History Main / Metagame

23rd Jul '16 1:01:33 PM nombretomado
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* ''BigBrother'' US:

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* ''BigBrother'' ''Series/BigBrother'' US:
18th Jul '16 7:15:32 PM SgtFrog1
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** To give an example, one common Terran strategy vs Protoss was to put down two factories and produce lots of units to make an attack. Then the Terran metagame evolved to incorporate acting like you're putting down two factories and making a little attack to put the opponent on the defensive but you're actually only making one factory and saving for an expansion to gain an economic advantage - the fake double. This became so popular that it is normal and Protoss players anticipate it, so now Terrans can now also try to give the appearance that they are doing the fake double but meanwhile they ''actually really are putting down two factories'' to make a serious attack. Which is known as the [[GambitPileup fake fake double]]. Mindbending.

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** To give an example, one common Terran strategy vs Protoss was to put down two factories and produce lots of units to make an attack. Then the Terran metagame evolved to incorporate acting like you're putting down two factories and making a little attack to put the opponent on the defensive but you're actually only making one factory and saving for an expansion to gain an economic advantage - the fake double. This became so popular that it is normal and Protoss players anticipate it, so now Terrans can now also try to give the appearance that they are doing the fake double but meanwhile they ''actually ''[[IKnowYouKnowIKnow actually really are putting down two factories'' factories]]'' to make a serious attack. Which is known as the [[GambitPileup fake fake double]]. Mindbending.
8th May '16 11:42:31 AM nombretomado
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* In one episode of ''HaveIGotNewsForYou'', Reginald D. Hunter was not only metagaming, but meta-metagaming, saying he should get ''points'' for fostering disharmony in the opposing team.

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* In one episode of ''HaveIGotNewsForYou'', ''Series/HaveIGotNewsForYou'', Reginald D. Hunter was not only metagaming, but meta-metagaming, saying he should get ''points'' for fostering disharmony in the opposing team.
4th May '16 9:56:25 AM Tinandel_1
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*A short lived but amusing example could be found in Videogame/FalloutNewVegas. The story of the game's first DLC had a poignant moral about the dangers of obsession and recognizing the point at which [[PyrrhicVictory trying to 'win' had become needlessly self-destructive,]] and integrated this moral into the climax of the campaign with a reward that is equal parts enticing, and impossible to get without killing yourself. Gamers [[LordBritishPostulate being who they are,]] the player base understood the moral of the story but took it more as a challenge than anything else, and began finding exploits to escape with the prize anyway. A brief arms race then ensued between the players and developers, with players finding a succession of ways to exploit LoopholeAbuse and the devs subsequently patching those methods out.
18th Apr '16 5:19:57 AM LentilSandEater
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*** Not the end of the story. If they're going for a fake double, they often show that they are mining their Vespene Gas at maximum effeciency in exchange for mineral mining. This is a sign that they are going for a double. In fact, many players mine gas at maximum effeciency until their opponent's scout is gone, then stop, to make the opponent think they are going double. Most Protoss players have figured this out though, and now usually know it's an early expansion. In fact, the Terrans adapted to the Protoss, and actually DO go for the double. Yes, the Protoss adapted again, and play safer, but then the Terrans just go for the expansion.
** This becomes much more prevalent in Starcraft II where Scouts are crucial in knowing what you are dealing with. For Zerg it is fairly straightforward, early expansion or just go for the safer spawning pool? Do you produce a slew of zerglings to prep yourself for tier 2 or go for roaches to buff up your defenses? Did your oppoenent research burrow? Or did he go for the ventral sacs? the questions are never answered unless you know what your opponent is doing. Because of how fast the games get (due to the bases getting mined out earlier) it makes it all the more important to scout because everything moves quickly.
*** Ironically it also makes the Terran much more difficult to predict because of the ease to build and swap attachments. Since buildings can swap, it means that when you thought he was going for Marauders when he built that Barracks for the tech lab, he can just fake you out and swap it for a factory to build siege tanks and thors.

to:

*** Not the end of the story. If they're going for a fake double, they often show that they are mining their Vespene Gas at maximum effeciency in exchange for mineral mining. This is a sign that they are going for a double. In fact, many players mine gas at maximum effeciency until their opponent's scout is gone, then stop, to make the opponent think they are going double. Most Protoss players have figured this out though, and now usually know it's an early expansion. In fact, the Terrans adapted to the Protoss, and actually DO go for the double. Yes, the Protoss adapted again, and play safer, but then the Terrans just go for the expansion.
** This becomes much more prevalent in Starcraft II where Scouts are crucial in knowing what you are dealing with. For Zerg it is fairly straightforward, early expansion or just go for the safer spawning pool? Do you produce a slew of zerglings to prep yourself for tier 2 or go for roaches to buff up your defenses? Did your oppoenent research burrow? Or did he go for the ventral sacs? the questions are never answered unless you know what your opponent is doing. Because of how fast the games get (due to the bases getting mined out earlier) it makes it all the more important to scout because everything moves quickly.
***
quickly. Ironically it also makes the Terran much more difficult to predict because of the ease to build and swap attachments. Since buildings can swap, it means that when you thought he was going for Marauders when he built that Barracks for the tech lab, he can just fake you out and swap it for a factory to build siege tanks and thors.



