History Main / ReliablyUnreliableGuns

19th Nov '17 4:32:21 PM thatother1dude
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** Parodied. To ease Marge's worries about his new gun, [[https://youtu.be/3oXFjhj76-I?t=36 Homer turns on the safety]], causing it to discharge into a photo of Marge. Then he notices that he actually turned the safety ''off'', turns it on, and causes ''another'' misfire. After a stunned second, he decides to gently set the gun on the table...and a couple of seconds later it goes off anyhow, ricocheting off several surfaces before striking a nearby knife which embeds itself in the picture, right between Marge's eyes. As Lisa says, "No offense Mom, but that '''was''' pretty cool."
** All the more {{egregious}}, since Homer's gun was clearly a revolver, and thus would require a long, forceful and deliberate trigger pull to fire any subsequent shots.

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** Parodied. To ease Marge's worries about his new gun, [[https://youtu.be/3oXFjhj76-I?t=36 Homer turns on the safety]], causing it to discharge into a photo of Marge. Then he notices that he actually turned the safety ''off'', turns it on, and causes ''another'' misfire. After a stunned second, he decides to gently set the gun on the table...and a couple of seconds later it goes off anyhow, ricocheting off several surfaces before striking a nearby knife which embeds itself in the picture, right between Marge's eyes. As Lisa says, "No offense Mom, but that '''was''' pretty cool."
** All the more {{egregious}}, since
" (Note that Homer's gun was clearly a revolver, and thus would [[GunsDoNotWorkThatWay which require a long, forceful and deliberate long trigger pull pulls to fire any subsequent shots.fire]] [[RuleOfFunny and don't even HAVE safeties]])
27th Oct '17 12:42:49 AM tommythegun
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* The Heckler & Koch G36 assault rifle, which is the standard rifle of the German Bundeswehr and is used by military and police forces in more than 40 other countries, is to be [[http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-the-rifle-held-in-all-the-wrong-places/a-18402772 phased out]] of Bundeswehr service by 2019, and will probably be phased out elsewhere, due to accuracy dropping significantly under sustained firing. The culprit in this case is under-engineering to save weight, which left a too thin free-floating barrel that droops when hot supported by polymers that soften when hot, which together can cause rounds to drop off target as much as 50 centimeters at a distance of 200 meters or 6 meters at 500 meters. This is a significant black eye for H&K, which had been long considered a highly reputable manufacturer that supplies arms in particular to top-tier special operations forces around the world. As of 2016, H&K is litigating the matter in court to lay the blame with the German government. Ironically, the likeliest candidate to replace the G36 in many roles is the HK416, Heckler & Koch's piston-driven version of the M16, a weapon design that is now nearly 60 years old.

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* The Heckler & Koch G36 assault rifle, which is the standard rifle of the German Bundeswehr and is used by military and police forces in more than 40 other countries, is to be [[http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-the-rifle-held-in-all-the-wrong-places/a-18402772 phased out]] of Bundeswehr service by 2019, and will probably be phased out elsewhere, due to accuracy dropping significantly under sustained firing. The culprit in this case is under-engineering to save weight, which left a too thin free-floating barrel that droops when hot supported by polymers that soften when hot, which together can cause rounds to drop off target as much as 50 centimeters at a distance of 200 meters or 6 meters at 500 meters. This is a significant black eye for H&K, which had been long considered a highly reputable manufacturer that supplies arms in particular to top-tier special operations forces around the world. As of 2016, H&K is litigating the matter in court to lay the blame with the German government. Ironically, the likeliest candidate to replace the G36 in many roles is the HK416, [=HK416=], Heckler & Koch's piston-driven version of the M16, a weapon design that is now nearly 60 years old.
27th Oct '17 12:41:18 AM tommythegun
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* The Heckler & Koch G36 assault rifle, which is the standard rifle of the German Bundeswehr and is used by military and police forces in more than 40 other countries, is as of 2015 to be [[http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-the-rifle-held-in-all-the-wrong-places/a-18402772 phased out]] of Bundeswehr service by 2019, and will probably be phased out elsewhere, due to accuracy dropping significantly under sustained firing. The culprit in this case is under-engineering to save weight, leaving a too thin free-floating barrel that droops when hot supported by polymers that soften when hot, and can cause rounds to drop off target as much as 50 centimeters at a distance of 200 meters or 6 meters at 500 meters. This is a significant black eye for H&K, which had been long considered a highly reputable manufacturer that supplies arms in particular to top-tier special operations forces around the world. As of 2016, H&K is litigating the matter in court to lay the blame with the German government.

