History Main / ReliablyUnreliableGuns

14th Aug '16 3:53:11 AM EDP
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*** Also subverted by the [[http://www.forgottenweapons.com/medium-machine-guns/perino/ Perino Modello 1908 machine gun]], a contemporary of the Fiat-Revelli prototype that was reliable as the famous Vickers machine gun (kept in service until 1968 because it was just that good) and having a variant of the clip mechanism superior to the ammo belt (the clips were in an open box that obtained similar results to the belt, but a soldier would be able to place new clips on its top to keep continuous fire while the belt would have to be changed but was faster to change once empty, and the spent cases would be replaced in the clip and ejected with it, avoiding to get the spent clips underfoot or hitting troops and allowing an easier recover of the clips for reloading. On the other hand, it was heavier), with the only issue, excessive weight, being solved by the inventor himself. So, why the hell was it not mass-produced beyond the initial 150 weapons commission and adopted? [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem Because engineer Revelli (inventor of the other machine gun) was on the commission to decide if production of the Perino would continue,]] and the opinion of the rest of the commission was swayed by the Fiat company's political power.

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*** Also subverted by the [[http://www.forgottenweapons.com/medium-machine-guns/perino/ Perino Modello 1908 machine gun]], a contemporary of the Fiat-Revelli prototype that was reliable as the famous Vickers machine gun (kept in service until 1968 because it was just that good) and having a variant of the clip mechanism arguably superior to the ammo belt (the belt[[note]]The clips were in an open box that obtained similar results to the belt, but a soldier would be able to place new clips on its top to keep continuous fire while the belt would have to be changed but was once spent. The belt could be reloaded faster to change once empty, and but in the Perino the spent cases would be replaced in the clip and ejected with it, avoiding to get the spent clips underfoot or hitting troops and allowing an easier recover of the clips for reloading. On the other hand, it It was heavier), also heavier[[/note]], with the only issue, excessive weight, being solved by the inventor himself. So, why the hell was it not mass-produced beyond the initial 150 weapons commission and adopted? [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem Because engineer Revelli (inventor of the other machine gun) was on the commission to decide if production of the Perino would continue,]] and the opinion of the rest of the commission was swayed by the Fiat company's political power.
12th Jul '16 12:24:42 PM TheD3rp
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* The Chauchat light machine gun, at least the M1918 variant issued to the American Expeditionary Forces in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. While the original Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine and the fact that Gladiator, a bicycle company with no prior firearms experience, was the one handling most of the production, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe - most instances of them doing so in the modern day are from the simple fact that the weapons are a century old at this point and simply haven't been maintained properly. Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version rechambered from the original 8mm Lebel to .30-06 Springfield. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account the significant differences in cartridge size (8x51 to 7.62x63), shape (straight-cased Springfield versus tapered Lebel), and power between the two cartridges, in addition to several other mistakes (in particular screwing up the conversion from metric to English units, meaning the M1918's magazine and chamber weren't even the correct size). As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection, and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops before they could fire off a full magazine (most automatic riflemen squadrons giving up on that and switching back to the bolt-action Springfield M1903). They ended up used anyway, instead of the vastly superior Lewis gun or Browning Automatic Rifle, simply because [[InterserviceRivalry the AEF's chief of ordnance disliked Colonel Lewis]], and worries that the BAR would end up stolen and reverse-engineered.

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* The Chauchat light machine gun, at least the M1918 variant issued to the American Expeditionary Forces in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. While the original Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine and the fact that Gladiator, a bicycle company with no prior firearms experience, was the one handling most of the production, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe - most instances of them doing so in the modern day are from the simple fact that the weapons are a century old at this point and simply haven't been maintained properly. Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version rechambered from the original 8mm Lebel to .30-06 Springfield. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account the significant differences in cartridge size (8x51 to 7.62x63), 62x63) and shape (straight-cased Springfield versus tapered Lebel), and power between the two cartridges, in addition to several other mistakes (in particular screwing up the conversion from metric to English units, meaning the M1918's magazine and chamber weren't even the correct size). As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection, and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops before they could fire off a full magazine (most automatic riflemen squadrons giving up on that and switching back to the bolt-action Springfield M1903). They ended up used anyway, instead of the vastly superior Lewis gun or Browning Automatic Rifle, simply because [[InterserviceRivalry the AEF's chief of ordnance disliked Colonel Lewis]], and worries that the BAR would end up stolen and reverse-engineered.
8th Jul '16 1:31:00 PM Kadorhal
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* The Chauchat light machine gun, at least the M1918 variant issued to the American Expeditionary Forces in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. While the original Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine and the fact that Gladiator, a bicycle company with no prior firearms experience, was the one handling most of the production, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe - most instances of them doing so in the modern day are from the simple fact that the weapons are a century old at this point and simply haven't been maintained properly. Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version rechambered from the original 8mm Lebel to .30-06 Springfield. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account the significant differences in cartridge size (8x51 to 7.62x67), shape (straight-cased Springfield versus tapered Lebel), and power between the two cartridges, in addition to several other mistakes (in particular screwing up the conversion from metric to English units, meaning the M1918's magazine and chamber weren't even the correct size). As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection, and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops before they could fire off a full magazine (most automatic riflemen squadrons giving up on that and switching back to the bolt-action Springfield M1903). They ended up used anyway, instead of the vastly superior Lewis gun or Browning Automatic Rifle, simply because [[InterserviceRivalry the AEF's chief of ordnance disliked Colonel Lewis]], and worries that the BAR would end up stolen and reverse-engineered.

to:

