History Headscratchers / Persona4

30th Sep '17 1:11:37 AM nowaymanguy
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*** I understand the point the scene, and Adachi's character in general, was ''supposed'' to be going for. I simply believe that it doesn't present it's more aspects that are more ambitious that well. Nor does it actually address any of Adachi's issues he raises. My primary issue with the way the story presents itself is that, by not actually addressing the grey ambiguity that well, and by summing up everything Adachi stands for and believes in into the entire notion of "this guy is vile", it can come across as lumping the actual ideals, opinions, beliefs, and points that he stands for into the villain's own character. Just speaking generally for a moment, this is why grey ambiguity needs to be presented well, and presented fully, in fiction, and not done in a half-assed way if they're going to try and go for it at all. It's fine having a "good guy" and a "bad guy", ect, but when you do this kind of thing poorly, it gives off the extremely toxic message of "anyone who has these opinions is toxic and one step away from being a villain". And, at least to me personally, Persona 4 tips into that. Honestly that one scene with their confrontation is my primary reason for that. Good intentions on the message and what it's trying to put across or not, it doesn't excuse if it handles it shoddily at times, which again, Persona 4 does to me. With Yukiko's line though, that is exactly what is so bad about it as well. I'm not accusing the writers of purposefully planting toxic messages in the dialogue, because yes, they probably meant for her line to have a good meaning behind it. But it's like you said, Adachi desperately clings to his life despite hating it so much, and Yukiko's response to this is to just shout "that makes no sense, people won't understand you!" at him. I'm sorry, but as someone who's dealt with personal suicidal urges before, and as someone who knows others who have as well, I can tell you for a fact that this is a completely ordinary feeling for people with suicidal urges to think. The oxymoron of finding living too horrific, but still wanting to cling on to it all the same as much as you can. While, yes, I'm sure the writers meant for Yukiko's line to come across like a tough slap to the face for people with these kinds of feelings to face reality, the fact is the way it's presented is a lot more like a sucker punch to the gut. Seeing someone you're supposed to like, and see as heroic, tell you that you make no sense and no one will understand you, because of your oxymoron feelings towards living, '''and''' having the game act like what she said was actually ''true'' can be downright toxic for a suicidal player who's looking to play the game to brighten themselves up, or some such.

to:

*** I understand the point the scene, and Adachi's character in general, was ''supposed'' to be going for. I simply believe that it doesn't present it's more aspects that are more ambitious that well. Nor does it actually address any of Adachi's issues he raises. My primary issue with the way the story presents itself is that, by not actually addressing the grey ambiguity that well, and by summing up everything Adachi stands for and believes in into the entire notion of "this guy is vile", it can come across as lumping the actual ideals, opinions, beliefs, and points that he stands for into the villain's own character. Just speaking generally for a moment, this is why grey ambiguity needs to be presented well, and presented fully, in fiction, and not done in a half-assed way if they're going to try and go for it at all. It's fine having a "good guy" and a "bad guy", ect, but when you do this kind of thing poorly, it gives off the extremely toxic message of "anyone who has these opinions is toxic and one step away from being a villain". And, at least to me personally, Persona 4 tips into that. Honestly that one scene with their confrontation is my primary reason for that. Good intentions on the message and what it's trying to put across or not, it doesn't excuse if it handles it shoddily at times, which again, Persona 4 does to me. With Yukiko's line though, that is exactly what is so bad about it as well. I'm not accusing the writers of purposefully planting toxic messages in the dialogue, because yes, they probably meant for her line to have a good meaning behind it. But it's like you said, Adachi desperately clings to his life despite hating it so much, and Yukiko's response to this is to just shout "that makes no sense, people won't understand you!" at him. I'm sorry, but as someone who's dealt with personal suicidal urges before, and as someone who knows others who have as well, I can tell you for a fact that this is a completely ordinary feeling for people with suicidal urges to think. The oxymoron of finding living "I hate my life and can't stand living, but I don't want to/am too horrific, but still wanting scared to cling on to it all die". I can say personally, that this feeling ran rampant through my head and my soul ''all the same as much as you can.damn time'' back when I was going through an especially rough time. While, yes, I'm sure the writers meant for Yukiko's line to come across like a tough slap to the face for people with these kinds of feelings to face reality, the fact is the way it's presented is a lot more like a sucker punch to the gut. Again, as I'm constantly reiterating, the issue is how it's presented. Seeing a character that's presented as someone you're supposed meant to like, and see as heroic, tell you that you make no sense and no one will understand you, because of your oxymoron feelings towards living, '''and''' spit out an incredibly simplified viewpoint on an issue like this, then having the game act like present her as being in the right for what she said was actually ''true'' she's saying, can be downright outright toxic for a suicidal player who's looking certain players to play see. And I know it probably seems like I'm making a big fuss over one small line of dialogue, but the game to brighten themselves up, or some such.overall point is that Yukiko's line basically showcases the primary problem I have with how Persona 4 presents it's point, especially during that one scene.


