Okay, I'm just gonna axe this entire folder, because the basic "headscratcher" here boils down to "Rand is a Marty Stu" - which is not a headscratcher, it's just complaining about a the character.

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[[folder:Rand]]
He starts out in Book 1 as a clueless Sheepherder. By Book 2, he's a genuine Blademaster by right of having defeated one in fair single combat according to WordOfGod, despite having been training for less than a year. By about halfway through the series, he's the single most powerful channeler alive, a master martial artist, a skilled leader of nations (being Ta'Veren doesn't teach you the Game of Houses, jurisprudence, or how to manage the economy, sorry), and to top it all off, he's got THREE girls in his bed, each of whom is fine with the idea of sharing him with the other two. Oh, and he's a giant prick to a great many people, all of whom either like him anyway or obey him regardless. He is a Marty Stu on par with Eragon, and don't you DARE argue otherwise.
* Watch us:
* I got the idea that he was that way through a combination of reincarnation and being ta'veren. So yes, but at the very least he has in-universe justification.
** Arguably in-universe lampshading; in-story comments on the effects of being ta'veren can be treated as a gigantic lampshade hung on the entire ''concept'' of the improbably heroic hero who benefits from ridiculous luck and masters complex abilities in a hurry. Of course, that didn't stop the author from invoking exactly that concept in his own series...
* The Dragon, that is Rand, was specifically woven into the Pattern to be the Light's champion against the Forces of Evil. So it would be a surprise is he wasn't an extremely powerful channeling prodigy.
* Let's see: before Asmodean Rand hardly knows what he's doing with channeling, and it's pretty clear Lews Therin is bleeding through often, and he is the strongest channeler. The Blademaster part is worse, but Rand hardly dominates any of his fights there. And oh yes he's had Moiraine, Thom, and Elayne all telling him about the Game of Houses plus Berelain and a few others doing most of the actual governing. All in all Rand's not bad for being a main character destined to save the world.
** It was said by one of the Forsaken that he and Lews Therin were the ones who reintroduced swordsmanship as a combat art, and that Lews was blademaster level as well, so that can be because of reincarnation bleed-through as well, combined with the fact that he was raised by a secret blademaster who taught him a focusing trick that was coincidentally the best way to master swordsmanship, archery and saidin.
* I'd have to agree. His martial prowess is surprising in so short a time but I always figured he was becoming adept at the Game of Houses because he is embroiled in it all day, every damn day and so is not unexpected and becoming better at politics doesn't necessarily make him a skilled ruler. He appoints stewards precisely because they are better at managing the economies of the nations they are in charge of, I believe Tear's steward/king (his name escapes me just now) was appointed because Rand hadn't been able to work with the fractious nobles there. Rand frequently uses the same tactic with generalship I believe, recognizing he isn't as skilled some of his captains, though to my mind he appears reasonably competent in all of these things. 
** I also don't believe people obeying him regardless of if he acts like a prick is surprising or unjustified, nor universally true. Those who obey him no matter what do so according to prophecy (though its not so much they obey, the Aiel wouldn't follow too insane an order I suppose, but their backing is seen as a given by most I would guess) and thus he has an enormous base of support meaning a lot of the people he orders around while acting a bit prickish really do see no choice. I mean the man is becomingly increasingly unhinged but still people follow him, I assume because he is so dangerously powerful, not because they like him anyway or have much choice. Plenty have apparently refused to follow him because of his actions (I'm thinking Tear again) so I think he has had to face the consequences of cock ups occasionally.
*** Also, many historic leaders were harsh to subordinates or famous for having a short temper; as long as you don't annoy your people enough that they start betraying you, you can get surprisingly far while being a prick. Especially if there are prophecies about what a badass you are and you've just finished conquering several major countries.
*** Quite frankly what really bugged me was the last time I read the series I felt sorry for the bloke as he has so much on his plate and yet it people continue to chastise him for being rude and other pointless seeming things given their situation, while they are continuously rude to him and treat him like an idiot (sometimes justified but still). Give the poor guy a break and be nice to him for a change and maybe he'll lighten up a bit. I fail to see how striking someone with the power (Cadsuane, if memory serves) for rudeness is less rude than him yelling at people because the weight of the world is on his shoulders and is constantly dealing with a complex multi fronted war, enemies within and without his borders, a fractured Tower, backstabbing and or manipulative allies and encroaching insanity and eventual death. Nice job doing whatever your doing Cadsuane, its working like a charm. The three woman thing seems pure MartyStu though.
