History Main / ReliablyUnreliableGuns

9th Sep '17 12:02:39 PM Kadorhal
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*** This is also forcibly {{invoked|Trope}} as a gameplay mechanic in most of the games - basically, all firearms used in combat have identification locks built in. Anyone other than the intended user attempting to fire an ID-locked gun will find the gun completely incapable of working, even with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber; hence why the player can't just break the neck of the first guard they find and use his assault rifle for the whole game, they have to break into an armory and steal one that hasn't been registered yet (or, in ''4'', pay a gun-launderer to remove the ID lock or purchase an unlocked gun directly). ''[=MGS3=]'' is set in 1964, long before ID-locks and nanomachines, so the explanation there is that Naked Snake would prefer to take a fresh, never-fired weapon from an armory rather than risk using a poorly-maintained weapon stolen from an enemy in the field.

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*** This is also forcibly {{invoked|Trope}} as a gameplay mechanic in most of the games - basically, all games. All firearms used in combat in most of the games have identification locks built in. Anyone other than the intended user attempting to fire an ID-locked gun will find the gun completely incapable of working, even with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber; in, hence why the player can't just break the neck of the first guard they find and use his assault rifle for the whole game, they have to break into an armory and steal one game. ''[=MGS4=]'' in particular shows that hasn't been registered yet (or, in ''4'', pay a gun-launderer to remove the ID lock or purchase an unlocked older varieties of locks from the original ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid'' (and presumably ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2SonsOfLiberty MGS2]]'') simply stopped the user from being able to make the trigger-pulling motion with their finger, while more modern locks instead make the gun directly). itself act like the epitome of this trope, failing to fire on pulling the trigger even with a full magazine loaded and a round in the chamber (ironically, this is the game that introduced a character who can launder ID-locked guns for you to use). ''[=MGS3=]'' is set in 1964, long before ID-locks and nanomachines, so the explanation there is that Naked Snake would prefer to take a fresh, never-fired weapon from an armory that is guaranteed to work how it should, rather than risk using a poorly-maintained weapon stolen steal one from an enemy in the field.field and risk getting a poorly-maintained one that could jam when he needs it and get him killed.



** One point in ''3'' touches in this trope in a possible lampshade. You can rescue a rookie soldier who is in hiding and complaining that his gun is jammed, claiming it is useless. If your character has decent Small Guns, you can help him fix the jam, and he will be armed again.

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** One point in ''3'' touches in this trope in a possible lampshade. You can rescue a rookie soldier an initiate in the Brotherhood of Steel who is in hiding and complaining that his gun is jammed, claiming it is useless. If your character has decent Small Guns, you can help him fix the jam, jam by simply pulling back the charging handle, and he will be armed again.
3rd Sep '17 9:21:06 AM JackTheHammer
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** Yet another explanation may be that the MHS trials were rushed and improperly conducted. Some have noted that the announcement of the P320 being the winner was done on a significant date, January 19, which was 24 hours before Creator/DonaldTrump was inaugurated as President of the United States. Theories have been put forth that Army bureaucrats feared that Trump would order a review and even a redo of the over-budget and behind-schedule MHS process (and considering how hard he has been on [[https://infogalactic.com/info/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II other expensive weapons systems]], he very well may have), and rushed the approval process simply to avoid his scrutiny.
** On top of all this, the P320 was already being sued by Steyr [[http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/lawsuit-filed-sig-sauer-steyr-patent-infringement-new-army-p320/ for patent infringement]]. It's probably safe to say, that unless SIG shows some truly exemplary customer service, the P320, which initially was set for a bright future, may end up with a reputation as controversial as the M9, [[{{Irony}} the very gun it was meant to replace.]]