* The Chauchat light machine gun, at least the M1918 variant issued to the American Expeditionary Forces in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. While the original Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine and the fact that Gladiator, a bicycle company with no prior firearms experience, was the one handling most of the production, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe - most instances of them doing so in the modern day are from the simple fact that the weapons are a century old at this point and simply haven't been maintained properly. Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version rechambered from the original 8mm Lebel to .30-06 Springfield. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account the significant differences in cartridge size (8x51 to 7.62x67), 62x63), shape (straight-cased Springfield versus tapered Lebel), and power between the two cartridges, in addition to several other mistakes (in particular screwing up the conversion from metric to English units, meaning the M1918's magazine and chamber weren't even the correct size). As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection, and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops before they could fire off a full magazine (most automatic riflemen squadrons giving up on that and switching back to the bolt-action Springfield M1903). They ended up used anyway, instead of the vastly superior Lewis gun or Browning Automatic Rifle, simply because [[InterserviceRivalry the AEF's chief of ordnance disliked Colonel Lewis]], and worries that the BAR would end up stolen and reverse-engineered.
5th Jul '16 5:04:39 PM Kadorhal
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It's well-known that even the best guns still jam every now and then after repeated firing. Usual causes include a round failing to seat properly into the breech, a spent casing getting caught upon ejection (a condition known as "stovepiping"), poor-quality ammunition (insufficient pressure to cycle the weapon) or poor handling while shooting, (too much energy from the firing is absorbed by the hands/arms, known as "limp wristing"). These errors take only a second or two to correct in real life, so why is it that when a firearm jams in a film or television show, it's suddenly rendered [[ThrowawayGuns useless]]? Aside from its use as a convenient way to disarm a character, no one knows. All we do know that a gun will [[BottomlessMagazines never run out of ammo]] unless ''something'' takes it out of commission, so the weapon-disabling jam is it.

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It's well-known that even the best guns still jam every now and then after repeated firing. Usual causes include a round failing to seat properly into the breech, a spent casing getting caught upon ejection (a condition known as "stovepiping"), poor-quality ammunition (insufficient pressure to cycle the weapon) or poor handling while shooting, (too much shooting (not enough energy from the firing is absorbed by the hands/arms, hands/arms to let the slide or bolt move far back enough to cycle, known as "limp wristing"). These errors take only a second or two to correct in real life, so why is it that when a firearm jams in a film or television show, it's suddenly rendered [[ThrowawayGuns useless]]? Aside from its use as a convenient way to disarm a character, no one knows. All we do know that a gun will [[BottomlessMagazines never run out of ammo]] unless ''something'' takes it out of commission, so the weapon-disabling jam is it.
4th Jul '16 1:52:19 PM Kadorhal
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* The Chauchat light machine gun, at least the M1918 variant issued to the American Expeditionary Forces in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. While the original Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe. Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version chambered in .30-06. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account that .30-06 was significantly longer than 8mm Lebel in addition to several other mistakes. As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops.

to:

* The Chauchat light machine gun, at least the M1918 variant issued to the American Expeditionary Forces in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. While the original Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine, magazine and the fact that Gladiator, a bicycle company with no prior firearms experience, was the one handling most of the production, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe. believe - most instances of them doing so in the modern day are from the simple fact that the weapons are a century old at this point and simply haven't been maintained properly. Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version chambered in .30-06. rechambered from the original 8mm Lebel to .30-06 Springfield. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account that .30-06 was significantly longer than 8mm Lebel the significant differences in cartridge size (8x51 to 7.62x67), shape (straight-cased Springfield versus tapered Lebel), and power between the two cartridges, in addition to several other mistakes. mistakes (in particular screwing up the conversion from metric to English units, meaning the M1918's magazine and chamber weren't even the correct size). As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection inspection, and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops.troops before they could fire off a full magazine (most automatic riflemen squadrons giving up on that and switching back to the bolt-action Springfield M1903). They ended up used anyway, instead of the vastly superior Lewis gun or Browning Automatic Rifle, simply because [[InterserviceRivalry the AEF's chief of ordnance disliked Colonel Lewis]], and worries that the BAR would end up stolen and reverse-engineered.



* The Enfield L85 (better known as the [=SA80=]) was basically Britain's way of telling the United States that when it came to the design of infantry weapons, "anything you can screw up, we can screw up bigger"; the design itself was fairly sound, albeit rather maintenance-intensive and complicated to disassemble, but had to be built to extremely fine tolerances. Unfortunately, the initial in-service version was the last project undertaken by the Royal Small Arms Factory, whose workers had recently learned they were all going to be laid off. The reader can doubtless imagine the effect this had on their workmanship. A report listed 50 issues inherent to the system, including spontaneous malfunctions, firing pin breakage, safety breakages, and magazines spontaneously dropping. This is what happens when a country forces through a new assault rifle just for the hell of it. Heckler & Koch managed to (mostly) salvage the design in the upgrade to the A2 standard, though the light support weapon variation is still not seeing much use at all except as a rarely-used DMR (its initial role is instead being fulfilled by the [=L110A1=]).