* Savvy military commanders sometimes metagame during wargames and similar exercises. They usually get a lot of flak from their superiors afterwards due to the prevailing belief that real engagements wouldn't have fixed enough rules to be exploited, and that it may invalidate data they are trying to gather. However, public opinion will not be kind to simulations that outlaw meta-gamey tactics for what seem spurious reason: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 Millenium Challenge 2002]] is the best known of these, wherein opposing general Paul Van Riper of the "Red Team" used motorcycle messengers to deliver orders to troops and World War II era light signals to launch planes without radio communication, knowing that the United States' "Blue Team" would be using sophisticated electronic surveillance, then launching a massive attack as soon as Blue demanded a surrender, crippling Blue's forces. At this point, the games were stopped, and were restarted along more scripted lines. Realizing that his team was being instructed not to follow his orders, Van Riper resigned from the game, and publicly characterized the game as a set-up to validate strategies that had not actually faced testing.
** To be fair he also cheated heavily and his tactics wouldn't have worked in real life either. When he attacked the Blue Team's fleet he did so by claiming that a fleet of fishing trawlers fired anti-ship missiles even though they couldn't possibly hold them. In addition he used suicide vessels and tried to ignore the countermeasures that would be used against them in reality, primarily naval helicopters. Also, his motorcycles somehow could travel at the speed of light.
*** The wargame was heavily criticized within the military for those same reasons. The fact that Van Ripper was able to exploit the game's rules so effectively and do the patently impossible showed how poorly designed it was. While it is impossible to think of every possible variable, designers of a wargame need to keep in mind that the Red Team is ''supposed'' to cheat, and that they need to close off avenues which would be patently impossible.
* Arguably, the Office of Naval Research could be said to be taking advantage of this with their online game platform MMOWGLI (Massive Multiplayer Online WarGame Leveraging the Internet) to combat Somali pirates. It puts teams of players in the roles of the Navy and pirates in which they will have the expected resources of each side and have to pursue their respective goals against each other. A control team ensures no one does anything phenomenally stupid or unrealistic.

to:

* Savvy military commanders sometimes metagame during wargames and similar exercises. They usually get a lot of flak from their superiors afterwards due to the prevailing belief that real engagements wouldn't have fixed enough rules to be exploited, and that it may invalidate data they are trying to gather. However, public opinion will not be kind to simulations that outlaw meta-gamey tactics for what seem spurious reason: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 Millenium Challenge 2002]] is the best known of these, wherein opposing general Paul Van Riper of the "Red Team" used motorcycle messengers to deliver orders to troops and World War II era light signals to launch planes without radio communication, knowing that the United States' "Blue Team" would be using sophisticated electronic surveillance, then launching a massive attack as soon as Blue demanded a surrender, crippling Blue's forces. At this point, the games were stopped, and were restarted along more scripted lines. Realizing that his team was being instructed not to follow his orders, Van Riper resigned from the game, and publicly characterized the game as a set-up to validate strategies that had not actually faced testing.
** To be fair he
testing.\\
\\
He
also cheated heavily and his tactics wouldn't have worked in real life either. When he attacked the Blue Team's fleet he did so by claiming that a fleet of fishing trawlers fired anti-ship missiles even though they couldn't possibly hold them. In addition he used suicide vessels and tried to ignore the countermeasures that would be used against them in reality, primarily naval helicopters. Also, his motorcycles somehow could travel at the speed of light.
***
light.\\
\\
The wargame was heavily criticized within the military for those same reasons. The fact that Van Ripper was able to exploit the game's rules so effectively and do the patently impossible showed how poorly designed it was. While it is impossible to think of every possible variable, designers of a wargame need to keep in mind that the Red Team is ''supposed'' to cheat, and that they need to close off avenues which would be patently impossible.
* Arguably, the The Office of Naval Research could be said to be taking takes advantage of this with their online game platform MMOWGLI (Massive Multiplayer Online WarGame Leveraging the Internet) to combat Somali pirates. It puts teams of players in the roles of the Navy and pirates in which they will have the expected resources of each side and have to pursue their respective goals against each other. A control team ensures no one does anything phenomenally stupid or unrealistic.
9th Apr '16 8:23:38 PM jgkitarel
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*** The wargame was heavily criticized within the military for those same reasons. The fact that Van Ripper was able to exploit the game's rules so effectively and do the patently impossible showed how poorly designed it was. While it is impossible to think of every possible variable, designers of a wargame need to keep in mind that the Red Team is ''supposed'' to cheat, and that they need to close off avenues which would be patently impossible.
20th Feb '16 10:04:05 AM elemt
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*** Not the end of the story. If they're going for a fake double, they often show that they are mining their Vespene Gas at maximum effeciency in exchange for mineral mining. This is a sign that they are going for a double. In fact, many players mine gas at maximum effeciency until their opponent's scout is gone, then stop, to make the opponent think they are going double. Most Protoss players have figured this out though, and now usually know it's an early expansion. In fact, the Terrans adapted to the Protoss, and actually DO go for the double. Yes, the Protoss adapted again, and play safer, but then the Terrans just go for the expansion. Continuous Metagame development.