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** Yet another explanation may be that the MHS trials were rushed and improperly conducted.conducted ([[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGI2H0EjDTw more details here)]]. Some have noted that the announcement of the P320 being the winner was done on a significant date, January 19, which was 24 hours before Creator/DonaldTrump was inaugurated as President of the United States. Theories have been put forth that Army bureaucrats feared that Trump would order a review and even a redo of the over-budget and behind-schedule MHS process (and considering how hard he has been on [[https://infogalactic.com/info/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II other expensive weapons systems]], he very well may have), and rushed the approval process simply to avoid his scrutiny.
** On top of all this, the P320 was already being sued by Steyr [[http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/foghorn/lawsuit-filed-sig-sauer-steyr-patent-infringement-new-army-p320/ for patent infringement]]. It's probably safe to say, say that unless SIG shows some truly exemplary customer service, the P320, which initially was set for a bright future, may end up with a reputation as controversial as the M9, [[{{Irony}} the very gun it was meant to replace.]]
22nd Aug '17 4:16:32 PM OddHack
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* This nearly caused an IJustShotMArvinInTheFace moment in ''Film/HeartbreakRidge''. One member of TheSquad claims that his M16 is jammed, and starts [[ArtisticLicenseGunSafety waving it around]] to demonstrate to his sergeant. The sergeant in question grabs the gun and frantically tries to move it so it's not pointed at anyone, and just as he does so the gun goes off, nearly hitting several people including the base's commanding officer.

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* This nearly caused an IJustShotMArvinInTheFace IJustShotMarvinInTheFace moment in ''Film/HeartbreakRidge''. One member of TheSquad claims that his M16 is jammed, and starts [[ArtisticLicenseGunSafety waving it around]] to demonstrate to his sergeant. The sergeant in question grabs the gun and frantically tries to move it so it's not pointed at anyone, and just as he does so the gun goes off, nearly hitting several people including the base's commanding officer.
17th Aug '17 2:47:44 AM Medinoc
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** Although the archetypical Gets Hot, the plasma gun, isn't actually breaking. It's building up too much heat from being repeatedly fired and venting the super-heated gas to keep the gun from exploding. If you're a Space Marine, whose armor is deliberately made especially heat-resistant, no problem; not so much if you're a Guardsman.

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** Although the archetypical Gets Hot, the plasma gun, isn't actually breaking. It's building up too much heat from being repeatedly fired and venting the super-heated gas to keep the gun from exploding. If you're a Space Marine, whose armor is deliberately made especially heat-resistant, no problem; you have a good chance to survive; not so much if you're a Guardsman.



** A common fate in TabletopGame/SpaceHulk is for a Terminator's weapon to jam/overheat/explode, usually when surrounded by the swarm of enemies that require it to shoot full-auto.

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** On tabletop, overheating has a 1/6 chance and is resolved as an automatic wound that can be avoided by armor/invulnerable save, regardless of the weapon's specifics. In the RPG games, it's a 1/10 chance resolved as being shot in the arm with the gun, so it follows the gun's characteristics exactly. And any "best quality" version of a gun is immune to overheating.
** A common fate in TabletopGame/SpaceHulk is for a Terminator's weapon to jam/overheat/explode, usually when surrounded by the swarm of enemies that require required it to shoot full-auto.full-auto in the first place.
15th Aug '17 3:01:30 PM SantosLHalper
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* The Chauchat light machine gun, at least the M1918 variant issued to the American Expeditionary Forces in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. While the original Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine and the fact that Gladiator, a bicycle company with no prior firearms experience, was the one handling most of the production, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe - most instances of them doing so in the modern day are from the simple fact that the weapons are a century old at this point and simply haven't been maintained properly. Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version rechambered from the original 8mm Lebel to .30-06 Springfield. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account the significant differences in cartridge size (8x51 to 7.62x63) and shape (straight-cased Springfield versus tapered Lebel), in addition to several other mistakes (in particular screwing up the conversion from metric to English units - and never noticing this until well ''after'' the war - meaning the M1918's magazine and chamber weren't even the correct size). As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection, and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops before they could fire off a full magazine (most automatic riflemen squadrons giving up on that and switching back to the bolt-action Springfield M1903). Worse is that vastly superior options to the M1918 Chauchat existed at the time, such as the Lewis gun (ignored because [[InterserviceRivalry the AEF's chief of ordnance disliked the weapon's designer, Colonel Isaac Lewis]]) or the Browning Automatic Rifle (not issued in large numbers because, it being an indigenous American design, the AEF [[PatrioticFervor thought it a far better weapon than it actually was]] and was fearful of the enemy stealing and reverse-engineering it).