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* The Enfield L85 (better known as the [=SA80=]) was basically Britain's way of telling the United States that when it came to the design of infantry weapons, "anything you can screw up, we can screw up bigger"; the design itself was fairly sound, albeit rather maintenance-intensive and complicated to disassemble, but had to be built to extremely fine tolerances. Unfortunately, the initial in-service version was the last project undertaken by the Royal Small Arms Factory, whose workers had recently learned they were all going to be laid off. The reader can doubtless imagine the effect this had on their workmanship. A report listed 50 issues inherent to the system, including spontaneous malfunctions, firing pin breakage, safety breakages, and magazines spontaneously dropping. This is what happens when a country forces through a new assault rifle just for the hell of it. Heckler & Koch managed to (mostly) salvage the design in the upgrade to the A2 standard, though the light support weapon variation is still not seeing much use at all except as a rarely-used DMR (its (non-changeable barrel and bullpup action make it very difficult to fire for long periods or even use magazines suited for that; its initial role is instead being fulfilled by the [=L110A1=]).[=L110A1=], a British version of the excellent FN Minimi).
3rd Jul '16 5:10:28 PM Kadorhal
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* In ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid3SnakeEater'', Ocelot stovepipes his own semiautomatic pistol when he tries a fancy move he'd heard of for the first time[[note]]Basically, copying a move he'd head about from Middle East fighters, which involves working the action of your gun after reloading, every time. This is to ensure that the gun always has a round loaded, no matter if the chamber was empty or not. However, because he hadn't practiced the maneuver, he works the action too fast, resulting in the aforementioned stovepipe[[/note]]. Ocelot then attempts to [[PistolWhipping pistol whip]] Naked Snake with his gun instead of clearing it, despite the fact that Snake has just taken down half a dozen of his men with little more than his bare hands. Clearly it was his turn to hold the IdiotBall. Snake easily counters, and when Ocelot drops his gun the cartridge pops out, clearing the jam. [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItvclICnwgI Snake then explains this to Ocelot]] (and the audience) and Snake attributes it to the latter's faults and inexperience. Since the game is a {{prequel}} it establishes why he's ''Revolver'' Ocelot in the present/near-future storyline.
** In the introduction cutscene of ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4GunsOfThePatriots'', Snake tries to fire an AK-102, but it jams after two shots. He does try to cycle the action manually and clear it, but it won't budge, and he ends up tossing it to the ground; a Codec call to Otacon reveals that the ammo in that magazine was of poor quality. He lampshades the lack of jams in actual gameplay by noting how rare that specific type of jam is[[note]]Basically, abnormal combustion caused the cartridge to stick to the chamber rather than cycling the action as normal[[/note]]. [[GameplayAndStoryIntegration In fact, in the short playable sequence right after Snake drops the gun, you can pick it back up, but it has no ammunition.]]
*** This is also forcibly {{invoked|Trope}} as a gameplay mechanic in most of the games - basically, all firearms used in combat have identification locks built in. Anyone other than the intended user attempting to fire an ID-locked gun will find the gun completely incapable of working, even with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber; hence why the player can't just break the neck of the first guard they find and use his assault rifle for the whole game, they have to break into an armory and steal one that hasn't been registered yet. ''[=MGS3=]'' is set in 1964, long before ID-locks and nanomachines, so the explanation there is that Naked Snake would prefer to take a fresh, never-fired weapon from an armory rather than risk using a poorly-maintained weapon stolen from an enemy in the field.
* In ''VideoGame/{{Fallout 3}}'' and ''VideoGame/FalloutNewVegas'', guns with a poor condition (which is fixed by breaking apart a matching gun for parts to repair your gun[[note]]or [[MacGyvering anything that works slightly similar to it]] with the latter's "Jury Rigging" perk[[/note]]) can jam when loading. This includes the first round of a bolt-action rifle failing to load, the magazine of a submachine gun needing a good whack on the bottom, or the door to a laser pistol's pop-out battery not closing. Considering this is supposed to be two-hundred years AfterTheEnd, which was probably when the gun and cleaning supplies for it were made, this is a JustifiedTrope. It's also defied in that when that gun does jam, your character simply works the action again until it does load. Dropping a gun won't discharge it either. Tired of that 10mm pistol now that you have an M1 Garand-[[AKA47 alike]], and don't want to lug it around? Drop it on the ground, and it ... lands.[[note]]Or sell it to the Gun Runners to get a few more .308 bullets for that Garand, whichever works better.[[/note]]

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* In ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid3SnakeEater'', Ocelot stovepipes his own semiautomatic pistol when he tries a fancy move he'd heard of for the first time[[note]]Basically, copying a move he'd head about from Middle East fighters, which involves working the action of your gun after reloading, every time. This is to ensure that the gun always has a round loaded, no matter if the chamber was empty or not. However, because he hadn't practiced the maneuver, he works the action too fast, resulting in the aforementioned stovepipe[[/note]]. Ocelot then attempts to [[PistolWhipping pistol whip]] Naked Snake with his gun instead of clearing it, despite the fact that Snake has just taken down half a dozen of his men with little more than his bare hands. Clearly it was his turn to hold the IdiotBall. Snake easily counters, and when Ocelot drops his gun the cartridge pops out, clearing the jam. [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItvclICnwgI Snake then explains this to Ocelot]] (and the audience) and Snake attributes audience), attributing it to the latter's faults and inexperience. Since the game is a {{prequel}} it establishes why he's ''Revolver'' Ocelot in the present/near-future storyline.
** In the introduction cutscene of ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4GunsOfThePatriots'', Snake tries to fire an AK-102, but it jams after two shots. He does try to cycle the action manually and clear it, but it won't budge, and he ends up tossing it to the ground; a Codec call to Otacon reveals that the ammo in that magazine was of poor quality. He lampshades the lack of jams in actual gameplay by noting how rare that specific type of jam is[[note]]Basically, abnormal combustion caused the cartridge to stick to the chamber rather than cycling the action as normal[[/note]]. [[GameplayAndStoryIntegration In fact, in the short playable sequence right after Snake drops the gun, you can pick it back up, but it has no ammunition.]]
normal[[/note]].
*** This is also forcibly {{invoked|Trope}} as a gameplay mechanic in most of the games - basically, all firearms used in combat have identification locks built in. Anyone other than the intended user attempting to fire an ID-locked gun will find the gun completely incapable of working, even with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber; hence why the player can't just break the neck of the first guard they find and use his assault rifle for the whole game, they have to break into an armory and steal one that hasn't been registered yet.yet (or, in ''4'', pay a gun-launderer to remove the ID lock or purchase an unlocked gun directly). ''[=MGS3=]'' is set in 1964, long before ID-locks and nanomachines, so the explanation there is that Naked Snake would prefer to take a fresh, never-fired weapon from an armory rather than risk using a poorly-maintained weapon stolen from an enemy in the field.
* In ''VideoGame/{{Fallout 3}}'' and ''VideoGame/FalloutNewVegas'', guns with a poor condition (which is fixed by breaking apart a matching gun for parts to repair your gun[[note]]or [[MacGyvering anything that works slightly similar to it]] with the latter's "Jury Rigging" perk[[/note]]) can jam when loading. This includes the first round of a bolt-action rifle failing to load, the magazine of a submachine gun needing a good whack on the bottom, or the door to a laser pistol's pop-out battery not closing. Considering this is supposed to be two-hundred years AfterTheEnd, which was probably when the gun and cleaning supplies for it were made, this is a JustifiedTrope. It's also defied in that when that gun does jam, your character simply works the action again until it does load. Dropping a gun won't discharge it either. Tired of that poor-condition 10mm pistol now that you have an M1 Garand-[[AKA47 alike]], and don't want to lug it around? Drop it on the ground, and it ... lands.[[note]]Or sell it to the Gun Runners to get a few more .308 bullets for that Garand, whichever works better.[[/note]]



