History Main / SubbingVersusDubbing

31st May '16 8:43:34 AM XanderVJ
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One of the oldest {{Internet Backdraft}}s for fans of imported foreign films and TV shows -- especially {{anime}} fans -- is the argument over whether to subtitle the program or dub it into the audience's native language.

to:

One of the oldest {{Internet Backdraft}}s for fans of imported foreign films and TV shows -- in America, especially {{anime}} fans -- is the argument over whether to subtitle the program or dub it into the audience's native language.
18th May '16 2:38:31 PM Reymma
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The dire straits of the anime industry in North America have forced most licensors to no longer produce dub tracks for titles that are perceived to sell to a niche audience due to several companies taking heavy losses on titles like this after finding that the existence of a dub track is not enough of a sales boost to cover the cost of commissioning one (the textbook examples are Creator/{{Geneon}} and Creator/{{ADV|Films}}; Geneon shut down completely, and ADV had to reorganize itself into smaller companies). This has managed to light the fire in the sub vs. dub wars all over again, though nowadays it is dub fans that are seeing a lack of content. This has led to a [[HypocriticalHumor strange reversal in the old debate]] – "hardcore" dub fans (hardly a majority, but loud nonetheless) insist that all shows should have a dub or they will not support them; sub fans – and more casual dub fans – will tell them to either accept that shows with less appeal will get sub-only releases or they aren't going to be licensed at all.

to:

The dire straits of the anime industry in North America have forced most licensors to no longer produce dub tracks for titles that are perceived to sell to a niche audience due to several companies taking heavy losses on titles like this after finding that the existence of a dub track is not enough of a sales boost to cover the cost of commissioning one (the textbook examples are Creator/{{Geneon}} and Creator/{{ADV|Films}}; Geneon shut down completely, and ADV had to reorganize itself into smaller companies). This has managed to light the fire in the sub vs. dub wars all over again, though nowadays it is dub fans that are seeing a lack of content. This has led to a [[HypocriticalHumor [[{{Irony}} strange reversal in the old debate]] – "hardcore" dub fans (hardly a majority, but loud nonetheless) insist that all shows should have a dub or they will not support them; sub fans – and more casual dub fans – will tell them to either accept that shows with less appeal will get sub-only releases or they aren't going to be licensed at all.
10th Apr '16 9:11:30 PM Josef5678
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Of course, some fans prefer to stay out of the sub vs. dub debate altogether by choosing to just watch the raw production – with the original-language audio and without the subtitles. But since this requires complete fluency in the other language, it isn't an option for 99% of whatever fandom. Then again, some fans watch raw productions because [[TheyJustDidntCare they just don't care]] if they can or can't understand what's being said.

to:

Of course, some fans prefer to stay out of the sub vs. dub debate altogether by choosing to just watch the raw production – with the original-language audio and without the subtitles. But since this requires complete fluency in the other language, it isn't an option for 99% of whatever fandom. Then again, some fans watch raw productions because [[TheyJustDidntCare they just don't care]] care if they can or can't understand what's being said.
10th Apr '16 5:42:24 PM DENelson83
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Of course, some fans prefer to stay out of the sub vs. dub debate altogether by choosing to just watch the raw production – with the original-language audio and without the subtitles. But since this requires complete fluency in the other language, it isn't an option for 99% of whatever fandom.

to:

Of course, some fans prefer to stay out of the sub vs. dub debate altogether by choosing to just watch the raw production – with the original-language audio and without the subtitles. But since this requires complete fluency in the other language, it isn't an option for 99% of whatever fandom. Then again, some fans watch raw productions because [[TheyJustDidntCare they just don't care]] if they can or can't understand what's being said.
22nd Feb '16 4:42:20 AM PF
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On the other hand, dubbing a program means that the audience doesn't have to read the dialogue while watching the show. While this is frequently used as an insult to the intelligence of dub-watchers, subtitlers will often trim dialogue due to subtitle line-length restrictions (this is not just a translation issue; turn on the native language subtitles for a DVD, and you'll probably see subtitle abbreviation, spanning from noticeable to a horrendously significant degree. If an example is necessary, try ''Film/RealGenius''). Additionally, bored fansubbers will occasionally decide to [[SpiceUpTheSubtitles alter the script to make it more "adult"]], resulting in the depressingly common phenomenon of a show that is ridiculously, blatantly {{kodomomuke}} ([[YouAreTheTranslatedForeignWord i.e., "for kids"]]) containing jarringly out-of-place sex jokes and profanity in its fansubs.[[note]] And then the FanDumb who don't know any better genuinely believe that that's the way the show is "supposed" to be, and go berserk when said show gets a more faithful official translation that doesn't have all the profanity, starting up this tired debate all over again.[[/note]]

to:

On the other hand, dubbing a program means that the audience doesn't have to read the dialogue while watching the show. While this is frequently used as an insult to the intelligence of dub-watchers, dub watchers, subtitlers will often trim dialogue due to subtitle line-length restrictions (this is not just a translation issue; turn on the native language subtitles for a DVD, and you'll probably see subtitle abbreviation, spanning from noticeable to a horrendously significant degree. If an example is necessary, try ''Film/RealGenius''). Additionally, bored fansubbers will occasionally decide to [[SpiceUpTheSubtitles alter the script to make it more "adult"]], resulting in the depressingly common phenomenon of a show that is ridiculously, blatantly {{kodomomuke}} ([[YouAreTheTranslatedForeignWord i.e., "for kids"]]) containing jarringly out-of-place sex jokes and profanity in its fansubs.[[note]] And then the FanDumb This becomes a problem when there are people who don't know any better genuinely believe that that's this is the way the show is "supposed" to be, and go berserk when said show gets a more faithful official translation that doesn't have all the profanity, starting up this tired debate all over again.profanity.[[/note]]
4th Feb '16 11:45:05 AM Josef5678
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Interesting to note though is that French productions (such as LiveActionTV/FortBoyard) still get a dub in The Netherlands.

to:

Interesting to note though is that French productions (such as LiveActionTV/FortBoyard) Series/FortBoyard) still get a dub in The Netherlands.
3rd Feb '16 1:20:01 AM BDNeon
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Subtitling has many advantages: It allows for an extremely accurate translation, including quirks of the original language that [[MeaningfulName play a role in the plot]], while allowing you to hear the original actors' performances. It renders the show accessible to the deaf or hard of hearing. People [[BilingualBonus bilingual in or learning the original language will be able to benefit as well]], since they can enjoy at least parts of the film/TV show in the original while their friends can still know what's going on.[[note]] Assuming the subtitles are actually a good translation; TranslationTrainWreck and BlindIdiotTranslation can happen even with translations supposedly done by professionals. Then there are Dubtitles, [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin which are subtitles of the sometimes-heavily-adapted dubbed dialogue rather than a direct translation]], which are highly frowned-upon by fans for obvious reasons.[[/note]]

to:

Subtitling has many advantages: It allows for an extremely accurate translation, including quirks of the original language that [[MeaningfulName play a role in the plot]], while allowing you to hear the original actors' performances. It renders the show accessible to the deaf or hard of hearing. People [[BilingualBonus bilingual in or learning the original language will be able to benefit as well]], since they can enjoy at least parts of the film/TV show in the original while their friends can still know what's going on.[[note]] Assuming the subtitles are actually a good translation; TranslationTrainWreck and BlindIdiotTranslation can happen even with translations supposedly done by professionals. Then there are Dubtitles, [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin which are subtitles of the sometimes-heavily-adapted dubbed dialogue rather than a direct translation]], which are highly frowned-upon by fans for obvious reasons.[[/note]]
[[/note]] Some fansubbers even include notes in the subtitles that help explain certain cultural references or jokes that might not otherwise be properly understood by a non-native audience.
16th Jan '16 2:27:07 AM Anddrix
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On the other hand, dubbing a program means that the audience doesn't have to read the dialogue while watching the show. [[ViewersAreMorons While this is frequently used as an insult to the intelligence of dub-watchers]], subtitlers will often trim dialogue due to subtitle line-length restrictions (this is not just a translation issue; turn on the native language subtitles for a DVD, and you'll probably see subtitle abbreviation, spanning from noticeable to a horrendously significant degree. If an example is necessary, try ''Film/RealGenius''). Additionally, bored fansubbers will occasionally decide to [[SpiceUpTheSubtitles alter the script to make it more "adult"]], resulting in the depressingly common phenomenon of a show that is ridiculously, blatantly {{kodomomuke}} ([[YouAreTheTranslatedForeignWord i.e., "for kids"]]) containing jarringly out-of-place sex jokes and profanity in its fansubs.[[note]] And then the FanDumb who don't know any better genuinely believe that that's the way the show is "supposed" to be, and go berserk when said show gets a more faithful official translation that doesn't have all the profanity, starting up this tired debate all over again.[[/note]]

to:

On the other hand, dubbing a program means that the audience doesn't have to read the dialogue while watching the show. [[ViewersAreMorons While this is frequently used as an insult to the intelligence of dub-watchers]], dub-watchers, subtitlers will often trim dialogue due to subtitle line-length restrictions (this is not just a translation issue; turn on the native language subtitles for a DVD, and you'll probably see subtitle abbreviation, spanning from noticeable to a horrendously significant degree. If an example is necessary, try ''Film/RealGenius''). Additionally, bored fansubbers will occasionally decide to [[SpiceUpTheSubtitles alter the script to make it more "adult"]], resulting in the depressingly common phenomenon of a show that is ridiculously, blatantly {{kodomomuke}} ([[YouAreTheTranslatedForeignWord i.e., "for kids"]]) containing jarringly out-of-place sex jokes and profanity in its fansubs.[[note]] And then the FanDumb who don't know any better genuinely believe that that's the way the show is "supposed" to be, and go berserk when said show gets a more faithful official translation that doesn't have all the profanity, starting up this tired debate all over again.[[/note]]
16th Sep '15 10:09:25 PM DeisTheAlcano
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->''"I'm watching this in America, speak dubbed. Oh... no, no, not dubbed, speak subtitled."''
-->-- '''[[WebVideo/TheCinemaSnob The Snob]]''', reviewing the Italian movie ''Little Rita of the West''



Occasionally, a dub may even have [[SuperlativeDubbing better actors, performances]], and/or [[{{Woolseyism}} writing]] than the original, though of course this is highly subjective. Commercially, dubs also have a much wider actual reach despite being more expensive to produce (and a non-dubbed title naturally has a smaller reach), simply because dubs have far more venues open to them. A dub can often make or break a show's success.[[note]] The reason for this is that most media gatekeepers – especially television – refuse any media that is not in the local language. This extends to many official internet portals (particularly Netflix, but also Hulu) as well, where even ''if'' multiple languages are available (and they often are), viewers of the dubbed version typically outnumber viewers of the subtitled original… at least for cartoons.[[/note]]

to:

Occasionally, a dub may even have [[SuperlativeDubbing better actors, performances]], and/or [[{{Woolseyism}} writing]] than the original, though of course this is highly subjective. Commercially, dubs also have a much wider actual reach despite being more expensive to produce (and a non-dubbed title naturally has a smaller reach), simply because dubs have far more venues open to them. A dub can often make or break a show's success.[[note]] The reason for this is that most media gatekeepers – especially television – refuse any media that is not in the local language. This extends to many official internet portals (particularly Netflix, but also Hulu) as well, where even ''if'' multiple languages are available (and they often are), viewers of the dubbed version typically outnumber viewers of the subtitled original… original... at least for cartoons.[[/note]]



