History Main / PronounTrouble

28th Mar '17 8:41:45 AM 6
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* On {{Scandal}}, a flashback to when Cyrus was closeted has him talking to Fitz about seeing someone new (James). Fitz actually handles it really well; he uses the terms "person" and "this person", leaves the door open for Cyrus to tell him more if Cyrus decides to, and upon establishing Cyrus is happy and in love, declares, "Then, that's all that matters." Cyrus, on the other hand- "it" and "they" are used when, in both instances, "this person" would work just as well for him as it did for Fitz. Granted, trying to tell the President of the United States he has a gay Chief of Staff who is dating an opinionated male journalist who was critical of said President's campaign likely would be an extremely stressful situation. Whether how Cyrus does eventually come out is a better or worse way to do so from a professional standpoint, it's certainly a big HeartwarmingMoment.
21st Mar '17 8:17:21 AM wolfpuppy
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* There's no consistent set of pronouns for [[BenevolentAI The Machine]] in ''Series/PersonOfInterest" where everyone seems to refer to her differently. Her creator, Finch, uses "it" while her analog interface, the person she talks to most often, uses "she" while the main character, Reese, uses "he" but tends to avoid pronouns. The majority of secondary characters don't know what The Machine is and tend to assume that she's a collective and use "they". Generally, though, the show used "it" to refer to her early on and "she" to refer to her later, once Root came along and especially [[spoiler: after The Machine took Root's voice]].

to:

* There's no consistent set of pronouns for [[BenevolentAI The Machine]] in ''Series/PersonOfInterest" ''Series/PersonOfInterest'' where everyone seems to refer to her differently. Her creator, Finch, uses "it" while her analog interface, the person she talks to most often, uses "she" while the main character, Reese, uses "he" but tends to avoid pronouns. The majority of secondary characters don't know what The Machine is and tend to assume that she's a collective and use "they". Generally, though, the show used "it" to refer to her early on and "she" to refer to her later, once Root came along and especially [[spoiler: after The Machine took Root's voice]].
21st Mar '17 8:16:43 AM wolfpuppy
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* There's no consistent set of pronouns for [[BenevolentAI The Machine]] in ''Series/PersonOfInterest" where everyone seems to refer to her differently. Her creator, Finch, uses "it" while her analog interface, the person she talks to most often, uses "she" while the main character, Reese, uses "he" but tends to avoid pronouns. The majority of secondary characters don't know what The Machine is and tend to assume that she's a collective and use "they". Generally, though, the show used "it" to refer to her early on and "she" to refer to her later, once Root came along and especially [[spoiler: after The Machine took Root's voice]].
19th Mar '17 9:21:05 PM merotoker
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** In the original Japanese version, Renamon was written to be "genderless"/androgynous, and accordingly uses the gender-neutral ''watashi'' as a [[JapanesePronouns first-person pronoun]]. Since ''watashi'' is also commonly seen as a casual female pronoun, most dubs went with Renamon being seen and treated as female, which led to an odd situation when a conversation late in the series had Renamon awkwardly answer the question "you're a girl, right?" with a statement that Digimon have NoBiologicalSex (implying a lack of identification or interest in gender). Because of this, the majority of the non-Japanese fanbase thinks of Renamon as female, and fansubs even follow suit. The German dub outright made Renamon male, leading to an even more awkward situation when Renamon evolves into the ''extremely'' feminine-looking and -behaving Sakuyamon (granted, through a FusionDance with the female Ruki).

to:

** In the original Japanese version, Renamon was written to be "genderless"/androgynous, and accordingly uses the gender-neutral ''watashi'' as a [[JapanesePronouns [[UsefulNotes/JapanesePronouns first-person pronoun]]. Since ''watashi'' is also commonly seen as a casual female pronoun, most dubs went with Renamon being seen and treated as female, which led to an odd situation when a conversation late in the series had Renamon awkwardly answer the question "you're a girl, right?" with a statement that Digimon have NoBiologicalSex (implying a lack of identification or interest in gender). Because of this, the majority of the non-Japanese fanbase thinks of Renamon as female, and fansubs even follow suit. The German dub outright made Renamon male, leading to an even more awkward situation when Renamon evolves into the ''extremely'' feminine-looking and -behaving Sakuyamon (granted, through a FusionDance with the female Ruki).