** Notable is how the AK-47's notorious reliability is acknowledged in-game and is less likely to jam on you, if ever. The AK runs through about a thousand rounds before getting into poor enough condition to start jamming, and it takes about two hundred more before blowing up. The [[BlingBlingBang golden AK's]] last even longer. The only gun in the game that doesn't jam or misfire is the flare gun, and even that still blows up eventually.
** Particularly notable in ''Far Cry 2'' is how little time a gun actually lasts; it can go from a shining, brand-new weapon to a stained, corroded wreck within hours at best, with some weapons like the USAS-12 ''visibly'' corroding with every shot. The vast majority of guns in this game must be held together with nothing more than chewing gum and reassuring platitudes; that or the ''[=FC2=]'' universe is afflicted by turbo-rust. Another extremely silly aspect of this mechanic is that jams always happen before a gun fires while failures always happen afterwards, meaning the player character will operate the pump of a shotgun before shooting so it can jam (even though they already did so after the last shot) or a weapon will successfully fire, cycle, and ''then'' explode. And despite supposedly being a highly-trained mercenary, the player character has no idea how to maintain their weaponry.
** [[http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Far_Cry_2 There's also the weapons' physics-defining proclivity to fling parts of themselves toward the player's face]].

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** Notable is how the AK-47's notorious reliability is acknowledged in-game and is less likely to jam on you, if ever. The AK runs through about a thousand rounds before getting into poor enough condition to start jamming, and it takes about two hundred more before blowing up. The [[BlingBlingBang golden AK's]] AKs]] last even longer. The only gun in the game that doesn't jam or misfire is the flare gun, and even that still blows up eventually.
** Particularly notable in ''Far Cry 2'' is how little time a gun actually lasts; it can go from a shining, brand-new weapon to a stained, corroded wreck within hours at best, with some weapons like the USAS-12 ''visibly'' corroding with every shot.shot (the Dart Rifle actually takes, at best with the reliability upgrade, ''thirty'' shots to blow up). The vast majority of guns in this game must be held together with nothing more than chewing gum and reassuring platitudes; that or the ''[=FC2=]'' universe is afflicted by turbo-rust. Another extremely silly aspect of this mechanic is that jams always happen before a gun fires while failures always happen afterwards, meaning the player character will operate the pump of a shotgun before shooting so it can jam (even though they already did so after the last shot) or a weapon will successfully fire, cycle, and ''then'' explode. And despite supposedly being a highly-trained mercenary, the player character has no idea how to maintain their weaponry.
** [[http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Far_Cry_2 There's also the weapons' physics-defining physics-defying proclivity to fling parts of themselves toward the player's face]].face when they fail]].









* [[https://www.youtube.com/user/Iraqveteran8888 Iraqveteran8888]] once tried to make a video showing them shooting a Calico SMG with its unique helical magazine. What actually was posted was them showing you the fragments after thing blew, and injuries to Barrys hand.

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* [[https://www.youtube.com/user/Iraqveteran8888 Iraqveteran8888]] once tried to make a video showing them shooting a Calico SMG with its unique helical magazine. What actually was posted was them showing you the fragments after the thing blew, and injuries to Barrys Barry's hand.



* RealLife example: The infamous North Hollywood Shootout. Two bank robbers did a job armed to the teeth with modified AKM rifles and full kevlar suits to protect them. One of them was cornered into a one on one with an officer when his assault rifle jammed due to a stovepiped cartridge. Ordinarily, this would have taken only a moment to fix, but the robber had earlier been shot in the wrist, rendering him incapable of clearing the jam [[note]]not that he couldn't have used his wrist or arm to do it, or held the rifle up with that arm to use his good hand for the job; it's likely he was too preoccupied with the whole "oh fuck I've been shot" bit to consider that[[/note]]. After his attempt to clear the jam failed, he threw the assault rifle to the side and pulled out a 9mm pistol he had as a sidearm to continue shooting; when [[BlastingItOutOfTheirHands he took another round to his good hand]], he picked the pistol back up, placed it to his chin, and shot himself.

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* RealLife example: The infamous North Hollywood Shootout. Two bank robbers did a job armed to the teeth with modified AKM rifles and full kevlar suits to protect them. One of them was cornered into a one on one with an officer when his assault rifle jammed due to a stovepiped cartridge. Ordinarily, this would have taken only a moment to fix, but the robber had earlier been shot in the wrist, rendering him incapable of clearing the jam [[note]]not that he couldn't have used his wrist or arm to do it, or held the rifle up with that arm to use his good hand for the job; it's likely he was too preoccupied with the whole "oh fuck I've pain from having been shot" bit shot to consider that[[/note]].think clearly[[/note]]. After his attempt to clear the jam failed, he threw the assault rifle to the side and pulled out a 9mm pistol he had as a sidearm to continue shooting; when [[BlastingItOutOfTheirHands he took another round to his good hand]], he picked the pistol back up, placed it to his chin, and shot himself.



