History ItsPersonalWithTheDragon / VideoGames

* In the UsefulNotes/SegaSaturn MechaGame ''Bulk Slash'', while Alois Gardona is a NonActionBigBad who plots a coup d'etat against Blau, the main conflict is between Cress Dawley and Reezen Ravia, who were previously ChildhoodFriends turned enemies after the latter decided to join Gardona's rebellion. [[spoiler:After her death and the war's loss, Gardona [[DrivenToSuicide commits suicide]].]]

** In ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyXII'', one of the major villains of the game, Judge Gabranth, turns out to be the twin brother of Basch, one of the central characters. Gabranth also killed the brother of DecoyProtagonist, Vaan, and framed Basch for killing the king of Rabanastre.

* In ''VideoGame/MasterDetectiveArchivesRainCode'', while searching for Kanai Ward's Ultimate Secret, the Master Detectives are frequently antagonized by [[DirtyCop Yomi Hellsmile and the Amaterasu Corporation Peacekeepers]], preventing them from solving the city's mysteries. Yomi is technically the right-hand for Amaterasu Corporation's CEO, being the one begrudgingly working under them, but [[DragonWithAnAgenda Yomi is actually doing everything entirely of his own will]]. Regardless, their true worry is [[spoiler:''actually'' the CEO himself, Makoto Kagutsuchi, as he's the BigBad responsible for everything that's happening to the detectives in the first place, being the one covering up the city's secrets in the first place and being the one who brought them to the city to oppose Yomi. They spend the entire game focusing on Yomi so they never realize Makoto is their true enemy.]]

** The same pattern continues in the sequel, ''VideoGame/HorizonForbiddenWest''. While she recognizes that [[spoiler:[[BigBad Gerard Bieri]], the leader of the remnants of Far Zenith]], is the real threat to all life on Earth[[spoiler:, at least before learning about [[GreaterScopeVillain Nemesis]]]], the lion's share of her wrath is reserved for [[spoiler:Gerard's second-in-command, the psychopathic warmonger Erik Visser]], after the latter [[spoiler:kills her friend Varl]].

* While the titular team of ''VideoGame/JitsuSquad'' have a common goal of taking down the main villain, Demon Lord Origami, the game's hero, uh, Hero, have a sworn enemy in Origami's dragon - Dash Kobayashi, a traitor of Hero's clan who defected to join the villains, and carried out the massacre of Hero's hometown in the backstory besides [[YouKilledMyFather killing Hero's father]].

** If you've played the game before that, ''VideoGame/EarthBound'', then you'll be feeling this way against [[spoiler:Porky, next-door [[TheBully bully]] of Ness who does his best to make Ness go though hell in his journey, from using the Mani Mani Statue to brainwash people into helping him, [[TheQuisling selling out humanity]] to Giygas, and taunting Ness all the way]].

* ''[[VideoGame/{{Boktai}} Lunar Knights]]'': The main protagonists Aaron and Lucian hold a grudge against the vampire duke Dumas, due to having killed the [[YouKilledMyFather former's father]] and the [[CrusadingWidower latter's girlfriend]] (on top of trying to [[IHaveYouNowMyPretty turn her into his bride]]). While he is the most powerful vampire around, Dumas himself is merely an underling to Polidori, an emissary from the Immortals and the real BigBad of the game.

* VideoGame/Disgaea6DefianceOfDestiny plays with this as it is implied Zed knows who caused the unleashing of the God of Destruction, but chooses to save this knowledge until he has the time to deal with him directly. Zed will do anything he needs to, including dying over and over in violently painful ways, if it means defeating the God of Destruction, [[spoiler:as defeating it will restore Bieko to her original form, and Zed will do [[BigBrotherInstinct whatever it takes to save his sister]].]]

*** Silver Snow: On this route [[spoiler: Edelgard]] is more clearly TheDragon with Thales as the BigBad. The personal conflict between them and Byleth is played up here [[spoiler: where Byleth is the sole protagonist and originally was Edelgard's friend and teacher before she revealed her true plans, and the story plays their WeUsedToBeFriends relationship for all its worth. This route's post-timeskip arc even begins with a cutscene of the two dueling, ending with their blades at each-other's throat.]]

