History Main / TheNeedsOfTheMany

24th Apr '17 4:40:42 AM WikiGuardianAngel
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* The Trolley Problem is a though experiment which forces the subject to choose between actively sacrificing one for the many or allowing the many to die through inaction. The thought experiment involves a scenario where a runaway train is barreling down a track towards a group of five people, and a fork between the train and the group to another track on which is one person. The people are immobilized in some way so they are unable to escape. The subject has to decide whether to toggle the switch that will move the train onto the other track, and kill the person on it. A common variation of this is to make the subject decide whether to personally murder by pushing someone into the path of the oncoming train, assuming the person has enough mass to stop it, to save a group of people ahead. This variation is intended to invoke more personal involvement, and experimentally less people are willing to take this option in this variation. The thought experiment is used in psychological studies to gauge the degree of utilitarian thinking in the test subject.
* Weighing the needs of the many is intrinsic to any government decision and policy, where hard decisions have to be made to ensure the greatest prosperity and well being of society. A most direct example of this is in hostage scenarios. Acceding to the demands of the hostage takers, and potentially endangering more people in the future because the criminals emboldened by the success may attempt more hostage takings and are more capable from having acquired the resources. Refusing will result in the death of all hostages, and [[TakeAThirdOption Taking A Third Option]] in trying to attack the hostage takers is likely to get at least some of the hostages, and maybe some of the police, killed. Considering the needs of the many is also present in scenarios less directly involved with life and death, such as whether to cut the funding to the senior citizen assistance programs, and therefore depriving the most vulnerable senior citizens of health and financial aid, to fund infrastructure projects that will aid a regional economy.

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* The Trolley Problem is a though experiment which forces the subject to choose [[SadisticChoice between actively sacrificing one for the many or allowing the many to die through inaction. inaction]]. The thought experiment involves a scenario where a runaway train is barreling down a track towards a group of five people, people who are immobilized, and a fork between the train and the group leads to another track on which is one person. The people are immobilized in some way so they are unable to escape.person. The subject has to decide whether to toggle the switch that will move the train onto the other track, and kill the person on it. The thought experiment is used in psychological studies to gauge the degree of utilitarian thinking in the test subject and how various variables such as age, sex, and degree of fatigue affects it.
**
A common variation of this is to make the subject decide whether to personally murder by pushing someone into the path of the oncoming train, assuming that the person has enough the mass to stop it, to save a group of people ahead. This variation is intended to invoke more personal involvement, and experimentally less people are willing to take this option in this variation. The thought experiment is used in psychological studies to gauge the degree of utilitarian thinking in the test subject.
variation.
* Weighing the needs of the many is intrinsic to any government decision and policy, where hard decisions have to be made to ensure the greatest prosperity and well being of society. A most direct example of this is in hostage scenarios. Acceding to the demands of the hostage takers, and takers can potentially endangering endanger more people in the future because the criminals emboldened by the success may attempt more hostage takings and are more capable from having acquired the resources. Refusing will result in the death of all hostages, and [[TakeAThirdOption Taking A Third Option]] in trying to attack the hostage takers is likely to get at least some of the hostages, and maybe some of the police, killed. killed.
**
Considering the needs of the many is also present in scenarios less directly involved with life and death, such as whether to cut the funding to the senior citizen assistance programs, and therefore depriving the most vulnerable senior citizens of health and financial aid, to fund infrastructure projects that will aid a regional economy.
18th Apr '17 4:45:27 AM ShiroAkuma
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* Played with and ultimately deconstructed in in ''VideoGame/TalesOfBerseria''. "The many outweigh the individual" is the core of Shepherd Artorias's rhetoric, urging people to live their lives according to pure reason. The masses lap this up, seeing him as a messianic figure. At least, right up until RealityEnsues and people realize that merely ascribing to the Abbey's cause and rules doesn't automatically make them part of the many, and if the Abbey decides that protecting them from daemonblight is an ineffective use of resources, they are literally expected to accept being hung out to dry without question. Velvet takes this further in one conversation, pointing out to a pair of true believers that "benevolent" Artorias doesn't give a single solitary damn about anyone. People can die in droves for all he cares, as long as humanity benefits. (She's absolutely right, but VillainWithGoodPublicity that Artorias is, people have a collective blind spot to this bit of logic.)

