History Main / AlwaysChaotiCEvil

20th Sep '17 6:30:32 AM BeerBaron
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** The Dark Brotherhood, at least as they are seen by outsiders. They are indeed an illegal [[MurderInc organization of assassins]], most of their members take a [[PsychoForHire sadistic glee]] in killing, and they practice a ReligionOfEvil. However, they Subvert it within the organization, with strict rules over who and how they kill, while exemplifying EvilIsOneBigHappyFamily toward one another.
19th Sep '17 8:26:49 PM merotoker
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How, exactly, these folk have [[PlanetOfHats unanimously embraced one ethos]] (especially [[EvilWillFail one so detrimental to the survival of the group]]), when [[SillyReasonForWar humans have been known to kill each other over]] [[Music/TupacShakur the kind of hip-hop]] [[Music/TheNotoriousBIG they prefer]], is often unknown and [[MST3KMantra inconsequential]]. When the ethos is [[JustifiedTrope justified]], often the race is explicitly artificial in origin, rather than natural. Their nature is determined by the evil individual who created them as slaves/warriors/etc -- thus dodging the problem that ChildrenAreInnocent. This is often reinforced by having their society believe in AsskickingEqualsAuthority... and in this case, anyone weak (good) will be killed ''very'' quickly.

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How, exactly, these folk have [[PlanetOfHats unanimously embraced one ethos]] (especially [[EvilWillFail one so detrimental to the survival of the group]]), when [[SillyReasonForWar humans have been known to kill each other over]] [[Music/TupacShakur the kind of hip-hop]] [[Music/TheNotoriousBIG they prefer]], is often unknown and [[MST3KMantra inconsequential]]. When the ethos is [[JustifiedTrope justified]], {{justified|Trope}}, often the race is explicitly artificial in origin, rather than natural. Their nature is determined by the evil individual who created them as slaves/warriors/etc -- thus dodging the problem that ChildrenAreInnocent. This is often reinforced by having their society believe in AsskickingEqualsAuthority... and in this case, anyone weak (good) will be killed ''very'' quickly.



** The Brood ([[{{Expy}} Expies]] of the aliens from ''Franchise/{{Alien}}'') are depicted as inherently, irredeemably corrupt because of the [[BodyHorror evolutionary peculiarities of their reproductive methods]].
*** In ''ComicBook/WorldWarHulk'', Broodling manages to make a decent play at being good, but when she tried to reproduce, she ended up having to kill her own spawn to save some children from them.

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** The Brood ([[{{Expy}} Expies]] of the aliens from ''Franchise/{{Alien}}'') are depicted as inherently, irredeemably corrupt because of the [[BodyHorror evolutionary peculiarities of their reproductive methods]].
***
methods]]. In ''ComicBook/WorldWarHulk'', Broodling manages to make a decent play at being good, but when she tried to reproduce, she ended up having to kill her own spawn to save some children from them.



* Creator/JossWhedon's "Breakworld" arc in ''[[ComicBook/XMen Astonishing X-Men]]'' {{deconstructed|Trope}} this trope with its portrayal of the eponymous PlanetOfHats. The Breakworlders, whose society is built around [[ForeverWar endless war]], are set up as the antagonists of the arc for fairly obvious reasons. But then it's revealed that [[spoiler: the true BigBad is the ultra-pacifist leader of a [[LaResistance resistance group]], who wants to end the wars by [[EarthShatteringKaboom destroying the planet]] and [[OmnicidalManiac wiping out its entire population]]]]. The conclusion points out that, in a society where violence and tyranny are the norm, the truly "evil" people would be the ones devoted to peace. Accordingly, their actions would probably be far less moral and logical than the average people who simply believe what they were raised to believe.

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* Creator/JossWhedon's "Breakworld" arc in ''[[ComicBook/XMen Astonishing X-Men]]'' ''ComicBook/AstonishingXMen'' {{deconstructed|Trope}} this trope with its portrayal of the eponymous PlanetOfHats. The Breakworlders, whose society is built around [[ForeverWar endless war]], are set up as the antagonists of the arc for fairly obvious reasons. But then it's revealed that [[spoiler: the true BigBad is the ultra-pacifist leader of a [[LaResistance resistance group]], who wants to end the wars by [[EarthShatteringKaboom destroying the planet]] and [[OmnicidalManiac wiping out its entire population]]]]. The conclusion points out that, in a society where violence and tyranny are the norm, the truly "evil" people would be the ones devoted to peace. Accordingly, their actions would probably be far less moral and logical than the average people who simply believe what they were raised to believe.



