History Main / PragmaticHero

18th Sep '16 7:38:11 PM wname8037
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* Professional killer Kiritsugu Emiya from ''LightNovel/FateZero'' is a very good example of this. He has absolutely no problem lying, manipulating, and murdering defenseless and even innocent people in order to save lives. Saber, a knight, criticizes him for this, accusing him of being dishonorable, however he points out that his methods always minimize the total amount of potential deaths, whereas Saber's "honorable" fighting style glorifies war and causes more deaths than is necessary.
17th Sep '16 3:36:22 AM Euodiachloris
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** Daenerys Targaryen is... learning. Depending on you ask in-world, however, the [[NotQuiteTheRightThing various outcomes]] prove she's a [[PragmaticVillainy Villain]], not a Hero. However, in reality, she tries to go in doing the right thing whatever the cost, bleeds for every mistake she makes and is genuinely ''learning'' from both her success and failures -- despite her passionate stubbornness. The problem is, gaining experience with pragmatism through trial and error (and a massive resolve to not be like [[StupidEvil her brother]]) is only really a good way to wind up in deep, deep trouble while running in circles.
** Like Daenerys, Jon Snow has to start climbing the learning curve at top speed when he arrives at the Wall. He also finds out that trial and error with a fairly flexible code (for a Stark) while trying to be Good gives mixed results, to the point of putting strain on both his heroism and sanity at points. But, on the plus side, he doesn't get himself into ''as much'' trouble as his less pragmatic family members. Poor Arya (although not one of the particularly unpragmatic, rigid Starks), by contrast, starts to lose her grip on her original "hero" setting by having to become as pragmatic as humanly possible to simply ''survive''.

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** Daenerys Targaryen is... learning. Depending on you ask in-world, however, the [[NotQuiteTheRightThing various outcomes]] prove she's a [[PragmaticVillainy Villain]], not a Hero. However, in reality, she tries to go in doing the right thing whatever the cost, bleeds for every mistake she makes and is genuinely ''learning'' from both her success and failures -- despite her passionate stubbornness. The problem is, gaining experience with pragmatism through trial and error (and a massive resolve to not be like [[StupidEvil her brother]]) is only really a good way to wind up in deep, deep trouble while running in circles.
circles. Having a properly accredited teacher you actually listen to is a helpful thing when learning to hero, kiddies.
** Like Daenerys, Jon Snow has to start climbing the learning curve at top speed when he arrives at the Wall. He also finds out that trial and error with a fairly flexible code (for a Stark) while trying to be Good Good... gives mixed results, to the point of putting results. It heaps strain on both his personal safety, heroism and sanity at points.times. But, on the plus side, he doesn't get himself into ''as much'' trouble as his less pragmatic family members. Poor Arya (although not one of the particularly unpragmatic, rigid Starks), by contrast, starts to lose her grip on her original "hero" setting by having to become as coldly pragmatic as humanly possible to simply to ''survive''.
17th Sep '16 3:26:42 AM Euodiachloris
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** Daenerys Targaryen is... learning. Depending on you ask in-world, however, the [[NotQuiteTheRightThing various outcomes]] prove she's a [[PragmaticVillainy Villain]], not a Hero. However, in reality, she tries to go in doing the right thing whatever the cost, bleeds for every mistake she makes and is genuinely ''learning'' from both her success and failures. The problem is, gaining experience with pragmatism through trial and error (and a massive resolve to not be like [[StupidEvil her brother]]) is a good way to wind up in deep, deep trouble.

to:

** Daenerys Targaryen is... learning. Depending on you ask in-world, however, the [[NotQuiteTheRightThing various outcomes]] prove she's a [[PragmaticVillainy Villain]], not a Hero. However, in reality, she tries to go in doing the right thing whatever the cost, bleeds for every mistake she makes and is genuinely ''learning'' from both her success and failures. failures -- despite her passionate stubbornness. The problem is, gaining experience with pragmatism through trial and error (and a massive resolve to not be like [[StupidEvil her brother]]) is only really a good way to wind up in deep, deep trouble.trouble while running in circles.
16th Aug '16 9:22:09 AM TheHeroHartmut
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* Batman in ''WesternAnimation/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries''.