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* The Chauchat light machine gun, at least the M1918 variant issued to the American Expeditionary Forces in UsefulNotes/WorldWarI. While the original Chauchat did indeed have some problems, most of which had to do with its open-sided magazine and the fact that Gladiator, a bicycle company with no prior firearms experience, was the one handling most of the production, it did not jam after several shots as some pop-historians would have you believe - most instances of them doing so in the modern day are from the simple fact that the weapons are a century old at this point and simply haven't been maintained properly. \\
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Most of the weapon's bad reputation comes from the American M1918 version rechambered from the original 8mm Lebel to .30-06 Springfield. The M1918 was, in short, a godawful conversion that didn't take into account the significant differences in cartridge size (8x51 to 7.62x63) and shape (straight-cased Springfield versus tapered Lebel), in addition to several other mistakes (in particular screwing up the conversion from metric to English units - and never noticing this until well ''after'' the war - meaning the M1918's magazine and chamber weren't even the correct size). As a result, the majority of M1918s didn't pass factory inspection, and the few that did make it to the frontline experienced severe jamming issues and were usually discarded by US troops before they could fire off a full magazine (most automatic riflemen squadrons giving up on that and switching back to the bolt-action Springfield M1903). \\
\\
Worse is that vastly superior options to the M1918 Chauchat existed at the time, such as the Lewis gun (ignored because [[InterserviceRivalry the AEF's chief of ordnance disliked the weapon's designer, Colonel Isaac Lewis]]) or the Browning Automatic Rifle (not issued in large numbers because, it being an indigenous American design, the AEF [[PatrioticFervor thought it a far better weapon than it actually was]] and was fearful of the enemy stealing and reverse-engineering it).
12th Aug '17 5:25:21 AM Edvardelis
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* A less famous, but no less awful example of light machine gun design was the Italian [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_30 Breda 30]] which saw service in World War 2. Its [[http://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-machine-guns/breda-model-30/ numerous design faults]] teamed up to make it an ''extremely'' unreliable weapon, especially in the desert conditions of North Africa. The gun attempted to use a blowback system of operation to reduce complexity, but using simple blowback for a high pressure rifle round required the rounds to be '''oiled''' to prevent them from being ripped apart during extraction. This didn't always work, leaving the front part of spent casings hopelessly jammed in the chamber, plus the oil attracted dirt into the working areas of the weapon, causing another type of jam. Furthermore, the gun used the same bad idea as the Chauchat with an open-sided magazine that invited even ''more'' dirt onto the oiled rounds and into the operating mechanism. On top of ''that'', the closed-bolt design reduced air circulation and also put rounds in the chamber at risk of cooking off, which could injure or ''kill'' the gunner. Oh, and the magazine was non-detachable, making use of special 20 round strips to reload it, which had the effect of drastically slowing the rate of fire. So even when the gun actually managed to fire one would wind up spending most of their time reloading it.

