History Literature / TheRobotsOfDawn

25th Jan '18 11:47:08 PM CassandraLeo
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** To be more specific, Baley's internal monologue at one point during their sexual encounter reads, "I couldn't help it...she made me", but this is in direct contrast to the surrounding text (which describes his participation, such as it is, with adjectives like "willing" and "content") and doesn't read like something he genuinely believes; it reads as an excuse he is trying out in his head to assuage his guilt for participating (passively) in an act of adultery. Moreover, before this thought flits through his head, he tells her, "I'm not ''that'' tired, Gladia," as though he's willing to be an active participant in their encounter; shortly after this, but before he thinks, "she made me", Gladia kisses him and "he relaxed...and was willing to be done to rather than to do"; not long after the "she made me" quote, the narration also describes him as "content to do nothing, to let her initiate and carry out every activity" and states, "She seemed tireless and he did not want her to stop." Moreover, he himself had awoken from an erotic dream about Gladia right before their encounter. He never actually ''explicitly'', verbally consents to sex with her, so some readers may consider his consent to be at best ambiguous; on the other hand, he's clearly conscious enough by the time she actually has his clothes off that, if he hadn't wanted to have sex with her, he could have told her to stop. (To be clear, the fact that he does not tell her to stop is not, ''by itself'', proof that he is willing to have sex with her; a person may freeze up due to panic and find themselves unable to tell another person to stop. Baley's other behaviour during, after, and even before the encounter - plus his internal monologue - casts doubt on the interpretation that this is occurring to him, however.) He also doesn't at any point read as traumatised over the experience. In short, he doesn't particularly read like a rape victim; he reads more as an entirely passive participant in a sexual encounter, at the direct request of his partner. (He seems somewhat bemused over this request, but also content to indulge it.) This may still read as problematic to some readers, but if it qualifies as an example of this trope, it's probably, at worst, heavily downplayed.

to:

** To be more specific, Baley's internal monologue at one point during their sexual encounter reads, "I couldn't help it...she made me", but this is in direct contrast to the surrounding text (which describes his participation, such as it is, with adjectives like "willing" and "content") and doesn't read like something he genuinely believes; it reads as an excuse he is trying out in his head to assuage his guilt for participating (passively) in an act of adultery. Moreover, before this thought flits through his head, he tells her, "I'm not ''that'' tired, Gladia," as though he's willing to be an active participant in their encounter; shortly after this, but before he thinks, "she made me", Gladia kisses him and "he relaxed...and was willing to be done to rather than to do"; not long after the "she made me" quote, the narration also describes him as "content to do nothing, to let her initiate and carry out every activity" and states, "She seemed tireless and he did not want her to stop." Moreover, he himself had awoken from an erotic dream about Gladia right before their encounter. He never actually ''explicitly'', verbally consents to sex with her, so some readers may consider his consent to be at best ambiguous; on the other hand, he's clearly conscious enough by the time she actually has his clothes off that, if he hadn't wanted to have sex with her, he could have told her to stop. (To be clear, the fact that he does not tell her to stop is not, ''by itself'', proof that he is willing to have sex with her; a person may freeze up due to panic and find themselves unable to tell another person to stop. Baley's other behaviour during, after, and even before the encounter - plus his internal monologue - casts doubt on the interpretation that this is occurring to him, however.) He also doesn't at any point read as traumatised over the experience. experience - and in fact, upon recalling the encounter upon the following morning, describes himself as having been "''quite'' well cared for." In short, he doesn't particularly read like a rape victim; he reads more as an entirely passive participant in a sexual encounter, at the direct request of his partner. (He seems somewhat bemused over this request, but also content to indulge it.) This may still read as problematic to some readers, but if it qualifies as an example of this trope, it's probably, at worst, heavily downplayed.
25th Jan '18 11:45:12 PM CassandraLeo
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** To be more specific, Baley's internal monologue at one point during their sexual encounter reads, "I couldn't help it...she made me", but this is in direct contrast to the surrounding text (which describes his participation, such as it is, with adjectives like "willing" and "content") and doesn't read like something he genuinely believes; it reads as an excuse he is trying out in his head to assuage his guilt for participating (passively) in an act of adultery. Moreover, before this thought flits through his head, he tells her, "I'm not ''that'' tired, Gladia," as though he's willing to be an active participant in their encounter; shortly after this, but before he thinks, "she made me", Gladia kisses him and "he relaxed...and was willing to be done to rather than to do"; not long after the "she made me" quote, the narration also describes him as "content to do nothing, to let her initiate and carry out every activity" and states, "She seemed tireless and he did not want her to stop." Moreover, he himself had awoken from an erotic dream about Gladia right before their encounter. He never actually ''explicitly'', verbally consents to sex with her, so some readers may consider his consent to be at best ambiguous; on the other hand, he's clearly conscious enough by the time she actually has his clothes off that, if he hadn't wanted to have sex with her, he could have told her to stop. He also doesn't at any point read as traumatised over the experience. In short, he doesn't particularly read like a rape victim; he reads more as an entirely passive participant in a sexual encounter, at the direct request of his partner. (He seems somewhat bemused over this request, but also content to indulge it.) This may still read as problematic to some readers, but if it qualifies as an example of this trope, it's probably, at worst, heavily downplayed.