to:

* The Heckler & Koch G36 assault rifle, which is the standard rifle of the German Bundeswehr and is used by military and police forces in more than 40 other countries, is as of 2015 to be [[http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-the-rifle-held-in-all-the-wrong-places/a-18402772 phased out]] of Bundeswehr service by 2019, and will probably be phased out elsewhere, due to accuracy dropping significantly under sustained firing. The culprit in this case is under-engineering to save weight, leaving which left a too thin free-floating barrel that droops when hot supported by polymers that soften when hot, and which together can cause rounds to drop off target as much as 50 centimeters at a distance of 200 meters or 6 meters at 500 meters. This is a significant black eye for H&K, which had been long considered a highly reputable manufacturer that supplies arms in particular to top-tier special operations forces around the world. As of 2016, H&K is litigating the matter in court to lay the blame with the German government. Ironically, the likeliest candidate to replace the G36 in many roles is the HK416, Heckler & Koch's piston-driven version of the M16, a weapon design that is now nearly 60 years old.



** Another major aspect of the whole scandal is that the officer filing the lawsuit claimed his incident occurred on January 5, 2017, two weeks before the gun was selected as the winner of the MHS trials... meaning that the pistol had passed the U.S. military's tests '''[[FailedASpotCheck without this flaw being discovered.]]''' A number of explanations have arisen, such as that the P320 being tested is a special model that comes with a manual safety, or that the government's drop-safe testing only requires a gun to drop on its muzzle and the sides (not the rear). But the most contentious explanation is that the P320 may have cheated its way through the trials. As a matter of fact, the other finalist in the MHS competition, Glock, had already attempted to file [[http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf a complaint]] (which was later denied) against the U.S. Army for how the trials were conducted, insinuating that the trials as designed had implicitly and unfairly favored SIG all along. With these drop-safe revelations now occurring, Glock may have a point...

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** Another major aspect of the whole scandal is that the officer filing the lawsuit claimed his incident occurred on January 5, 2017, two weeks before the gun was selected as the winner of the MHS trials... meaning that the pistol had passed the U.S. military's tests '''[[FailedASpotCheck without this flaw being discovered.]]''' A number of explanations have arisen, such as that the P320 being tested is a special model that comes with a manual safety, or that the government's drop-safe testing only requires a gun to drop on its muzzle and the sides (not the rear). But the most contentious explanation is that the P320 may have cheated its way through the trials. As a matter of fact, the other finalist in the MHS competition, Glock, had already attempted to file [[http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf a complaint]] (which was later denied) against the U.S. Army for how the trials were conducted, insinuating that the trials as designed had implicitly and unfairly favored SIG all along. With these drop-safe revelations now occurring, Glock may have a point...point. Ironically, some of SIG's marketing for the P320 has focused on its supposed safety advantage based on the fact that the pistol can be disassembled without dry-firing, which in particular distinguishes it from the ubiquitous Glock.



** On top of all this, the P320 was already being sued by Steyr [[http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/lawsuit-filed-sig-sauer-steyr-patent-infringement-new-army-p320/ for patent infringement]]. It's probably safe to say that the P320, which initially was set for a bright future, may end up with a reputation as controversial as the M9, [[{{Irony}} the very gun it was meant to replace.]]

to:

** On top of all this, the P320 SIG was already being sued by Steyr [[http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/lawsuit-filed-sig-sauer-steyr-patent-infringement-new-army-p320/ for alleged patent infringement]].infringement]] over the P320. It's probably safe to say that the P320, which initially was set for a bright future, may end up with a reputation as controversial as the M9, [[{{Irony}} the very gun it was meant to replace.]]
23rd Oct '17 4:23:31 PM StFan
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* ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' 2nd edition allowed the arquebus, a primitive rifle, but gave it a chance of backfiring and damaging the user every time it's fired. Partly as a measure of FantasyGunControl, but also TruthInTelevision.
** Also necessary for play balance. The arquebus only did 1d4 damage...unless you rolled a 4, in which case you got another 1d4 damage. With no upper limit. It was entirely within the rules (not very ''likely'', but within the rules) for a 1st level character to one-shot a maximum age Red Dragon with one of these things.
* Akin to the D&D example, firearms in TableTopGames/{{Pathfinder}} (which are fairly reliable for a fantasy setting) will damage themselves in some way on a critical failure, giving them the "broken" condition. It's still usable though, albeit slightly less effective and more dangerous to the one holding it -- a second critical failure renders it useless and injures the gunman.
* In TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}, some weapons have the "Gets Hot" rule. This means that the weapon may break, usually with lethal results, if a one is rolled. Justified in that the technology is poorly understood and that most factions [[WeHaveReserves have reserves.]]
** Although the archetypical Gets Hot, the plasma gun, isn't actually breaking. It's building up too much heat from being repeatedly fired and venting the super-heated gas to keep the gun from exploding. If you're a Space Marine, whose armor is deliberately made especially heat-resistant, you have a good chance to survive; not so much if you're a Guardsman.

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* ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' 2nd edition allowed the arquebus, a primitive rifle, but gave it a chance of backfiring and damaging the user every time it's fired. Partly as a measure of FantasyGunControl, but also TruthInTelevision.
**
TruthInTelevision. Also necessary for play balance. The arquebus only did 1d4 damage... unless you rolled a 4, in which case you got another 1d4 damage. With no upper limit. It was entirely within the rules (not very ''likely'', but within the rules) for a 1st level character to one-shot a maximum age Red Dragon with one of these things.
* Akin to the D&D ''D&D'' example, firearms in TableTopGames/{{Pathfinder}} ''TableTopGames/{{Pathfinder}}'' (which are fairly reliable for a fantasy setting) will damage themselves in some way on a critical failure, giving them the "broken" condition. It's still usable though, albeit slightly less effective and more dangerous to the one holding it -- a second critical failure renders it useless and injures the gunman.
* In TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}, some ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000'':
** Some
weapons have the "Gets Hot" rule. This means that the weapon may break, usually with lethal results, if a one is rolled. Justified in that the technology is poorly understood and that most factions [[WeHaveReserves have reserves.]]
**
]] Although the archetypical Gets Hot, the plasma gun, isn't actually breaking. It's building up too much heat from being repeatedly fired and venting the super-heated gas to keep the gun from exploding. If you're a Space Marine, whose armor is deliberately made especially heat-resistant, you have a good chance to survive; not so much if you're a Guardsman.



** A common fate in TabletopGame/SpaceHulk is for a Terminator's weapon to jam/overheat/explode, usually when surrounded by the swarm of enemies that required it to shoot full-auto in the first place.

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** A common fate in TabletopGame/SpaceHulk ''TabletopGame/SpaceHulk'' is for a Terminator's weapon to jam/overheat/explode, usually when surrounded by the swarm of enemies that required it to shoot full-auto in the first place.



* [[NerfBrand NERF]] blasters are mostly quite reliable, although the occasional blaster makes it through Quality Control with crippling defects. The [[RevolversAreJustBetter Maverick]] has developed a reputation for having the most problematic samples due to the strict tolerances required for a reliable cylinder-advancing mechanism.

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* [[NerfBrand NERF]] [[Toys/NERFBrand NERF]]:
** NERF
blasters are mostly quite reliable, although the occasional blaster makes it through Quality Control with crippling defects. The [[RevolversAreJustBetter Maverick]] has developed a reputation for having the most problematic samples due to the strict tolerances required for a reliable cylinder-advancing mechanism.



* Other non-Nerf blasters, especially cheap, brandless generics, are also prone to such reliability flaws that renders them useless to non-modders.
** Some brands even use ''rope'' as part of their cocking and launching mechanism. These, naturally, fray quickly with use and are often on the difficult side of replacement. Cock one of these guns too hard and the rope for the mechanism can overstretch or snap, rendering it useless. Shur-Fine Guns indeed.