Of course, some fans prefer to stay out of the sub vs. dub debate altogether by choosing to just watch the raw production – with the original-language audio and without the subtitles. But since this requires complete fluency in the other language, it isn't an option for 99% of whatver fandom.

to:

Of course, some fans prefer to stay out of the sub vs. dub debate altogether by choosing to just watch the raw production – with the original-language audio and without the subtitles. But since this requires complete fluency in the other language, it isn't an option for 99% of whatver whatever fandom.
25th May '15 4:31:59 AM PF
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Subtitling has many advantages: It allows for an extremely accurate translation (including quirks of the original language that [[MeaningfulName play a role in the plot]]), while allowing you to hear the original actors' performances. It renders the show accessible to the deaf or hard of hearing. People [[BilingualBonus bilingual in or learning the original language will be able to benefit as well]], since they can enjoy at least parts of the film/TV show in the original while their friends can still know what's going on.[[note]] Assuming the subtitles are actually a good translation; TranslationTrainWreck and BlindIdiotTranslation can happen even with translations supposedly done by professionals. Then there are Dubtitles, [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin which are subtitles of the sometimes-heavily-adapted dubbed dialogue rather than a direct translation]], which are highly frowned-upon by fans for obvious reasons.[[/note]]

In addition, it's much less expensive than creating a new UsefulNotes/AutomatedDialogueRecording and dodges LipLock. Fans have been capable of producing serviceable {{Fansub}}s using home computers since the early 90's, and it's possible to subtitle a program with literally nothing more than a time-coded script. Hence, subtitled anime has a much wider potential reach simply because it is easier to produce and the licensor can turn a much larger profit on the smaller cost. Furthermore, in today's severely-damaged anime market, more and more titles only come out subtitled because it's flat-out the only way to release them to a profit in the first place.­­

to:

Subtitling has many advantages: It allows for an extremely accurate translation (including translation, including quirks of the original language that [[MeaningfulName play a role in the plot]]), plot]], while allowing you to hear the original actors' performances. It renders the show accessible to the deaf or hard of hearing. People [[BilingualBonus bilingual in or learning the original language will be able to benefit as well]], since they can enjoy at least parts of the film/TV show in the original while their friends can still know what's going on.[[note]] Assuming the subtitles are actually a good translation; TranslationTrainWreck and BlindIdiotTranslation can happen even with translations supposedly done by professionals. Then there are Dubtitles, [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin which are subtitles of the sometimes-heavily-adapted dubbed dialogue rather than a direct translation]], which are highly frowned-upon by fans for obvious reasons.[[/note]]

In addition, it's much less expensive than creating a new UsefulNotes/AutomatedDialogueRecording and dodges LipLock. Fans have been capable of producing serviceable {{Fansub}}s using home computers since the early 90's, '90s, and it's possible to subtitle a program with literally nothing more than a time-coded script. Hence, subtitled anime has a much wider potential reach simply because it is easier to produce and the licensor can turn a much larger profit on the smaller cost. Furthermore, in today's severely-damaged anime market, more and more titles only come out subtitled because it's flat-out the only way to release them to a profit in the first place.­­



Hearing actors speaking one's native language also allows the audience to catch subtle non-verbal parts of a performance, which many times is part of the "authentic" viewing experience the original was shooting for. Subtitles can cover up important parts of the image or switch too quickly to be read by everyone, especially if the show is extremely fast-paced, dialogue and/or text-heavy, or aimed at younger audiences – for example, go look up the subtitled ''[[Literature/TheTatamiGalaxy Tatami Galaxy]]''; many a YouTube commenter have complained that the subs are simply too fast to read... ''for the entire series''. In addition, subtitles – particularly for unofficial fansubs – are sometimes criticized for being ''too'' literal; a [[{{Woolseyism}} well-made dub can preserve the spirit of a joke or reference, even while replacing the actual line]]. Not to mention all the cultural references that are not understood outside the native country (phrases, puns, etc.) may wind up LostInTranslation if there's no explanation. This is much ''much'' easier to work around in a print work, because one can read at their own pace.