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* Played with and ultimately deconstructed in in ''VideoGame/TalesOfBerseria''. "The many outweigh the individual" is the core of Shepherd Artorias's Artorius's rhetoric, urging people to live their lives according to pure reason. The masses lap this up, seeing him as a messianic figure. At least, right up until RealityEnsues and people realize that merely ascribing to the Abbey's cause and rules doesn't automatically make them part of the many, and if the Abbey decides that protecting them from daemonblight is an ineffective use of resources, they are literally expected to accept being hung out to dry without question. Velvet takes this further in one conversation, pointing out to a pair of true believers that "benevolent" Artorias Artorius doesn't give a single solitary damn about anyone. People can die in droves for all he cares, as long as humanity benefits. (She's absolutely right, but VillainWithGoodPublicity that Artorias Artorius is, people have a collective blind spot to this bit of logic.)
1st Apr '17 12:11:57 AM Kazmahu
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* "The many outweigh the individual" is the core of Shepherd Artorias's rhetoric in ''VideoGame/TalesOfBerseria'', urging people to live their lives according to pure reason. The masses lap this up, seeing him as a messianic figure. At least, right up until RealityEnsues and people realize that merely ascribing to the Abbey's cause and rules doesn't automatically make them part of the many, and if the Abbey decides that protecting them from daemonblight is an ineffective use of resources, they are literally expected to accept being hung out to dry without question. Velvet takes this further in one conversation, point out to a pair of true believers that "benevolent" Artorias doesn't give a single solitary damn about the people's day-to-day struggles and doesn't care how many faithful die as long as it benefits humanity. (She's absolutely right, but VillainWithGoodPR that Artorias is, people have a collective blind spot to this bit of logic.)

to:

* Played with and ultimately deconstructed in in ''VideoGame/TalesOfBerseria''. "The many outweigh the individual" is the core of Shepherd Artorias's rhetoric in ''VideoGame/TalesOfBerseria'', rhetoric, urging people to live their lives according to pure reason. The masses lap this up, seeing him as a messianic figure. At least, right up until RealityEnsues and people realize that merely ascribing to the Abbey's cause and rules doesn't automatically make them part of the many, and if the Abbey decides that protecting them from daemonblight is an ineffective use of resources, they are literally expected to accept being hung out to dry without question. Velvet takes this further in one conversation, point pointing out to a pair of true believers that "benevolent" Artorias doesn't give a single solitary damn about the people's day-to-day struggles and doesn't care how many faithful anyone. People can die in droves for all he cares, as long as it benefits humanity. humanity benefits. (She's absolutely right, but VillainWithGoodPR VillainWithGoodPublicity that Artorias is, people have a collective blind spot to this bit of logic.)
1st Apr '17 12:09:12 AM Kazmahu
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Added DiffLines:

* "The many outweigh the individual" is the core of Shepherd Artorias's rhetoric in ''VideoGame/TalesOfBerseria'', urging people to live their lives according to pure reason. The masses lap this up, seeing him as a messianic figure. At least, right up until RealityEnsues and people realize that merely ascribing to the Abbey's cause and rules doesn't automatically make them part of the many, and if the Abbey decides that protecting them from daemonblight is an ineffective use of resources, they are literally expected to accept being hung out to dry without question. Velvet takes this further in one conversation, point out to a pair of true believers that "benevolent" Artorias doesn't give a single solitary damn about the people's day-to-day struggles and doesn't care how many faithful die as long as it benefits humanity. (She's absolutely right, but VillainWithGoodPR that Artorias is, people have a collective blind spot to this bit of logic.)
21st Jan '17 3:39:03 PM nighttrainfm
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* Part of [[spoiler:HYDRA's]] doctrine in ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier'', culminating in a plan to institute world peace at the barrel of a gun... with twenty million lives as the first cost.