** The baddies of ''Weird Comics'' #2 are a race of mermen who sadistacally torture anybody who enters their domain.

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** The baddies of ''Weird Comics'' #2 are a race of mermen who sadistacally sadistically torture anybody who enters their domain.



* The Giants from ''Film/JackTheGiantSlayer''.

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* %%* The Giants from ''Film/JackTheGiantSlayer''.



* Already a SubvertedTrope in the eleventh century epic ''TheShahnameh'', written by persian poet Ferdowsi and drawing from much older myths. Zal, the son of the Shah's Pehliva (king's champion) goes to Kabul, and is well-received by the royal family, despite the fact that they descend from an evil three-headed dragon who ate brains, learnt magic from the Zoroastrian devil equivalent and tried to TakeOverTheWorld. Zal was warned not to sleep in their home or eat their food, and complies, candidly saying why (he was raised by a bird and has NoSocialSkills). Deeply humiliated, king Mehrab... does nothing, and keeps treating him well, even innocently recounting the whole thing and praising him to his daughter Rudabeh behind closed doors. The proud Rudabeh he starts acting like TheVamp, seduces Zal, and they proclaim their desire to marry against the Shah and his father's advice... and nothing bad happens untill the shah and Zal's father march against Mehrab's kingdom. Then, Mehrab finally has enough... and asks his daughter if she would agree to be executed by the Shah, to save their people. At this point, Zal goes to his father and performs a guilt slingling over his abandonment of him as a child, and the girl's mother goes the Shah, convinces him to take a good look at her daughter, and proves him that she isn't a man-eating serpent. Everything ends well.

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* Already a SubvertedTrope in the eleventh century epic ''TheShahnameh'', ''Literature/TheShahnameh'', written by persian Persian poet Ferdowsi and drawing from much older myths. Zal, the son of the Shah's Pehliva (king's champion) goes to Kabul, and is well-received by the royal family, despite the fact that they descend from an evil three-headed dragon who ate brains, learnt magic from the Zoroastrian devil equivalent and tried to TakeOverTheWorld. Zal was warned not to sleep in their home or eat their food, and complies, candidly saying why (he was raised by a bird and has NoSocialSkills). Deeply humiliated, king Mehrab... does nothing, and keeps treating him well, even innocently recounting the whole thing and praising him to his daughter Rudabeh behind closed doors. The proud Rudabeh he starts acting like TheVamp, seduces Zal, and they proclaim their desire to marry against the Shah and his father's advice... and nothing bad happens untill the shah and Zal's father march against Mehrab's kingdom. Then, Mehrab finally has enough... and asks his daughter if she would agree to be executed by the Shah, to save their people. At this point, Zal goes to his father and performs a guilt slingling over his abandonment of him as a child, and the girl's mother goes the Shah, convinces him to take a good look at her daughter, and proves him that she isn't a man-eating serpent. Everything ends well.



* [[PigMan Muzzles]] in ''Bullets Of Justice'' are a sadistic species without exception, completely obsessed with farming humans for food or killing them in painfull ways. A completely justified case, since they were created by a Gobernment Program during WorldWarIII as SuperSoldiers. To made things worse, when they began to attack civilians,the military [[TooDumbToLive decided to kill the witness instead of doing anything to stop them, making possible the setting 25 years later instead of dealing now with the problem]].

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* [[PigMan Muzzles]] in ''Bullets Of Justice'' are a sadistic species without exception, completely obsessed with farming humans for food or killing them in painfull painful ways. A completely justified case, since they were created by a Gobernment Program during WorldWarIII as SuperSoldiers. {{Super Soldier}}s. To made things worse, when they began to attack civilians,the civilians, the military [[TooDumbToLive decided to kill the witness instead of doing anything to stop them, making possible the setting 25 years later instead of dealing now with the problem]].



** The Brotherhood of Makuta themselves are a zig-zagged example, and mostly an InformedAttribute: they are the antagonists, several of them are [[BloodKnight very]] [[AxCrazy nasty]], and their leader is the BigBad; but most Makuta who we see are more in vein of {{Mad Scientist}}s, indifferent to anything but their personal creations, which they dote on; or JustFollowingOrders. Several AlternateUniverse versions of [[BigBad Teridax]] and other Makuta are good, and even among the prime-Brotherhood there are a few decent members like Krika and Miserix. {{Justified}} in that most of the Makuta seen in-story were the ones who rallied behind [[BigBad Teridax]], while anyone who didn't (with exception to Miserix and Krika, who were imprisoned and went along resignedly) were executed. [[spoiler:The unborn Makuta spirits within their original Antidermis pool, however, are all on the side of good]].