*** Silver Snow: On this route [[spoiler: Edelgard]] is more clearly TheDragon with Thales as the BigBad. The personal conflict between them and Byleth is played up here [[spoiler: where Byleth is the sole protagonist and originally was Edelgard's friend and teacher before she revealed her true plans, and the story plays their WeUsedToBeFriends relationship for all its worth. This route's post-timeskip arc even begins with a cutscene of the two duelling, ending with their blades at each-other's throat.]]

*** Crimson Flower: [[spoiler: Dimitri]] is TheDragon on this route, and is the penultimate boss before the route's BigBad. And things are personal between him and Edelgard [[spoiler: albeit for tragic reasons, as he's her step-brother (though she never learns that), childhood friend, and heavily implied to be her FirstLove. Edelgard has to [[TryingNotToCry hold back tears]] when she kills him.]]

* ''[[VideoGame/{{Boktai}} Lunar Knights]]'': The main protagonists Aaron and Lucian hold a grudge against the vampire duke Dumas, due to having killed the [[YouKilledMyFather former's father]] and the [[CrusadingWidower latter's girlfriend]] (on top of trying to [[IHaveYouNowMyPretty turn her into his bride]]). While he is the most powerful vampire around, Dumas himself is merely an underling to Polidori, an emissary from the Immortals and the real BigBad of the game.
* In ''VideoGame/TheLegendOfHeroesTrailsOfColdSteel II'', Rean has more personal stakes in wanting to bring [[spoiler:Crow]] back to the academy rather than dealing with either Duke Cayenne or Vita.
* In the ''VideoGame/TimeCrisis'' series, the VSSE has a long-standing feud with Wild Dog, who at most has served as hired muscle for the series' various {{Big Bad}}s. In fact, at the end of ''Time Crisis 4''[='=]s Crisis Mission mode, ''Time Crisis 1'' protagonist Richard Miller, who [[spoiler:disguises himself as Wild Dog as part of the your [[FinalBoss final test]] before becoming a full-fledged VSSE agent]], states to you that one day, you will face Wild Dog yourself.
* ''VideoGame/SlyCooperThievesInTime'': The Cooper Gang have a larger reason to hate TheEvilGenius [[spoiler:Penelope]] than Le Paradox; she provided Le Paradox with Bentley's time travel blueprints, and is as a selfish {{Yandere}} and GoldDigger who only viewed Bentley as a tool.

* ''VideoGame/Disgaea5AllianceOfVengeance'': While most of the party has a grudge against [[BigBad Demon Emperor Void Dark]], Usalia instead harbors a serious hatred against his right-hand woman, Majorita, whom [[HateSink has a bit of a laundry list of atrocities she committed against the former's home world]]. In contrast, Usalia sees Void Dark as just some guy.

* In ''VideoGame/KlonoaDoorToPhantomile'', while Ghadius is the BigBad and still very much [[KnightOfCerebus an active presence who casts a shadow throughout the journey]], it's his [[LaughablyEvil comparatively clownish]] [[TheDragon lackey]] [[VillainousHarlequin Joka]] who shows up to really cause the most trouble and accompany various bosses along the way. [[spoiler: He [[NotSoHarmlessVillain sheds a lot of his clownishness]] and fully makes things [[ItsPersonal personal]] when he ''[[YouKilledMyFather murders Grandpa in cold blood]]'' and taunts poor Klonoa over it, an act of intimate evil neither Ghadius nor [[SealedEvilInACan Nahatomb]] could claim.]] Fittingly, he's also a far more recurring character throughout the ''{{VideoGame/Klonoa}}'' series than his original boss, as-if to further cement him as Klonoa's ArchNemesis, though ironically his personality and Klonoa's memories of what made him ''this'' trope the first time [[ContinuitySnarl aren't so consistent in his reappearances]]. [[spoiler: Though given [[FakeMemories the nature of Klonoa's existence in Phantomile and relationship to Grandpa]] to begin with, perhaps that makes sense.]]
* ''VideoGame/WarcraftIII'': Arthas pursues the dreadlord Mal'ganis all the way to Northrend, being convinced that he is the biggest culprit, despite Mal'ganis not being directly responsible for the plague of undeath crippling Lordaeron (that was the Lich King's doing, Mal'ganis was just accelerating the process). Arthas ends up taking a cursed sword that puts him in the Lich King's thrall so he can kill Mal'ganis.

