History Headscratchers / SwordArtOnline

13th Jun '17 4:59:50 PM RoarkTenjouin
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** Problem with that excuse is that they never showed anyone dying as a result of that - the only deaths they showed en masse were players committing suicide. It's established in story that once you die, you basically dissolve.
23rd May '17 1:07:10 AM elkeryos
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** There is the main problem. First, Kayaba isn't "an adult"; or rather, in this context, being "an adult" isn't something that can be decided with the person's age alone. If the person just cannot learn how "an adult" should be because of a variety of hard-wired reasons, then he will ultimately end up as an adult body with a child-like mind. Ultimately, his mind is still at the level of children okay with hurting pets (or more commonly, insects) just because they don't have empathy towards them yet and "it seems funny". Psychologically speaking, he's stuck at the level of a very young child at best.
Which leads to what follows; it isn't "common sense" in any way if we aren't talking about "typical" people. Not to mention that morality is subjective to begin with; and with a real sociapath it's even worse, or rather, "more obvious". "Common sense" definitely doesn't apply, and "free will" is a thing that depends of everyone's own experience and, ultimately, of how someone is, down to his/her brain chemistry, so there's no easy way out of this one. It all depends of how willing you are to try to understand why things went as they went, and obviously trying to get Kayaba punished for his crime, seeking out a therapist or whatever is pointless, since he is, well, dead. So while being angry about it would be justified, it would also be useless, not to mention that at this PARTICULAR moment, Kirito certainly had other things on his mind than some philosophical nonsense about guilt and forgiveness. We are purely talking about an emotional problem, not one related to law in any way, since the culprit being dead makes the "anger" of him not being punished for his crimes moot to begin with. If Kayaba was still alive and kicking, Kirito's tune certainly would have been VERY different.
Sociopaths are he accountable for their crimes, and they usually also go into SPECIAL STRUCTURES, because their needs and their histories are very different from a typical person's one.
You're also missing the whole point about this, both from a meta-PoV and an inside-the-game PoV; as I said, understanding and forgiving are two very, very different things and one doesn't necessarily imply the other. Nothing indicates that Kirito is forgiving Kayaba in any way; he did the best he could from this whole mess, and tried to see the reason behind the whole deal, but there is a world between t his and forgiving. It's just a need to rationalize what happened.
The only thing it means is that one was more UNDERSTANDABLE than the other, and therefore it is often easier to accept, especially when someone 1à times worse is trying to rape your girlfriend in front of you at the very same moment.
Kirito makes the rational thing in this scene; being pragmatic. Not to mention that lashing out at Kayaba at this moment would be purely an emotional thing; the guy is dead, literally. There was nothing to gain in getting angry at him; only something to lose because without its help, Asuna isn't the only one who would be in danger in the end.
And yes, "moral relativism" is the key here. Again, you don't judge as kid as you would judge an adult. And understanding isn't the same as forgiving, once again. People are trying to justify it because it's what makes him stand out compared to the usual "hollywood sociopath" and Sugou, and make him not feel like a simple repeat of it. And from a character's PoV, it's also understandable; the event is over, the culprit is dead. Understanding how and why it happened in order to deal with it is way more logical (even if, once again, it only really looks "detached" outlook-wise because of how much of an ass that doesn't even respect his own rules despite being functional Sugou is). If you don't care about it, it's your own problem, but a lot of people care about the reasoning behind actions just as much as the actions themselves; and in this case, there is a huge gap between "greed" and "ignorance/having a psychological problem to begin with". It just happens that one is a conscious choice while the other isn't.




to:

** There is the main problem. First, Kayaba isn't "an adult"; or rather, in this context, being "an adult" isn't something that can be decided with the person's age alone. If the person just cannot learn how "an adult" should be because of a variety of hard-wired reasons, then he will ultimately end up as an adult body with a child-like mind. Ultimately, his mind is still at the level of children okay with hurting pets (or more commonly, insects) just because they don't have empathy towards them yet and "it seems funny". Psychologically speaking, he's stuck at the level of a very young child at best. Which leads to what follows; it isn't "common sense" in any way if we aren't talking about "typical" people. Not to mention that morality is subjective to begin with; and with a real sociapath it's even worse, or rather, "more obvious". "Common sense" definitely doesn't apply, and "free will" is a thing that depends of everyone's own experience and, ultimately, of how someone is, down to his/her brain chemistry, so there's no easy way out of this one. It all depends of how willing you are to try to understand why things went as they went, and obviously trying to get Kayaba punished for his crime, seeking out a therapist or whatever is pointless, since he is, well, dead. So while being angry about it would be justified, it would also be useless, not to mention that at this PARTICULAR moment, Kirito certainly had other things on his mind than some philosophical nonsense about guilt and forgiveness. We are purely talking about an emotional problem, not one related to law in any way, since the culprit being dead makes the "anger" of him not being punished for his crimes moot to begin with. If Kayaba was still alive and kicking, Kirito's tune certainly would have been VERY different. Sociopaths are he accountable for their crimes, and they usually also go into SPECIAL STRUCTURES, because their needs and their histories are very different from a typical person's one. You're also missing the whole point about this, both from a meta-PoV and an inside-the-game PoV; as I said, understanding and forgiving are two very, very different things and one doesn't necessarily imply the other. Nothing indicates that Kirito is forgiving Kayaba in any way; he did the best he could from this whole mess, and tried to see the reason behind the whole deal, but there is a world between t his and forgiving. It's just a need to rationalize what happened. The only thing it means is that one was more UNDERSTANDABLE than the other, and therefore it is often easier to accept, especially when someone 1à times worse is trying to rape your girlfriend in front of you at the very same moment. Kirito makes the rational thing in this scene; being pragmatic. Not to mention that lashing out at Kayaba at this moment would be purely an emotional thing; the guy is dead, literally. There was nothing to gain in getting angry at him; only something to lose because without its help, Asuna isn't the only one who would be in danger in the end. And yes, "moral relativism" is the key here. Again, you don't judge as kid as you would judge an adult. And understanding isn't the same as forgiving, once again. People are trying to justify it because it's what makes him stand out compared to the usual "hollywood sociopath" and Sugou, and make him not feel like a simple repeat of it. And from a character's PoV, it's also understandable; the event is over, the culprit is dead. Understanding how and why it happened in order to deal with it is way more logical (even if, once again, it only really looks "detached" outlook-wise because of how much of an ass that doesn't even respect his own rules despite being functional Sugou is). If you don't care about it, it's your own problem, but a lot of people care about the reasoning behind actions just as much as the actions themselves; and in this case, there is a huge gap between "greed" and "ignorance/having a psychological problem to begin with". It just happens that one is a conscious choice while the other isn't.
23rd May '17 1:01:32 AM elkeryos
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

**There is the main problem. First, Kayaba isn't "an adult"; or rather, in this context, being "an adult" isn't something that can be decided with the person's age alone. If the person just cannot learn how "an adult" should be because of a variety of hard-wired reasons, then he will ultimately end up as an adult body with a child-like mind. Ultimately, his mind is still at the level of children okay with hurting pets (or more commonly, insects) just because they don't have empathy towards them yet and "it seems funny". Psychologically speaking, he's stuck at the level of a very young child at best.
Which leads to what follows; it isn't "common sense" in any way if we aren't talking about "typical" people. Not to mention that morality is subjective to begin with; and with a real sociapath it's even worse, or rather, "more obvious". "Common sense" definitely doesn't apply, and "free will" is a thing that depends of everyone's own experience and, ultimately, of how someone is, down to his/her brain chemistry, so there's no easy way out of this one. It all depends of how willing you are to try to understand why things went as they went, and obviously trying to get Kayaba punished for his crime, seeking out a therapist or whatever is pointless, since he is, well, dead. So while being angry about it would be justified, it would also be useless, not to mention that at this PARTICULAR moment, Kirito certainly had other things on his mind than some philosophical nonsense about guilt and forgiveness. We are purely talking about an emotional problem, not one related to law in any way, since the culprit being dead makes the "anger" of him not being punished for his crimes moot to begin with. If Kayaba was still alive and kicking, Kirito's tune certainly would have been VERY different.
Sociopaths are he accountable for their crimes, and they usually also go into SPECIAL STRUCTURES, because their needs and their histories are very different from a typical person's one.
You're also missing the whole point about this, both from a meta-PoV and an inside-the-game PoV; as I said, understanding and forgiving are two very, very different things and one doesn't necessarily imply the other. Nothing indicates that Kirito is forgiving Kayaba in any way; he did the best he could from this whole mess, and tried to see the reason behind the whole deal, but there is a world between t his and forgiving. It's just a need to rationalize what happened.
The only thing it means is that one was more UNDERSTANDABLE than the other, and therefore it is often easier to accept, especially when someone 1à times worse is trying to rape your girlfriend in front of you at the very same moment.
Kirito makes the rational thing in this scene; being pragmatic. Not to mention that lashing out at Kayaba at this moment would be purely an emotional thing; the guy is dead, literally. There was nothing to gain in getting angry at him; only something to lose because without its help, Asuna isn't the only one who would be in danger in the end.
And yes, "moral relativism" is the key here. Again, you don't judge as kid as you would judge an adult. And understanding isn't the same as forgiving, once again. People are trying to justify it because it's what makes him stand out compared to the usual "hollywood sociopath" and Sugou, and make him not feel like a simple repeat of it. And from a character's PoV, it's also understandable; the event is over, the culprit is dead. Understanding how and why it happened in order to deal with it is way more logical (even if, once again, it only really looks "detached" outlook-wise because of how much of an ass that doesn't even respect his own rules despite being functional Sugou is). If you don't care about it, it's your own problem, but a lot of people care about the reasoning behind actions just as much as the actions themselves; and in this case, there is a huge gap between "greed" and "ignorance/having a psychological problem to begin with". It just happens that one is a conscious choice while the other isn't.
30th Apr '17 4:02:10 PM SCP682WILLDIE
Is there an issue? Send a Message


