History Headscratchers / Persona4

*** That's because Bosch has a very distinctive yelling/shouting voice(just listen to Nero from ''VideoGame/DevilMayCry 4'', no matter how different his characters sound they all yell the same way).

** No, it isn't. There is a clear etymology, however, stemming from the word "brunette". As a pun, it is quite common to refer to people with [[YouGottaHaveBlueHair blue hair]] as being "bluenette". Even though the "ette" suffix only makes sense with blue due to pun reasons, it's the only existing suffix for fictional hair colors, so people carry it over to non-pun colors.

** Well.
Adachi's driving force seems to be, like, what's the point of complience and contentment if it doesn't give me what I want? I tried, he's saying, to be compacent, and what it brought me? a position of junior detective in the middle of nowhere, and girls don't like me (and are sluts anyways). Who the hell cares about humanity anyways? You? Naaaah, you don't; if you would, you wouldn't pursue the Truth, because nobody but you wants it. So, essentially, you're like me, you're not on moral high ground above me, so what are we even doing here? On what right you're judging me? Go home, children, and call adults to argue next time.
And IT is answering: first of all, you suck.
Second. We, actually, just didn't came to argue philosophy with you. We're not here to convince you that you're bad. You're not mystical "adult" in Plato's Academy who has rational discussion on phylosophy 101, you're spoiled brat who don't get things his way and whining. In the end, our moral authority is that you're manipulative murderer & harasser, and we are not, and you know it, so stop piss in our ear and call it raining. If you refuse it, it's up to power, and, if might makes right, we're still right over you.
You literally has no actual frame that would prove you right beyond shitty words. You're saying that hard work isn't paying off? Tell it Rise or Yukiko, or, well, Yosuke. You're saying that nobody cares about truth and other people? People who actively do outnumber you right here, like, seven to one. You're saying that being good and nice isn't paying off? Tell it Yu. You're saying that might makes right? Well, then you lost, because we're more powerful. Your only answer on "what's your proof" is "YOU'RE CHILDREN AND DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT SHIT I'VE GONE THROUGH. Not convincing."
Even this - "because they got what they wanted by joining together, regardless of how sound their logic actually was" - is the point. Their logic: "joining together and caring about people is better for you as well, because you got what you want this way". Adachi: "no, you don't". IT: "let's test this".

** 'Police' doesn't know it. Naoto does know as she looked for strange deals in the city, and checked for IT then; Adachi knows it for, well, obvious reasons. But police in general believes that only thing that happens is three murders. Naoto, at least in Golden, even use it exactly to catch Adachi - she asks him "when I read diary of presumed criminal, I noticed that even victims who was just kidnapped; why did you answered "that's settled then"?"

* So, during Yukiko's castle, there are tones of something between Chie and Yukiko. I know, RomanticTwoGirlFriendship, but still. Chie's other self getting all up about how awesome it is Yukiko thinks herself lower then Chie, and how Yukiko is really attractive, Yukiko going on about how nice it is Chie said red looks good on her (and she now wears red, pretty much constantly) then Chie getting called Yukiko's prince, and then... nothing. They're friends, but it's never brought up again. I also get that they are now romantic options, doesn't make it better. And that's not getting into Chie's shadow having lots of girls in uniforms lift her up...

*** Their appearance still seems androgynous enough to mistake her for a man. As for the voice, some boys just never have voice drops, it's not impossible to assume that's the case here.

** They're anime characters not everything you see is supposed to be 100% down to earth and realistic. They're anime antics. For a less cope-out explanation, I guess because people can be friends with people they're not totally fluffy-duffy with. Abuse and sexual harassment obviously isn't okay, but I nots exactly as severe nor frequant as you make it seem. You've got to take into account that the time elapses between events in game is far longer than a player's experience, literally weeks and months. Plus they're teenagers, and teenagers who are going through/have gone through extremely abnormal experiences together. They're hardly going to be like "bye, see you never again" over some flaws in each others personalities. Chie and Yukiko do get on Yosuke's case all the time for his borderline creepy obsession with cute girls(there's one particularly strong example of this in P4D's story) and the girls are often called out by the games (including the spin-offs) for being overly harsh or bitchy at times. The games don't ignore their flaws at all.

