History Headscratchers / Se7en

17th Oct '17 7:39:27 PM Iris
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* [[spoiler:Why did only the Pride victim get a choice in regards to her sin? Live, but be disfigured. I get that beauty is something one's born with, so Doe couldn't justify killing just any pretty person to himself, but why not just kill anyone who got a lot of plastic surgery, or was diagnosed with narcissism?]]

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* [[spoiler:Why did only the Pride victim get a choice in regards to her sin? Live, but be disfigured. I get that beauty is something one's born with, so Doe couldn't justify killing just any pretty person to himself, but why not just kill anyone who got a lot of plastic surgery, or was diagnosed with narcissism?]]narcissism?]]
** That's exactly it-he couldn't justify killing any pretty person, so he had to prove that she was vain, not just beautiful. He wanted to make her admit that she valued her looks more than her life, therefore demonstrating and punishing the sin in one go.
27th Apr '17 4:37:49 PM Sharlee
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Added DiffLines:

*** Possibly he wasn't an ''exclusive'' pedophile, but went after kids because it was easier. They're vulnerable, low-hanging fruit by comparison with the greater effort of assaulting an adult victim, hooking up with a one-night fling, or even (gasp!) putting in the effort to have a real ''relationship''. Lust, yes, but really lazy lust.
2nd Feb '17 8:35:03 AM OneElitist
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** Would Victor have felt any pain by the time he was found, or would he be so insane that he wouldn't be able to feel anything? And if so, how long would it take for him to become ''that'' insane? Also, would he be aware of where he is and who's in the room once he went completely insane, even if he's not able to communicate?
22nd Nov '16 11:50:52 AM Ansongc2000
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** A common trait of Pride in people who think Pride is bad but are nonetheless guilty of it is the refusal to admit to oneself that one is Proud. Doe would rather pretend to have Envy (which it's obvious is just an excuse - it's doubtful he actually believes it) than admit that he is simply a madman with grandiose delusions. It's painfully obvious that he is guilty of Pride; at the same time, it's painfully obvious that he won't admit to it- after all, another trait of Pride is the refusal to admit that you have done anything wrong.

to:

** A common trait of Pride in people who think Pride is bad but are nonetheless guilty of it is the refusal to admit to oneself that one is Proud. Doe would rather pretend to have Envy (which it's obvious is just an excuse - it's doubtful he actually believes it) than admit that he is simply a madman with grandiose delusions. It's painfully obvious that he is guilty of Pride; at the same time, it's painfully obvious that he won't admit to it- after all, another trait of Pride is the refusal to admit that you have done anything wrong.wrong.

* [[spoiler:Why did only the Pride victim get a choice in regards to her sin? Live, but be disfigured. I get that beauty is something one's born with, so Doe couldn't justify killing just any pretty person to himself, but why not just kill anyone who got a lot of plastic surgery, or was diagnosed with narcissism?]]
3rd Sep '16 1:42:01 PM ArchTeryx
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to:

*** Tracy's death created, in John Doe's sick mind, a closed loop. He committed the sin of Envy by killing her, an innocent that he envied the normal life of. Mills then committed the sin of Wrath by killing Doe, forcing him to pay the fatal price for Envy. And now Mills' family is dead and life wrecked, making him pay for the sin of Wrath ''for the rest of his life.''
20th Aug '16 3:24:28 PM Dragon101
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** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation, hallucinations, paranoia, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''a whole year'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.

to:

** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation, hallucinations, paranoia, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests exams just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests.test. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''a whole year'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.
20th Aug '16 3:23:17 PM Dragon101
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** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation, hallucinations, paranoia, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.

to:

** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation, hallucinations, paranoia, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''.'''a whole year'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.
20th Aug '16 3:20:16 PM Dragon101
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** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation, hallucinations, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.

to:

** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation, hallucinations, paranoia, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.
20th Aug '16 3:18:53 PM Dragon101
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** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation and other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.

to:

** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation isolation, hallucinations, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.
20th Aug '16 3:14:07 PM Dragon101
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** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation and other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.



*** He said he went after sinners he never said that he '''only''' went after sinners He didn't go after people like the sellers or the clients because he was simply trying to make an example of the Gluttony and Greed victims, not eradicate all bad people. But that doesn't mean he won't kill innocent people to make his point either- the Lust victim arguably wasn't the prostitute, for instance, but the client who hired her, plus he threatened to kill said client AND he shot at Somerset and Mills, and will kill anyone who gets in his way. Besides, he specifically says that he himself is guilty of Envy and needs to be punished for it (in order to turn Mills into Wrath), so he murdered an innocent person for the sake of murdering an innocent person- because it's pretty obvious that he doesn't think murdering "guilty" people is sufficient to make him a sinner. Besides, he wasn't REALLY guilty of Envy- he'd just decided that the ''coup de gras'' of his EvilPlan will be to make Mills into Wrath, and since he has one sin left, the most straightforward way of achieving that is just to pretend that he is Envious of Mills and thats why he killed her- when really, he just needed a flimsy excuse to involve her (and thus Mills) in his twisted story.

to:

*** He said he went after sinners he never said that he '''only''' went after sinners sinners. He didn't go after people like the sellers or the clients because he was simply trying to make an example of the Gluttony and Greed victims, not eradicate all bad people. But that doesn't mean he won't kill innocent people to make his point either- the Lust victim arguably wasn't the prostitute, for instance, but the client who hired her, plus he threatened to kill said client AND he shot at Somerset and Mills, and will kill anyone who gets in his way. Besides, he specifically says that he himself is guilty of Envy and needs to be punished for it (in order to turn Mills into Wrath), so he murdered an innocent person for the sake of murdering an innocent person- because it's pretty obvious that he doesn't think murdering "guilty" people is sufficient to make him a sinner. Besides, he wasn't REALLY guilty of Envy- he'd just decided that the ''coup de gras'' of his EvilPlan will be to make Mills into Wrath, and since he has one sin left, the most straightforward way of achieving that is just to pretend that he is Envious of Mills and thats why he killed her- when really, he just needed a flimsy excuse to involve her (and thus Mills) in his twisted story.



* Frankly, John Doe should have been pride. Go back to Milton, the belief that one who is not god has the ability to make judgements in his name is the ultimate example of Pride, which is suppose to be the greatest of the sins. After all, Satan himself is associated with it. John never shows any hint of envy, in fact other than pride and disgust, he shows very little emotion. Envy should have been Sommerset, who clearly is somewhat jealous of MIl's loving relationship.

to:

* Frankly, John Doe should have been pride. Go back to Milton, the belief that one who is not god has the ability to make judgements in his name is the ultimate example of Pride, which is suppose to be the greatest of the sins. After all, Satan himself is associated with it. John never shows any hint of envy, in fact other than pride and disgust, he shows very little emotion. Envy should have been Sommerset, who clearly is somewhat jealous of MIl's Mill's loving relationship.relationship.
** A common trait of Pride in people who think Pride is bad but are nonetheless guilty of it is the refusal to admit to oneself that one is Proud. Doe would rather pretend to have Envy (which it's obvious is just an excuse - it's doubtful he actually believes it) than admit that he is simply a madman with grandiose delusions. It's painfully obvious that he is guilty of Pride; at the same time, it's painfully obvious that he won't admit to it- after all, another trait of Pride is the refusal to admit that you have done anything wrong.
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