[[folder: Why didn't anyone call a expert to alter the circuits on the NevrveGear so the battery can't power the microwave transmitter, thus stopping people's brains from being fried?
* Ex-actly what i wrote in the folder title. Nobody, absolutely nobody realized that given enough time, expertise and care, a engineer could alter the circuits and stop the NerveGear battery from activating the transmitter? Seriously? And i'm not just talking about the combined numbers of low hundreds of thousands of parents, grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins...(if we count friends that number could be on the high hundreds of thousands. Heck, counting acquinttaces it could be about a million even. Counting the people who didn't know the victims but were worried and were trying to figure out a way to help them...it's a god damn ninety percent of Japan.)i'm also talking about the fucking Japanese government, which is highly competent, at least IRL. Also, where's the japanese government's supercomputers working to stop the NerveGear's signals? Where are the presumably millions of technofreaks thinking up ways to disable the NerveGear? Where's the own engineers offering their help? Where's the company who created the NerveGear trying to help instead of just shutting down like they did on the actual anime? WHERE's ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN?

to:

[[folder: Why didn't anyone call a expert to alter the circuits on the NevrveGear NerveGear so the battery can't power the microwave transmitter, thus stopping people's brains from being fried?
fried?]]
* Ex-actly what i wrote in the folder title. Nobody, absolutely nobody realized that given enough time, expertise and care, a engineer could alter the circuits and stop the NerveGear battery from activating the transmitter? Seriously? And i'm not just talking about the combined numbers of low hundreds of thousands of parents, grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins...(if we count friends that number could be on the high hundreds of thousands. Heck, counting acquinttaces it could be about a million even. Counting the people who didn't know the victims but were worried and were trying to figure out a way to help them...it's a god damn ninety percent of Japan.)i'm also talking about the fucking Japanese government, which is highly competent, at least IRL. Also, where's the japanese government's supercomputers working to stop the NerveGear's signals? Where are the presumably millions of technofreaks thinking up ways to disable the NerveGear? Where's the own engineers offering their help? Where's the company who created the NerveGear trying to help instead of just shutting down like they did on the actual anime? WHERE's ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN?BRAIN?
also abused to dodge being marked as an Outlaw, via Sleep [=PKs=].
[[/folder]]
30th Apr '17 4:00:18 PM SCP682WILLDIE
Is there an issue? Send a Message


[[/folder]]

to:

[[/folder]][[/folder]]

[[folder: Why didn't anyone call a expert to alter the circuits on the NevrveGear so the battery can't power the microwave transmitter, thus stopping people's brains from being fried?
* Ex-actly what i wrote in the folder title. Nobody, absolutely nobody realized that given enough time, expertise and care, a engineer could alter the circuits and stop the NerveGear battery from activating the transmitter? Seriously? And i'm not just talking about the combined numbers of low hundreds of thousands of parents, grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins...(if we count friends that number could be on the high hundreds of thousands. Heck, counting acquinttaces it could be about a million even. Counting the people who didn't know the victims but were worried and were trying to figure out a way to help them...it's a god damn ninety percent of Japan.)i'm also talking about the fucking Japanese government, which is highly competent, at least IRL. Also, where's the japanese government's supercomputers working to stop the NerveGear's signals? Where are the presumably millions of technofreaks thinking up ways to disable the NerveGear? Where's the own engineers offering their help? Where's the company who created the NerveGear trying to help instead of just shutting down like they did on the actual anime? WHERE's ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN?
26th Apr '17 9:58:57 AM bigbossdiego
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