*** The framing by the game of any points that Adachi does actually touch upon as his way of "whining" is itself the problem, though. Don't get me wrong, you're 100% correct here. But the issue I think a lot of people have is that beneath all of Adachi's personal whining, there is a valid point that the game touches upon but all but fails to look into any deeper, one that a lot of real people relate to. And to them, it feels like a slap in the face for the game to frame it all ''through'' Adachi's self-centered, hallow nonsense, and avoid looking at it with bany more depth. In my opinion, Persona 4 would've been strengthened as a story if they had explored these points a little deeper. The entire problem ''is'' the context framing in the first place. There's no attempt to actually go beyond the surface level "black-and-white" context of "Adachi, the heartless selfish psycho" vs. "the people who got hurt".

*** The "bottom line" here isn't about the context, it's about the framing by the game. The point that was originally being made was not "Adachi had a point"; whether you think he does or not doesn't matter. The issue is that the game frames any points he might actually have as "excuses"; and this is the only context where they're discussed in the first place. By doing that, a lot of people feel as if the game is telling people who might think like Adachi, or who might have similar worries or complaints as him, that they're as bad as Adachi himself for thinking this way. People keep framing this argument as people "avoiding context", but no one is avoiding context. The point that's being made is that that context itself is flawed and biased.

** Is this topic serious? Adachi is a double murderer who deliberately helped enact a series of what could easily become more murders of innocent people for his own sense of entitled amusement. When cornered, he excused his vile actions with a self-pitying rants about intensely petty complaints and you're getting upset about the protagonists not buying into his crap? Adachi isn't some tragic figure, he's a sociopathic manchild insistent that he is entitled to more in life without making the efforts to improve it himself. Instead of facing his issues and changing his unsatisfying life situation, he decided to play a sadistic game with the lives of those around him for fun. The team has every right to tell him exactly where he can shove it.

** Adachi isn't looking for some reformation of society and his "points" are incredibly vague at best. He doesn't really care about anything he's saying for the world as a whole. He only cares about how he himself isn't getting what he think's he's owed. He could have changed his life in any of a thousand ways, but chose to victimize others solely to get a cheap power high. Whatever point he may have is irrelevant because he's only using it to hide from his personal responsibility for murder. He couldn't care less about some sense of cosmic "fairness," he just wants to rant that he has the right to do whatever he wants because his life didn't turn out perfect. Nobody matters to Adachi besides Adachi. The Investigation Team was completely right to disregard his ranting and treat him like the scum he is.

*** That's not what we're saying. No one's supporting Adachi or rooting for him for what he did. He's an evil scumbag, who pulls excuses outta his ass to justify murdering people. No one's denying that. What we're pointing out is that the Investigation Team are not as "goody-goodie"/100% in the right as they're often made out to be (by both fans, and often times the Persona 4 games themselves). You can point out the flaws in one side without it automatically making you an advocate for the other side, you realise.
*** Is the point of this folder to complain about how yukiko made a passive agressive insult towards suicde ? I dont see how that's a problem. Adachi wanted to run away from the consequeces of his actions by dying and Yukiko called him out on it. The writers don't need to take a politicaly correct stance on world issue just cause a troper got offended. And of course the Investigation Team were being highly emotional. Of course a group of teenagers wouldnt just calmly chat with a serial killer and listen to his self serving justifications.People who cant handle the truth(pun intended) have no right to complain.

*** I honestly can't believe this is even a thing. You would rather side with a murderer who doesn't even cares about his victims at all and is nothing but a loser who tries to play the "victim" card to justify taking the lives of innocent people, than someone you ambiguously think is "toxic" for seemingly throwing a passive agressive line? The Investigation team isn't perfect, they are humans. Reality check: not everyone is perfect, and not everyone means harm in the way they say things. Even though Yukiko's line MIGHT seem to be as harmful as OP said it was, I doubt it was the writer's intentions to make her an uncaring person who doesn't really care much about someone who's "suicidal". You're reading far too much into something that wasn't meant to be taken that seriously; it's called projecting into it.

** P5 gives a decent display of what happens. When a person's Shadow dies, the resulting loss completely shatters their minds permanently, leaving them vegetative husks. In some cases, outright killing them outright. Presumably, when the Shadow Self attacks their human, this effectively results in the Shadow breaks the rest of their minds, making the victim suffer a mental shutdown so violent that it is fatal to even the healthiest people. The body is then discarded from the TV World by other Shadows as the now-dead human no longer has any tasty thoughts or emotions to feed on, making the corpse useless garbage to Shadows. That would also explain why none of the bodies show any physical injuries that should cause death.

* Your looking for a person who kills people by throwing them in TV's letting them be destroyed by the personification of their negative traits while you save them with the powers of various deitys and other mythological creatures, and your problem is that no one could have a motive?