to:

Hearing actors speaking one's native language also allows the audience to catch subtle non-verbal parts of a performance, which many times is part of the "authentic" viewing experience the original was shooting for. Subtitles can cover up important parts of the image or switch too quickly to be read by everyone, especially if the show is extremely fast-paced, dialogue and/or text-heavy, or aimed at younger audiences – for example, go look up the subtitled ''[[Literature/TheTatamiGalaxy Tatami Galaxy]]''; many a YouTube Website/YouTube commenter have complained that the subs are simply too fast to read... ''for the entire series''. In addition, subtitles – particularly for unofficial fansubs – are sometimes criticized for being ''too'' literal; a [[{{Woolseyism}} well-made dub can preserve the spirit of a joke or reference, even while replacing the actual line]]. Not to mention all the cultural references that are not understood outside the native country (phrases, puns, etc.) may wind up LostInTranslation if there's no explanation. This is much ''much'' easier to work around in a print work, because one can read at their own pace.



Although the debate is very heated for fans of foreign independent/art films, it's the American anime fan community that's made this debate infamous. This is because, in the days before DVD made multiple audio streams standard, companies releasing translated anime could only release either a subtitled or a dubbed version of a program on a single VHS tape. Because the market for dubbed anime was considerably larger than that for subtitled releases[[note]] People working in the North American industry at the time have confirmed that dubs outsold subs by an average of about 9:1[[/note]], sub tapes often cost much more than (sometimes twice as much as) an equivalent dub tape – if the company ever released a subtitled version to begin with.

to:

Although the debate is very heated for fans of foreign independent/art films, it's the American anime fan community that's made this debate infamous. This is because, in the days before DVD made multiple audio streams standard, companies releasing translated anime could only release either a subtitled or a dubbed version of a program on a single VHS tape. Because the market for dubbed anime was considerably larger than that for subtitled releases[[note]] People releases,[[note]]People working in the North American industry at the time have confirmed that dubs outsold subs by an average of about 9:1[[/note]], 9:1[[/note]] sub tapes often cost much more than (sometimes twice as much as) an equivalent dub tape – if the company ever released a subtitled version to begin with.



Nevertheless, pure aesthetic concerns, along with backlash against the airing of dubbed shows on analog cable TV, have kept the Sub vs. Dub debate simmering in the background of anime fandom. Its most prevalent present-day descendant replaces "subbing" with {{fansub}}s and "dubbing" with officially-translated subtitles. Under the frame of the new debate, fansubs take the role of the culturally-pure/faithful version, with official subs being the [[CulturalTranslation Culturally-Translated]] version watered-down for mass audiences.

One argument frequently made in favor of subs is from an artistic standpoint: since the director chose and directed the actors in the original work, those actors' performances are a vital part of it and to watch it without them is to watch it through means other than what the artist intended. The rebuttal for this argument would be that the director also intended for the dialogue to be experienced in the viewer's native language, and for them to be able to focus their attention on the film's visuals rather than having to divide it between the onscreen imagery and the subtitles. Also worth noting is that, for English dubs of anime and video games in particular, the original creators often provide some input to the dubbing studio, ranging from a general seal of approval to exhaustively editing the dub script to actually being physically present in the studio. Directors who have taken on this kind of involvement in dubs of their work include Creator/HayaoMiyazaki, Creator/MamoruOshii, Creator/HideakiAnno, Creator/ShinichiWatanabe, Creator/ShinichiroWatanabe, Creator/KazuyaTsurumaki, [[Anime/TekkonKinkreet Michael Arias]], and recently Creator/NaokoTakeuchi.

to:

Nevertheless, pure aesthetic concerns, along with backlash against the airing of dubbed shows on analog cable TV, have kept the Sub vs. Dub debate simmering in the background of anime fandom. Its most prevalent present-day descendant replaces "subbing" with {{fansub}}s and "dubbing" with officially-translated subtitles. Under the frame of the new debate, fansubs take the role of the culturally-pure/faithful version, with official subs being the [[CulturalTranslation Culturally-Translated]] culturally translated]] version watered-down for mass audiences.

