History Headscratchers / SwordArtOnline

7th Nov '17 4:35:44 PM bigbossdiego
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** Regardless of Kayaba's status as an adult, that still doesn't excuse his actions. Neither does the notion that morality is subjective, a notion that, even if it is true, is not useful in determining how to act. You don't need anything more than a pure, animalistic reflex to the notion that Kayaba is the worst cyber-criminal in history, responsible for over 3000 deaths, in order to hate him so long as your morality lines up with what is conventionally seen as functional. I don't think it's human for Kirito to want to understand someone so abhorrent, and even if he did, his reaction and description of him implies far more than mere understanding. And this may come as a shock to you, but between a guy raping one girl and a guy killing thousands of people, the latter is the worse person simply by a matter of scale. It doesn't matter how they carry themselves. Yes, lashing out at Kayaba would be an emotional thing to do, but it would be a reasonable emotional response to someone like him appearing. And reasoning? Kayaba literally said, the entire reason he started this thing. We know why he made SAO, but not the death game.

to:

** Regardless of Kayaba's status as an adult, that still doesn't excuse his actions. Neither does the notion that morality is subjective, a notion that, even if it is true, is not useful in determining how to act. You don't need anything more than a pure, animalistic reflex to the notion that Kayaba is the worst cyber-criminal in history, responsible for over 3000 deaths, in order to hate him so long as your morality lines up with what is conventionally seen as functional. I don't think it's human for Kirito to want to understand someone so abhorrent, and even if he did, his reaction and description of him implies far more than mere understanding. And this may come as a shock to you, but between a guy raping one girl and a guy killing thousands of people, the latter is the worse person simply by a matter of scale. Yes, Sugou was also working on brainwashing tech, but Kirito didn't even know that. It doesn't matter how they carry themselves. Yes, lashing out at Kayaba would be an emotional thing to do, but it would be a reasonable emotional response to someone like him appearing. And reasoning? Kayaba literally said, the entire reason he started this thing. We know why he made SAO, but not the death game.
7th Nov '17 4:33:38 PM bigbossdiego
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Added DiffLines:

** Regardless of Kayaba's status as an adult, that still doesn't excuse his actions. Neither does the notion that morality is subjective, a notion that, even if it is true, is not useful in determining how to act. You don't need anything more than a pure, animalistic reflex to the notion that Kayaba is the worst cyber-criminal in history, responsible for over 3000 deaths, in order to hate him so long as your morality lines up with what is conventionally seen as functional. I don't think it's human for Kirito to want to understand someone so abhorrent, and even if he did, his reaction and description of him implies far more than mere understanding. And this may come as a shock to you, but between a guy raping one girl and a guy killing thousands of people, the latter is the worse person simply by a matter of scale. It doesn't matter how they carry themselves. Yes, lashing out at Kayaba would be an emotional thing to do, but it would be a reasonable emotional response to someone like him appearing. And reasoning? Kayaba literally said, the entire reason he started this thing. We know why he made SAO, but not the death game.
28th Oct '17 6:09:21 PM 44no44
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** To unify what's already said: anyone can hold two weapons in SAO - they just can't fight effectively with them. The light novels, which give a lot more information on the actual mechanics of the game, it's explained that how much damage a weapon deals depends on how it is equipped and what "sword skills" you are using with it. The anime somehow completely fails to explain sword skills, but basically, just swinging a weapon at an enemy does barely anything. Instead, you have to use specific attacks (sword skills), which are preset movements that your body will automatically go through once you initiate them by posing in a specific position. Any time you see someone do an attack and it glows, that's because it's a sword skill. Sword skills can't be interrupted when started, so SAO players use the "switch" system of leapfrogging eachother with attacks, so as to cover eachother during their moves' laggy ending frames. But, they're way faster than players can move otherwise [[spoiler:which is why Yuuki is such a big deal in ALO, which adds a feature to record your own movements to make original sword skills - she creates sword skills that are way faster than any normal player can move]]), and are the only way to deal real damage. The beginning scene where Klein gets messed up by a generic boar was an introduction to this in the novel. He can barely hurt it, because he's just swinging his sword instead of equipping it through the right menu and using its sword skills. Players with extremely high stats can actually fight with that scratch damage, but it isn't optimal. [[spoiler:Kirito is forced to do this against Kayaba in the final battle, since Kayaba, being a dev, would know all of his sword skills and be able to block them all. The whole reason Kirito loses that duel in the light novel is because he gets overconfident right at the end and triggers a 24-hit dual-wield skill The Eclipse (replaced in the anime with Starburst Stream, the 16-hitter he used against Gleameyes), which Kayaba then perfect-blocks as expected.]] \\
So all of that explanation out of the way: the random dual-axes guy, and anyone else, can definitely just equip one weapon and spawn another one straight from their inventory and hold both. But only the one equipped properly would have access to sword skills or do any meaningful damage. In order to properly equip both at once, and thus be able to use sword skills with both at once, you need Kirito's unique skill. Heathkliff's unique skill (which might not have even been mentioned in the anime?) is the same way - literally anyone can just equip a shield, but only by having his unique skill can you equip it *as a weapon*, letting you do offensive shield skills with it for meaningful damage. \\