* I'm having a hard time trying to imaginate how in blazes Mitsuo managed to overpower Morooka, let alone bludgeon him to death. The game never goes in detail on how he committed the murder, aside for Naoto telling us that Kinshiro died via blunt force trauma to the head and Mitsuo's game log that indicates the teacher of the year at least put up a fight before buying the farm.

* The mythology refrences are brought up in the true ending, but why does no one bat an eyelash at every other deity (like Thor) that Protagonist can use, only at Izanami?

*** I hightly doubt that anyone from the team other than Naoto (and perhaps Protagonist) was actually paying attention to Edogawa's long ass lecture. That might explains it.

* About the real culprit Did Adachi actually do it for the eviluz? There's this subtext that says otherwise. After pushing Saki into the TV, Adachi complaints about today's youth and mentions that, when he was a student, he wasn't allowed to do anything but "studying [his] ass off" and then says he was supposed to the "best of the best" but got send to halfway to the middle of nowhere after a minor screw up instead. Then during the final confrontation at Magatsu Mandala, the insane one rants on how the only ones capable of being successful in life are the ones "born with a magical ticket called 'talent'" and how the rest are a put it simple screwed, that being the reason of why a reality where nothing of this exist appeals him so much. All based on his own experience, of course. And then Yukiko and Naoto stick it to him, calling Adachi an inmature, selfish brat that blames the whole damn world for his lousy spot in life, to which Shadow Adachi replies by snaping and yelling that stupid teenagers like them dont' have any idea of the shit he's been through. So Adachi's motives, as far I'm concerned, boil down on being a whiny, pathetic [[TheResenter Resenter]] that can't get over the fact that life isn't fair and how Main/HardWorkHardlyWorks i.e a classic Main/FreudianExcuse.

** People who do things for the Evlizu are often self loathing, whiney man children who justify their behaviour with simalar excuses.

[[folder:Resemblances between Personas and Shadow Selves]]
* Yosuke's shadow resembles Jiraiya (note that thing on the head), but nobody elses resembles their Persona at all.

** Interestingly Yosuke and Chie's shadows have their Persona's faces with a monsterous form as shadows, the party members who had a monster themed to their dungeon have the same general shape of the shadow but have their characters faces. The exception is Teddie who's shadow and Persona don't resemble each other in the slightest.

[[folder:Shadow Selves, Symbolism & You]]

** When my family and I played it,I just assumed it was because Yosuke is a toad. (he is not a popular character in our house.)

*** The issue I have with that is that none of the other party S-Links involve major life or career changes, only changes in self-perception (from what I remember, anyway, it's been awhile). Yosuke's S.Link doesn't see him plan to move back to the city, only to decide that he loves Inaba in the process and change his mind. Kanji's S.Link doesn't see him struggle with his feminine side only to realize he's a true man and then disdain all the progress he makes. Chie and Naoto basically come to grips with themselves in a comparitively mild, straightforward way, but Rise and Yukiko at least start out wanting to improve their situations by actively deciding to get out of them, which is not easy, especially for young women, and then deciding that no, everything was fine before, and they themselves were the problem for not accepting their situations for what they were. Yukiko never asks herself what made her feel trapped in the first place, just that she DID feel trapped, and now that she doesn't feel that way, she puts aside all the ambition she discovered and then faithfully pursued the career tradition gave her (considering her strong YamatoNadeshiko themes, I was really disappointed when she didn't break the stereotype and go off to seek her destiny on her own). Rise doesn't regret getting out of the idol business until another idol comes to take her place-- something that she ''had'' to have known would happen eventually, just by the nature of the industry, and then she chooses to go back, because she's come to terms with herself as an idol (and because she's jealous of Kanamin's attention, apparently). I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I just don't buy it.

[[folder:The World is Japan]]

** Golden`s bonus epilogue says that he knew a lot of things ``only the real killer would know``.

*** I always assumed he felt dizzy as in 'feeling sick after realising he blew up the chance to save someone', not that he was actually feeling anything physical. Like if you accidentally kill a kitten, you may vomit.

** I saw a fanfic exploring what might have happened if Y did just stick his hand in. Basically, Dojima drags Protagonist to the police station anyways, both to test it out on a different TV and to get more information, and while Protagonist demonstrates again Adachi shoves Protagonist into the TV. Aside from that, in the beginning of the game Protagonist tried sticking his hand into the TV and almost got fully sucked in.