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** The Brotherhood of Makuta themselves are a zig-zagged example, and mostly an InformedAttribute: they are the antagonists, several of them are [[BloodKnight very]] [[AxCrazy nasty]], and their leader is the BigBad; but most Makuta who we see are more in vein of {{Mad Scientist}}s, indifferent to anything but their personal creations, which they dote on; or JustFollowingOrders. Several AlternateUniverse versions of [[BigBad Teridax]] and other Makuta are good, and even among the prime-Brotherhood there are a few decent members like Krika and Miserix. {{Justified}} {{Justified|Trope}} in that most of the Makuta seen in-story were the ones who rallied behind [[BigBad Teridax]], while anyone who didn't (with exception to Miserix and Krika, who were imprisoned and went along resignedly) were executed. [[spoiler:The unborn Makuta spirits within their original Antidermis pool, however, are all on the side of good]].



** [[OurDemonsAreDifferent Demons]] in ''Franchise/DragonAge'' also fulfill this trope, being dream spirits that prey upon mortals. These creatures are shaped by the darkest impulses of mortals and are generally murderous and violent. They're also one of the few sources of knowledge in Thedas about [[BloodMagic blood]] [[BlackMagic magic]].

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** [[OurDemonsAreDifferent Demons]] in ''Franchise/DragonAge'' also fulfill this trope, being dream spirits that prey upon mortals. These creatures are shaped by the darkest impulses of mortals and are generally murderous and violent. They're also one of the few sources of knowledge in Thedas about [[BloodMagic blood]] {{blood|Magic}} [[BlackMagic magic]].



* ''VideoGame/BetrayalAtKrondor'' features the Moredhel, which humanity assumes to be this trope, although by the end of the game it is subverted rather hard, the game itself named after a Moredhel who betrays his race's "messiah" to save the world. Played straight with the pantathians, who do not appear in the game except as enemies. [[JustifiedTrope Justified]] as they are genetically hardwired to single-mindedly work towards the purpose of restoring their master and creator, the Valheru Alma-Lodaka, to power.

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* ''VideoGame/BetrayalAtKrondor'' features the Moredhel, which humanity assumes to be this trope, although by the end of the game it is subverted rather hard, the game itself named after a Moredhel who betrays his race's "messiah" to save the world. Played straight with the pantathians, who do not appear in the game except as enemies. [[JustifiedTrope Justified]] {{Justified|Trope}} as they are genetically hardwired to single-mindedly work towards the purpose of restoring their master and creator, the Valheru Alma-Lodaka, to power.



** Played straight so far with demons and undead, however -- but even then they're allowed to be much more rounded characters than you would normally expect from this trope. In the case of the BigBad Xykon, the prequel book ''StartOfDarkness'' portrays him as utterly, irredeemably evil even in life - and ''still'' manages to make his lichification look tragic: [[spoiler:the process removed his sense of taste, meaning [[ItMakesSenseInContext he can never taste a bad cup of coffee again]]. He proceeds to kill his minions on a whim and send them into certain death, and abuse the ones he doesn't kill, solely because it's the only way for him to feel any joy, or really much of ''anything'', anymore]]. Most of the other undead we see are his zombified minions, who pretty much just shamble about saying "braaains", unless you count ghosts who act pretty much the same as they were in life. Demons seem to be borderline {{Anthropomorphic Personification}}s of their alignment, but even then the most prominent ones we see in the comic, the IFCC, are out to bring an end to the rivalry between the various demonic races and bring them together to fight for the greater evil. (And Sabine, a [[HornyDevils succubus]], may be evil, but she's also portrayed as being in a stable relationship with an also-evil human man.)

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** Played straight so far with demons and undead, however -- but even then they're allowed to be much more rounded characters than you would normally expect from this trope. In the case of the BigBad Xykon, the prequel book ''StartOfDarkness'' ''Recap/StartOfDarkness'' portrays him as utterly, irredeemably evil even in life - and ''still'' manages to make his lichification look tragic: [[spoiler:the process removed his sense of taste, meaning [[ItMakesSenseInContext he can never taste a bad cup of coffee again]]. He proceeds to kill his minions on a whim and send them into certain death, and abuse the ones he doesn't kill, solely because it's the only way for him to feel any joy, or really much of ''anything'', anymore]]. Most of the other undead we see are his zombified minions, who pretty much just shamble about saying "braaains", unless you count ghosts who act pretty much the same as they were in life. Demons seem to be borderline {{Anthropomorphic Personification}}s of their alignment, but even then the most prominent ones we see in the comic, the IFCC, are out to bring an end to the rivalry between the various demonic races and bring them together to fight for the greater evil. (And Sabine, a [[HornyDevils succubus]], may be evil, but she's also portrayed as being in a stable relationship with an also-evil human man.)