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* Batman in ''WesternAnimation/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries''. His manipulative methods ultimately served to drive his proteges away from him, [[ComicBook/{{Robin}} one]] by [[ComicBook/{{Batgirl}} one]], until age finally caught up with him, [[WesternAnimation/BatmanBeyond leaving him a miserable old man alone in his mansion.]]
1st Aug '16 9:13:15 AM MacedonianKing
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* Professional killer Kiritsugu Emiya from ''Anime/FateZero'' is a very good example of this. He has absolutely no problem lying, manipulating, and murdering defenseless and even innocent people in order to save lives. Saber, a knight, criticizes him for this, accusing him of being dishonorable, however he points out that his methods always minimize the total amount of potential deaths, whereas Saber's "honorable" fighting style glorifies war and causes more deaths than is necessary.

to:

* Professional killer Kiritsugu Emiya from ''Anime/FateZero'' ''LightNovel/FateZero'' is a very good example of this. He has absolutely no problem lying, manipulating, and murdering defenseless and even innocent people in order to save lives. Saber, a knight, criticizes him for this, accusing him of being dishonorable, however he points out that his methods always minimize the total amount of potential deaths, whereas Saber's "honorable" fighting style glorifies war and causes more deaths than is necessary.
1st Aug '16 9:12:26 AM MacedonianKing
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* Professional killer Kiritsugu Emiya from ''Anime/FateZero'' is a very good example of this. He has absolutely no problem lying, manipulating, and murdering defenseless and even innocent people in order to save lives. Saber, a knight, criticizes him for this, accusing him of being dishonorable, however he points out that his methods always minimize the total amount of potential deaths, whereas Saber's "honorable" fighting style glorifies war and causes more deaths than is necessary.
27th Jul '16 6:04:01 PM SSJMagus
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* ''Series/LawAndOrderSpecialVictimsUnit'': Elliot Stabler, possibly. He uses IDidWhatIHadToDo as a CatchPhrase, because he is highly moral, but also sometimes too determined in achieving what he thinks are the best results. He has a closure rate of 97%, after all.

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* ''Series/LawAndOrderSpecialVictimsUnit'': Elliot Stabler, possibly. He uses IDidWhatIHadToDo as a CatchPhrase, because he is highly moral, but also sometimes too determined in achieving what he thinks are the best results. He has a closure rate of 97%, after all. [[spoiler:He finally hangs up the badge when "what he had to do" becomes too much for Stabler, in the form of having to shoot a child rape victim who had accidentally killed innocent bystanders while also (quite deliberately) killing her rapist.]]
27th Jul '16 5:59:41 PM SSJMagus
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* ''Series/BuffyTheVampireSlayer'': Giles, later in the series. Buffy avoids this. Faith doesn't, when a good girl she will ShootTheDog and seek out RevengeByProxy, as well a keeping a cynical, pragmatic and decadent attitude, but is altruistic just the same.

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* ''Series/BuffyTheVampireSlayer'': Giles, later in the series. [[spoiler:For example, he has no problem with killing the unwilling human host of a GodOfEvil in order to also kill the god.]] Buffy avoids this. Faith doesn't, when a good girl she will ShootTheDog and seek out RevengeByProxy, as well a keeping a cynical, pragmatic and decadent attitude, but is altruistic just the same.
27th Jul '16 2:43:42 PM wname8037
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* In ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'', [[spoiler:Itachi seems to be one of these, as revealed by his comments after he is brought BackFromTheDead. Despite all the [[DirtyBusiness terrible things he has been forced to do]], he still believes in the ideal of the Will of Fire, and considers himself a shinobi of Konoha.]]



* [[Anime/CodeGeass Lelouch Lamperouge]] is a master at this trope, being more than willing to do manipulate people and act immorally to achieve his goals. Occasionally he's even able to use the Britannians' sense of honor against them, as when he accepts a Britannian commander's offer of a one-on-one duel....only to collapse the platform holding much of the commander's men so his own forces can sweep in and attack.