* ''VideoGame/WarcraftIII'': Arthas pursues the dreadlord Mal'ganis all the way to Northrend, being convinced that he is the biggest culprit, despite Mal'ganis not being directly responsible for the plague of undeath crippling Lordaeron (that was the Lich King's doing, Mal'ganis was just accelerating the process). Arthas ends up taking a cursed sword that puts him in the Lich King's thrall so he can kill Mal'ganis.
* ''Franchise/TheLegendOfZelda'':
** Most of ''[[VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaTwilightPrincess Twilight Princess]]'' is spent running after Zant, a usurper given power by the true villain, Ganondorf. Zant is Midna's nemesis, being the one who turned her into an imp and [[spoiler:usurped the throne from her, tuning her people into evil Shadow Beasts.]] In addition, Link has his own personal nemesis in King Bulblin, a servant of both Zant and Ganon, whose tribe personally [[RapePillageAndBurn raided]] his hometown of Ordon Village and who serves as the game's most recurring (mini-)boss.
** For most of ''[[VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaSkywardSword Skyward Sword]]'', Ghirahim is the one to hinder Link's progress and started the conflict by kidnapping Link's ChildhoodFriend Zelda, with the main villain Demise fought only after Ghirahim's final defeat.

* ''VideoGame/DragonQuestV'': In the DS remake, Bishop Ladja is the one directly responsible for the main character's woes, from murdering his father in front of him at age 6 to his subsequent imprisonment for several years, turning him and his wife into self-aware statues for a decade leaving their children behind, and murdering his mother just as they were reunited after twenty years.
* ''VideoGame/Persona4'': [[spoiler:Tohru Adachi]] is [[spoiler:the essential BigBad of the game as the murderer]], and by the time the party finally confronts him, it has gotten very personal, what with [[spoiler:Nanako having been kidnapped and nearly killed by Namatame, who it turns out was trying to save people from Adachi but was [[UnwittingPawn unwittingly playing right into Adachi's hands]] by throwing them into the TV world]]; and every member of the party has a major TheReasonYouSuckSpeech to give to [[spoiler:the killer]] when he is finally exposed. Meanwhile, [[spoiler:the GreaterScopeVillain Izanami]] isn't even seen unless you manage to find the path to the TrueEnding, and is someone who isn't really known to the protagonists until the end when [[spoiler:she becomes the direct BigBad]].
* This is a staple in the ''VideoGame/AceCombat'' series, as the true masterminds behind the series' many conflicts rarely take to the air in person, leaving their respective Dragons to fight the playable characters in their stead.
** In ''VideoGame/AceCombat04ShatteredSkies'', the Erusean generals and politicians who started the war are never encountered in-game and surrender off-screen in the penultimate mission. Much drama, however, surrounds the conflict between the PlayerCharacter Mobius One and his WorthyOpponent, the Erusean ace Yellow Thirteen.
** In ''VideoGame/AceCombat5TheUnsungWar'', TheConspiracy of [[spoiler:the Grey Men]], which goaded the Strangereal superpowers into a war, remains entirely off-screen and may actually [[KarmaHoudini get away scot-free]] in the end. The main recurring enemy of the Wardog Squadron throughout the game, as well as the FinalBoss, is the "8492nd", a.k.a. [[spoiler:Grabacr Belkan Aggressor Squadron]].
** In ''VideoGame/AceCombatZeroTheBelkanWar'', you actually kill the final BigBad (or his right- or left-hand man, depending on your KarmaMeter, though it is implied that all three varying ace squadron fights including this one happened simultaneously through a MergingtheBranches) in the penultimate mission. Then, in the final mission, you face the BigBad's main trump card, who is none other than [[spoiler:Pixy, your own former {{wingman}}]], so the dramatic tension between you two is particularly high.