to:

*** Not the end of the story. If they're going for a fake double, they often show that they are mining their Vespene Gas at maximum effeciency in exchange for mineral mining. This is a sign that they are going for a double. In fact, many players mine gas at maximum effeciency until their opponent's scout is gone, then stop, to make the opponent think they are going double. Most Protoss players have figured this out though, and now usually know it's an early expansion. In fact, the Terrans adapted to the Protoss, and actually DO go for the double. Yes, the Protoss adapted again, and play safer, but then the Terrans just go for the expansion. Continuous Metagame development.
7th Feb '16 8:57:19 PM FF32
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** It should also be noted that TF2 has a completely different competitive scene than the developers intended. While normal play involves 24 players with few if any class limits, two completely different competitive scenes have evolved, one involving 12 players with some class limits, and another involving 18 players with strict class limits. Additionally, "6v6" has a considerable amount of items which are banned from competitive play. "9v9" (Known as Franchise/{{Highlander}} because each team has [[CatchPhrase only one]] of each class), while having significantly fewer items banned from competitive play, does also institute item bans.
** To elaborate, the 6v6 mode is typically on of the more "even" Capture Points maps (Grainary is the most common). Even though there are usually no restriction on what classes can be taken, 9/10 times it will be the optimal lineup (2 Scouts, 1 Demoman, 1 Medic, 1 "Roamer" that's usually a Soldier and 1 "Pocket" who stick with the Medic and is also usually a Soldier). Also, even though most "OP" weapons are banned, you will rarely if ever see anything besides the default loadouts, [[BoringButPractical since these have no drawbacks compared to the sidegrades]]. While Vanilla TF2 may be anywhere on the silliness scale, competitive TF2 is usually considered SeriousBusiness.

to:

** It should also be noted that TF2 [=TF2=] has a completely different competitive scene than the developers intended. While normal play involves 24 players with few if any class limits, two completely different competitive scenes have evolved, one involving 12 players with some class limits, and another involving 18 players with strict class limits. Additionally, "6v6" has a considerable amount of items which are banned from competitive play. "9v9" (Known as Franchise/{{Highlander}} because each team has [[CatchPhrase only one]] of each class), while having significantly fewer items banned from competitive play, does also institute item bans.
** To elaborate, the 6v6 mode is typically on of the more "even" Capture Points maps (Grainary is the most common). Even though there are usually no restriction on what classes can be taken, 9/10 times it will be the optimal lineup (2 Scouts, 1 Demoman, 1 Medic, 1 "Roamer" that's usually a Soldier and 1 "Pocket" who stick with the Medic and is also usually a Soldier). Also, even though most "OP" weapons are banned, you will rarely if ever see anything besides the default loadouts, [[BoringButPractical since these have no drawbacks compared to the sidegrades]]. While Vanilla TF2 [=TF2=] may be anywhere on the silliness scale, competitive TF2 [=TF2=] is usually considered SeriousBusiness.
22nd Jan '16 2:53:13 PM GrammarNavi
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* ''SuperSmashBros'' has developed a fairly extensive metagame, with standard techniques known for the most-played characters. Former champion Ken is generally considered to have invented the majority of the Marth metagame. As a result, every knowledgeable Marth player these days is in some way inspired by Ken.

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* ''SuperSmashBros'' ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBros'' has developed a fairly extensive metagame, with standard techniques known for the most-played characters. Former champion Ken is generally considered to have invented the majority of the Marth metagame. As a result, every knowledgeable Marth player these days is in some way inspired by Ken.
10th Jan '16 10:00:23 PM phoenix
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* [[TheBeautifulGame Association Football]]'s metagame has evolved massively, so much that even a cursory examination of the changes can result in long essays and even longer discussions.

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* [[TheBeautifulGame Association Football]]'s UsefulNotes/AssociationFootball's metagame has evolved massively, so much that even a cursory examination of the changes can result in long essays and even longer discussions.
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