* Not the Chauchat light machine gun. While the Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe. Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version chambered in .30-06. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account that .30-06 was significantly longer than 8mm Lebel in addition to several other mistakes. As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops.

to:

* Not the The Chauchat light machine gun. gun, at least the M1918 variant issued to the American Expeditionary Forces in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. While the original Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe. Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version chambered in .30-06. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account that .30-06 was significantly longer than 8mm Lebel in addition to several other mistakes. As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops.



*** Also {{Subverted}} by the [[http://www.forgottenweapons.com/medium-machine-guns/perino/ Perino Modello 1908 machine gun]], a contemporary of the Fiat-Revelli prototype that was reliable as the famous Vickers machine gun (kept in service until 1968 because it was just that good) and having a variant of the clip mechanism superior to the ammo belt (the clips were in an open box that obtained similar results to the belt, but a soldier would be able to place new clips on its top to keep continuous fire while the belt would have to be changed but was faster to change once empty, and the spent cases would be replaced in the clip and ejected with it, avoiding to get the spent clips underfoot or hitting troops and allowing an easier recover of the clips for reloading. On the other hand, it was heavier), with the only issue, excessive weight, being solved by the inventor himself. So, why the hell was it not mass-produced beyond the initial 150 weapons commission and adopted? [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem Because engineer Revelli (inventor of the other machine gun) was on the commission to decide if production of the Perino would continue,]] and the opinion of the rest of the commission was swayed by the Fiat company's political power.

to:

*** Also {{Subverted}} subverted by the [[http://www.forgottenweapons.com/medium-machine-guns/perino/ Perino Modello 1908 machine gun]], a contemporary of the Fiat-Revelli prototype that was reliable as the famous Vickers machine gun (kept in service until 1968 because it was just that good) and having a variant of the clip mechanism superior to the ammo belt (the clips were in an open box that obtained similar results to the belt, but a soldier would be able to place new clips on its top to keep continuous fire while the belt would have to be changed but was faster to change once empty, and the spent cases would be replaced in the clip and ejected with it, avoiding to get the spent clips underfoot or hitting troops and allowing an easier recover of the clips for reloading. On the other hand, it was heavier), with the only issue, excessive weight, being solved by the inventor himself. So, why the hell was it not mass-produced beyond the initial 150 weapons commission and adopted? [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem Because engineer Revelli (inventor of the other machine gun) was on the commission to decide if production of the Perino would continue,]] and the opinion of the rest of the commission was swayed by the Fiat company's political power.



** Contrary to the above, the Japanese actually did produce a quality machine gun. The Type 96 and the later updated 99 LMG (based off the Czechoslovakian ZB vz 26, an influential LMG at the time that inspired the excellent Bren LMG as well) was a notoriously feared weapon on the battlefield, particularly for its accuracy. A skilled operator could lay down a deadly field of fire from a concealed position (especially on Iwo Jima where a number of them made short work of a fire team or two). A special 2.5X telescopic sight was sometimes attached to create essentially an ''automatic sniper rifle''. Unfortunately for the Japanese, they were never fielded in a substantial enough quantity to make a difference in a battle, and because both weapons required vastly different cartridges to operate[[note]]Imperial Japan utilized ''four'' different 7.7mm cartridges, none of which could interchange with each other. That's in addition to still using the older 6.5mm rifle/light machine gun round.[[/note]], made logistics a nightmare. Additionally, even the Type 96 had its own problems with frequent jamming from fired cases getting stuck in the chamber; attempts to rectify this via oiling the rounds, similar to some of the Italian machine guns referred to above, simply worsened the problem by attracting sand and dirt into the chamber, leading to the removal of that feature for the Type 99.

to:

** Contrary to the above, the Japanese actually did produce a quality machine gun. The Type 96 and the later updated 99 LMG (based off the Czechoslovakian ZB vz 26, an influential LMG at the time that inspired the excellent Bren LMG as well) was a notoriously feared weapon on the battlefield, particularly for its accuracy. A skilled operator could lay down a deadly field of fire from a concealed position (especially on Iwo Jima where a number of them made short work of a fire team or two). A special 2.5X telescopic sight was sometimes attached to create essentially an ''automatic sniper rifle''. Unfortunately for the Japanese, they were never fielded in a substantial enough quantity to make a difference in a battle, and because both weapons required vastly different cartridges to operate[[note]]Imperial Japan utilized ''four'' different 7.7mm cartridges, none of which could interchange with each other. That's in addition to still using the older 6.5mm rifle/light machine gun round.round, because they couldn't make enough of the 7.7mm weapons to replace the 6.5mm ones as they intended.[[/note]], made logistics a nightmare. Additionally, even the Type 96 had its own problems with frequent jamming from fired cases getting stuck in the chamber; attempts to rectify this via oiling the rounds, similar to some of the Italian machine guns referred to above, simply worsened the problem by attracting sand and dirt into the chamber, leading to the removal of that feature for the Type 99.



* The MG 42 and its post-war progeny, as mentioned above, was primarily an excellent design, but there was one poor variant - the US military briefly experimented with MG 42s converted to .30-06 Springfield following the war. In the same manner as one of the above-mentioned Chauchat's many issues, the design team failed to account for .30-06 being six millimeters longer than the weapon's original 8mm Mauser cartridge when converting them, thus failing to increase the length of the receiver for the new cartridge and making weapons that were completely incapable of properly cycling after a single shot.