to:

** To unify what's already said: anyone can hold two weapons in SAO - they just can't fight effectively with them. The light novels, which give a lot more information on the actual mechanics of the game, it's explained that how much damage a weapon deals depends on how it is equipped and what "sword skills" you are using with it. The anime somehow completely fails to explain sword skills, but basically, just swinging a weapon at an enemy does barely anything. Instead, you have to use specific attacks (sword skills), which are preset movements that your body will automatically go through once you initiate them by posing in a specific position. Any time you see someone do an attack and it glows, that's because it's a sword skill. Sword skills can't be interrupted when started, so SAO players use the "switch" system of leapfrogging eachother with attacks, so as to cover eachother during their moves' laggy ending frames. But, they're way faster than players can move otherwise [[spoiler:which is why Yuuki is such a big deal in ALO, which adds a feature to record your own movements to make original sword skills - she creates sword skills that are way faster than any normal player can move]]), and are the only way to deal real damage. The beginning scene where Klein gets messed up by a generic boar was an introduction to this in the novel. He can barely hurt it, because he's just swinging his sword instead of equipping it through the right menu and using its sword skills. Players with extremely high stats can actually fight with that scratch damage, but it isn't optimal. [[spoiler:Kirito is forced to do this against Kayaba in the final battle, since Kayaba, being a dev, would know all of his sword skills and be able to block them all. The whole reason Kirito loses that duel in the light novel is because he gets overconfident right at the end and triggers a 24-hit dual-wield skill The Eclipse (replaced in the anime with Starburst Stream, the 16-hitter he used against Gleameyes), which Kayaba then perfect-blocks as expected.]] \\
\\\
So all of that explanation out of the way: the random dual-axes guy, and anyone else, can definitely just equip one weapon and spawn another one straight from their inventory and hold both. But only the one equipped properly would have access to sword skills or do any meaningful damage. In order to properly equip both at once, and thus be able to use sword skills with both at once, you need Kirito's unique skill. Heathkliff's unique skill (which might not have even been mentioned in the anime?) is the same way - literally anyone can just equip a shield, but only by having his unique skill can you equip it *as a weapon*, letting you do offensive shield skills with it for meaningful damage. \\\\\