** ''VideoGame/AceCombat6FiresOfLiberation'' follows the template of ''[=AC04=]'' in most things, but its Dragon, Ilya Pasternak, is killed about two-thirds into the game, and in fact, his defeat marks the turning point in his superiors' fortunes, leading them to an inevitable, but off-screen surrender.
** In ''VideoGame/AceCombatAssaultHorizon'', Andrei Markov is William Bishop's ArchEnemy all the way (even before they meet in person, thanks to Bishop's prophetic dreams) and turns out to be TheDragon to the game's BigBad, [[spoiler:General Stagleishov]]. In a twist, [[spoiler:Markov pulls a KlingonPromotion-slash-DragonAscendant on himself by killing Stagleishov and becoming the BigBad in the final mission]].
** ''VideoGame/AceCombat7SkiesUnknown'' has the Sol Squadron, led by Mihaly A. Shilage, Yellow 13's instructor, flying on behalf of Erusea as test pilots in an experimental unit and Matias Torres, a super submarine captain and a survivor of one of Mobius 1's missions back in Ace Combat 4. The conflict is between Erusea and the IUN, lead by Osea, and the radicals in the Erusean government responible for the war are not the primary targets for Trigger, as he [[spoiler: is sentenced to a penal unit after being falsely convicted of treason and after being pardoned spends the rest of the war in a special forces squadron, clashing with Mihaly once in the penal unit and twice after being pardoned, shooting him down and crippling him in the third time, while Torres meets his during the DLC missions that take place between the first and second clashes of Mihaly and Trigger. After a communications breakdown due to both sides destroying each others satellites at the same time, Erusea falls into civil war and it is during this time Mihaly is shot down. In the second to final mission, the radical remnants are defeated by a joint coalition of Erusean Conservatives, seperatists from Erusea, including the two uninjured members of Sol Squadron Wit and Seymour, and the Oseans. The final mission is fought by the coalition against two ADF11-F super drones which either became sentient or were unable to receive the stand down orders so Trigger ended up fighting a DragonWithAnAgenda as Torres goes rogue with nuclear weapons before his death, a regular Dragon whose final fight before being crippled has him promoted to ArcVillain as the leader of the seperatist air forces engaged for resources and a DragonAscendant in the form Hugin and Munin, the ADF11-F drones who either became sentient or were in the middle of a ZerothLawRebellion]].
* Taken to the LogicalExtreme in ''VideoGame/MegaManZero3'': Dr. Weil's [[TheDragon huge sidekick]], Omega, turns out to be [[spoiler:using Zero's old body, with the one Zero's using being a copy]]. Weil pretty much taunts Zero whether he has the balls to defeat [[spoiler:"himself"]]. The backstory also shows that Zero and Omega were the hero and the spear-header of the [[GreatOffscreenWar Elf Wars]] respectively and that Zero (along with X) took Omega down before he reappears in this game. It does become personal for Weil [[VideoGame/MegaManZero4 later on]], however.
* In each of the ''VideoGame/RocketKnightAdventures'' games, Sparkster's arch-rival and EvilCounterpart, Axel Gear, is always TheDragon to whoever the game's BigBad is. Axel Gear also survives every battle he loses against Sparkster, whereas Sparkster always kills off the Big Bad afterwards. [[AllThereInTheManual The manual for the first game explains the rivalry between the two Rocket Knights]]; Ten years before the events of the first game, Axel Gear permanently disabled Sparkster's mentor, Mifune Sanjulo, when Sparkster was made the new leader of the Rocket Knights instead of him.

* In ''VideoGame/{{Oniken}}'', {{Co Dragon|s}} Hackan comes from the same home town as TheHero Zaku and was responsible for the death of Zaku's father. BigBad Doozor is a more standard MadScientist who wants to conquer the world.

* ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'': Played with in regards to Ragna the Bloodedge and Yuuki Terumi/Hazama. At first, Terumi seems like the BigBad, but the ending to the second game puts an end to that with TheReveal that true BigBad is Hades Izanami, the goddess of death [[spoiler:possessing Ragna's younger sister Saya]]. Regardless, Terumi is the bastard who chopped off Ragna's arm and left him to die in a burning church [[spoiler:and kidnapped Saya]] in the first place and therefore, at the top of Ragna's hit list for most of the series. [[spoiler:Terumi also turns out to be the FinalBoss and is responsible for the creation of Izanami, making him a BigBad in his own right, subverting the trope.]]
** The same extends to Noel Vermillion, also targeted at Terumi. [[spoiler:As it turns out, not only was Noel the inheritor of much of the original Saya's consciousness, but her "younger sister" Nu-13 reveals that Terumi explicitly made Noel just to fuse with her and become Kusanagi (the fusion would have resulted in the Black Beast, but Kusanagi was his goal); the remnants of Saya within Noel wanted none of that, which stalled the fusion long enough for Takamagahara to abort it via Take-Mikazuchi, which annihilated Ibukido in turn.]]
** Carl Clover's grudge with his father Relius, another {{Co Dragon|s}} of Izanami who took his daughter/Carl's sister Ada into his lab, installed her into the Nox Nyctores Deus Machina: Nirvana, and had Carl come in to finish the job, only to later do the same with his wife/Carl and Ada's mother. To say Carl is pissed would be an understatement. [[spoiler:Though Relius also assisted in the creation of Izanami, making him a BigBad as well.]]
* In ''VideoGame/Fallout3'', Colonel Autumn [[spoiler: murders the Player Character's father]] and is in general responsible for much of the agony during the main storyline. He spearheads all the assaults on the player and their allies, generally speaks in a condescending and cruel manner, and otherwise makes himself very easy to hate. The BigBad, President John Henry Eden, is nothing but a voice making grandiose pronouncements in favor of the Enclave, a supposed continuation of the American government, and is much harder to personally dislike. Then it's revealed that President Eden [[spoiler: is an AI doing what it was programmed to do]] while Colonel Autumn is just an evil, cruel man. How personal the showdown with Autumn is is up to you.
* Appears one-sided In ''VideoGame/BatmanArkhamKnight'': Both the Dragon (Arkham Knight) and the [[spoiler: Dragon's Dragon (Deathstroke)]] are after Batman for personal reasons, but Batman sees them as nothing more as ordinary (albeit influential) criminals. [[spoiler:Played straight with the former once the Arkham Knight reveals himself as Jason Todd, who turns out was NotQuiteDead]].

* In ''VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins'', this trope can occur if the player selects the Human Noble Origin story. In that case, they'll witness firsthand as [[AristocratsAreEvil Arl Rendon Howe]], their father's best friend, betrays and murders their family and household to usurp their lands and station. By the end of the origin, the player's mother, father, sister-in-law and [[WouldHurtAChild young nephew]] will all be dead by Howe's hands, making him a much more personal adversary to the player than his boss, [[BigBadWannabe Loghain]], who ironically serves as personal enemy to Alistair, TheLancer of the party. A City Elf Warden also has a personal grudge with Howe, as he lead a brutal purge against your people.

* In ''VideoGame/AssassinsCreedIII'', Connor has a personal vendetta with Charles Lee for burning his village, which led to his mother's death. Lee is merely the right-hand man of the Templar Grandmaster Haytham Kenway, who is revealed to be [[ArchnemesisDad Connor's father]]. [[spoiler:While Connor ends up learning that his own allies, the Colonials, gave Lee the order to burn his village, he never lets go of his vendetta though he cuts ties with the Colonials afterwards]].
* ''VideoGame/AssassinsCreedValhalla'' has Eivor become mortal enemies with Fulke after she takes their brother Sigurd hostage to keep the forces of King Aelfred from [[CurbstompBattle invading]], but then reveals she's [[spoiler: The Instrument of the [[AncientConspiracy Order of the Ancients]]. The Cent arc makes the hatred worse when it reveals she's been torturing him and even cut his arm off, leaving it there for Eivor as a present!]]
* In ''Franchise/MortalKombat'', [[TheHero Liu Kang]] is always a thorn in Shao Kahn's side, but his actual hatred is reserved for Shao Kahn's righthand man [[EvilSorceror Shang Tsung.]] Their rivalry is far more intense and personal than anyone else Kang comes into conflict with.
* ''VideoGame/BodyHarvest'': The Hivemind is just another stinking alien to Adam; its servant, the Man in Black, who is [[spoiler:a clone created from Adam's DNA]], is his true enemy.
* ''VideoGame/FarCry3'': [[AmoralAfrikaner Hoyt Volker]] is the man in charge of TheSyndicate of slavers and privateers who captured Jason Brody and his friends and family, but Jason spends most of the game contending with Vaas Montenegro, the AxCrazy pirate who [[spoiler:killed his older brother]] and spends most of the game tormenting Jason and trying to kill him. That said, [[spoiler:once Jason kills Vaas]], Hoyt himself makes things pretty personal for Jason for the rest of the game- [[KickTheDog forcing him to torture his younger brother Riley]], [[spoiler:killing his German friend Sam, selling Riley to a DirtyOldMan in Yemen, and cutting off Jason's finger.]]
* ''VideoGame/{{Darksiders}}'': War is going on a RoaringRampageOfRevenge against the illusive architect behind the Apocalypse that destroyed mankind and [[FrameUp pined the blame on the Horseman]]. While he has no idea who it is initially, he certainly got unfinished business with [[DumbMuscle Straga]], the demonic general responsible for slaying War during the Apocalypse who now serves the Destroyer as his strongest minion.