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* The MG 42 and its post-war progeny, as mentioned above, was primarily an excellent design, but there was one poor variant - the US military briefly experimented with MG 42s converted to .30-06 Springfield following the war. In the same manner as one of the above-mentioned Chauchat's many issues, issues with Chauchats converted to the cartridge above, the design team failed to account for .30-06 (7.62x63mmR) being six millimeters longer than the weapon's original 8mm Mauser cartridge (7.92x57mm) when converting them, thus failing to increase the length of the receiver for the new cartridge and making weapons that were completely incapable of properly cycling after a single shot.



* The German Gewehr 41 semi-automatic rifle used what was known as a gas-trap system. One of the requirements in design was no gas tube was allowed to be drilled into the barrel for fear of premature wear and tear (and it was a legitimate concern back then). There was a gas trap at the muzzle end which would force some of the gas against an exterior piston which would cycle the action like normal. The problem was that carbon buildup was greater at the muzzle and the piston would be covered with it to the point that the gas could not overcome the friction of the carbon buildup keeping the piston in place. The improved Gewehr 43 switched to a more conventional gas system based on that of the Soviets' SVT-40, but still suffered issues - wartime shortages as the end of the war approached forced the use of cheap parts, and an exposed extractor spring meant constant cleaning was required.

to:

* The German Gewehr 41 semi-automatic rifle used what was known as a gas-trap system. One of the requirements in design was no gas tube was allowed to be drilled into the barrel for fear of premature wear and tear (and it was a legitimate concern back then). There was a gas trap at the muzzle end which would force some of the gas against an exterior piston which would cycle the action like normal. The problem was that carbon buildup was greater at the muzzle and the piston would be covered with it to the point that the gas could not overcome the friction of the carbon buildup keeping the piston in place. The improved Gewehr 43 switched to a more conventional short-stroke gas system based on that of the Soviets' SVT-40, but still suffered issues - wartime shortages as the end of the war approached forced the use of cheap parts, and an exposed extractor spring meant constant cleaning was required.required thanks to an exposed extractor spring.
30th Jun '16 2:03:51 PM nielas
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* In ''Series/{{Daredevil 2015}}'' a hitman is about to shoot a mobster when we flash back a few hours to when one of Fisk's mooks gives the hitman an untraceable gun to use for the hit. The mook guarantees that the gun will not jam. We then return to the present and sure enough the gun jams and the hitman is forced to beat his target to death. A previous episode established that the gun was part of a larger batch of illegal guns smuggled into the city and the mook removed it directly from the storage crate. The gun was probably some low quality knock-off that was not stored and maintained properly after it left the factory. The hitman only had himself to blame for not personally test firing it before the hit.

to:

* In ''Series/{{Daredevil 2015}}'' a hitman is about to shoot a mobster when we flash back a few hours to when one of Fisk's mooks gives the hitman an untraceable gun to use for the hit. The mook guarantees that the gun will not jam. We then return to the present and sure enough the gun jams and the hitman is forced to beat his target to death. A previous episode established that the gun was part of a larger batch of illegal guns smuggled into the city and the mook removed it directly from the storage crate. The gun was probably some low quality knock-off that was not stored and maintained properly after it left the factory. The hitman only had himself to blame for not personally test firing it before the hit. Season two establishes that the mook specializes in selling extremely cheap and unreliable guns that are at their deadliest when used to bludgeon someone to death.


Added DiffLines:

* This is played with on ''Series/StanLeesLuckyMan''. Harry is supernaturally lucky due to an ancient bracelet he is wearing. One of Golding's mooks tries to shoot Harry but the first two shots miss. On the third shot the mook's gun comes apart in her hand and the slide flies backwards and knocks her unconscious. It has been established that Golding likes to hire former special forces soldiers who use modern weapons and would know how to maintain them properly. The odds of the gun failing that spectacularly are enormous and it shows how powerful the bracelet really is.
5th Jun '16 10:08:02 AM SirBob42
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It's well-known that even the best guns still jam every now and then after repeated firing. Usual causes include a round failing to seat properly into the breech, a spent casing getting caught upon ejection (a condition known as "stovepiping"), poor-quality ammunition (insufficient pressure to cycle the weapon) or poor handling while shooting, (not enough energy from the firing is absorbed by the hands/arms, known as "limp wristing"). These errors take only a second or two to correct in real life, so why is it that when a firearm jams in a film or television show, it's suddenly rendered [[ThrowawayGuns useless]]? Aside from its use as a convenient way to disarm a character, no one knows. All we do know that a gun will [[BottomlessMagazines never run out of ammo]] unless ''something'' takes it out of commission, so the weapon-disabling jam is it.

to:

It's well-known that even the best guns still jam every now and then after repeated firing. Usual causes include a round failing to seat properly into the breech, a spent casing getting caught upon ejection (a condition known as "stovepiping"), poor-quality ammunition (insufficient pressure to cycle the weapon) or poor handling while shooting, (not enough (too much energy from the firing is absorbed by the hands/arms, known as "limp wristing"). These errors take only a second or two to correct in real life, so why is it that when a firearm jams in a film or television show, it's suddenly rendered [[ThrowawayGuns useless]]? Aside from its use as a convenient way to disarm a character, no one knows. All we do know that a gun will [[BottomlessMagazines never run out of ammo]] unless ''something'' takes it out of commission, so the weapon-disabling jam is it.
28th May '16 6:24:09 PM TheD3rp
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* The Chauchat "Machine rifle" was the first squad automatic weapon and the most widely-produced automatic weapon in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. It introduced a number of features seen on modern long guns, including a pistol grip, an in-line stock, a fire rate selector, and stamped steel components to simplify production. As with many pioneering designs the weapon also had several design faults, including a relatively complicated feed path necessitated by the heavily tapered case of the standard French 8mm Lebel cartridge (an issue that would plague all French efforts at automatic weapons until the modern straight-cased 7.5x54mm was introduced in 1929), and the use of long recoil operation. There were also production issues stemming from the traditional arms manufacturers being fully utilized to make traditional arms, therefore Chauchat production was given to less experienced and non-firearms-related firms that resulted in quality control and other manufacturing problems, including poorly aligned sights, which were so common that it was nearly impossible to exchange parts between any two Chauchats. The major issue that was responsible for 75% of all stoppages were the open sided magazines which would inevitably become clogged with dirt and debris. Overheating was the second leading cause of problems with thermal expansion jamming the gun. Despite its generally lackluster performance it was still the only/best option available and saw extensive service by the French and 8 other nations during the war and beyond. The Chauchat only earned its RockBottom reputation when the Americans entered the war and were issued Chauchats that were [[FromBadToWorse hastily designed]] to take the significantly more powerful .30-06 cartridge. The gun had trouble extracting the long, straight cases and was hardly up to the stresses of the powerful round. To make matters ''even worse'', somebody managed to screw up the conversion between English (US) and metric (French) units, so the magazine and chamber for the .30-06 version were the ''wrong size'' (this error wasn't even realized at the time; it wasn't until private testing decades later that it was discovered, hence the error never having been corrected). It was so poor that it was used only as a training weapon, and virtually all of them were destroyed after the war. US troops were then issued 8mm Lebel-chambered Chauchats, which were considered better than no light machine gun at all (but only marginally so[[note]]One of the saddest things about this is that, by the time America entered the war, they had access to the vastly-better Lewis gun and Browning Automatic Rifle - the USMC even had Lewis guns on hand when they were deployed - but were forced into using the Chauchat anyway. The Lewis gun was overlooked [[InterserviceRivalry simply because the AEF's chief of ordnance didn't like Colonel Lewis]], while the BAR wasn't issued due to fear that it would fall into enemy hands.[[/note]]).
** One very significant issue for many people firing the Chauchat is caused by the long-recoil action: It is very easy to "limp-wrist". All recoil operated guns require being held firmly in order to properly cycle, or else too much of the recoil force goes into your body rather than the action, causing it to not cycle back far enough. Limp-wristing is well known to anyone with experience firing any Browning-style short-recoil pistol, like the M1911 or Glock. However, the issue is massively magnified in the Chauchat - the 8mm Lebel is not a light cartridge, and due to the heavy barrel and action travelling quite far due to the long recoil action, the gun wants to jump around all over the place. A ''very'' tight grip is necessary to keep it under control.
** Post-war analysis showed that around half the Chauchats used in combat were dropped as useless by their operator before they could fire off an entire magazine; it wasn't uncommon for American auto-rifle squadrons equipped with them to give up on that and switch to bolt-action M1903 Springfields instead. It jammed often and easily due to the above mentioned reasons, and the only way to unjam it was complete dis and reassembly -- less than recommended in the heat of battle in no-man's-land. One may as well have charged into that trench with nothing but a knife[[note]]which some trench raiders basically did - a [[ShovelStrike sharpened entrenching tool]] and a pistol beat the Chauchat in that situation[[/note]], because it would likely outperform the Chauchat when it turned into an overly-elaborate and cumbersome metal club.
*** In the UsefulNotes/SpanishCivilWar, when the left was desperate for ''anything'' that would fire, [[EvenBeggarsWontChooseIt they still advised men with Chauchats to just throw them away.]] Note, though, that this was probably more due to a human error than the mechanical problems. By this point in time, the aforementioned "left" had all but run out of professional soldiers or discipline. Getting the hooligan militia that made up their ranks to both learn how to properly handle a Chauchat ''and'' handle it correctly in battle would've probably been a miracle, and its use by professional Western Allied and German soldiers in WWI and Nationalist ones in the Spanish Civil War proved the [[TooDumbToLive real problem with the Spanish left.]]
*** Creator/RLeeErmey tested a Chauchat for the TV show ''Lock 'n' Load'' and discovered that even on a modern gun range it invariably jammed after ''four rounds'' every single time. This could easily be caused by French surplus ammunition. Even in reliable guns like the Lebel and Berthier, misfires and hangfires are absurdly common even by old surplus standards. And, seeing as modern commercially loaded 8mm Lebel is virtually nonexistent, most shooting will be done with old surplus.
*** Non-television firearms experts have [[http://www.forgottenweapons.com/the-worst-gun-ever/ conducted analyses]] and found that the Chauchat's poor reputation is largely undeserved, aside from the .30-06 conversion and poor open-sided magazine design. It is, however, well-documented that the Chauchats manufactured by Gladiator, a bicycle company with no prior firearms experience, tended to have manufacturing errors (including the aforementioned misaligned sights) that were not present on those made by SIDARME. Unfortunately, SIDARME accounted for less than 10% of the production, meaning that most Chauchat gunners had to either learn to manually compensate for the typically misaligned Gladiator sights, or if they were mechanically inclined enough implement their own field repairs to correct them.

to:

* The Not the Chauchat "Machine rifle" was light machine gun. While the first squad automatic weapon and the most widely-produced automatic weapon in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. It introduced a number of features seen on modern long guns, including a pistol grip, an in-line stock, a fire rate selector, and stamped steel components to simplify production. As with many pioneering designs the weapon also had several design faults, including a relatively complicated feed path necessitated by the heavily tapered case of the standard French 8mm Lebel cartridge (an issue that would plague all French efforts at automatic weapons until the modern straight-cased 7.5x54mm was introduced in 1929), and the use of long recoil operation. There were also production issues stemming from the traditional arms manufacturers being fully utilized to make traditional arms, therefore Chauchat production was given to less experienced and non-firearms-related firms that resulted in quality control and other manufacturing did indeed have some problems, including poorly aligned sights, most of which were so common that had to do with its open-sided magazine, it was nearly impossible to exchange parts between any two Chauchats. The major issue that was responsible for 75% of all stoppages were the open sided magazines which did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would inevitably become clogged with dirt and debris. Overheating was have you believe. Most of the second leading cause of problems with thermal expansion jamming the gun. Despite its generally lackluster performance it was still the only/best option available and saw extensive service by the French and 8 other nations during the war and beyond. The Chauchat only earned its RockBottom weapon's bad reputation when comes from the Americans entered the war and were issued Chauchats American M1918 version chambered in .30-06. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that were [[FromBadToWorse hastily designed]] to didn't take the into account that .30-06 was significantly more powerful .30-06 cartridge. The gun had trouble extracting the long, straight cases and was hardly up to the stresses of the powerful round. To make matters ''even worse'', somebody managed to screw up the conversion between English (US) and metric (French) units, so the magazine and chamber for the .30-06 version were the ''wrong size'' (this error wasn't even realized at the time; it wasn't until private testing decades later that it was discovered, hence the error never having been corrected). It was so poor that it was used only as a training weapon, and virtually all of them were destroyed after the war. US troops were then issued 8mm Lebel-chambered Chauchats, which were considered better longer than no light machine gun at all (but only marginally so[[note]]One of 8mm Lebel in addition to several other mistakes. As a result, the saddest things about this is that, by the time America entered the war, they had access to the vastly-better Lewis gun and Browning Automatic Rifle - the USMC even had Lewis guns on hand when they were deployed - but were forced into using the Chauchat anyway. The Lewis gun was overlooked [[InterserviceRivalry simply because the AEF's chief majority of ordnance M1918s didn't like Colonel Lewis]], while the BAR wasn't issued due to fear that it would fall into enemy hands.[[/note]]).
** One very significant issue for many people firing the Chauchat is caused by the long-recoil action: It is very easy to "limp-wrist". All recoil operated guns require being held firmly in order to properly cycle, or else too much of the recoil force goes into your body rather than the action, causing it to not cycle back far enough. Limp-wristing is well known to anyone with experience firing any Browning-style short-recoil pistol, like the M1911 or Glock. However, the issue is massively magnified in the Chauchat - the 8mm Lebel is not a light cartridge, and due to the heavy barrel and action travelling quite far due to the long recoil action, the gun wants to jump around all over the place. A ''very'' tight grip is necessary to keep it under control.
** Post-war analysis showed that around half the Chauchats used in combat were dropped as useless by their operator before they could fire off an entire magazine; it wasn't uncommon for American auto-rifle squadrons equipped with them to give up on that and switch to bolt-action M1903 Springfields instead. It jammed often and easily due to the above mentioned reasons,
pass factory inspection and the only way to unjam it was complete dis and reassembly -- less than recommended in the heat of battle in no-man's-land. One may as well have charged into few that trench with nothing but a knife[[note]]which some trench raiders basically did - a [[ShovelStrike sharpened entrenching tool]] make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and a pistol beat the Chauchat in that situation[[/note]], because it would likely outperform the Chauchat when it turned into an overly-elaborate and cumbersome metal club.
*** In the UsefulNotes/SpanishCivilWar, when the left was desperate for ''anything'' that would fire, [[EvenBeggarsWontChooseIt they still advised men with Chauchats to just throw them away.]] Note, though, that this was probably more due to a human error than the mechanical problems. By this point in time, the aforementioned "left" had all but run out of professional soldiers or discipline. Getting the hooligan militia that made up their ranks to both learn how to properly handle a Chauchat ''and'' handle it correctly in battle would've probably been a miracle, and its use by professional Western Allied and German soldiers in WWI and Nationalist ones in the Spanish Civil War proved the [[TooDumbToLive real problem with the Spanish left.]]
*** Creator/RLeeErmey tested a Chauchat for the TV show ''Lock 'n' Load'' and discovered that even on a modern gun range it invariably jammed after ''four rounds'' every single time. This could easily be caused by French surplus ammunition. Even in reliable guns like the Lebel and Berthier, misfires and hangfires are absurdly common even by old surplus standards. And, seeing as modern commercially loaded 8mm Lebel is virtually nonexistent, most shooting will be done with old surplus.
*** Non-television firearms experts have [[http://www.forgottenweapons.com/the-worst-gun-ever/ conducted analyses]] and found that the Chauchat's poor reputation is largely undeserved, aside from the .30-06 conversion and poor open-sided magazine design. It is, however, well-documented that the Chauchats manufactured by Gladiator, a bicycle company with no prior firearms experience, tended to have manufacturing errors (including the aforementioned misaligned sights) that
were not present on those made usually discarded by SIDARME. Unfortunately, SIDARME accounted for less than 10% of the production, meaning that most Chauchat gunners had to either learn to manually compensate for the typically misaligned Gladiator sights, or if they were mechanically inclined enough implement their own field repairs to correct them.US troops.
11th May '16 11:53:07 AM erforce
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* Subverted in ''Terminator: Series/TheSarahConnorChronicles'' When John is at a military school, his classmate's rifle has a stovepipe jam, and John, having been raised CrazyPrepared by his mom, clears the jam in about ten seconds, all while teaching his fellow student the drill to do so.

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* Subverted in ''Terminator: Series/TheSarahConnorChronicles'' ''Series/TerminatorTheSarahConnorChronicles'' When John is at a military school, his classmate's rifle has a stovepipe jam, and John, having been raised CrazyPrepared by his mom, clears the jam in about ten seconds, all while teaching his fellow student the drill to do so.
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