History Headscratchers / Se7en

29th Apr '16 12:45:28 AM XDiakos
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*** John Doe envied what Mills had (e.g. wife, "children", a "normal" life)
*** The question being, if he secretly wanted to be wrath (which would make sense considering his actions), then envy is still missing since he had only one sin per person up til this point.

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*** John Doe envied what Mills had (e.g. wife, "children", a "normal" life)
life).
*** The question being, if he secretly wanted to be wrath (which would make sense considering his actions), then envy is still missing since he had only one sin per person up til this point.
point. One could argue, on the other hand, if Doe is the Wrath victim, that Tracy is therefore the Envy victim.
20th Apr '16 9:04:21 PM Luppercus
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** I thought a drug-dealer was perfect as example of sloth, as selling drugs is not a real job and requires very little effort at exchange of a lot of money. Though be a child molester will be more connected to Lust.

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** I thought a drug-dealer was perfect as example of sloth, as selling drugs is not a real job and requires very little effort at in exchange of for a lot of money. Though be a child molester will be more connected to Lust.
20th Apr '16 9:03:37 PM Luppercus
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Added DiffLines:

**I thought a drug-dealer was perfect as example of sloth, as selling drugs is not a real job and requires very little effort at exchange of a lot of money. Though be a child molester will be more connected to Lust.
18th Apr '16 7:13:36 PM CockroachCharlie
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to:

*** The question being, if he secretly wanted to be wrath (which would make sense considering his actions), then envy is still missing since he had only one sin per person up til this point.
21st Feb '16 4:46:37 AM Evighet
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Frankly, John Doe should have been pride. Go back to Milton, the belief that one who is not god has the ability to make judgements in his name is the ultimate example of Pride, which is suppose to be the greatest of the sins. After all, Satan himself is associated with it. John never shows any hint of envy, in fact other than pride and disgust, he shows very little emotion. Envy should have been Sommerset, who clearly is somewhat jealous of MIl's loving relationship.

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\n** [[spoiler:Tracy]] is killed because [[spoiler:she]] is the ''wrath'' victim. Back in Dante's day [[spoiler:if a man was sentenced to death he could be allowed to live if his wife and children were killed in his place - thus taking away his reason/will to live. Doe kills Tracy (and the unborn baby but that was a fluke on his part) in place of David, making David the one guilty of wrath and the loss of Tracy and the child his punishment.]]

*
Frankly, John Doe should have been pride. Go back to Milton, the belief that one who is not god has the ability to make judgements in his name is the ultimate example of Pride, which is suppose to be the greatest of the sins. After all, Satan himself is associated with it. John never shows any hint of envy, in fact other than pride and disgust, he shows very little emotion. Envy should have been Sommerset, who clearly is somewhat jealous of MIl's loving relationship.
6th Sep '15 1:49:19 PM EvilElitest
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*** He said he went after sinners he never said that he '''only''' went after sinners He didn't go after people like the sellers or the clients because he was simply trying to make an example of the Gluttony and Greed victims, not eradicate all bad people. But that doesn't mean he won't kill innocent people to make his point either- the Lust victim arguably wasn't the prostitute, for instance, but the client who hired her, plus he threatened to kill said client AND he shot at Somerset and Mills, and will kill anyone who gets in his way. Besides, he specifically says that he himself is guilty of Envy and needs to be punished for it (in order to turn Mills into Wrath), so he murdered an innocent person for the sake of murdering an innocent person- because it's pretty obvious that he doesn't think murdering "guilty" people is sufficient to make him a sinner. Besides, he wasn't REALLY guilty of Envy- he'd just decided that the ''coup de gras'' of his EvilPlan will be to make Mills into Wrath, and since he has one sin left, the most straightforward way of achieving that is just to pretend that he is Envious of Mills and thats why he killed her- when really, he just needed a flimsy excuse to involve her (and thus Mills) in his twisted story.

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*** He said he went after sinners he never said that he '''only''' went after sinners He didn't go after people like the sellers or the clients because he was simply trying to make an example of the Gluttony and Greed victims, not eradicate all bad people. But that doesn't mean he won't kill innocent people to make his point either- the Lust victim arguably wasn't the prostitute, for instance, but the client who hired her, plus he threatened to kill said client AND he shot at Somerset and Mills, and will kill anyone who gets in his way. Besides, he specifically says that he himself is guilty of Envy and needs to be punished for it (in order to turn Mills into Wrath), so he murdered an innocent person for the sake of murdering an innocent person- because it's pretty obvious that he doesn't think murdering "guilty" people is sufficient to make him a sinner. Besides, he wasn't REALLY guilty of Envy- he'd just decided that the ''coup de gras'' of his EvilPlan will be to make Mills into Wrath, and since he has one sin left, the most straightforward way of achieving that is just to pretend that he is Envious of Mills and thats why he killed her- when really, he just needed a flimsy excuse to involve her (and thus Mills) in his twisted story.story.