*** My thoughts ''exactly''. Every time I read people (usually women - see above) chastising him, I just yearn to see him turn and growl "I've kinda got a ''lot'' on my fucking mind here! Back off before I display the effects of the ChunkySalsaRule on your bony hide." But he never does. Pussy.
**** One of the reasons he kept Cadsuane around was because of Min's viewing that she was going to teach him something important. He keeps most of the others because of another viewing that said he could trust them. It was awesome when he finally told her in Book 12 [[spoiler: to get lost and that he would kill her if he ever saw her face again]], though.
**** Yeah Book 12 is really the book where he says "DONE TAKING YOUR BULLHIT" to everyone. It's pretty gratifying to FINALLY see all the characters who have been deliberately pissing him off this whole time finally realize just how much of a [[BullyingADragon: sleeping]] [[IncrediblyLamePun: dragon]] they have been pissing off this whole time, and just what he could do to them if he felt like it. However that said, it's pretty obvious that he needs a change [[spoiler: which he gets at the end of the book]]
* The strength of his channeling is inborn. His ''knowledge'' of channeling is due partly to Asmodean's teaching and partly to having Lews Therin in his head, and he's shown to be quite ignorant compared to the Aes Sedai. I wouldn't call him a "skilled" leader of nations. Despite the advice of Moraine and Thom, he ends up delegating everything to people like Dobraine and Berelain who actually know what they're doing; when he does try to do something himself it usually consists of his shouting at someone and their obeying because he's barking mad and could kill them in an instant (and then usually going right back to whatever they were doing when he leaves again). The swordmanship thing kind of bugs me too, but if I recall, Lews Therin was a blademaster too, and no one's quite sure exactly how the soul-linky-thing works anyway. The girls are a different story entirely.
** I always got the impression that the blademaster thing was a combination of having an actual blademaster in his head somewhere, the 'trick' he uses being magic in and of itself and the length and level of his instruction, still a bit quick though.
*** It was stated a few times that he spent most of his time out in the Waste learning how to fight with a sword from Lan ( probably one of the most deadly men on the planet with a sword ), and how to fight the Aiel way ( spears, plus unarmed ) from Rhuarc. Plus, there was the month time-skip between the first two books he spent learning from Lan. There are probably many other instances in the first few books that show Rand either spending most of his time learning from a master ( swords or otherwise ), or spending time practicing. Spending that much time practicing -- even if it's not being spent in mock fights ( although it seems like that's how he spent most of his time training with Lan ) -- ''will'' make you a better fighter. For example, he managed to hold his own not only against one blademaster ( the Seanchan High Lord in book two ), but two ( against one of the Foresaken at the end of book three -- the one that had helped Lewis Therin take "the old sport of swords and turn it into a deadly art", if this troper remembers correctly ). There was also a throw-away line in book four about Lan saying that Rand was nearly a blademaster, and since Lan tended to be Randlands greatest master of understatement, it seems that Rand was probably Creator-damn deadly with a sword. 
* What nobody besides me picks up on what is going on with the women? Each is a particular type of romance plot. Elayne the fairy tale princess romance. Aviendha the fiery and turbulent romance. And Min is the girl next door. Why does Rand have all three? Because the Dragon is not merely a hero, he's ''every hero ever'' via reincarnation. If its a common hero plotline, its one the Dragon plays out by being who what he is. And there is more then one type of romantic relationship, thus the Dragon gets more then one type of romance. Putting things at an enormous scale is the defining trait of this series folks.