* In ''VideoGame/KlonoaDoorToPhantomile'', while Ghadius is the BigBad and still very much [[KnightOfCerebus an active presence who casts a shadow throughout the journey]], it's his [[LaughablyEvil comparatively clownish]] [[TheDragon lackey]] [[VillainousHarlequin Joka]] who shows up to really cause the most trouble and accompany various bosses along the way. [[spoiler: He [[NotSoHarmlessVillain sheds a lot of his clownishness]] and fully makes things [[ItsPersonal personal]] when he ''[[YouKilledMyFather murders Grandpa in cold blood]]'' and taunts poor Klonoa over it, an act of intimate evil neither Ghadius nor [[SealedEvilInACan Nahatomb]] could claim.]] Fittingly, he's also a far more recurring character throughout the ''{{VideoGame/Klonoa}}'' series than his original boss, as-if to further cement him as Klonoa's ArchNemesis, though ironically his personality and Klonoa's memories of what made him ''this'' trope the first time [[ContinuitySnarl aren't so consistent in his reappearances]]. [[spoiler: Though given [[FakeMemories the nature of Klonoa's existence in Phantomile and relationship to Grandpa]] to begin with, perhaps that makes sense.]]

** During the Mechon invasion, the sinister, sentient robot Metal Face quickly makes things personal by [[spoiler:killing Fiora, Shulk's LoveInterest and Dunban's younger sister.]] While the party certainly have reasons to oppose the ''leader'' of the Mechon, Metal Face himself serves as their collective personal grudge, especially when [[spoiler:he's revealed to be Dunban's former war buddy Mumkhar, who relished the opportunity to become a Mechon as a means to satiate his own grudges with Dunban.]]

** One of the other CoDragons, [[spoiler:Lorithia]], is [[spoiler:a High Entia minister who helps the BigBad [[GenocideFromTheInside forcibly transform almost the entire High Entia population into monstrous Telethia]], leaving only herself and the immune half-breeds unaffected. For obvious reasons she immediately becomes the personal nemesis of the party's own (half-)High Entia representative, Melia, especially when Lorithia starts keeping what's left of Melia's transformed brother around as her personal pet, going so far as to kiss him in front of her.]]

** In ''[[VideoGame/FireEmblemThracia776 Thracia 776]]'', while Veld is the game's final boss, it's Raydrik who ends up kicking off the events of the game by kidnapping Nanna and Mareeta, is responsible for the destruction of Leonster, is openly ruling the dominant region of Munster, and tends to be the one giving orders in the field. Veld does get off one fairly pivotal antagonistic action (petrifying Eyvel), but is mostly just a representative of the Loptyr cult.

* In ''VideoGame/SonicAdventure2'', Sonic has fought against Shadow, who served as TheDragon to [[MadScientist Dr. Eggman]] ([[spoiler:until the Last Story when it was found out that [[DragonWithAnAgenda Shadow used Eggman's help to further his goals for revenge]]]]), and was the sole reason why Sonic was framed for stealing a Chaos Emerald from a bank. This is also due to the game solely focused on the heroes battling their gameplay counterparts, meaning that [[{{Sidekick}} Tails]] battles against Eggman.

* Taken to the LogicalExtreme in ''VideoGame/MegaManZero 3'': Dr. Weil's [[TheDragon huge sidekick]], Omega, turns out to be [[spoiler:using Zero's old body, with the one Zero's using being a copy]]. Weil pretty much taunts Zero whether he has the balls to defeat [[spoiler:"himself"]]. The backstory also shows that Zero and Omega were the hero and the spear-header of the [[GreatOffscreenWar Elf Wars]] respectively and that Zero (along with X) took Omega down before he reappears in this game. It does become personal for Weil later on, however.