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* Other non-Nerf blasters, especially cheap, brandless generics, are also prone to such reliability flaws that renders them useless to non-modders.
**
non-modders. Some brands even use ''rope'' as part of their cocking and launching mechanism. These, naturally, fray quickly with use and are often on the difficult side of replacement. Cock one of these guns too hard and the rope for the mechanism can overstretch or snap, rendering it useless. Shur-Fine Guns indeed.



* In ''{{VideoGame/Borderlands 2}}'', none of the guns jam but this trope is played with by two of the [[TheAestheticsOfTechnology gun manufacturers.]] Bandit guns are made from scrap, covered with spikes and stupid-but-cool paintjobs, and have misspelled and grammatically incorrect names. They have huge mag sizes and decent power, but low accuracy and the slowest reloads. Tediore guns are inexpensive, plastic and boxy with drab or cheesy colour schemes and names that sound like bargain-bin-product adverts. They're below average on almost all stats, but they're dirt cheap and have a unique trait - instead of reloading, the guns are [[ThrowAwayGuns thrown away]] and explode like a grenade before reappearing in the owner's hand, giving them the fastest reloads (though with the added loss of you losing all the ammo that was left in them, since that's what powers the explosion - toss one after only a few shots and it'll be deadlier than if you emptied it). The explosion is actually a flaw of the digistruction procedure that remakes them, but they [[PolishTheTurd advertise it as a perk.]]

to:

* In ''{{VideoGame/Borderlands 2}}'', none ''VideoGame/Borderlands2'':
** None
of the guns jam jam, but this trope is played with by two of the [[TheAestheticsOfTechnology gun manufacturers.]] Bandit guns are made from scrap, covered with spikes and stupid-but-cool paintjobs, and have misspelled and grammatically incorrect names. They have huge mag sizes and decent power, but low accuracy and the slowest reloads. Tediore guns are inexpensive, plastic and boxy with drab or cheesy colour schemes and names that sound like bargain-bin-product adverts. They're below average on almost all stats, but they're dirt cheap and have a unique trait - instead of reloading, the guns are [[ThrowAwayGuns thrown away]] and explode like a grenade before reappearing in the owner's hand, giving them the fastest reloads (though with the added loss of you losing all the ammo that was left in them, since that's what powers the explosion - toss one after only a few shots and it'll be deadlier than if you emptied it). The explosion is actually a flaw of the digistruction procedure that remakes them, but they [[PolishTheTurd advertise it as a perk.]]



* [[{{Film/GuardiansOfTheGalaxy}} Star Lord's]] third special attack in ''VideoGame/MarvelContestOfChampions'' has this PlayedForLaughs when he kicks back his opponent then levels his gun at them, only for it to fizzle and spark when he pulls the trigger. He frantically [[PercussiveMaintenance starts hitting it]] and finally manages to get a shot off just as the opponent rushes at him again.

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* [[{{Film/GuardiansOfTheGalaxy}} Star Lord's]] ComicBook/StarLord's third special attack in ''VideoGame/MarvelContestOfChampions'' has this PlayedForLaughs when he kicks back his opponent then levels his gun at them, only for it to fizzle and spark when he pulls the trigger. He frantically [[PercussiveMaintenance starts hitting it]] and finally manages to get a shot off just as the opponent rushes at him again.



''[the bus hits the cannon... [[SubvertedTrope and knocks one of its wheels off.]]]''\\

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''[the bus hits the cannon... [[SubvertedTrope and knocks one of its wheels off.]]]''\\off]]]''\\
22nd Oct '17 9:23:52 AM ironballs16
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'''Tour Guide:''' [[LampshadeHanging Of course, for safety reasons, we don't keep the cannon loaded. It's just common sense.]]