*** It's not just the red tape from the police that would restrict the Investigation Team; a further risk would arise in that Dojima and the other parents would still be worried about Yu and Co. [[NiceJobBreakingItHero Everyone in the Investigation team would still be restricted in their movements as now their parents/guardians would want to make sure that they don't do anything dangerous to themselves, thus less opportunities for the IT to sneak past and enter the TV World.]] Particularly for the aformentioned Yu, Yukiko and Yosuke:

* This is a Gameplay and Story Segragation thing, but you have the ability to leave Nanako in the telly for a good while. With a madman. I just couldn't wrap my head around it, because the idea of leaving my young cousin with a murder and kidnapper while I was out shopping with my friends just didn't gel (I saved her in one go). I guess you can say that for all of the missing, but that one really stuck out.

** Chie was jealous that Yukiko was good-looking, and so she got a charge out of the fact that Yukiko felt like she needed Chie to hold up her "worthless existence". She wasn't ogling over her attractiveness, nor was she acting sexually dominating. It's true that Yukiko calls Chie her "prince", and that's probably the closest things get becoming borderline subtext, but it's hardly enough on it's own. And someone with a whip being lifted up by people isn't innately sexual imagery, you realize. It's supposed to be representative of two things: both Chie's hidden side (that she's a, to quote the shadow itself, "grubby bitch" who uses her friendship with a "worthless" yet good-looking girl as a way to support her own self-worth), and also how she views Yukiko (who's the good-looking friend, who's going to forever dominate over her and make her feel worthless). To be entirely honest, the fact that people even try and sexualize/romanticise the issues that exist within Chie and Yukiko's friendship is pretty disgusting. I'm all for dom/sub stuff when it's healthy and isn't insanely toxic, but this would be toxic, by quite a country mile.

*** I take the murderer-point, but still: Why did his shadow dissapear, if he did not accept it? Shouldn't it be growing stronger and attack the party once more? At least thats what Teddie meant, before Yosuke accepted his Persona. (It would be rather cool if Mitsuo used his Persona to attack the heroes)

*** Now for Yosuke and other, despite being somewhat reculant, they known that they have problem. Turning shadow into persona in real life would be when you realize that you have problem, then working to overcome it (remember that each of party's S-Link is about them try to improve themselves?). Remember how Izanami mention that Adachi's persona got revert into shadow? That's what happen when you just accept your darkside without even try to overcome it.

*** Contrary to what Adachi says, it's actually unbelievably hard to lift fingerprints from clothing, because clothing is absorbent and the prints had been there all night - the best fingerprints are fresh and on smooth, non-absorbent material like metal or glass. It would have been easier to find skin flakes ...

*** In responce to suspecting Yukiko. They died by "unknown cause", most people suspect poisoning.

*** Uncomfortability being seen as a woman ''is'' par of her gender identity, regardless of the reason. It also doesn't explain why she dresses up just to go around town or continues to at school after her cover is completely blown. She's certainly more comfortable being seen as a man, and regardless of the reasoning that's pretty clearly transsexual or genderqueer to some extent.

[[folder:Inaba, ? Number Of Days Without A Horrific Incidient]]

** Whether the overt "allegory", for lack of a better wording, that the entire game was trying to put across regarding Adachi's stance is "BS" or not is pretty subjective. Adachi's entire point, when applied to our real world, basically boils down to the fact that people who are born with, say, genetically gifted good looks, or the genetic ability to sing, are going to have a far more easy, blissful life then those who aren't. This in itself is vaguely subjective, but let's face it, ignoring the entirely subjective and side to "being born with privilege" (sex/gender, race, ect) it isn't ''that'' subjective when it comes to other points such as physical attractiveness. There is a great deal of objectivity in the fact that genetics, something you have no control over at birth, will play a part in how much of a head start you have in your life. Yet people always side-step this by implying that it doesn't matter because those without this can work hard to make up that head start, and even get ahead of them. The game's stance, from the villain's perspective is basically that this is BS logic. It's like giving someone a head start in a foot race, and then telling the other runners that it's fine because they still have a ''chance'' at making the distance up and ultimately winning. From Adachi's perspective it just doesn't make sense, and yes, in this troper's opinion he definitely has at least somewhat of a point. At the very least, you can see where he's coming from. The problem, as has been pointed out, is not whether he is right or wrong, but how he took advantage this to commit evil acts. He's a total hypocrite who's using his stance to throw a childish tantrum, but at his bare minimum he does have a point. In my opinion, I don't think the game is trying to specifically push Adachi's stance out as entirely wrong, nor is it trying to paint the Investigation Team as entire in the right either (as was discussed above). There's a number of times across all Persona 4 media where they approach it with a lot of objectivity and contemplate that, yes, he may have a point.