*** It's certainly not framed as StockholmSyndrome. And I would think that regardless of how well Kirito got to know him, he shouldn't just let Kayaba off the hook for effectively ruining/ending the lives of thousands of people. Even if Kayaba is more relatable to Kirito than Sugou, again, that's just moral relativism. Saying that someone isn't as bad as Hitler or Stalin doesn't excuse the bad shit they did. Laughing Coffin getting off the hook is a non-sequitur, because that's the government's fault more than anything else. And hell, even if Kirito and Asuna knew Kayaba well enough as Heathcliff, why should that respect carry over after he betrays them? Have you ever seen any other piece of media where someone was like, "Yeah that guy was a traitor and is totally responsible for the suffering of thousands, but when he was on our side, he was a pretty cool guy," without '''any''' acknowledgement of how much of a dick the traitor was beforehand? The moment Kirito and Asuna leave ''SAO'', Kayaba loses any accountability for his actions in their eyes, and that makes no sense. And to top it all off, I think there is a strong argument that Kayaba was hurting others for his sick amusement at the '''very best'''. I mean, the guy forgot what he was doing the whole thing for anyway, so how am I supposed to sympathize with him?
4th Apr '17 10:53:46 AM SwordsageRagnar
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** StockholmSyndrome effect in action, plus a few few notes of sympathy from Kirito/Asuna. To everyone outside the game, oh yea, Kayaba was public enemy #1 and justifiably so. However, Asuna and Kirito got to know him (or at least, another side of him) in game. Compare and contrast, how the Player Killer players and guilds were treated compared to Kayaba by government officials. The worst of the worst, Laughing Coffin, got off basically scot-free, despite according to SAO survivors being responsible for ''hundreds'' of murders in-game (to the point that the clearers put a temporary pause on climbing Aincrad, to launch an assault against Laughing Coffin). Asuna knew Kayaba as the reasonable commander and hero of the Clearing players, Heathcliff, while Kirito knows him as a fellow gamer who much like Kirito before the SAO incident, preferred living in a virtual world rather than the real world, and sees him to a point as a horribly misguided visionary who wanted people to live in his world. Sure, Kayaba is a criminal bastard ultimately responsible for the deaths of SAO players, but from at least Kirito's point of view, Kayaba was a sympathetic villain and at least had faith in the players to beat his challenge. The other villains Kirito had to deal with have nothing in common with him, and all just wanted power, no matter who or how they hurt others.

to:

** StockholmSyndrome effect in action, plus a few few notes of sympathy from Kirito/Asuna. To everyone outside the game, oh yea, Kayaba was public enemy #1 and justifiably so. However, Asuna and Kirito got to know him (or at least, another side of him) in game. Compare and contrast, how the Player Killer players and guilds were treated compared to Kayaba by government officials. The worst of the worst, Laughing Coffin, got off basically scot-free, despite according to SAO survivors being responsible for ''hundreds'' of murders in-game (to the point that the clearers put a temporary pause on climbing Aincrad, to launch an assault against Laughing Coffin). Asuna knew Kayaba as the reasonable commander and hero of the Clearing players, Heathcliff, while Kirito knows him as a fellow gamer who much like Kirito before the SAO incident, preferred living in a virtual world rather than the real world, and sees him to a point as a horribly misguided visionary who wanted people to live in his world. Sure, Kayaba is a criminal bastard ultimately responsible for the deaths of SAO players, but from at least Kirito's point of view, Kayaba was a sympathetic villain and at least had faith in the players to beat his challenge. The other villains Kirito had to deal with have nothing in common with him, and all just wanted power, no matter who or how they hurt others.others for their sick amusement.
4th Apr '17 10:51:11 AM SwordsageRagnar
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** StockholmSyndrome effect in action, plus a few few notes of sympathy from Kirito/Asuna. To everyone outside the game, oh yea, Kayaba was public enemy #1 and justifiably so. However, Asuna and Kirito got to know him (or at least, another side of him) in game. Compare and contrast, how the Player Killer players and guilds were treated compared to Kayaba by government officials. The worst of the worst, Laughing Coffin, got off basically scot-free, despite according to SAO survivors being responsible for ''hundreds'' of murders in-game (to the point that the clearers put a temporary pause on climbing Aincrad, to launch an assault against Laughing Coffin). Asuna knew Kayaba as the reasonable commander and hero of the Clearing players, Heathcliff, while Kirito knows him as a fellow gamer who much like Kirito before the SAO incident, preferred living in a virtual world rather than the real world, and sees him to a point as a horribly misguided visionary who wanted people to live in his world. Sure, Kayaba is a criminal bastard ultimately responsible for the deaths of SAO players, but from at least Kirito's point of view, Kayaba was a sympathetic villain and at least had faith in the players to beat his challenge. The other villains Kirito had to deal with have nothing in common with him, and all just wanted power, no matter who or how they hurt others.
4th Apr '17 7:20:41 AM bigbossdiego
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