One argument frequently made in favor of subs is from an artistic standpoint: since the director chose and directed the actors in the original work, those actors' performances are a vital part of it and to watch it without them is to watch it through means other than what the artist intended. The rebuttal for this argument would be that the director also intended for the dialogue to be experienced in the viewer's native language, and for them to be able to focus their attention on the film's visuals rather than having to divide it between the onscreen imagery and the subtitles. Also worth noting is that, for English dubs of anime and video games in particular, the original creators creator(s) often provide some input to the dubbing studio, ranging from a general seal of approval to exhaustively editing the dub script to actually being physically present in the studio. Directors who have taken on this kind of involvement in dubs of their work include Creator/HayaoMiyazaki, Hayao Miyazaki, Creator/MamoruOshii, Creator/HideakiAnno, Creator/ShinichiWatanabe, Creator/ShinichiroWatanabe, Creator/KazuyaTsurumaki, [[Anime/TekkonKinkreet Michael Arias]], and recently Creator/NaokoTakeuchi.



More recently, the dire straits of the anime industry in North America have forced most licensors to no longer produce dub tracks for titles that are perceived to sell to a niche audience due to several companies taking heavy losses on titles like this after finding that the existence of a dub track is not enough of a sales boost to cover the cost of commissioning one (the textbook examples are Creator/{{Geneon}} and Creator/{{ADV|Films}}; Geneon shut down completely, and ADV had to reorganize itself into smaller companies). This has managed to light the fire in the sub vs. dub wars all over again, though nowadays it is dub fans that are seeing a lack of content. This has led to a [[HypocriticalHumor strange reversal in the old debate]] – "hardcore" dub fans (hardly a majority, but loud nonetheless) insist that all shows should have a dub or they will not support them; sub fans – and more casual dub fans – will tell them to either accept that shows with less appeal will get sub-only releases or they aren't going to be licensed at all.

Another interesting thing to note is that because a lot of fans from English- and occasionally Spanish-speaking countries engage in the wars, if one were to look at other dubs that were produced, English and Latin-Spanish speakers are actually ''better off'' than most of the world. Heck, even English speakers have it better than some of the dubs that air on Latin American TV, even though plenty of those New-World Spanish dubs are very well done. The awful Swedish dub of ''Manga/{{Cyborg 009}}'' is often used to illustrate this point, as the entire cast was played by '''one man''', half the characters sound exactly the same (which is ''incredibly'' awkward since other dubbers of ''Cyborg 009'' at ''least'' think a female should be playing the female characters) and the translation sounds like it was done by someone who had a very elementary-level understanding of the Swedish language. And this isn't just limited to anime; there exist extremely low-budget Spanish dubs of old shows produced in the USA or Canada where the characters compensate for the movement tailored to English by speaking [[MotorMouth extremely quickly]] or pausing mid-sentence. Of course, that doesn't also mean it can't work the other way. Walt Disney himself is said to have liked the 1959 Mexican Spanish dub of ''Disney/SleepingBeauty'' ''better'' than the original English version. This also has gotten a lot better in recent years; but you can still spot some low-budget dubs.