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* A less famous, but no less awful example of light machine gun design was the Italian [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_30 Breda 30]] which saw service in World War 2. Its [[http://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-machine-guns/breda-model-30/ numerous design faults]] teamed up to make it an ''extremely'' unreliable weapon, especially in the desert conditions of North Africa. The gun attempted to use a blowback system of operation to reduce complexity, but using simple blowback for a high pressure rifle round required the rounds to be '''oiled''' to prevent them from being ripped apart during extraction. This didn't always work, leaving the front part of spent casings hopelessly jammed in the chamber, plus the oil attracted dirt into the working areas of the weapon, causing another type of jam. Furthermore, the gun used the same bad idea as the Chauchat with an open-sided magazine that invited even ''more'' dirt onto the oiled rounds and into the operating mechanism. On top of ''that'', the closed-bolt design reduced air circulation and also put rounds in the chamber at risk of cooking off, which could injure or ''kill'' the gunner. Oh, and the magazine was non-detachable, not meant to be detached and replaced under normal conditions, instead making use of special 20 round strips stripper clips to reload it, which had the effect of drastically slowing the rate of fire. So even when the gun actually managed to fire one would wind up spending most of their time reloading it.
9th Aug '17 7:12:52 PM JackTheHammer
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* The SIG SAUER P320. Originally released in 2014, the pistol largely flew under the radar of most gun buyers, until it was a finalist in the U.S. military's Modular Handgun System trials to find a replacement for the aging Beretta M9. On January 19, 2017, the P320 was announced as the winner of the MHS competition, and the U.S. Army would move to adopt it as its new duty handgun later that year. Interest in the P320 spiked after this, and its newfound fame led to ''pistoleros'' all across America [[ColbertBump buying it up]]. Then, six months later in July 2017, rumors started circulating that a certain police department was planning to suspend use of the pistol due to it not being drop-safe (i.e. the gun isn't safe to drop because it may fire). A week later on August 3, 2017, these rumors were confirmed when the Dallas Police Department did precisely that. Less than 24 hours later, SIG issued a statement claiming the pistols were safe, concluding with the sentence, "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in [[ExactWords the U.S. commercial market]], with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date." What followed after this could only be described as [[TemptingFate the heavens deciding to strike down]] [[{{Hubris}} the haughty]]:

to:

* The SIG SAUER P320. Originally released in 2014, the pistol largely flew under the radar of most gun buyers, until it was a finalist in the U.S. military's Modular Handgun System trials to find a replacement for the aging Beretta M9. On January 19, 2017, the P320 was announced as the winner of the MHS competition, and the U.S. Army would move to adopt it as its new duty handgun later that year. Interest in the P320 spiked after this, and its newfound fame led to ''pistoleros'' all across America [[ColbertBump buying it up]]. Then, six months later in July 2017, rumors started circulating that a certain police department was planning to suspend use of the pistol due to it not being drop-safe (i.e. the gun isn't safe to drop because it may fire). A week later on August 3, 2, 2017, these rumors were confirmed when the Dallas Police Department did precisely that. Less than 24 48 hours later, SIG issued a statement claiming the pistols were safe, concluding with the sentence, "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in [[ExactWords the U.S. commercial market]], with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date." What followed after this could only be described as [[TemptingFate the heavens deciding to strike down]] [[{{Hubris}} the haughty]]:
8th Aug '17 10:52:26 PM JackTheHammer
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Added DiffLines:

*** As a matter of fact, one video [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfe9silCIm8 even shows the P320 firing even when dropped right-side up]], which may debunk the "heavy trigger" explanation and may mean the issue is more serious than initially thought.
8th Aug '17 10:12:05 PM JackTheHammer
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** A few days later on August 7, 2017, a [[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_bcq0WcWuxWN3l1SHkwQ243TWs/view lawsuit]] suddenly surfaced that had been filed on August 4 by a Stamford, Connecticut [[SWATTeam Special Response Team]] officer who claimed he had been seriously injured when his P320 had shot him in the leg after it dropped ''while the gun was still in its holster.'' [[HumiliationConga The same day this was revealed]], the firearms retailer Omaha Outdoors [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA released a video]] proving the gun was not drop-safe and announced they were suspending all sales of the P320. The cause was '''tentatively''' determined to be because the P320's trigger is heavier than what a trigger on a polymer-framed gun would normally be, and because of this, when dropped at an angle that allows the slide to hit the ground, the trigger will move just far enough back to discharge a shot. The one P320 variant that did not fire at all when dropped was the P320 X-Five, a version of the trigger with a lighter trigger. [[labelnote:note]]Other polymer guns such as Glocks or the Smith and Wesson M&P avoid this by having light triggers and some kind of safety on it that requires actual pressure on the front to move the trigger back; the P320 has no such safety[[/labelnote]] In response, SIG [[https://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/sig-sauer-issues-voluntary-upgrade-p320-pistol/ issued a press release]] claiming they would offer a to-be-determined "voluntary upgrade" of all P320 pistols. It didn't stop a whole slew of videos uploaded to Youtube of other P320 owners testing to see if their guns were drop-safe... and more often than not, they weren't.