* Okay, no. The problem here is that Kayaba '''is''' an adult. The fact of the matter is that regardless of whether or not he believed it was wrong, he still trapped people in a situation in which it was incredibly likely that they would die. Sociopaths are held accountable for their crimes all the time. If they weren't then society would be overrun with people allowed to commit crimes just because they don't understand why they're wrong. And even if we're talking from a meta-textual standpoint, he's still unsympathetic because of how inhuman he is. On the subject of him not being accountable for the deaths in game, since they weren't directly his fault, I'd like to call bullcrap. He had to have known that families of the victims would try to forcibly remove the helmets, because that's just common sense. Within the game itself, he's still got blood on his hands. If you went to a circus and the ringmaster told you that you could only leave if you killed his lion with a knife, do you think the ringmaster would be arrested and tried for reckless endangerment regardless of whether or not you lived? Trick question, of course he would. Saying that he's not that bad compared to Sugou is a masterclass in moral relativism, and the fact that people are actually trying to justify what Kayaba did baffles me. As do the attempts to justify Kirito letting him off the hook. Even if Kirito did save everyone, the idea that he doesn't have anything more than utter contempt for Kayaba because he got his girlfriend in SAO is just an emotionally selfish thing. It is totally possible to appreciate good things that happen in light of tragedy, but that doesn't mean that tragedy is overlooked.
28th Mar '17 10:17:53 AM spoonofevil
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Why isn't Eiji ever arrested for physical assault?]]
* In ''Ordinal Scale'', Eiji is seen roaming the city physically assaulting other players, going so far as to breaking limbs which requires months of hospitalization. Now, this would be perfectly fine if this were in a virtual world, but Eiji is literally physically assaulting other people in the real world, who are using advanced personal Augma systems that basically record everything they see and instantly access the personal information of the people around them. How did Eiji manage to not only escape arrest, but any sort of police suspicion whatsoever?
[[/folder]]

[[folder:The presence of SAO bosses in Ordinal Scale.]]
* Ordinal Scale uses literal copies of old SAO bosses as enemies. However, the company that developed the Augma is different from the one that actually owns the rights to all SAO IP and copyrights, which also happens to own a competing game (Alfheim Online) on a competing format ([=NervGears=]). How was it possible that OS was able to obtain the rights to assets owned by one of their direct competitors, and if the assets were stolen, how come the company that owned ALO didn't do anything about it? In Japan, one of the countries that most strictly enforces copyright laws?
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Why couldn't Shigemura just have stolen everybody's memories right off the bat?]]
* The Augma system Shigemura developed relies on a network of drones hovering around the city to relay data, and it's explained that it's these drones that are remotely scanning former SAO players' brains through their Augmas. Theoretically, this means that Shigemura could have literally just taken all of the SAO players' memories at any time that he wanted. Why jump through unnecessary hoops like conditioning the scan to only happen if a player is defeated by a boss, or organize an '''extremely obvious''' trap by luring all of the SAO players to a stadium to be scanned at once, '''which would result in him killing all of them in the process'''?
[[/folder]]

[[folder:How the hell did Shigemura escape government oversight when developing Augma?]]
* Considering that Augma has the potential to '''kill''' players in the exact same way the original [=NervGears=] did, how the hell did that design feature slip past government safety inspections? Especially after the safety craze in response to the SAO crisis that resulted in the development of next generation [=NervGears=] with specific safeguards installed? Maybe if it was a completely private venture it would be possible, but it's stated that the government subsidized the development of Augma. How could the government, still reeling from the SAO crisis, have let such a critical safety oversight go by under their watch?
This list shows the last 10 events of 584. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.SwordArtOnline