** Also its not like anybody involved is blind to the implications of the situation, it took the characters books to get resolved to the situation themselves.
** And if nothing else it is deliberately questioning the assumptions of modern society. Polygamy is ancient and fairly common in human history. What do people feel like in such a situation, or are we too assume all such situations were hopelessly conflicted and unhappy?
*** Rand's got the short end of the stick when it comes to polygamy. Rhuarc, on the other hand, is doing just fine. 'Course, among the Aiel, it's the women who make marriage proposals, and the wives have the most say in their husband's other marriages, so good feelings is likely a natural state among polygamous Aiel marriages...
** In addition, it's vaguely implied (no references unfortunately, as it's a while since this editor read the series through) that the three women somehow share the soul of Lews Therin's love, Ilyena. 
*** I don't think it was actually implied, but it's a popular fan theory.
* Bear in mind, while Rand has tremendous abilities, he also has tremendous burdens, physical, mental, and political. Wounds that never heal, lost hand, encroaching insanity, a squabbling coalition that only sticks together due to fear of him, and the constant threat of assassins and "bubbles of evil." Bear in mind, despite all literary evidence to the contrary, in-universe he is supposed to be highly intelligent. Also remember, that intelligent does not always mean wise. The fact that he makes numerous mistakes does not prove that he is stupid, even the best fail from time to time. While Robert Jordan crafted a character with abilities of pure awesomeness, he gave him spine-crushing burdens, and made him human enough to deserve empathy
* This Troper has lost all sympathy with Rand, and would [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation argue that he's just a straight-out]] KnightTemplar. Or if nothing else, just a total jerk who happens to be the protagonist. Oh, incidentally, I don't think Rand actually ''does'' manage the economy (delegation, y'know). But I could be wrong.
** All in the mind of the reader no doubt. He actually does a pretty good job of ruling if we count his delegating to competent people who will keep the place as united as possible, which is all he really wants, no one could rule an empire his size without significant delegation, and since he thinks he will die anyway it is probably best he is not handling all the administrative details of the new system he has set up, assuming any of it survives. He handles the policy decisions. He may well act as a jerk, and does, but given all he had to deal with, and how people have acted to him even when they think he is supposed to save them, another interpretation is they need him to act as he does. Can you imagine that lot ever responding to anything he does were he not a dangerously unstable human nuke? At least he has some excuse for jerk behaviour, unlike so many for whom it appears just the way they like it, or something one acquires the second they gain any power. Rand can be a jerk, and angst over the wrong things (possibly to avoid being overwhelmed by the things he should angst about), but the things he has to deal with, what he is expected to do, and how even longtime friends are willing to believe the worst about him based on stories (Egwene), the fact that people don't appreciate the things he does well, and the constant getting treated like shit and being told he has to put up with it, makes him so sympathetic despite so many flaws of his own making.
*** Yeah, and the one time the few people who truly ''do'' appreciate what he does were threatened with death by Lanfear, [[WouldntHitAGirl he didn't bother to put her out of the picture]]. Then Lanfear kills Moiraine. [[NiceJobBreakingItHero Gotta love Rand]].
**** Except that Rand is clearly anguished over what happened, and ''knows'' he failed Moiraine. Yes, he was stupid to put HonorBeforeReason when it came to women, and to still not let this go until [[spoiler:Semirhage forces him to]], but he still regretted what happened and constantly blames himself for it. He may have 'broken it', but that doesn't stop him from still being a good guy--the very fact he feels remorse for what happened proves he's not the jerk you think he is. Also, thanks to going through the rings in Rhuidean, Moiraine knew Rand would be unable to kill Lanfear unless she did something--but you didn't see her acting as if this made Rand a monstrous jerk. She just understood he had a flaw, and did her best to work around it, perhaps hoping that in the process her sacrifice would give him a wakeup call. His stubbornness (or maybe his madness) kept that from happening, but it still doesn't make him unsympathetic, just flawed.
**** But you're missing the point. He feels hugely guilty for what happened, but he doesn't bother to re-evaluate his behaviour that helped lead to it. It's like a drink driver having a car accident (due to inebriation) in which a passenger dies, feeling hugely guilty about it, then continuing to drink drive. Feeling guilty about something is not admirable and is utterly useless ''if'' you don't bother to even consider fixing what caused the horrible situation, or consider how to avoid a similar situation happening again. The whole point of guilt is that it motivates self-improvement. Rand, unless I am mistaken, just moped, but didn't even bother to think about how to do better next time. That ''does'' make him unsympathetic.