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'''Tour Guide:''' [[LampshadeHanging Of course, for safety reasons, we don't keep the cannon loaded. loaded]]. [[RealityEnsues It's just common sense.]]
18th Oct '17 1:25:44 PM Conradus
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* The Nambu Type 94 Japanese issue pistol was notorious for firing if touched wrong (exposed sear). While Japanese [=NCOs=] had their pistols issued to them by the military, Japanese officers purchased their own guns, and quite a few did not buy native[[note]]The most popular choices by Japanese officers were the German Mauser Models 1910 and 1914, American Colt Model 1903 and Belgian FN Browning Model 1910. Once the war started, though, the supplies of new pistols were cut off: Belgium was quickly conquered by Gemany, the US and Belgian government in exile obviously weren't exporting pistols to their enemy, and Germany was too busy making weapons for its own military.[[/note]].

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* The Nambu Type 94 Japanese issue pistol was notorious for firing if touched wrong (exposed sear). While Japanese [=NCOs=] had their pistols issued to them by the military, Japanese officers purchased their own guns, and quite a few did not buy native[[note]]The most popular choices by Japanese officers were the German Mauser Models 1910 and 1914, American Colt Model 1903 and Belgian FN Browning Model 1910. Once the war started, though, the supplies of new pistols were cut off: Belgium was quickly conquered by Gemany, the US and Belgian government in exile obviously weren't exporting pistols to their enemy, and Germany was too busy making weapons for its own military.military, not to mention that Allied naval superiority made importing from Germany a rather iffy proposition.[[/note]].
9th Sep '17 12:02:39 PM Kadorhal
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*** This is also forcibly {{invoked|Trope}} as a gameplay mechanic in most of the games - basically, all firearms used in combat have identification locks built in. Anyone other than the intended user attempting to fire an ID-locked gun will find the gun completely incapable of working, even with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber; hence why the player can't just break the neck of the first guard they find and use his assault rifle for the whole game, they have to break into an armory and steal one that hasn't been registered yet (or, in ''4'', pay a gun-launderer to remove the ID lock or purchase an unlocked gun directly). ''[=MGS3=]'' is set in 1964, long before ID-locks and nanomachines, so the explanation there is that Naked Snake would prefer to take a fresh, never-fired weapon from an armory rather than risk using a poorly-maintained weapon stolen from an enemy in the field.

to:

*** This is also forcibly {{invoked|Trope}} as a gameplay mechanic in most of the games - basically, all games. All firearms used in combat in most of the games have identification locks built in. Anyone other than the intended user attempting to fire an ID-locked gun will find the gun completely incapable of working, even with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber; in, hence why the player can't just break the neck of the first guard they find and use his assault rifle for the whole game, they have to break into an armory and steal one game. ''[=MGS4=]'' in particular shows that hasn't been registered yet (or, in ''4'', pay a gun-launderer to remove the ID lock or purchase an unlocked older varieties of locks from the original ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid'' (and presumably ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2SonsOfLiberty MGS2]]'') simply stopped the user from being able to make the trigger-pulling motion with their finger, while more modern locks instead make the gun directly). itself act like the epitome of this trope, failing to fire on pulling the trigger even with a full magazine loaded and a round in the chamber (ironically, this is the game that introduced a character who can launder ID-locked guns for you to use). ''[=MGS3=]'' is set in 1964, long before ID-locks and nanomachines, so the explanation there is that Naked Snake would prefer to take a fresh, never-fired weapon from an armory that is guaranteed to work how it should, rather than risk using a poorly-maintained weapon stolen steal one from an enemy in the field.field and risk getting a poorly-maintained one that could jam when he needs it and get him killed.



** One point in ''3'' touches in this trope in a possible lampshade. You can rescue a rookie soldier who is in hiding and complaining that his gun is jammed, claiming it is useless. If your character has decent Small Guns, you can help him fix the jam, and he will be armed again.