* While most races and factions in ''Roleplay/RollToDodgeSavral'' have varying shades of gray, unicorns are depicted as universally evil. Whenever they show up, they're either trolling the players, working for other antagonists, brainwashing scores of innocent civilians or slaughtering them outright. Over the course of the game, they've laid waste to several cities and transformed one of the world's subregions into a barren wasteland. Given that they're creations of the [[BigBad witch]] [[GodIsEvil goddess]] [[KillerGameMaster Cathy]], the unicorns are a justified example.

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* While most races and factions in ''Roleplay/RollToDodgeSavral'' have varying shades of gray, unicorns are depicted as universally evil. Whenever they show up, they're either trolling the players, working for other antagonists, brainwashing scores of innocent civilians or slaughtering them outright. Over the course of the game, they've laid waste to several cities and transformed one of the world's subregions into a barren wasteland. Given that they're creations of the [[BigBad witch]] [[GodIsEvil goddess]] {{god|IsEvil}}dess [[KillerGameMaster Cathy]], the unicorns are a justified example.



* According to the Flame King in ''WesternAnimation/AdventureTime'', all denizens of the fire kingdom are evil. Including [[CardCarryingVillain himself]], and his daughter [[ThirdOptionLoveInterest Flame Princess]]. That said, after a brief debate with [[TheHero Finn]], the Flame King concedes that by spending time with a "good guy", it would be in theory possible to [[HeelFaceTurn turn Flame Princess good]], though he notes that she'd [[TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons take penalties to experience for acting out of alignment.]]
** Later revelations in the show seem to suggest that this is a simplification. Flame people don't seem totally evil, though Flame Princess notes that they tend to be "deceitful [[ItMakesSenseInContext and Shakespeare]]."

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* According to the Flame King in ''WesternAnimation/AdventureTime'', all denizens of the fire kingdom are evil. Including [[CardCarryingVillain himself]], and his daughter [[ThirdOptionLoveInterest Flame Princess]]. That said, after a brief debate with [[TheHero Finn]], the Flame King concedes that by spending time with a "good guy", it would be in theory possible to [[HeelFaceTurn turn Flame Princess good]], though he notes that she'd [[TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons take penalties to experience for acting out of alignment.]]
**
]] Later revelations in the show seem to suggest that this is a simplification. Flame people don't seem totally evil, though Flame Princess notes that they tend to be "deceitful [[ItMakesSenseInContext and Shakespeare]]."
19th Sep '17 5:05:57 PM seekquaze1
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** From ComicBook/TheMightyThor we have the Dark Elves and Fire Demons. The Dark Elf culture is built on treachery and violence with even the nicer members of the species shown as war-mongerers. The Fire Demons have a desire to kill everything that isn't them. Both are responsible for numerous wars of aggression against the other realms, are willing to commit any atrocity imaginable and no regret about any of it.
16th Sep '17 5:28:52 PM VanHohenheimOfXerxes
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[[caption-width-right:350:They're all just [[SlasherSmile so happy]] to see you.]]

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[[caption-width-right:350:They're all just [[SlasherSmile so happy]] to see you.]][[note]]Not in ''[[OrAreYouJustHappyToSeeMe that]]'' way, pull your heads out of the gutter.[[/note]]]]
4th Sep '17 9:10:21 PM PaulA
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** "Literature/TheShadowOverInnsmouth": Have you ever seen a Deep One that wasn't evil or Cthulhu-allied, even in Mythos works not written by Creator/HPLovecraft? (OK, there was one in ''Literature/TheJenniferMorgue'' by Creator/CharlesStross and another in ''The Trail of Cthulhu'' by Creator/AugustDerleth.)