** Before the Augma could scan the SAO players' memories of the game, it first had to identify precisely where in their brains those memories were stored. The SAO bosses were a means of accomplishing this, by getting the players to think back to their time in SAO. However many SAO survivors likely didn't even play Ordinal Scale, let alone fight the exclusive SAO bosses. The concert was a way to draw as many SAO survivors as possible into one area (Remember how all kids at the school for SAO survivors got free tickets?) where the Ordinal Scale infrastructure (the drones) could handle putting bosses in front of every one of them. It's possible the need for the lethal power amplifiers was because of this as well - the system couldn't handle scanning that many players at once, so it had to be overclocked? I don't know. Regardless, there was definitely a revenge element at play with Shigemura as well, which explains the darker elements here. He says something along the lines of forcing everyone to experience death at the hands of a boss just like his daughter did. This is the (il)logical explanation for why players fighting during the events would only lose their memory when killed. Otherwise there's really no reason why they needed to lose at all, only fully remember their experiences in SAO. Asuna only did so when killed, but Klein was traumatized enough just when he was forced to stare at the boss, if the light turning on on his Augma was an indication. As further proof of the fact that they didn't need to die ingame for it to work, they outright ''didn't need to'' during the final battle at the stadium. That meter counting up that Shigemura was watching was tracking how much progress the Augma had made in identifying the survivors' relevant memories, which corresponded to how strongly the SAO survivors were recalling their experiences in the trauma of the moment. Once enough people's memories of SAO were identified, the scan would run, collect all of their data, and kill them, regardless of if they died in Ordinal Scale or not.
The real question is why so many clearly traumatized people didn't take their Augmas off in that stadium, why the Augma suddenly forgot what neurons corresponded to the survivors' SAO memories once they calmed down, why Yuna had a ghost in the Augma when personality-reading data (the reason Griselda, Heathcliff, and briefly Kirito, were able to become ghosts in the Cardinal system) was possible when we were specifically told the Augma uses a new Ordinal system, by extension how Kayaba was able to appear in the Augma when it doesn't use the Cardinal system, why Eiji could do weird matrix shit in real life just by having some special AR tech, how Shigemura even accessed the SAO server when it was owned by a rival company, why Kirito and gang needed to fulldive and fight Aincrad's floor 100 boss in the first place (Unless it was legit just to get the OP sword and beat the event using his ingame avatar instead of real body? I don't know.), why Yuna's data was inextricably linked to a random boss enemy in the SAO server,etc., etc., etc., etc...

to:

** Before [[spoiler:Before the Augma could scan the SAO players' memories of the game, it first had to identify precisely where in their brains those memories were stored. The SAO bosses were a means of accomplishing this, by getting the players to think back to their time in SAO. However many SAO survivors likely didn't even play Ordinal Scale, let alone fight the exclusive SAO bosses. The concert was a way to draw as many SAO survivors as possible into one area (Remember how all kids at the school for SAO survivors got free tickets?) where the Ordinal Scale infrastructure (the drones) could handle putting bosses in front of every one of them. It's possible the need for the lethal power amplifiers was because of this as well - the system couldn't handle scanning that many players at once, so it had to be overclocked? I don't know. Regardless, there was definitely a revenge element at play with Shigemura as well, which explains the darker elements here. He says something along the lines of forcing everyone to experience death at the hands of a boss just like his daughter did. This is the (il)logical explanation for why players fighting during the events would only lose their memory when killed. Otherwise there's really no reason why they needed to lose at all, only fully remember their experiences in SAO. Asuna only did so when killed, but Klein was traumatized enough just when he was forced to stare at the boss, if the light turning on on his Augma was an indication. As further proof of the fact that they didn't need to die ingame for it to work, they outright ''didn't need to'' during the final battle at the stadium. That meter counting up that Shigemura was watching was tracking how much progress the Augma had made in identifying the survivors' relevant memories, which corresponded to how strongly the SAO survivors were recalling their experiences in the trauma of the moment. Once enough people's memories of SAO were identified, the scan would run, collect all of their data, and kill them, regardless of if they died in Ordinal Scale or not.
not.\\\
The real question is why so many clearly traumatized people didn't take their Augmas off in that stadium, why the Augma suddenly forgot what neurons corresponded to the survivors' SAO memories once they calmed down, why Yuna had a ghost in the Augma when personality-reading data (the reason Griselda, Heathcliff, and briefly Kirito, were able to become ghosts in the Cardinal system) was possible when we were specifically told the Augma uses a new Ordinal system, by extension how Kayaba was able to appear in the Augma when it doesn't use the Cardinal system, why Eiji could do weird matrix shit in real life just by having some special AR tech, how Shigemura even accessed the SAO server when it was owned by a rival company, why Kirito and gang needed to fulldive and fight Aincrad's floor 100 boss in the first place (Unless it was legit just to get the OP sword and beat the event using his ingame avatar instead of real body? I don't know.), why Yuna's data was inextricably linked to a random boss enemy in the SAO server,etc., etc., etc., etc...]]
28th Oct '17 6:07:43 PM 44no44
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to:

** To unify what's already said: anyone can hold two weapons in SAO - they just can't fight effectively with them. The light novels, which give a lot more information on the actual mechanics of the game, it's explained that how much damage a weapon deals depends on how it is equipped and what "sword skills" you are using with it. The anime somehow completely fails to explain sword skills, but basically, just swinging a weapon at an enemy does barely anything. Instead, you have to use specific attacks (sword skills), which are preset movements that your body will automatically go through once you initiate them by posing in a specific position. Any time you see someone do an attack and it glows, that's because it's a sword skill. Sword skills can't be interrupted when started, so SAO players use the "switch" system of leapfrogging eachother with attacks, so as to cover eachother during their moves' laggy ending frames. But, they're way faster than players can move otherwise [[spoiler:which is why Yuuki is such a big deal in ALO, which adds a feature to record your own movements to make original sword skills - she creates sword skills that are way faster than any normal player can move]]), and are the only way to deal real damage. The beginning scene where Klein gets messed up by a generic boar was an introduction to this in the novel. He can barely hurt it, because he's just swinging his sword instead of equipping it through the right menu and using its sword skills. Players with extremely high stats can actually fight with that scratch damage, but it isn't optimal. [[spoiler:Kirito is forced to do this against Kayaba in the final battle, since Kayaba, being a dev, would know all of his sword skills and be able to block them all. The whole reason Kirito loses that duel in the light novel is because he gets overconfident right at the end and triggers a 24-hit dual-wield skill The Eclipse (replaced in the anime with Starburst Stream, the 16-hitter he used against Gleameyes), which Kayaba then perfect-blocks as expected.]] \\
So all of that explanation out of the way: the random dual-axes guy, and anyone else, can definitely just equip one weapon and spawn another one straight from their inventory and hold both. But only the one equipped properly would have access to sword skills or do any meaningful damage. In order to properly equip both at once, and thus be able to use sword skills with both at once, you need Kirito's unique skill. Heathkliff's unique skill (which might not have even been mentioned in the anime?) is the same way - literally anyone can just equip a shield, but only by having his unique skill can you equip it *as a weapon*, letting you do offensive shield skills with it for meaningful damage. \\
ALO, which just uses realistic sword combat, allows dual-wielding 100%. But then, dual-wielding isn't very practical irl anyway, which is probably why we don't see it except from Kirito. It'd just be rare. [[spoiler:When ALO adds in the sword skill system along with Castle Aincrad, the dual-wielding skill/sword skills aren't included. But since you don't need to equip weapons SAO-style in ALO in the first place, you can technically do one-handed sword skills with either. Kirito figures out that if you create a new one-handed sword skill via the recording system, in such a way that the ending position of a skill with one sword is the triggering position of a skill with the other, then the second skill will animation-cancel the first one and they'll chain together without any ending lag. He pseudo-dual-wields in post-Fairy Dance ALO this way.]]
28th Oct '17 5:07:00 PM 44no44
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Added DiffLines:

** Before the Augma could scan the SAO players' memories of the game, it first had to identify precisely where in their brains those memories were stored. The SAO bosses were a means of accomplishing this, by getting the players to think back to their time in SAO. However many SAO survivors likely didn't even play Ordinal Scale, let alone fight the exclusive SAO bosses. The concert was a way to draw as many SAO survivors as possible into one area (Remember how all kids at the school for SAO survivors got free tickets?) where the Ordinal Scale infrastructure (the drones) could handle putting bosses in front of every one of them. It's possible the need for the lethal power amplifiers was because of this as well - the system couldn't handle scanning that many players at once, so it had to be overclocked? I don't know. Regardless, there was definitely a revenge element at play with Shigemura as well, which explains the darker elements here. He says something along the lines of forcing everyone to experience death at the hands of a boss just like his daughter did. This is the (il)logical explanation for why players fighting during the events would only lose their memory when killed. Otherwise there's really no reason why they needed to lose at all, only fully remember their experiences in SAO. Asuna only did so when killed, but Klein was traumatized enough just when he was forced to stare at the boss, if the light turning on on his Augma was an indication. As further proof of the fact that they didn't need to die ingame for it to work, they outright ''didn't need to'' during the final battle at the stadium. That meter counting up that Shigemura was watching was tracking how much progress the Augma had made in identifying the survivors' relevant memories, which corresponded to how strongly the SAO survivors were recalling their experiences in the trauma of the moment. Once enough people's memories of SAO were identified, the scan would run, collect all of their data, and kill them, regardless of if they died in Ordinal Scale or not.
The real question is why so many clearly traumatized people didn't take their Augmas off in that stadium, why the Augma suddenly forgot what neurons corresponded to the survivors' SAO memories once they calmed down, why Yuna had a ghost in the Augma when personality-reading data (the reason Griselda, Heathcliff, and briefly Kirito, were able to become ghosts in the Cardinal system) was possible when we were specifically told the Augma uses a new Ordinal system, by extension how Kayaba was able to appear in the Augma when it doesn't use the Cardinal system, why Eiji could do weird matrix shit in real life just by having some special AR tech, how Shigemura even accessed the SAO server when it was owned by a rival company, why Kirito and gang needed to fulldive and fight Aincrad's floor 100 boss in the first place (Unless it was legit just to get the OP sword and beat the event using his ingame avatar instead of real body? I don't know.), why Yuna's data was inextricably linked to a random boss enemy in the SAO server,etc., etc., etc., etc...
25th Oct '17 8:13:52 AM Kreyser
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** Bureaucratic red tape, he could be let off the hook as long as he passed something else in return.



also abused to dodge being marked as an Outlaw, via Sleep [=PKs=].

to:

also abused ** This has been handled many times. Kayaba made a deal/threat with government that he would be allowed to dodge being marked continue the game because he has about ten thousand people as an Outlaw, via Sleep [=PKs=]."hostage". Government do not interfere, the hostages stays alive (until the game is cleared).
4th Sep '17 2:12:31 PM HalcyonDayz
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** I thought MMOs let you play on any server, and you just use the one for your country because it means everyone on there speaks your language, and there's probably less lag. Also, shouldn't that be 1 credit=.1 cents=$.001?

to:

** I thought MMOs [=MMOs=] let you play on any server, and you just use the one for your country because it means everyone on there speaks your language, and there's probably less lag. Also, shouldn't that be 1 credit=.1 cents=$.001?
4th Sep '17 2:04:12 PM HalcyonDayz
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** But weight as a stat requirement and a basic level requirements are two different things. The only thing barring you from using a sword in many MMORPGs may be just its level requirement(s), but if you strip that, then anybody can use said weapon, regardless of how powerful it is, and there wouldn't be a drawback. Weight is a stat requirement that has CONTEXT, and is in CONTEXT. You literally couldn't use the sword if you couldn't meet the stat requirement, but since it's weight instead of a simple level, and weight actually means something concrete, then it'd be a factor that matters constantly.

to:

** But weight as a stat requirement and a basic level requirements are two different things. The only thing barring you from using a sword in many MMORPGs [=MMORPGs=] may be just its level requirement(s), but if you strip that, then anybody can use said weapon, regardless of how powerful it is, and there wouldn't be a drawback. Weight is a stat requirement that has CONTEXT, and is in CONTEXT. You literally couldn't use the sword if you couldn't meet the stat requirement, but since it's weight instead of a simple level, and weight actually means something concrete, then it'd be a factor that matters constantly.
3rd Sep '17 10:07:04 AM HalcyonDayz
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** A blurry picture of a girl who resembled one of 200 people who are trapped online somewhere, taken in a game that changes your appearance and has many [=NPCs=] to boot. That's almost less than nothing to take to the police.

to:

** A blurry picture of a girl who resembled one of 200 people who are trapped online somewhere, taken in a game that changes your appearance and has many [=NPCs=] {{Non Player Character}}s to boot. That's almost less than nothing to take to the police.



