickedCultured while Romans were snobs, they were hardly civilized]], indulging in pornography, unusually cruel public humiliations and executions (reaching their nadir in crucifixion, of course, although the "triumph" parades were likewise degrading spectacles), and sadistic entertainments (gladiator fights to the death, slaughtering of wild animals) that made today's "Ultimate Fighting" look tame. Also, all that technology ''has'' extended lifespans and made basic existence more comfortable, despite its annoyances and erosion of traditional ways.
9th Aug '15 7:15:01 PM 10-13-2
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* The glories of AncientGrome (and other pre-medieval societies) continue to hold in thrall the imaginations of a loose coalition of many ivory-tower types (tending to be the same ones who bemoan the discontinuation of Latin courses in secondary schools and even in colleges and decry [[LowestCommonDenominator the "dumbing-down" of modern culture]]), anti-Christians, and people disgusted by such modern phenomena as obnoxiously beeping technology everywhere, multiculturalism and PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad. To hear these people talk, you'd think the Roman Empire was an ideal time for [[GoldenMeanFallacy "normal, civilized"]] people like the American middle class likes to think itself to be, with law and order courtesy of a huge standing army defending the populace from [[{{Demonization}} those murderous barbarians]], [[SceneryPorn beautiful architecture]], fun-filled festivals, everyone bathing regularly unlike those filthy medieval bumpkins (or, for that matter, [[NewAgeRetroHippie New Age Retro Hippies]] and [[AllBikersAreHellsAngels redneck bikers]] today), folks being polite and knowing their place, and an erudite citizenry debating everything from politics to art in elevated language while wearing sexy togas, without any [[MoralGuardians cretinous Christian morality]] stifling anyone's creativity or spoiling their fun. It certainly doesn't help that countless plays, movies, and television shows have [[TheThemeParkVersion idealized the ancient Romans]] and other civilizations, leaving out most of the bad stuff like (in the case of the Roman Empire) widespread socioeconomic inequality, an unstable parliamentary monarchical system with [[TheCaligula frequently psychopathic emperors]], an arrogant imperialist mindset that left Romans both bigoted and fatally complacent - and the fact that [[WickedCultured while Romans were snobs, they were hardly civilized]], indulging in pornography, unusually cruel public humiliations and executions (reaching their nadir in crucifixion, of course, although the "triumph" parades were likewise degrading spectacles), and sadistic entertainments (gladiator fights to the death, slaughtering of wild animals) that made today's "Ultimate Fighting" look tame.

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* The glories of AncientGrome (and other pre-medieval societies) continue to hold in thrall the imaginations of a loose coalition of many ivory-tower types (tending to be the same ones who bemoan the discontinuation of Latin courses in secondary schools and even in colleges and decry [[LowestCommonDenominator the "dumbing-down" of modern culture]]), anti-Christians, and people [[NostalgiaAintLikeItUsedToBe sentimental nostalgists]] disgusted by such modern phenomena as obnoxiously beeping technology everywhere, multiculturalism and PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad. To hear these people talk, you'd think the Roman Empire was an ideal time for [[GoldenMeanFallacy "normal, civilized"]] people like the American middle class likes to think itself to be, with law and order courtesy of a huge standing army defending the populace from [[{{Demonization}} those murderous barbarians]], [[SceneryPorn beautiful architecture]], peaceful villas and orchards, fun-filled festivals, everyone bathing regularly unlike those [[TheDungAges filthy medieval bumpkins bumpkins]] (or, for that matter, [[NewAgeRetroHippie New Age Retro Hippies]] and [[AllBikersAreHellsAngels redneck bikers]] today), folks being polite and knowing their place, and an erudite citizenry debating everything from politics to art in elevated language while wearing sexy togas, without any [[MoralGuardians cretinous Christian morality]] stifling anyone's creativity or spoiling their fun. It certainly doesn't help that countless plays, movies, and television shows have [[TheThemeParkVersion idealized the ancient Romans]] and other civilizations, leaving out most of the bad stuff like (in the case of the Roman Empire) widespread socioeconomic inequality, an unstable parliamentary monarchical system with [[TheCaligula frequently psychopathic emperors]], an arrogant imperialist mindset that left Romans both bigoted and fatally complacent - and the fact that [[WickedCultured while Romans were snobs, they were hardly civilized]], indulging in pornography, unusually cruel public humiliations and executions (reaching their nadir in crucifixion, of course, although the "triumph" parades were likewise degrading spectacles), and sadistic entertainments (gladiator fights to the death, slaughtering of wild animals) that made today's "Ultimate Fighting" look tame.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.YeGoodeOldeDays