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** "Literature/TheShadowOverInnsmouth": Have you ever seen a Deep One that wasn't evil or Cthulhu-allied, even in Mythos works not written by Creator/HPLovecraft? (OK, there was one in ''Literature/TheJenniferMorgue'' by Creator/CharlesStross and another in ''The Trail of Cthulhu'' ''Literature/TheTrailOfCthulhu'' by Creator/AugustDerleth.)
4th Sep '17 8:20:55 PM PaulA
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** ''Literature/TheShadowOverInnsmouth'': Have you ever seen a Deep One that wasn't evil or Cthulhu-allied, even in Mythos works not written by Creator/HPLovecraft? (OK, there was one in ''Literature/TheLaundrySeries'' by Creator/CharlesStross and another in ''The Trail of Cthulhu'' by Creator/AugustDerleth.)

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** ''Literature/TheShadowOverInnsmouth'': "Literature/TheShadowOverInnsmouth": Have you ever seen a Deep One that wasn't evil or Cthulhu-allied, even in Mythos works not written by Creator/HPLovecraft? (OK, there was one in ''Literature/TheLaundrySeries'' ''Literature/TheJenniferMorgue'' by Creator/CharlesStross and another in ''The Trail of Cthulhu'' by Creator/AugustDerleth.)



** It doesn't help that Lovecraft treats actual human "races" in a very similar manner (read the descriptions of the cultists in ''The Call of Cthulhu'' for a fine example), besides creating several inbred communities in rural America and the infamous fishmen of Innsmouth, who stand out as an ugly, racist metaphor concerning immigrants. The entire basis of Lovecraft's horror is set firmly upon the idea that anything alien or different is terrifyingly evil and he was apparently rather open about his xenophobia, even going so far as to tell his Jewish wife that he thought mixed marriages were a bad idea. To be fair, Lovecraft also had no trouble in writing about degenerate, barbaric white people, and did it with far greater frequency than writing against black people.

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** It doesn't help that Lovecraft treats actual human "races" in a very similar manner (read the descriptions of the cultists in ''The Call of Cthulhu'' "Literature/TheCallOfCthulhu" for a fine example), besides creating several inbred communities in rural America and the infamous fishmen of Innsmouth, who stand out as an ugly, racist metaphor concerning immigrants. The entire basis of Lovecraft's horror is set firmly upon the idea that anything alien or different is terrifyingly evil and he was apparently rather open about his xenophobia, even going so far as to tell his Jewish wife that he thought mixed marriages were a bad idea. To be fair, Lovecraft also had no trouble in writing about degenerate, barbaric white people, and did it with far greater frequency than writing against black people.



** Averted in the case of the Elder Things. The narrator even praises their determination:

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** Averted in the case of the Elder Things.Things in ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness''. The narrator even praises their determination:



** Also averted for the Great Race of the Yith in Shadow Out Of Time. What at first seems a rather straightforwardly, almost supernaturally evil plan, stealing the bodies of mankind as hosts for a race of time-traveling aliens, actually becomes rather sympathetic over the course of the story. The Yith aren't really aggressive so much as they're desperate to preserve the galactic heritage of accumulated knowledge that they tend, and are using body-switching as a last resort to escape from actual mindlessly evil beings they're losing a war against. They give their inadvertent captive freedom to move around and are even nice enough to explain things to him so that he doesn't freak out... essentially because they're being nice, as if they'd left him an incoherent broken-down wreck it would have concealed their activities completely. They're still planning to displace humanity, they just have a very reasonable attitude and aren't actively malicious about it, and kinda feel for us.

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** Also averted for the Great Race of the Yith in Shadow Out Of Time."Literature/TheShadowOutOfTime". What at first seems a rather straightforwardly, almost supernaturally evil plan, stealing the bodies of mankind as hosts for a race of time-traveling aliens, actually becomes rather sympathetic over the course of the story. The Yith aren't really aggressive so much as they're desperate to preserve the galactic heritage of accumulated knowledge that they tend, and are using body-switching as a last resort to escape from actual mindlessly evil beings they're losing a war against. They give their inadvertent captive freedom to move around and are even nice enough to explain things to him so that he doesn't freak out... essentially because they're being nice, as if they'd left him an incoherent broken-down wreck it would have concealed their activities completely. They're still planning to displace humanity, they just have a very reasonable attitude and aren't actively malicious about it, and kinda feel for us.
2nd Sep '17 5:09:52 PM DemonDuckofDoom
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* ''ComicBook/MotherHubbard'':
** Gnomes are all either lazy slavers or sadistic tricksters.
** Ogres are all brutal thugs who eat babies.
28th Aug '17 6:58:25 PM UmbrellasWereAwesome
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** In the case of Dragons and Werewolves, both were specifically created to be evil by Morgoth himself, and it's stated that the latter were inhabited by the spirits of dreadful beings (ranging from [[FallenAngel fallen Maiar]] to Orcs]]).