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* Part ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier'':
** This is part
of [[spoiler:HYDRA's]] doctrine in ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier'', [[spoiler: HYDRA's]] rationale, culminating in a plan to institute world peace at the barrel of a gun... with twenty million lives as the first cost.cost.
** Steve himself ends up having to fight his brainwashed, tortured best friend to save the lives of ''millions'' of people.
-->'''Steve:''' People are gonna die, Buck. I can't let that happen. ''Please'' don't make me do this.
6th Jan '17 9:32:38 AM Morgenthaler
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* In the third ''{{Pendragon}}'' novel, Bobby has to choose between [[spoiler: letting the Hindenburg burn, killing a few dozen people, or saving it and letting Germany win WWII]]. He almost makes the wrong choice, sending him into a temporary HeroicBSOD.

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* In the third ''{{Pendragon}}'' ''Literature/{{Pendragon}}'' novel, Bobby has to choose between [[spoiler: letting the Hindenburg burn, killing a few dozen people, or saving it and letting Germany win WWII]]. He almost makes the wrong choice, sending him into a temporary HeroicBSOD.
5th Jan '17 4:34:30 AM WikiGuardianAngel
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* Weighing the needs of the many is intrinsic to any government decision and policy, where hard decisions have to be made to ensure the greatest prosperity and well being of society. A most direct example of this is in hostage scenarios. Acceding to the demands of the hostage takers, and potentially endangering more people in the future because the criminals emboldened by the success may attempt more hostage takings and are more capable from having acquired the resources. Refusing and maybe [[TakeAThirdOption Taking A Third Option]] in trying to attack the hostage takers is likely to get at least some of the hostages killed. Considering the needs of the many is also present in scenarios less directly involved with life and death, like where to distribute national funds to impact the most people.

to:

* The Trolley Problem is a though experiment which forces the subject to choose between actively sacrificing one for the many or allowing the many to die through inaction. The thought experiment involves a scenario where a runaway train is barreling down a track towards a group of five people, and a fork between the train and the group to another track on which is one person. The people are immobilized in some way so they are unable to escape. The subject has to decide whether to toggle the switch that will move the train onto the other track, and kill the person on it. A common variation of this is to make the subject decide whether to personally murder by pushing someone into the path of the oncoming train, assuming the person has enough mass to stop it, to save a group of people ahead. This variation is intended to invoke more personal involvement, and experimentally less people are willing to take this option in this variation. The thought experiment is used in psychological studies to gauge the degree of utilitarian thinking in the test subject.
* Weighing the needs of the many is intrinsic to any government decision and policy, where hard decisions have to be made to ensure the greatest prosperity and well being of society. A most direct example of this is in hostage scenarios. Acceding to the demands of the hostage takers, and potentially endangering more people in the future because the criminals emboldened by the success may attempt more hostage takings and are more capable from having acquired the resources. Refusing will result in the death of all hostages, and maybe [[TakeAThirdOption Taking A Third Option]] in trying to attack the hostage takers is likely to get at least some of the hostages hostages, and maybe some of the police, killed. Considering the needs of the many is also present in scenarios less directly involved with life and death, like where such as whether to distribute national funds cut the funding to impact the senior citizen assistance programs, and therefore depriving the most people.vulnerable senior citizens of health and financial aid, to fund infrastructure projects that will aid a regional economy.
5th Jan '17 4:02:45 AM WikiGuardianAngel
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* This is the basic principle behind [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism Utilitarianism]].
* It is also the stance that Collectivism takes, holding that the interests of the community and society should supersede that of the individual, as the individual is part of a greater community of individuals whom they affect for better or worse with their actions.