* In Hebrew, second-person pronouns, most verbs, and all adjectives also decline by gender. In ''Film/FrozenDays'', [[spoiler:the female protagonist is very unsettled when she goes ‘back’ to work as a guard in ‘Azrieli as ‘[[GenderBlenderName Alex]]’, the man whose identity she has assumed, and the rest of the guards act as if she’s always been Alex, even addressing her as a female.]]

to:

* In Hebrew, second-person pronouns, most verbs, and all adjectives also decline by gender. In ''Film/FrozenDays'', [[spoiler:the female protagonist is very unsettled when she goes ‘back’ to work as a guard in ‘Azrieli as ‘[[GenderBlenderName Alex]]’, the man whose identity she has assumed, and the rest of the guards act as if she’s always been Alex, even addressing her as a female.]]female]].



* Creator/UrsulaKLeGuin's ''Literature/TheLeftHandOfDarkness'' has a near-human race whose members are normally of a neuter sex; during their reproductive cycle, members will switch to male or female, depending on the circumstances. Naturally, this leads to problems with the visiting male human from Earth. The natives' language has words for their sexes during their cycle, but their masculine pronoun for a fixed-sex being is reserved exclusively for animals and "defective" members of their race. It would be like using "it" to describe a member of their race during their neuter cycle.The visiting always-male human from Earth, however, simply uses "he" when referring to natives that are in the androgynous part of their cycle.

to:

* Creator/UrsulaKLeGuin's ''Literature/TheLeftHandOfDarkness'' has a near-human race whose members are normally of a neuter sex; during their reproductive cycle, members will switch to male or female, depending on the circumstances. Naturally, this leads to problems with the visiting male human from Earth. The natives' language has words for their sexes during their cycle, but their masculine pronoun for a fixed-sex being is reserved exclusively for animals and "defective" members of their race. It would be like using "it" to describe a member of their race during their neuter cycle. The visiting always-male human from Earth, however, simply uses "he" when referring to natives that are in the androgynous part of their cycle.



* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'': Sweets, a minor character who's a {{hermaphrodite}}, is referred to with alternatingly pronouns; "he" one paragraph, "she" the next.
* In Creator/EmmaBull's ''Literature/BoneDance'', [[spoiler:Sparrow is neither male nor female, and as such, causes some confusion among some other characters at one point: "Take this and cover her." "Her?" And when a hoodoo ceremony is performed, Sparrow is referred to as "this person" wherever the pronouns usually would go.]]

to:

* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'': Sweets, a minor character who's a {{hermaphrodite}}, is referred to with alternatingly alternating pronouns; "he" one paragraph, "she" the next.
* In Creator/EmmaBull's ''Literature/BoneDance'', [[spoiler:Sparrow is neither male nor female, and as such, causes some confusion among some other characters at one point: "Take this and cover her." "Her?" And when a hoodoo ceremony is performed, Sparrow is referred to as "this person" wherever the pronouns usually would go.]]go]].



* In ''Literature/TheDresdenFiles'', Harry Dresden finds himself facing this problem when trying to talk about the skinwalker Shagnasty in ''Turn Coat''. It turns out there are few ways to adequately gender a sexless demigod of suffering. Leads to a CrowningMomentOfFunny when he accidentally describes this trope as "gender issues" in front of [[LoveableSexManiac Bob the]] [[DeadpanSnarker Skull]].

to:

* In ''Literature/TheDresdenFiles'', Harry Dresden finds himself facing this problem when trying to talk about the skinwalker Shagnasty in ''Turn Coat''. It turns out there are few ways to adequately gender a sexless demigod of suffering. Leads to a CrowningMomentOfFunny when he accidentally describes this trope as "gender issues" in front of [[LoveableSexManiac [[LovableSexManiac Bob the]] [[DeadpanSnarker Skull]].