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** In the case of Dragons and Werewolves, both were specifically created to be evil by Morgoth himself, and it's stated that the latter were inhabited by the spirits of dreadful beings (ranging from [[FallenAngel fallen Maiar]] to Orcs]]).Orcs).
28th Aug '17 6:56:34 PM UmbrellasWereAwesome
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* Creator/JRRTolkien's Middle-earth stories have evil creatures mutated from natural ones by [[{{Satan}} Dark Lord Morgoth]]: Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, Werewolves, etc.
** As a devout Catholic who believed in spiritual salvation, the idea of a race of inherently or irredeemably evil creatures was one of Tolkien's major sticking points with his own work. He spent much of the latter part of his life as a writer trying to [[JustifiedTrope justify it]]. He never did come up with an explanation that satisfied him.\\

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* Creator/JRRTolkien's [[Franchise/TolkiensLegendarium Middle-earth stories stories]] have evil creatures mutated from natural ones by [[{{Satan}} Dark Lord Morgoth]]: Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, Werewolves, etc.
** As
Wargs, etc. However, as a devout Catholic who believed in spiritual salvation, the idea of a race of inherently or irredeemably evil creatures was one of Tolkien's major sticking points with his own work. He spent much of the latter part of his life as a writer trying to [[JustifiedTrope justify it]]. He never did come up with an explanation that satisfied him.\\him.
** Orcs: In ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'', the Elves theorize that Orcs were Elves tortured and corrupted by [[{{Satan}} Morgoth]], and in ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'' Treebeard voices a similar theory about Trolls being bred as a mockery of Ents. Both of these are beliefs of characters, which are never directly confirmed by the author. Another idea was that Orcs are generally just Human tribes and are "evil" precisely because of Sauron and Morgoth's magic. [[KeystoneArmy After the One Ring is destroyed, they become feral and scatter in all directions.]]\\



The makers of the [[Film/TheLordOfTheRings movie trilogy]] were concerned that the idea of a race being evil by definition [[UnfortunateImplications seemed racist]], claiming that [[ValuesDissonance in Tolkien's time, people didn't mind such stuff]]. Hence, the added scene where Uruk-Hai are created from the earth in Saruman's dungeons. This is not mentioned in [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings the book]], but is one of the author's earliest ideas for their origins, as an attempt at the "artificial origin" justification. Tolkien later believed that evil cannot create new life, so the Orcs and other monsters must be bred and corrupted from natural people and animals.
** Orcs: In ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'', the Elves theorize that Orcs were Elves tortured and corrupted by [[{{Satan}} Morgoth]], and in ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'' Treebeard voices a similar theory about Trolls being bred as a mockery of Ents. Both of these are beliefs of characters, which are never directly confirmed by the author. Another idea was that Orcs are generally just Human tribes and are "evil" precisely because of Sauron and Morgoth's magic. [[KeystoneArmy After the One Ring is destroyed, they scatter in all directions.]]\\
\\