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* This is the basic principle behind [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism Utilitarianism]].
Utilitarian ethical philosophy]].
* It Weighing the needs of the many is intrinsic to any government decision and policy, where hard decisions have to be made to ensure the greatest prosperity and well being of society. A most direct example of this is in hostage scenarios. Acceding to the demands of the hostage takers, and potentially endangering more people in the future because the criminals emboldened by the success may attempt more hostage takings and are more capable from having acquired the resources. Refusing and maybe [[TakeAThirdOption Taking A Third Option]] in trying to attack the hostage takers is likely to get at least some of the hostages killed. Considering the needs of the many is also the stance that Collectivism takes, holding that the interests of the community and society should supersede that of the individual, as the individual is part of a greater community of individuals whom they affect for better or worse present in scenarios less directly involved with their actions.life and death, like where to distribute national funds to impact the most people.
1st Dec '16 8:20:26 PM ChaoticNovelist
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Compare HeroicSacrifice, ColdEquation and SadisticChoice. If some member of a group needs to make the sacrifice, the question of WhoWillBellTheCat arises. If someone is being asked to sacrifice ''themselves'', this is likely to be WhatIsOneMansLifeInComparison. If a group of heroes argue over who gets to make the sacrifice, then you have MoreHeroThanYou. For the more morally gray versions, compare UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans, TotalitarianUtilitarian and AMillionIsAStatistic. A catchphrase of every other HiveMind.

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Compare HeroicSacrifice, ColdEquation and SadisticChoice. If some member of a group needs to make the sacrifice, the question of WhoWillBellTheCat arises. If someone is being asked to sacrifice ''themselves'', this is likely to be WhatIsOneMansLifeInComparison. If a group of heroes argue over who gets to make the sacrifice, then you have MoreHeroThanYou.MoreHeroThanThou or MoreExpendableThanYou. For the more morally gray versions, compare UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans, TotalitarianUtilitarian and AMillionIsAStatistic. A catchphrase of every other HiveMind.
1st Dec '16 8:10:17 PM ChaoticNovelist
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Of course, it isn't always TheHero who has to make the decision. Monarchs or generals may be forced to sacrifice large numbers of troops or citizens ForTheGreaterGood (former trope name). {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s and {{Knight Templar}}s often use this as a justification for their actions; they're more than willing to kill dozens if they think it will save thousands.

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Of course, it isn't always TheHero who has to make the decision. Monarchs or generals may be forced to sacrifice large numbers of troops or citizens ForTheGreaterGood "for the Greater Good" (former trope name). {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s and {{Knight Templar}}s often use this as a justification for their actions; they're more than willing to kill dozens if they think it will save thousands.



Keep in mind, "many" and "few" are relative. The most important part is just that someone has to be sacrificed to save significantly more. And although it is an old concept, the phrase itself is much NewerThanTheyThink, the TropeNamer being ''[[Film/StarTrekIITheWrathOfKhan The Wrath of Khan]]''.

Compare HeroicSacrifice, ColdEquation and SadisticChoice. If some member of a group needs to make the sacrifice, the question of WhoWillBellTheCat arises. If the protagonist is being asked to sacrifice ''themselves'', this is likely to be WhatIsOneMansLifeInComparison For the more morally gray versions, compare UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans, TotalitarianUtilitarian and AMillionIsAStatistic. A catchphrase of every other HiveMind.

to:

Keep in mind, "many" and "few" are relative. The most important part is just that someone has to be sacrificed to save significantly more. And although Although it is an old concept, the phrase itself is much NewerThanTheyThink, the TropeNamer being ''[[Film/StarTrekIITheWrathOfKhan The Wrath of Khan]]''.

Compare HeroicSacrifice, ColdEquation and SadisticChoice. If some member of a group needs to make the sacrifice, the question of WhoWillBellTheCat arises. If the protagonist someone is being asked to sacrifice ''themselves'', this is likely to be WhatIsOneMansLifeInComparison WhatIsOneMansLifeInComparison. If a group of heroes argue over who gets to make the sacrifice, then you have MoreHeroThanYou. For the more morally gray versions, compare UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans, TotalitarianUtilitarian and AMillionIsAStatistic. A catchphrase of every other HiveMind.