**** No, you're missing the point. First off, if simply feeling guilt doesn't make someone a sympathetic person then it seems you have a rather narrow view of what makes someone sympathetic. Which could explain why so many people do still feel sorry for Rand, while you're one of the few who doesn't. This doesn't make Rand (or you) a bad person, nor is it a sign of bad writing, it just means that different people have different levels of what is acceptable and worthy of forgiveness. Second, if you look farther above, it has been made fairly clear that this issue of Rand's is a) a result of his madness, and b) because his conscience has fixated on this not killing women thing as the one thing he can do to retain his morality and not cross the MoralEventHorizon (from his perspective). So he won't re-evaluate and reconsider because he thinks this is the only thing keeping him from becoming a monster, and he can't do so because his madness won't let him. Witness what happens to him in ''The Gathering Storm'' when he does finally cross that self-imposed line--he becomes far worse than he ever was, and is indeed, at that point, entirely unsympathetic. Which just proves my point that before this he was stupid and misguided, but not unsympathetic yet. Lastly, while we have not gotten into his head enough to know for sure, the way he is acting in ''Towers of Midnight'' after his moment on Dragonmount suggests to me that he has done the re-evaluating and reconsidering you wished him to do, and he agrees with you that he needs to change his ways because he is no longer mad. Because we never see him ordering women out of danger, and in fact he takes the Maidens with him everywhere even into Bandar Eban (where there could well have been riots), Maradon (where there were hundreds of thousands of Shadowspawn), and Far Madding (where if things had gone differently the Maidens could easily have died in battle with the Borderlander armies). Yes, he did tell Cadsuane to take Min through a gateway, but that is simply common sense--there's nothing one woman, especially a non-channeler, could have done against the armies, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to get a person you love out of danger. The fact he was willing to face the armies to protect Min, armies which included the female Borderlander rulers, is also telling. So in the end, whether or not Rand was sympathetic beforehand, he certainly is now.
**** Also, he ''couldn't'' put Lanfear out of the picture, since he was busy barely being able to hold her off while she was somehow amped by a ter'angreal of some sort and he was busy trying not to go completely insane from Lews Therin going berserk inside his head as a reaction to his crazy old girlfriend being there.
**** We'll never know if he could have incapacitated Lanfear, because he didn't even try.
* Rand is completely insane and a jerk by the middle of the series. You're not supposed to like him all the time, you're just supposed to hope he can get the job done anyway and cheer for the occasional badassery. He's not a MartyStu, he's the ChosenOne after he cracks under the pressure. None of his 'gifts' are actually any good. Would you want to be him?
** An excellent point. Book 12 would seem to make this abundantly clear, as he is a bigger jerk than ever, as well as borderline [[spoiler: genocidal after Semirhage's assault]] in addition to becoming progressively crazier and losing control. He's snapped. Other people see it, but he is still the chosen one and so they try to deal with it. That one can understand why he would crack as he has, and that he is still the best weapon to face the shadow and people acknowledge that, does not mean his jerkiness is excused, it just makes it so very sad and terrifying that he has come to this. One hopes that [[spoiler: after nearly killing his own father and contemplating destroying all reality until he steps back from the brink at the last]] he will be able to alter his behaviour and finally stem the tide in his prolonged psychotic break (I'm thinking from around book 6 at the least, being worst in book 12). 
* When Rand gets his hand blown off, everyone gathers around all sad and angsts about how there's nothing that can be done for it. Why does no-one even mention that a 60-second balefire rewind could get it back? I can understand something like 'we need interrigation more than we need my hand', or 'we need to not balescream the pattern more than we need my hand'...but come on, [[IdiotBall not even thinking about it]]? 
** Personally, I thought that was completely in character. Given that the section is told from Rand's point of view, the only way one would hear someone else think about using balefire is if they suggested it, and given that every other character seems to have a holy terror of using balefire, it's pretty unbelievable for someone to suggest it aloud (even if they might think it). On Rand's part, he was pretty deep into his "must not care about all imporant the parts of me I'm sacrificing" funk, and it's not that surprising for him to not have thought of using balefire for something as "trivial" as his hand.
*** Plus it would require him to kill a woman. Remember, Semirhage being a woman was enough for him to order that she not be tortured; even if he might decide to balefire her, he wouldn't be able to come to that decision quickly enough to save his hand.
*** Not without using unGodly amounts of balefire anyway, who knows how much was undone by his balefireing [[spoiler: Graendal's castle]] in book 13.
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6th Apr '13 9:21:47 PM Narvi