In one letter, Tolkien points out that some Orcs display [[ProudWarriorRaceGuy courage and tribal loyalty]] if nothing else, and that they wouldn't have been able to function as well if they were ''completely'' evil. And he was generally quite good at giving individual Orcs distinct personalities.
*** In fact, Elrond explicitly states that, in the Battle of the Mount Doom, *all living beings except Elves stood divided*. So it is obvious that there are in fact good (at least for a certain definition of "good") Orcs and Trolls, just that we don't see them.
*** The exact quote is not from Elrond but from ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'' and is "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-Galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron". This implies also that among creatures like Eagles and Ents some of them fought for Sauron, which seems unlikely. Some readers point out that could be a case of UnreliableNarrator as the book was supposedly written by the Elves and they might be enhancing themselves. Nevertheless, if The Silmarillion is taken as literal, then yes, there were Trolls and Orcs on the good side once.
*** Possibly subverted in the animated ''WesternAnimation/TheReturnOfTheKing'', where some [[VillainSong orcs sing]] they don't want to go to war but their officers and Sauron [[PunchClockVillain tell them to]].
** Trolls: Aside from Treebeard's theory (above), Tolkien suggested that Trolls were artificially created from stones. Yet in ''Literature/TheHobbit'', William the Troll has mercy on Bilbo and insists that the other Trolls let him go. William "had already had as much supper as he could hold; also he had had lots of beer." The other Trolls also seem reasonable, but are concerned that there may be other 'burrahobbits' in the woods and don't want to be attacked in their sleep.
** Wolves: taking his cue from mythologies [[SavageWolves in which wolves are always evil]]. The only mention of normal, non-evil wolves is in ''The Fellowship of the Ring'' when Gandalf mentions that natural wolves would only attack people out of hunger.
** In the case of Dragons and Werewolves, the first ones were in fact {{Fallen Angel}}s and the others are their descendants, so you can bet they didn't grow up in loving, affectionate families. The {{Giant Spider}}s are also the descendants of a Fallen Angel or EldritchAbomination.
** Humans: The Easterlings, Haradrim, and other so-called "evil Men" were not as evil as they appeared. In fact, it is implied that they only serve the BigBad because of lies and promises made to them ([[ILied and never kept]]), or just fear of the Dark Lord. For example, in "The Two Towers" the Dunlendings are amazed when they are freed by the men of Rohan, having been told they burn prisoners alive. In the First Age, the [[Literature/TheBible biblical]] Original Sin took the form of the first Humans worshipping Morgoth out of ignorance when he went into the East. The evil Men come from cultures which never rebelled against Morgoth, whereas the good Men (including some Easterlings in ''The Silmarillion'') [[DefectorFromDecadence rebelled and fled to the western end of Middle-earth]].\\

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In one letter, Tolkien points out that some Orcs display [[ProudWarriorRaceGuy courage and tribal loyalty]] if nothing else, and that they wouldn't have been able to function as well if they were ''completely'' evil. And he was generally quite good at giving individual Orcs distinct personalities.
*** In fact, Elrond explicitly states that, in the Battle of the Mount Doom, *all living beings except Elves stood divided*. So it
personalities. (This is obvious that there are in fact good (at least for a certain definition of "good") Orcs and Trolls, just that we don't see them.
*** The exact quote is not from Elrond but from ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'' and is "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-Galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron". This implies also that among creatures like Eagles and Ents some of them fought for Sauron, which seems unlikely. Some readers point out that could be a case of UnreliableNarrator as the book was supposedly written by the Elves and they might be enhancing themselves. Nevertheless, if The Silmarillion is taken as literal, then yes, there were Trolls and Orcs
touched on the good side once.
*** Possibly subverted
in the animated version of ''WesternAnimation/TheReturnOfTheKing'', where some [[VillainSong orcs sing]] that they don't want to go to war but their officers and Sauron [[PunchClockVillain tell them to]].
to]].)
** Trolls: Aside from Treebeard's theory (above), above, Tolkien suggested that Trolls were artificially created from stones. Yet in ''Literature/TheHobbit'', William the Troll has mercy on Bilbo and insists that the other Trolls let him go. William "had already had as much supper as he could hold; also he had had lots of beer." The other Trolls also seem reasonable, but are concerned that there may be other 'burrahobbits' in the woods and don't want to be attacked in their sleep.
** Wolves: taking Taking his cue from mythologies [[SavageWolves in which wolves are always evil]].evil]], the Wargs are giant intelligent wolves with the malevolence to match. The only mention of normal, non-evil wolves is in ''The Fellowship of the Ring'' when Gandalf mentions that natural wolves would only attack people out of hunger.
** In the case of Dragons and Werewolves, the first ones both were in fact {{Fallen Angel}}s specifically created to be evil by Morgoth himself, and it's stated that the others are latter were inhabited by the spirits of dreadful beings (ranging from [[FallenAngel fallen Maiar]] to Orcs]]).
** For
their descendants, so you can bet they didn't grow up in loving, affectionate families. The part, the {{Giant Spider}}s are also the descendants of the evil spider demon Ungoliant (who's either a Fallen Angel fallen Maia or EldritchAbomination.
some other form of EldritchAbomination) and have all inherited their progenitor's vileness.
** Humans: The Easterlings, Haradrim, and other so-called "evil Men" were not are ''not'' treated as evil as they appeared. inherently evil. In fact, it is implied that they only serve the BigBad Morgoth and Sauron because of lies and promises made to them ([[ILied and never kept]]), or just their fear of the Dark Lord. Lords. For example, in "The ''The Two Towers" Towers'', the Dunlendings are amazed when when, after being captured by the Men of Rohan, they are freed by the men of Rohan, their captors, having been told they burn the Rohirrim burned prisoners alive. In the First Age, the [[Literature/TheBible biblical]] Original Sin took the form of the first Humans worshipping Morgoth out of ignorance when he went into the East. The evil Men come from cultures which never rebelled against Morgoth, whereas the good Men (including some Easterlings in ''The Silmarillion'') [[DefectorFromDecadence rebelled and fled to the western end of Middle-earth]]. Later writings from Tolkien also mention that the last two Wizards successfully jump-started rebellions against Sauron in the homelands of the Haradrim and Easterlings, which explains what the good-aligned ones were doing during the events of ''The Lord of the Rings''.\\