While this article was written with a western-centric point of view, do note that this debate can occur in Japan too – [[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/02/22/japanese-gamers-split-on-subtitles-vs-dubs-for-western-games/1#c25688774 just]] [[http://kotaku.com/5415904/gamers-not-happy-with-japanese-modern-warfare-2 ask]] Japanese ''VideoGame/ModernWarfare 2'' players, or [[http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Beast_Wars_%28cartoon%29#Japan ask]] Japanese ''WesternAnimation/BeastWars'' fans. And to further confound the wars, some people who understand Japanese better point out that Japan has just as many "bad actors" as any other country does – it's something of a truism that the more you understand a language, the more you spot its mediocre or poor acting. Some Japanese viewers have contended that Creator/JohnnyYongBosch's performance in ''Anime/CodeGeass'' sounded more natural; whereas Creator/JunFukuyama's sounded more acted. When something sounds completely unfamiliar and viewers don't understand it, they tend to ignore what native speakers consider an average performance and they don't entirely get what might be a BlindIdiotTranslation.[[note]] It doesn't help either side that the acting styles for Japanese and English voice acting come from completely different sources. Japanese voice acting traces its roots directly to Kabuki, where dialogue and delivery are extremely stylized to the point that non-connoisseurs would consider it overacting. English voice-acting on the other hand traces its roots to Radio, where performance (though it could be overacted) was never uniformly stylized and delivery tended toward the more natural.[[/note]]

Funnily enough, this debate doesn't really arise in non-English speaking countries when it comes to English-language films. Mostly because of the omnipresence of Hollywood, one can easily assume that at least half the movies someone from UsefulNotes/{{Germany}}, UsefulNotes/{{Russia}}, UsefulNotes/{{France}}, UsefulNotes/{{Italy}}, or UsefulNotes/{{Brazil}} will see in a year are English-language movies. Thus, many countries have a well-entrenched, very active dubbing industry with recognizable voice actors. In most cases, one dubber is paired with one actor for the duration of the actor's career. In these countries, due to enormous exposure to it, dubbing is seen much more positively than in the anime community.

to:

More recently, the The dire straits of the anime industry in North America have forced most licensors to no longer produce dub tracks for titles that are perceived to sell to a niche audience due to several companies taking heavy losses on titles like this after finding that the existence of a dub track is not enough of a sales boost to cover the cost of commissioning one (the textbook examples are Creator/{{Geneon}} and Creator/{{ADV|Films}}; Geneon shut down completely, and ADV had to reorganize itself into smaller companies). This has managed to light the fire in the sub vs. dub wars all over again, though nowadays it is dub fans that are seeing a lack of content. This has led to a [[HypocriticalHumor strange reversal in the old debate]] – "hardcore" dub fans (hardly a majority, but loud nonetheless) insist that all shows should have a dub or they will not support them; sub fans – and more casual dub fans – will tell them to either accept that shows with less appeal will get sub-only releases or they aren't going to be licensed at all.

Another interesting thing to note is that because a lot of fans from English- English and occasionally Spanish-speaking countries engage in the wars, if one were to look at other dubs that were produced, English and Latin-Spanish speakers are actually ''better off'' than most of the world. Heck, even English speakers have it better than some of the dubs that air on Latin American TV, even though plenty of those New-World Spanish dubs are very well done. The awful Swedish dub of ''Manga/{{Cyborg 009}}'' is often used to illustrate this point, as the entire cast was played by '''one man''', half the characters sound exactly the same (which is ''incredibly'' awkward since other dubbers of ''Cyborg 009'' at ''least'' think a female should be playing the female characters) and the translation sounds like it was done by someone who had a very elementary-level understanding of the Swedish language. And this isn't just limited to anime; there exist extremely low-budget Spanish dubs of old shows produced in the USA or Canada where the characters compensate for the movement tailored to English by speaking [[MotorMouth extremely quickly]] or pausing mid-sentence. Of course, that doesn't also mean it can't work the other way. Walt Disney himself is said to have liked the 1959 Mexican Spanish dub of ''Disney/SleepingBeauty'' ''better'' than the original English version. This also has gotten a lot better in recent years; but you can still spot some low-budget dubs.