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6th Apr '13 9:21:13 PM Narvi

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5th Apr '13 6:28:53 PM DrowLord

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* Why are the Forsaken such good swordfighters?  Mind-meltingly awesome fight though it was, this was the one thing that bugged me about Lan vs. [[spoiler:Demandred]], with Lan realizing before and during the fight that the latter was the better fighter.  ''How??''  The Age of Legends up to the War of Shadow were fairly peaceful all around, and it's explicitly stated that swordfighting as a martial art was lost until rediscovered and essentially rebuilt from the ground up by Lews Therin and one of the eventual-Forsaken (Be'lal?).  Granted, the forsaken with weapon training have probably had a couple of centuries of life, but no implication beyond casual practice even then (why would they need it, when they have guns and magic, both far more deadly and efficient?).  The Third Age, meanwhile, shows a lowering of technology to medieval levels, and a resurgence of low-tech melee for crafting and fighting.  And Lan in particular is practically born with a sword in his hands, is universally-reputed and to be Death on legs and ''demonstrates'' it, and belongs to cultures shaped by 3000 years of continuous martial arts development in cultures where they're necessary.  And he's not as good as a someone who didn't need swords in their previous life at all, and has only been around a couple of years in Randland?  That's about the equivalent of [[http://www.thearma.org/essays/ModernMasterMyth.htm a modern ARMA instructor being a better fighter than a Renaissance-era knight]].

5th Apr '13 5:47:36 PM DrowLord

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** It was Rand's second time, actually (his first was with Aviendha).  In any case, the situation was Rand phenomenally misinterpreting what happened.  It wasn't that Rand mistakenly believed he was raping Min, but that he believed he ''raped'' her, past tense deliberate and necessary.  Neither of them were thinking about much during the incident, which was spurred by learning that a friend of theirs was killed and the two desperately needing to finally [[CanNotSpitItOut spit it out]] and reassure themselves that they had each other.  Rand mainly didn't have the emotional maturity or experience needed to recognize that, and assumed after that fact that the mindlessness and desperation he felt meant he forced the issue.  Bear in mind, he comes from a fairly conservative culture when it comes to sex (he proposed to Aviendha after his first time), he has psychological issues with putting women on pedestals even beyond that, and he genuinely loves Min, so he's even more hypersensitive about her opinion.  Min probably didn't have much call to laugh, but it ''was'' a good thing that she reminded him that she was acting in exactly the same way ("Rand, you don't remember how I started ripping your shirt off because you weren't stripping fast enough for me?").

2nd Apr '13 10:33:17 PM Robrecht

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*** One thing I think people are forgetting is the massive quantities of UnreliableNarrator most of the viewpoint characters get. In the eyes of Nynaeve and Egwene, who grew up with him, Mat is an incorigable lech constantly forcing his attentions on women. In his own narration, he's a perfect gentleman who wouldn't ever think to take advantage of a woman. And Jordan loved putting little clues that the situation is not exactly as the viewpoint character describes throughout his books. Such as Tylin telling Mat that she knows he did enjoy himself with her even if he pretends not to (which he doesn't contradict, but actually confirms, even in his own thoughts). Mat is an incredibly proud man who has a worldview that dictates men are supposed to pursue women, not the other way around. The way he describes it Tylin is a lecherous woman forcing him into her bedchamber, but he never actually right out says 'no'. Mat even goes so far as to tell Tylin he'll miss her and that next time, he'll be the one chasing her, when he's about to leave towards the end of a Crown of Swords.

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