** The J'naii in the ''Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration'' episode "The Outcast" are an andogynous species for whom gender is "primitive". Their pronoun for themselves is supposedly difficult to translate; it comes through to us as "one".

to:

** The J'naii in the ''Series/StarTrekTheNextGeneration'' episode "The Outcast" are an andogynous androgynous species for whom gender is "primitive". Their pronoun for themselves is supposedly difficult to translate; it comes through to us as "one".



* In ''VideoGame/{{Prototype}}'', Blackwatch is very specific when they say that Alex Mercer must be referred to as an "it", not a "he"; [[spoiler: and it turns out, ''they're right''. "Alex" is revealed to be a shapeshifting, sentient virus that originated as a vial of inanimate goo rather than an infected human, with no real gender - or identity, or shape. He does, however, end up wearing a male form most of the time since he can only use his weapon and armor powers in his default shape. And there is a distinct shortage of women to consume, but that's another trope.]]

to:

* In ''VideoGame/{{Prototype}}'', Blackwatch is very specific when they say that Alex Mercer must be referred to as an "it", not a "he"; [[spoiler: and it turns out, ''they're right''. "Alex" is revealed to be a shapeshifting, sentient virus that originated as a vial of inanimate goo rather than an infected human, with no real gender - or identity, or shape. He does, however, end up wearing a male form most of the time since he can only use his weapon and armor powers in his default shape. And there is a distinct shortage of women to consume, but that's another trope.]]trope]].



* In ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}}'', [[spoiler: Naoto]]'s social link runs into a translation problem for this reason. In the original Japanese, once you leveled up her social link far enough, you got a scene where [[spoiler: she asks if you prefer her using "boku" or "atashi" to refer to herself.]] In the English version, the scene is changed to being about the pitch of her voice.

to:

* In ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}}'', [[spoiler: Naoto]]'s social link runs into a translation problem for this reason. In the original Japanese, once you leveled up her social link far enough, you got a scene where [[spoiler: she asks if you prefer her using "boku" or "atashi" to refer to herself.]] herself]]. In the English version, the scene is changed to being about the pitch of her voice.
5th Mar '17 8:34:16 PM Jeduthun
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* The {{Trope Namer|s}} is "WesternAnimation/RabbitSeasoning": The entire plot – and classically so – is based on Bugs' confusing Elmer Fudd with a very clever series of misplaced pronouns, and Daffy – himself trying to avoid getting shot - forever misspeaking and, growing more exasperated as he's repeatedly wounded, mixing up the pronouns even more. The sneaky but very smart Bugs, as always, emerges unscathed while Daffy is blown to bits!

to:

* The {{Trope Namer|s}} is "WesternAnimation/RabbitSeasoning": The entire plot – and classically so – is based on Bugs' confusing Elmer Fudd with a very clever series of misplaced pronouns, and Daffy – himself trying to avoid getting shot - forever misspeaking and, growing more exasperated as he's repeatedly wounded, mixing up the pronouns even more. The sneaky but very smart Bugs, as always, emerges unscathed while Daffy is blown to bits!bits! (However, it's technically [[ThisIndexIsNotAnExample not an example of its eponymous trope]], as Daffy's trouble is not with gender but with basic pronouns such as "you" and "me.")
15th Feb '17 11:42:41 AM MagBas
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Arguably, Saint Ajora in ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyTactics'' was victim to this. The original PSX version of the game (both English and Japanese) referred to Ajora Glabados as a he. However, during the game he's [[spoiler: possessed by the female Lucavi Altima]] and is also [[spoiler: reincarnated into the female body of Alma Beoulve]], though no one ever refers to Ajora as a she even in these cases. A Japanese-only Ultimania release refers to Ajora as female, as does Final Fantasy 12 in a fleeting reference, but the PSP retranslation keeps the male pronouns.
14th Feb '17 5:29:44 AM StarTropes
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** Shortly after Ezri becomes the next host of Dax on ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'' (an arrangement she never sought), she gets mixed up between first- and third-person pronouns when referring to previous hosts.
6th Feb '17 7:12:35 PM diaaru
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* As the concept of nonbinary gender identification has gained more notice, this problem often crops up with people attempting to be polite. Many just use he/she based on their initial assumptions. Others who identify as "masculine but not entirely male" will use he while "feminine but not female" use she; others who identify as both or neither might use either, or, and even alternate between both; and to top it all off there's a growing trend of coming up with entirely new pronouns or adopting others'. It's often a good rule of thumb to just ask first, and default to singular "they" if you can't ask. And if you value your life, never refer to them as "{{it|IsDehumanizing}}" unless prompted.