* Much of ''LightNovel/FateZero'' is spent describing Emiya Kiritsugu's cold pragmatism. Originally, he wanted to be "a hero of justice" who would help the weak and needy, but a necessarily brutal career turned him into an assassin capable of committing atrocities in his belief that the needs of the many outweigh those of the few. For Kiritsugu, sacrificing a hundred people to save a thousand is something he would do without batting an eye. Despite this, Kiritsugu never gives up his ideal of achieving a everlasting peace without conflict, and is willing to do anything necessary to bring such a utopia around sooner. This leads to his willing participation in the Holy Grail War for the artifact's supposed wish-granting power.
** Honorable knight Saber despises her master Kiritsugu for using ruthless and dishonorable methods to achieve victory. Kiritsugu retorts that not only do his methods end the war quickly, but they also leave survivors averse to further bloodshed. Meanwhile, chivalry perpetuates war by ennobling and glamorizing it.
** [[spoiler: As a child, he is forced to gun down his own father when the senior Emiya's research into immortality infects an entire island with vampirism. At the end of this, he meets freelance cleaner Natalia, who trains him and becomes his mother figure.]]
** [[spoiler: Many years later, he makes the choice to kill Natalia during a botched assassination contact aboard an airliner. The target magus booby-traps his own body to release swarms of bees that irreversibly zombify anyone they stung. Knowing that the airliner could endanger entire cities if allowed to land, Kiritsugu shoots it down even though his mother/mentor is on board. In their last exchange, she seems to approve.]]
** [[spoiler: His ideals are finally tested when he has won the Holy Grail War and obtained said wish-granting Grail. The newfound knowledge that it would bring "peace" to the world through bloody means little different than his own leads Kiritsugu to destroy the artifact instead.]]
*** The consequences of his actions in ''LightNovel/FateZero'' lead Kiritsugu to pass down his ideals to his adopted son Shirou, who later strives to become [[AllLovingHero a hero who doesn't sacrifice anybody]] in [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight his adolescence]].



* ''Series/{{Smallville}}'':
** Has [[UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans Tess]] [[BecauseDestinySaysSo Mercer]], who defines herself and people who are really heroes, as the people who are ready to do the dirty work for the good of the many.

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* ''Series/{{Smallville}}'':
** Has [[UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans Tess]] [[BecauseDestinySaysSo Mercer]], who defines herself and people who are really heroes, as the people who are ready to do the dirty work for the good of the many.
''Series/{{Smallville}}''



* In ''Series/{{House}}'', [[DrJerk House]] is a very ...complicated example. He constantly complains about how terrible the world is and how HumansAreBastards but it somehow doesn't stop him from going to often desperate (and illegal!) measures to help people. He's just a JerkWithAHeartOfGold...[[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation or he's a]] [[JerkWithAHeartOfJerk Jerk With A Huge, Fragile Ego And One Hell Of An Inferiority Complex]]. Like they said, complicated. While it is repeatedly stated that he only cares about the puzzle, there are some moments of ambiguity, in which House [[SuspiciouslySpecificDenial always comes up with an excuse.]]



* Princess Bubblegum from ''WesternAnimation/AdventureTime'', of all people, given some of the depths she will go to at times. Finn and Jake have even [[WhatTheHellHero called her out a couple times]], though not always face to face.



* ''WesternAnimation/{{Daria}}'' is as cynical as it gets, but she deeply values her personal integrity and any slip maintaining it is deeply upsetting to her.
26th Jun '16 2:11:00 PM NordRonnoc
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* Ethan Sunderland, [[VideoGame/FalloutNewVegas aka the Courier]], is depicted as this in ''[[Fanfic/MassFoundations Mass Foundations: Redemption in the Stars]]''. To start, he killed a batarian thug, stopping him from mugging him and looted the corpse for anything of value to use. He agreed to work with Cerberus on a project to repair his [[TeleportersAndTransporters Transportalponder]], [[spoiler: abandoned Liara and Feron at the mercy of Tazzik when things turned for the worse in their pursuit of Shepard (though he was willing to rescue them at any cost)]], and took a Blue Suns centurion hostage to extract information on Liara's and Feron's coordinates from her comrades. On the other hand, he assisted the [[TheFederation NCR]] during his travels in the Mojave. He was also squeamish working with Cerberus but didn't see much of a choice but to go along.
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