* A recurring theme in many of Creator/GenUrobuchi's works, often brutally deconstructed:

to:

* A recurring theme in many of Creator/GenUrobuchi's works, often brutally deconstructed:works:



*** [[spoiler:However, according to Touma, he exposes the irony on the Sibyl System's beliefs, as their members highly value their own unique individuality over the average citizen as they believe that [[AboveGoodAndEvil they are morally, mentally, and philosophically superior to everyone else]], and thus they are more fit to rule society. Yet, for their value of uniqueness, they don't see the irony of being HiveMind, thus deconstructing this trope showing the irony that the Sibyl System only benefits their members and not everyone else]].

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*** [[spoiler:However, according to Touma, he exposes the irony on the Sibyl System's beliefs, as their members highly value their own unique individuality over the average citizen as they believe that [[AboveGoodAndEvil they are morally, mentally, and philosophically superior to everyone else]], and thus they are more fit to rule society. Yet, for their value of uniqueness, they don't see the irony of being HiveMind, thus deconstructing this trope showing the irony that the Sibyl System only benefits their members and not everyone else]].



* [[LightNovel/BlackBullet Rentaro Satomi]]'s ForHappiness ethics have an interesting variation of "The happiness for others outweigh the happiness of myself." [[spoiler:Apparently, [[DeconstructedTrope this bites him in the ass]] when he was accused of murder in volumes 5 and 6.]]
* ''Manga/{{Saiyuki}}'' deliberately [[DeconstructedTrope beats this trope into the ground]], as its main cast being [[AntiHero selfish jerks]] is essential for their success, because this way they have a chance to survive their mission.

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* [[LightNovel/BlackBullet ''LightNovel/BlackBullet'': Rentaro Satomi]]'s Satomi's ForHappiness ethics have an interesting variation of "The happiness for others outweigh the happiness of myself." [[spoiler:Apparently, [[DeconstructedTrope this bites him in the ass]] ass when he was accused of murder in volumes 5 and 6.]]
* ''Manga/{{Saiyuki}}'' deliberately [[DeconstructedTrope beats defies this trope into the ground]], as its main cast being [[AntiHero [[{{jerkass}} selfish jerks]] is essential for their success, because this way they have a chance to survive their mission.



* [[{{Deconstruction}} Deconstructed]] in ''Literature/AtlasShrugged'', due to Creator/AynRand's AuthorTract. Examples of altruistic ideals turning into spectacular failures abound, but a special mention goes to the 20th Century Motor Company of Starnesville. After the company passed from the founder to his children and they reorganized the plant to a pay system of "from each according to ability, to each according to need," it turned into a nightmare train wreck for the employees before collapsing in on itself. This inspired [[spoiler:John Galt]] to abandon his revolutionary electro-static motor and [[spoiler:begin his quest to spur "the men of the mind" all over the world to strike and bring the end of the world ruled by altruist, Collectivist morality.]]

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* [[{{Deconstruction}} Deconstructed]] in ''Literature/AtlasShrugged'', ''Literature/AtlasShrugged'': ridicules this trope due to Creator/AynRand's AuthorTract. Examples of altruistic ideals turning into spectacular failures abound, but a special mention goes to the 20th Century Motor Company of Starnesville. After the company passed from the founder to his children and they reorganized the plant to a pay system of "from each according to ability, to each according to need," it turned into a nightmare train wreck for the employees before collapsing in on itself. This inspired [[spoiler:John Galt]] to abandon his revolutionary electro-static motor and [[spoiler:begin his quest to spur "the men of the mind" all over the world to strike and bring the end of the world ruled by altruist, Collectivist morality.]]



* Deconstructed by implication in ''Webcomic/{{Paranatural}}''. The spirit Forge goes on a rant against this sort of behavior, making it clear he had this mindset in the past.

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* Deconstructed by implication in ''Webcomic/{{Paranatural}}''. ''Webcomic/{{Paranatural}}'': The spirit Forge goes on a rant against this sort of behavior, making it clear he had this mindset in the past.
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