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** One point in ''3'' touches in this trope in a possible lampshade. You can rescue a rookie soldier an initiate in the Brotherhood of Steel who is in hiding and complaining that his gun is jammed, claiming it is useless. If your character has decent Small Guns, you can help him fix the jam, jam by simply pulling back the charging handle, and he will be armed again.
3rd Sep '17 9:21:06 AM JackTheHammer
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** Yet another explanation may be that the MHS trials were rushed and improperly conducted. Some have noted that the announcement of the P320 being the winner was done on a significant date, January 19, which was 24 hours before Creator/DonaldTrump was inaugurated as President of the United States. Theories have been put forth that Army bureaucrats feared that Trump would order a review and even a redo of the over-budget and behind-schedule MHS process (and considering how hard he has been on [[https://infogalactic.com/info/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II other expensive weapons systems]], he very well may have), and rushed the approval process simply to avoid his scrutiny.
** On top of all this, the P320 was already being sued by Steyr [[http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/lawsuit-filed-sig-sauer-steyr-patent-infringement-new-army-p320/ for patent infringement]]. It's probably safe to say, that unless SIG shows some truly exemplary customer service, the P320, which initially was set for a bright future, may end up with a reputation as controversial as the M9, [[{{Irony}} the very gun it was meant to replace.]]

to:

** Yet another explanation may be that the MHS trials were rushed and improperly conducted.conducted ([[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGI2H0EjDTw more details here)]]. Some have noted that the announcement of the P320 being the winner was done on a significant date, January 19, which was 24 hours before Creator/DonaldTrump was inaugurated as President of the United States. Theories have been put forth that Army bureaucrats feared that Trump would order a review and even a redo of the over-budget and behind-schedule MHS process (and considering how hard he has been on [[https://infogalactic.com/info/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II other expensive weapons systems]], he very well may have), and rushed the approval process simply to avoid his scrutiny.
** On top of all this, the P320 was already being sued by Steyr [[http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/lawsuit-filed-sig-sauer-steyr-patent-infringement-new-army-p320/ for patent infringement]]. It's probably safe to say, say that unless SIG shows some truly exemplary customer service, the P320, which initially was set for a bright future, may end up with a reputation as controversial as the M9, [[{{Irony}} the very gun it was meant to replace.]]
22nd Aug '17 4:16:32 PM OddHack
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* This nearly caused an IJustShotMArvinInTheFace moment in ''Film/HeartbreakRidge''. One member of TheSquad claims that his M16 is jammed, and starts [[ArtisticLicenseGunSafety waving it around]] to demonstrate to his sergeant. The sergeant in question grabs the gun and frantically tries to move it so it's not pointed at anyone, and just as he does so the gun goes off, nearly hitting several people including the base's commanding officer.

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* This nearly caused an IJustShotMArvinInTheFace IJustShotMarvinInTheFace moment in ''Film/HeartbreakRidge''. One member of TheSquad claims that his M16 is jammed, and starts [[ArtisticLicenseGunSafety waving it around]] to demonstrate to his sergeant. The sergeant in question grabs the gun and frantically tries to move it so it's not pointed at anyone, and just as he does so the gun goes off, nearly hitting several people including the base's commanding officer.
17th Aug '17 2:47:44 AM Medinoc
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** Although the archetypical Gets Hot, the plasma gun, isn't actually breaking. It's building up too much heat from being repeatedly fired and venting the super-heated gas to keep the gun from exploding. If you're a Space Marine, whose armor is deliberately made especially heat-resistant, no problem; not so much if you're a Guardsman.

to:

** Although the archetypical Gets Hot, the plasma gun, isn't actually breaking. It's building up too much heat from being repeatedly fired and venting the super-heated gas to keep the gun from exploding. If you're a Space Marine, whose armor is deliberately made especially heat-resistant, no problem; you have a good chance to survive; not so much if you're a Guardsman.



** A common fate in TabletopGame/SpaceHulk is for a Terminator's weapon to jam/overheat/explode, usually when surrounded by the swarm of enemies that require it to shoot full-auto.

to:

** On tabletop, overheating has a 1/6 chance and is resolved as an automatic wound that can be avoided by armor/invulnerable save, regardless of the weapon's specifics. In the RPG games, it's a 1/10 chance resolved as being shot in the arm with the gun, so it follows the gun's characteristics exactly. And any "best quality" version of a gun is immune to overheating.
** A common fate in TabletopGame/SpaceHulk is for a Terminator's weapon to jam/overheat/explode, usually when surrounded by the swarm of enemies that require required it to shoot full-auto.full-auto in the first place.
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