to:

* As the concept of nonbinary gender identification has gained more notice, this problem often crops up with people attempting to be polite. Many just use he/she based on their initial assumptions. Others who identify as "masculine but not entirely male" will use he while "feminine but not female" use she; others who identify as both or neither might use either, or, and even alternate between both; and to top it all off there's a growing trend of coming up with entirely new pronouns or adopting others'. It's often a good rule of thumb to just ask first, and default to singular "they" if you can't ask. And if you value your life, never Most consider it rude to refer to them as "{{it|IsDehumanizing}}" unless prompted.
26th Jan '17 10:59:54 PM PaulA
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Western example: In ''[[Literature/{{Foundation}} Foundation's Edge]]'' and ''Foundation and Earth'' by Creator/IsaacAsimov, Gaia is a HiveMind where all residents of Gaia ''are'' Gaia and do not consider themselves individuals, which necessitated two Foundationers who came to Gaia (and who did not understand the HiveMind concept) to coin the hilarious pronoun I/you/we/he/she/Gaia (oftentimes shortened). Arguable {{Narm}}.
** There's also the matter of the [[spoiler: Solarians]], who, being intersex and considering themselves above concepts of 'male' or 'female', give the characters some trouble about what pronouns to use. Generally, they use "it", though for the [[spoiler: Solarian child]] they pick up along the way, they settle on "her".

to:

* Western example: In ''[[Literature/{{Foundation}} Foundation's Edge]]'' ''Literature/FoundationsEdge'' and ''Foundation and Earth'' ''Literature/FoundationAndEarth'' by Creator/IsaacAsimov, Creator/IsaacAsimov:
**
Gaia is a HiveMind where all residents of Gaia ''are'' Gaia and do not consider themselves individuals, which necessitated two Foundationers who came to Gaia (and who did not understand the HiveMind concept) to coin the hilarious pronoun I/you/we/he/she/Gaia (oftentimes shortened). Arguable {{Narm}}.
shortened).
** There's also the matter of the [[spoiler: Solarians]], [[spoiler:Solarians]], who, being intersex and considering themselves above concepts of 'male' or 'female', give the characters some trouble about what pronouns to use. Generally, they use "it", though for the [[spoiler: Solarian [[spoiler:Solarian child]] they pick up along the way, they settle on "her".
21st Jan '17 3:24:21 PM Cindy67917
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* The writer of ''Manga/AttackOnTitan'' has officially stated that Hange Zoe should be referred to with either gender-neutral pronouns or with both "he" and "she" in equal measure. This hasn't stopped several fan translations from assigning them one or the other binary gender. To add to the confusion, the anime portrays Zoe with much more noticeable breasts than the manga does.

to:

* The writer of ''Manga/AttackOnTitan'' has officially stated that Hange Zoe should be referred to with either gender-neutral pronouns or with both "he" and "she" in equal measure. This hasn't stopped several fan translations from assigning them one or the other binary gender. To add to the confusion, the anime and the live action film portrays Zoe with much more noticeable breasts than the manga does.
This list shows the last 10 events of 148. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.PronounTrouble