to:

** A few days later on August 7, 2017, a [[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_bcq0WcWuxWN3l1SHkwQ243TWs/view lawsuit]] suddenly surfaced that had been filed on August 4 by a Stamford, Connecticut [[SWATTeam Special Response Team]] officer who claimed he had been seriously injured when his P320 had shot him in the leg after it dropped ''while the gun was still in its holster.'' [[HumiliationConga The same day this was revealed]], the firearms retailer Omaha Outdoors [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA released a video]] proving the gun was not drop-safe and announced they were suspending all sales of the P320. The cause was '''tentatively''' determined to be because the P320's trigger is heavier than what a trigger on a polymer-framed gun would normally be, and because of this, when dropped at an angle that allows the slide to hit the ground, the trigger will move just far enough back to discharge a shot. The one P320 variant that did not fire at all when dropped was the P320 X-Five, a version of the trigger with firearm that has a lighter trigger. [[labelnote:note]]Other polymer guns such as Glocks or the Smith and Wesson M&P avoid this by having light triggers and some kind of safety on it that requires actual pressure on the front to move the trigger back; the P320 has no such safety[[/labelnote]] In response, SIG [[https://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/sig-sauer-issues-voluntary-upgrade-p320-pistol/ issued a press release]] claiming they would offer a to-be-determined "voluntary upgrade" of all P320 pistols. It didn't stop a whole slew of videos uploaded to Youtube of other P320 owners testing to see if their guns were drop-safe... and more often than not, they weren't.
8th Aug '17 10:09:55 PM JackTheHammer
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* The SIG SAUER P320. Originally released in 2014, the pistol largely flew under the radar of most gun buyers, until it was a finalist in the U.S. military's Modular Handgun System trials to find a replacement for the aging Beretta M9. On January 19, 2017, the P320 was announced as the winner of the MHS competition, and the U.S. Army would move to adopt it as its new duty handgun later that year. Interest in the P320 spiked after this, and its newfound fame led to ''pistoleros'' all across America [[FollowTheLeader buying it up]]. Then, six months later in July 2017, rumors started circulating that a certain police department was planning to suspend use of the pistol due to it not being drop-safe (i.e. the gun isn't safe to drop because it may fire). A week later on August 3, 2017, these rumors were confirmed when the Dallas Police Department did precisely that. Less than 24 hours later, SIG issued a statement claiming the pistols were safe, concluding with the sentence, "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in [[ExactWords the U.S. commercial market]], with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date." What followed after this could only be described as [[TemptingFate the heavens deciding to strike down]] [[{{Hubris}} the haughty]]:

to:

* The SIG SAUER P320. Originally released in 2014, the pistol largely flew under the radar of most gun buyers, until it was a finalist in the U.S. military's Modular Handgun System trials to find a replacement for the aging Beretta M9. On January 19, 2017, the P320 was announced as the winner of the MHS competition, and the U.S. Army would move to adopt it as its new duty handgun later that year. Interest in the P320 spiked after this, and its newfound fame led to ''pistoleros'' all across America [[FollowTheLeader [[ColbertBump buying it up]]. Then, six months later in July 2017, rumors started circulating that a certain police department was planning to suspend use of the pistol due to it not being drop-safe (i.e. the gun isn't safe to drop because it may fire). A week later on August 3, 2017, these rumors were confirmed when the Dallas Police Department did precisely that. Less than 24 hours later, SIG issued a statement claiming the pistols were safe, concluding with the sentence, "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in [[ExactWords the U.S. commercial market]], with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date." What followed after this could only be described as [[TemptingFate the heavens deciding to strike down]] [[{{Hubris}} the haughty]]:
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