*** There was a dounjinshi released that Reki Kawahara might have had a hand in that focused on that particular boss. The field boss was a giant monster with an armored front stationed in a narrow canyon. The canyon walls were too steep to climb and the monster was too big to maneuver around, so players had no way to access it's weak spot. Asuna's plan involved leading it to a village at the opening of the canyon. (And honestly, no one else could figure out how to beat it without massive casualties.) It wasn't until they triggered an in town event with the NPCs that they found a way to put the boss to sleep so they could climb over it and attack from behind.

to:

*** There was a dounjinshi released that Reki Kawahara might have had a hand in that focused on that particular boss. The field boss was a giant monster with an armored front stationed in a narrow canyon. The canyon walls were too steep to climb and the monster was too big to maneuver around, so players had no way to access it's weak spot. Asuna's plan involved leading it to a village at the opening of the canyon. (And honestly, no one else could figure out how to beat it without massive casualties.) It wasn't until they triggered an in town event with the NPCs {{Non Player Character}}s that they found a way to put the boss to sleep so they could climb over it and attack from behind.
1st Sep '17 9:50:27 PM HalcyonDayz
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** GGO has a pro scene. In fact it seems the pro-scene is more front-center than the casual scene. Both hardware and software company pay large sums for tournaments of e-sports IRL like SC2, LoL, CoD, so it's not at all weird. The International 2014 had a starting prize pool of 1.6m USD (the final ended up close to 11m USD). In fact 200k to 300k Yen a month, which is 2k to 3k USD, would be incredibly low for top gamers of popular games to be making IRL. SAO happened due to the vulnerability of [=NerveGear=]. ALO's incident caused no fatalities and importantly also only effected people using [=NerveGear=]. The situation given is that: a) Both dead players are Japanese. The jurisdiction would fall under the Japanese government. Meanwhile the gaming company is American. Without more concrete proof, the government is going to protect its citizens' privacy and protect the coperations (and individuals) from libel first, which leads to b) Amusphere is supposed to be 100% save. It doesn't have the power to damage the user's body. Both the Japanese government agent and Kirito admit the chance of it being an actual murder is 1% and are only looking into the case because of "a bad feeling". Saying the US government, or any government, would work on this case in its current form would make as much sense as saying they'd investigate a case of someone accusing you of blowing up a building in India with a hack (not a bomb or that you're part of an organization) but can not identify the program. Or taking to the police as evidence of kidnapping a blurry screenshot of someone that looks like a missing person in an MMORPG with customizable avatars, tens of thousands of players, and countless [=NPCs=]. It'd get laughed out.

to:

** GGO has a pro scene. In fact it seems the pro-scene is more front-center than the casual scene. Both hardware and software company pay large sums for tournaments of e-sports IRL like SC2, LoL, ''VideoGame/LeagueOfLegends'', CoD, so it's not at all weird. The International 2014 had a starting prize pool of 1.6m USD (the final ended up close to 11m USD). In fact 200k to 300k Yen a month, which is 2k to 3k USD, would be incredibly low for top gamers of popular games to be making IRL. SAO happened due to the vulnerability of [=NerveGear=]. ALO's incident caused no fatalities and importantly also only effected people using [=NerveGear=]. The situation given is that: a) Both dead players are Japanese. The jurisdiction would fall under the Japanese government. Meanwhile the gaming company is American. Without more concrete proof, the government is going to protect its citizens' privacy and protect the coperations (and individuals) from libel first, which leads to b) Amusphere is supposed to be 100% save. It doesn't have the power to damage the user's body. Both the Japanese government agent and Kirito admit the chance of it being an actual murder is 1% and are only looking into the case because of "a bad feeling". Saying the US government, or any government, would work on this case in its current form would make as much sense as saying they'd investigate a case of someone accusing you of blowing up a building in India with a hack (not a bomb or that you're part of an organization) but can not identify the program. Or taking to the police as evidence of kidnapping a blurry screenshot of someone that looks like a missing person in an MMORPG with customizable avatars, tens of thousands of players, and countless [=NPCs=]. It'd get laughed out.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.SwordArtOnline