While this article was written with a western-centric Western-centric point of view, do note that this debate can occur in Japan too – [[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/02/22/japanese-gamers-split-on-subtitles-vs-dubs-for-western-games/1#c25688774 just]] [[http://kotaku.com/5415904/gamers-not-happy-with-japanese-modern-warfare-2 ask]] Japanese ''VideoGame/ModernWarfare 2'' players, or [[http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Beast_Wars_%28cartoon%29#Japan ask]] Japanese ''WesternAnimation/BeastWars'' fans. And to further confound the wars, some people who understand Japanese better point out that Japan has just as many "bad actors" as any other country does – it's something of a truism that the more you understand a language, the more you spot its mediocre or poor acting. Some Japanese viewers have contended that Creator/JohnnyYongBosch's performance in ''Anime/CodeGeass'' sounded more natural; whereas Creator/JunFukuyama's sounded more acted. When something sounds completely unfamiliar and viewers don't understand it, they tend to ignore what native speakers consider an average performance and they don't entirely get what might be a BlindIdiotTranslation.[[note]] It doesn't help either side that the acting styles for Japanese and English voice acting come from completely different sources. Japanese voice acting traces its roots directly to Kabuki, where dialogue and delivery are extremely stylized to the point that non-connoisseurs would consider it overacting. English voice-acting on the other hand traces its roots to Radio, where performance (though it could be overacted) was never uniformly stylized and delivery tended toward the more natural.[[/note]]

Funnily enough, this debate doesn't really arise in non-English speaking countries when it comes to English-language English language films. Mostly because of the omnipresence of Hollywood, one can easily assume that at least half the movies someone from UsefulNotes/{{Germany}}, UsefulNotes/{{Russia}}, UsefulNotes/{{France}}, UsefulNotes/{{Italy}}, or UsefulNotes/{{Brazil}} will see in a year are English-language movies. Thus, many countries have a well-entrenched, very active dubbing industry with recognizable voice actors. In most cases, one dubber is paired with one actor for the duration of the actor's career. In these countries, due to enormous exposure to it, dubbing is seen much more positively than in the anime community.



Finally, it should be noted that for animation – including anime – the phrase "subbed vs. dubbed", or just "sub vs. dub", is [[YouKeepUsingThatWord a little misleading]] since it suggests that the original ''wasn't'' dubbed. Dubbing in a production context refers to any process of laying audio (particularly voices) over video. Music/{{Vocaloid}}s (possibly) excepted. This is quite obviously always the case for any sort of animation, regardless of what language the dubbing happens to be in, original included.[[labelnote:Exception]] The ONE big exception to this is American animation, which typically uses a process known as "pre-lay" where the dialogue is recorded first and the animation is then created to fit it. And even in American cartoons, actors may be called back in after the animation is complete [[LoopingLines to record or rerecord lines]], which is (obviously) dubbing. In Japan, with the notable exception of ''Manga/{{Akira}}'', animation dialogue is ALWAYS dubbed.[[/labelnote]] A more accurate term for the sort of dubbing that comes up in this debate, therefore, should be "re-dubbing". This is sometimes – and should more often be – brought up by dub (or rather, re-dub) fans as a counter-point to sub fans' arguments that all dubs are inherently flawed.

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Finally, it should be noted that for animation – including anime – the phrase "subbed vs. dubbed", or just "sub vs. dub", is [[YouKeepUsingThatWord a little misleading]] since it suggests that the original ''wasn't'' dubbed. Dubbing in a production context refers to any process of laying audio (particularly voices) audio, particularly voices, over video. Music/{{Vocaloid}}s (possibly) excepted. This is quite obviously always the case for any sort of animation, regardless of what language the dubbing happens to be in, original included.[[labelnote:Exception]] The ONE big exception to this is American animation, which typically uses a process known as "pre-lay" where the dialogue is recorded first and the animation is then created to fit it. And even in American cartoons, actors may be called back in after the animation is complete [[LoopingLines to record or rerecord lines]], which is (obviously) dubbing. In Japan, with the notable exception of ''Manga/{{Akira}}'', animation dialogue is ALWAYS dubbed.[[/labelnote]] A more accurate term for the sort of dubbing that comes up in this debate, therefore, should be "re-dubbing". This is sometimes – and should more often be – brought up by dub (or rather, re-dub) fans as a counter-point to sub fans' arguments that all dubs are inherently flawed.
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