Frankly, John Doe should have been pride. Go back to Milton, the belief that one who is not god has the ability to make judgements in his name is the ultimate example of Pride, which is suppose to be the greatest of the sins. After all, Satan himself is associated with it. John never shows any hint of envy, in fact other than pride and disgust, he shows very little emotion. Envy should have been Sommerset, who clearly is somewhat jealous of MIl's loving relationship.
9th Jul '15 3:21:30 PM Dragon101
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** Thank you for this answer! But I don't think I worded my question clearly enough. If Doe did think that [[spoiler: Tracy]] was innocent, why did he kill her? In his speech in the car, he makes it clear that he only went after people who had actually ''committed'' deadly sins, not ''inspired'' them--he didn't, for instance, attack the people who sold the Gluttony victim food, or the Greed victim's clients. Doe's clearly a misanthrope who hates the world, but he doesn't really seem to have a KillEmAll mentality, either, nor does he seem like an AxCrazy psychopath (his murders were all carefully planned and justified in his own head). So I still can't figure out how [[spoiler: Tracy's]] murder fits into his plan.

to:

** Thank you for this answer! But I don't think I worded my question clearly enough. If Doe did think that [[spoiler: Tracy]] was innocent, why did he kill her? In his speech in the car, he makes it clear that he only went after people who had actually ''committed'' deadly sins, not ''inspired'' them--he didn't, for instance, attack the people who sold the Gluttony victim food, or the Greed victim's clients. Doe's clearly a misanthrope who hates the world, but he doesn't really seem to have a KillEmAll mentality, either, nor does he seem like an AxCrazy psychopath (his murders were all carefully planned and justified in his own head). So I still can't figure out how [[spoiler: Tracy's]] murder fits into his plan.plan.
*** He said he went after sinners he never said that he '''only''' went after sinners He didn't go after people like the sellers or the clients because he was simply trying to make an example of the Gluttony and Greed victims, not eradicate all bad people. But that doesn't mean he won't kill innocent people to make his point either- the Lust victim arguably wasn't the prostitute, for instance, but the client who hired her, plus he threatened to kill said client AND he shot at Somerset and Mills, and will kill anyone who gets in his way. Besides, he specifically says that he himself is guilty of Envy and needs to be punished for it (in order to turn Mills into Wrath), so he murdered an innocent person for the sake of murdering an innocent person- because it's pretty obvious that he doesn't think murdering "guilty" people is sufficient to make him a sinner. Besides, he wasn't REALLY guilty of Envy- he'd just decided that the ''coup de gras'' of his EvilPlan will be to make Mills into Wrath, and since he has one sin left, the most straightforward way of achieving that is just to pretend that he is Envious of Mills and thats why he killed her- when really, he just needed a flimsy excuse to involve her (and thus Mills) in his twisted story.
8th Jun '15 10:57:49 PM Gravidef
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** Doe didn't believe that she was guilty of anything. She was innocent. She was an innocent victim of his Envy.

to:

** Doe didn't believe that she was guilty of anything. She was innocent. She was an innocent victim of his Envy.Envy.
** Thank you for this answer! But I don't think I worded my question clearly enough. If Doe did think that [[spoiler: Tracy]] was innocent, why did he kill her? In his speech in the car, he makes it clear that he only went after people who had actually ''committed'' deadly sins, not ''inspired'' them--he didn't, for instance, attack the people who sold the Gluttony victim food, or the Greed victim's clients. Doe's clearly a misanthrope who hates the world, but he doesn't really seem to have a KillEmAll mentality, either, nor does he seem like an AxCrazy psychopath (his murders were all carefully planned and justified in his own head). So I still can't figure out how [[spoiler: Tracy's]] murder fits into his plan.
27th Apr '15 11:21:42 AM Lawyerdude
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* There's one thing I've never understood about Doe's motivation for [[spoiler: killing Tracy]]. His MotiveRant reveals that he only killed people who were, in his mind, guilty of committing a deadly sin. Doe even goes so far as to attack Somerset and Mills for calling his victims "innocent," suggesting that he only wanted to kill people who had actually done something wrong. So how does he justify [[spoiler: killing a young woman who's totally blameless?]] It's suggested that he did it because [[spoiler: she]] made him feel envious, but that's not [[spoiler: her]] fault; it seems analogous to killing a rich man because you want what he has. What's Doe's reasoning behind this particular murder?

to:

* There's one thing I've never understood about Doe's motivation for [[spoiler: killing Tracy]]. His MotiveRant reveals that he only killed people who were, in his mind, guilty of committing a deadly sin. Doe even goes so far as to attack Somerset and Mills for calling his victims "innocent," suggesting that he only wanted to kill people who had actually done something wrong. So how does he justify [[spoiler: killing a young woman who's totally blameless?]] It's suggested that he did it because [[spoiler: she]] made him feel envious, but that's not [[spoiler: her]] fault; it seems analogous to killing a rich man because you want what he has. What's Doe's reasoning behind this particular murder?murder?
** Doe didn't believe that she was guilty of anything. She was innocent. She was an innocent victim of his Envy.
13th Mar '15 11:47:58 PM Gravidef
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** So, in a way. Doe tried to purify his victims AND himself, trying to save them from their sins. This fits in with his belief of him doing God's work.

to:

** So, in a way. Doe tried to purify his victims AND himself, trying to save them from their sins. This fits in with his belief of him doing God's work.work.
* There's one thing I've never understood about Doe's motivation for [[spoiler: killing Tracy]]. His MotiveRant reveals that he only killed people who were, in his mind, guilty of committing a deadly sin. Doe even goes so far as to attack Somerset and Mills for calling his victims "innocent," suggesting that he only wanted to kill people who had actually done something wrong. So how does he justify [[spoiler: killing a young woman who's totally blameless?]] It's suggested that he did it because [[spoiler: she]] made him feel envious, but that's not [[spoiler: her]] fault; it seems analogous to killing a rich man because you want what he has. What's Doe's reasoning behind this particular murder?
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