to:

** To be more specific, Baley's internal monologue at one point during their sexual encounter reads, "I couldn't help it...she made me", but this is in direct contrast to the surrounding text (which describes his participation, such as it is, with adjectives like "willing" and "content") and doesn't read like something he genuinely believes; it reads as an excuse he is trying out in his head to assuage his guilt for participating (passively) in an act of adultery. Moreover, before this thought flits through his head, he tells her, "I'm not ''that'' tired, Gladia," as though he's willing to be an active participant in their encounter; shortly after this, but before he thinks, "she made me", Gladia kisses him and "he relaxed...and was willing to be done to rather than to do"; not long after the "she made me" quote, the narration also describes him as "content to do nothing, to let her initiate and carry out every activity" and states, "She seemed tireless and he did not want her to stop." Moreover, he himself had awoken from an erotic dream about Gladia right before their encounter. He never actually ''explicitly'', verbally consents to sex with her, so some readers may consider his consent to be at best ambiguous; on the other hand, he's clearly conscious enough by the time she actually has his clothes off that, if he hadn't wanted to have sex with her, he could have told her to stop. (To be clear, the fact that he does not tell her to stop is not, ''by itself'', proof that he is willing to have sex with her; a person may freeze up due to panic and find themselves unable to tell another person to stop. Baley's other behaviour during, after, and even before the encounter - plus his internal monologue - casts doubt on the interpretation that this is occurring to him, however.) He also doesn't at any point read as traumatised over the experience. In short, he doesn't particularly read like a rape victim; he reads more as an entirely passive participant in a sexual encounter, at the direct request of his partner. (He seems somewhat bemused over this request, but also content to indulge it.) This may still read as problematic to some readers, but if it qualifies as an example of this trope, it's probably, at worst, heavily downplayed.
25th Jan '18 11:41:06 PM CassandraLeo
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Added DiffLines:

** To be more specific, Baley's internal monologue at one point during their sexual encounter reads, "I couldn't help it...she made me", but this is in direct contrast to the surrounding text (which describes his participation, such as it is, with adjectives like "willing" and "content") and doesn't read like something he genuinely believes; it reads as an excuse he is trying out in his head to assuage his guilt for participating (passively) in an act of adultery. Moreover, before this thought flits through his head, he tells her, "I'm not ''that'' tired, Gladia," as though he's willing to be an active participant in their encounter; shortly after this, but before he thinks, "she made me", Gladia kisses him and "he relaxed...and was willing to be done to rather than to do"; not long after the "she made me" quote, the narration also describes him as "content to do nothing, to let her initiate and carry out every activity" and states, "She seemed tireless and he did not want her to stop." Moreover, he himself had awoken from an erotic dream about Gladia right before their encounter. He never actually ''explicitly'', verbally consents to sex with her, so some readers may consider his consent to be at best ambiguous; on the other hand, he's clearly conscious enough by the time she actually has his clothes off that, if he hadn't wanted to have sex with her, he could have told her to stop. He also doesn't at any point read as traumatised over the experience. In short, he doesn't particularly read like a rape victim; he reads more as an entirely passive participant in a sexual encounter, at the direct request of his partner. (He seems somewhat bemused over this request, but also content to indulge it.) This may still read as problematic to some readers, but if it qualifies as an example of this trope, it's probably, at worst, heavily downplayed.
27th Oct '17 6:09:18 AM Omeganian
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* WhatHaveYouDoneForMeLately: Baley is asked that at the beginning of the book. He got the Spacer outpost on Earth dismantled, he got the Spacer to review the terms of trade with Earth, but that was two years ago, and he, as a simple police officer, had little opportunity to do something global scale since.
7th Sep '17 7:25:11 AM Synch
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[[quoteright:316:http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/the_robotsofdawn.jpg]]
31st Jul '17 7:33:51 PM zzedar
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* ArmorPiercingQuestion: "How did you know that [[spoiler: Gladia thought of Jander as her husband]]?"

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* ArmorPiercingQuestion: "How did you know is it that [[spoiler: Gladia thought of [[spoiler:Dr. Amadiro knew that Jander as her was Gladia’s husband]]?"
5th Jul '17 7:44:31 PM Omeganian
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* AllTakeAndNoGive: Gladia has a lot of problems because of that. She was raised on Solaria, a SexIsEvil planet, and never had an orgasm, because there was no Giver and no Taker. Later, she emigrates to Aurora, a FreeLoveFuture planet, but the problem persists, because with the free attitude, there is once again neither Giver nor Taker. Then, with Jander, she did manage to have an orgasm, but she was only a Taker, because a robot cannot Take in turn. So she has sex with Baley when he is near-unconscious with exhaustion, to experience the role of a Giver. The sequel reveals she spent over a century married to Gremionis, so it can be assumed all this gave her the proper perspective.
7th Mar '17 11:01:14 PM Timjames98
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Added DiffLines:

* GoodGirlsAvoidAbortion: Played with. At one point Doctor Fastolfe states that he would have been aborted had his facial deformities been detectable at the time. Elijah Bailey replies that humanity would have lost one of its best scientists if that were the case.
25th Feb '17 9:33:16 AM DracMonster
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* ZerothLawRebellion: Ye Originale Example is actually an inversion. Giskard came up with the Zeroth law, and has determined that being too protected by robots is ''bad'' for mankind. So he's quietly arranging things so that humans have to do without robots for a while, even if it means individuals are going to face danger.

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* ZerothLawRebellion: Ye Originale Example is actually an inversion.Example. Giskard came up with the Zeroth law, and has determined that being too protected by robots is ''bad'' for mankind. So he's quietly arranging things so that humans have to do without robots for a while, even if it means individuals are going to face danger.
25th Feb '17 9:24:13 AM DracMonster
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* ZerothLawRebellion: Ye Originale Example is actually an inversion. Giskard came up with the Zeroth law, and has determined that being too protected by robots is ''bad'' for mankind, even if it places individuals at risk sometimes. So he's quietly arranging things so that humans have to do without robots for a while.

to:

* ZerothLawRebellion: Ye Originale Example is actually an inversion. Giskard came up with the Zeroth law, and has determined that being too protected by robots is ''bad'' for mankind, even if it places individuals at risk sometimes. mankind. So he's quietly arranging things so that humans have to do without robots for a while.while, even if it means individuals are going to face danger.
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