In addition, many of the "evil" Humans of Middle-earth had legitimately suffered abuse by the Númenóreans in the late Second Age, who ruled over them as tyrants, taxed them heavily, often enslaved them and destroyed their livelihoods (e.g., by clear-cutting their forest homes), and abducted people for HumanSacrifice. Between that and Sauron's various propaganda and lies, they believed the folk of Gondor and Rohan to be evil and cruel. In truth the folk of Gondor were actually the descendants of the Numenoreans who opposed all of this.\\

to:

In addition, many of the "evil" Humans of Middle-earth had legitimately suffered abuse by the Númenóreans in the late Second Age, who ruled over them as tyrants, taxed them heavily, often enslaved them and destroyed their livelihoods (e.g., by clear-cutting their forest homes), and abducted people them for HumanSacrifice. Between that and Sauron's various propaganda and lies, they believed the folk of Gondor Easterlings and Rohan Haradrim continue to be believe that the Númenóreans' Gondorian descendants and their allies are evil and cruel. In truth truth, the folk Men of Gondor were are actually the descendants of the Numenoreans Númenóreans who opposed all of this.this.
** Originally, Tolkien intended the Dwarves as this, but while writing ''The Hobbit'' decided to make the Dwarves one of the "good" races.
** Interestingly, ''Literature/TheSilmarillion'' notes that during the Siege of Barad-dûr, "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-Galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron". This implies that at least a few Orcs, Trolls, etc. fought for the good guys, or at least against Sauron. That said, the passage would also imply that at least a few Eagles and Ents fought for Sauron, which seems rather unlikely considering that those races have an absolute hatred of the forces of darkness, and some readers consider it to be a case of UnreliableNarrator as ''The Silmarillion'' was supposedly written by the Elves.
** For their part, the makers of the ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings'' movie trilogy were concerned that the idea of a race being evil by definition [[UnfortunateImplications seemed racist]], claiming that [[ValuesDissonance in Tolkien's time, people didn't mind such stuff]]. Hence, the added scene where Uruk-Hai are created from the earth in Saruman's dungeons. This is not mentioned in the original books, but was one of the author's earliest ideas for their origins, as an attempt at the "artificial origin" justification. Tolkien later believed that evil cannot create new life, so the Orcs and other monsters must be bred and corrupted from natural people and animals.
* The "Trolls" in ''Literature/TheApocalypseTroll'' by David Weber. Though only one is technically featured, the rest are described as just as psychopathic, manipulative, and {{omnicidal|Maniac}}. They're like robots, but with the apparent ability to choose not to kill everything in their path -- they just choose to do so, most of the time.
\\



Supplementary material has the last two Wizards starting rebellions against Sauron in their homelands. So the good Haradrim and Easterlings were busy dealing with problems in their own lands.
** Originally Tolkien intended the Dwarves as this but while writing ''The Hobbit'' decided to make the Dwarves better.
* The "Trolls" in ''Literature/TheApocalypseTroll'' by David Weber. Though only one is technically featured, the rest are described as just as psychopathic, manipulative, and {{omnicidal|Maniac}}. They're like robots, but with the apparent ability to choose not to kill everything in their path -- they just choose to do so, most of the time.\\
\\
23rd Aug '17 10:16:07 PM CaptainMar-Vell92
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** The Skrulls, the most recurring evil race and, in fact, the first one created by Lee and Kirby. The Kree are evil as well, but we usually see them though [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch a pariah]] [[DefectorFromDecadence that turned to the light side]] (usually using the name "Captain Marvel"), rather than as a full evil race.

to:

** The Skrulls, the most recurring evil race and, in fact, the first one created by Lee and Kirby. The Kree are evil as well, being an empire of smug space fascists, but we usually see them though [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch a pariah]] [[DefectorFromDecadence that turned to the light side]] (usually using the name "Captain Marvel"), rather than as a full evil race.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.AlwaysChaotiCEvil