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29th Sep '17 9:53:03 PM nowaymanguy
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*** I understand the point the scene, and Adachi's character in general, was ''supposed'' to be going for. I simply believe that it doesn't present it's more aspects that are more ambitious that well. Nor does it actually address any of Adachi's issues he raises. My primary issue with the way the story presents itself is that, by not actually addressing the grey ambiguity that well, and by summing up everything Adachi stands for and believes in into the entire notion of "this guy is vile", it can come across as lumping the actual ideals, opinions, beliefs, and points that he stands for into the villain's own character. Just speaking generally for a moment, this is why grey ambiguity needs to be presented well, and presented fully, in fiction, and not done in a half-assed way if they're going to try and go for it at all. It's fine having a "good guy" and a "bad guy", ect, but when you do this kind of thing poorly, it gives off the extremely toxic message of "anyone who has these opinions is toxic and one step away from being a villain". And, at least to me personally, Persona 4 tips into that. Honestly that one scene with their confrontation is my primary reason for that. Good intentions on the message and what it's trying to put across or not, it doesn't excuse if it handles it shoddily at times, which again, Persona 4 does to me. With Yukiko's line though, that is exactly what is so bad about it as well. I'm not accusing the writers of purposefully planting toxic messages in the dialogue, because yes, they probably meant for her line to have a good meaning behind it. But it's like you said, Adachi desperately clings to his life despite hating it so much, and Yukiko's response to this is to just shout "that means no sense, people won't understand you!" at him. I'm sorry, but as someone who's dealt with personal suicidal urges before, and as someone who knows others who have as well, I can tell you for a fact that this is a completely ordinary feeling for people with suicidal urges to think. The oxymoron of finding living too horrific, but still wanting to cling on to it all the same as much as you can. While, yes, I'm sure the writers meant for Yukiko's line to come across like a tough slap to the face for people with these kinds of feelings to face reality, the fact is the way it's presented is a lot more like a sucker punch to the gut. Seeing someone you're supposed to like, and see as heroic, tell you that you make no sense and no one will understand you, because of your oxymoron feelings towards living, '''and''' having the game act like what she said was actually ''true'' can be downright toxic for a suicidal player who's looking to play the game to brighten themselves up, or some such.

to:

*** I understand the point the scene, and Adachi's character in general, was ''supposed'' to be going for. I simply believe that it doesn't present it's more aspects that are more ambitious that well. Nor does it actually address any of Adachi's issues he raises. My primary issue with the way the story presents itself is that, by not actually addressing the grey ambiguity that well, and by summing up everything Adachi stands for and believes in into the entire notion of "this guy is vile", it can come across as lumping the actual ideals, opinions, beliefs, and points that he stands for into the villain's own character. Just speaking generally for a moment, this is why grey ambiguity needs to be presented well, and presented fully, in fiction, and not done in a half-assed way if they're going to try and go for it at all. It's fine having a "good guy" and a "bad guy", ect, but when you do this kind of thing poorly, it gives off the extremely toxic message of "anyone who has these opinions is toxic and one step away from being a villain". And, at least to me personally, Persona 4 tips into that. Honestly that one scene with their confrontation is my primary reason for that. Good intentions on the message and what it's trying to put across or not, it doesn't excuse if it handles it shoddily at times, which again, Persona 4 does to me. With Yukiko's line though, that is exactly what is so bad about it as well. I'm not accusing the writers of purposefully planting toxic messages in the dialogue, because yes, they probably meant for her line to have a good meaning behind it. But it's like you said, Adachi desperately clings to his life despite hating it so much, and Yukiko's response to this is to just shout "that means makes no sense, people won't understand you!" at him. I'm sorry, but as someone who's dealt with personal suicidal urges before, and as someone who knows others who have as well, I can tell you for a fact that this is a completely ordinary feeling for people with suicidal urges to think. The oxymoron of finding living too horrific, but still wanting to cling on to it all the same as much as you can. While, yes, I'm sure the writers meant for Yukiko's line to come across like a tough slap to the face for people with these kinds of feelings to face reality, the fact is the way it's presented is a lot more like a sucker punch to the gut. Seeing someone you're supposed to like, and see as heroic, tell you that you make no sense and no one will understand you, because of your oxymoron feelings towards living, '''and''' having the game act like what she said was actually ''true'' can be downright toxic for a suicidal player who's looking to play the game to brighten themselves up, or some such.
29th Sep '17 9:48:41 PM nowaymanguy
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*** I understand the point the scene, and Adachi's character in general, was ''supposed'' to be going for. I simply believe that it doesn't present it's more aspects that are more ambitious that well. Nor does it actually address any of Adachi's issues he raises. My primary issue with the way the story presents itself is that, by not actually addressing the grey ambiguity that well, and by summing up everything Adachi stands for and believes in into the entire notion of "this guy is vile", it can come across as lumping the actual ideals, opinions, beliefs, and points that he stands for into the villain's own character. Just speaking generally for a moment, this is why grey ambiguity needs to be presented well, and presented fully, in fiction, and not done in a half-assed way if they're going to try and go for it at all. It's fine having a "good guy" and a "bad guy", ect, but when you do this kind of thing poorly, it gives off the extremely toxic message of "anyone who has these opinions is toxic and one step away from being a villain". And, at least to me personally, Persona 4 tips into that. Honestly that one scene with their confrontation is my primary reason for that. Good intentions on the message and what it's trying to put across or not, it doesn't excuse if it handles it shoddily at times, which again, Persona 4 does to me. With Yukiko's line though, that is exactly what is so bad about it as well. I'm not accusing the writers of purposefully planting toxic messages in the dialogue, because yes, they probably meant for her line to have a good meaning behind it. But it's like you said, Adachi desperately clings to his life despite hating it so much, and Yukiko's response to this is to just shout "that means no sense, people won't understand you!" at him. I'm sorry, but as someone who's dealt with personal suicidal urges before, and as someone who knows others who have as well, I can tell you for a fact that this is a completely ordinary feeling for people with suicidal urges to think. The oxymoron of finding living too horrific, but still wanting to cling on to it all the same as much as you can. While, yes, I'm sure the writers meant for Yukiko's line to come across like a tough slap to the face for people with these kinds of feelings to face reality, the fact is the way it's presented is a lot more like a sucker punch to the gut. Seeing someone you're supposed to like, and see as heroic, tell you that you make no sense and no one will understand you, because of your oxymoron feelings towards living, '''and''' having the game act like what she said was actually ''true'' can be downright toxic for a suicidal player who's looking to play the game to brighten themselves up, or some such.



29th Sep '17 9:00:13 PM RisetteFan
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** To be honest, I don't think it's that simple. Adachi's thing that makes him so vile is that while his base attitude seems relatable at first, the fact that he *acts* on his feelings of entitlement is what truly makes him so twisted. He refuses to take control of his life and fate and instead is under the delusion that he deserves to have all the prestige. He never "worked" towards what he wanted, and instead chose to snap when he felt life did things that were unfair to him and throw a fit about it. He acts like all of his problems and hardships are his own and whines about it, making excuses for his vile actions like murder. When you try to coerce others into your own misery without feeling any remorse for it, that's when you're truly a vie person. The idea behind Adachi's character is that anyone should take responsibility for their own actions, regardless of who they may be. And besides, the IT isn't as "perfect-born" as you think. If you played Rise's Social Link, you'll find that she spent most of her childhood as a wallflower: bullied by others, having no friends, and living under strict parents. A literal nobody. She worked her way towards her fame as an idol, and she dedicated a lot of effort, and gave up a lot to harness a career in that field. Yosuke's family had only recently been contracted to manage Junes in Inaba as of P4's events, and he was and is more or less an ordinary teenage guy as a person. His work at Junes is penny pinching and he's a butt of jokes, is used as a complaint box for the other part-timers, and is treated as an outsider in Inaba due to Junes "damaging" their historic shopping district business. Yukiko is great looking, but looks aren't everything. She's an heiress to a historic inn, and most of her life revolved around her taking on the inn in her future. She struggles with the fact that she doesn't feel like she's *able* to take control of her life and fate, and whether she actually wants to meet her family's expectations for her. Plus it disturbs her that she would possibly be admired for looks and not for actual capability as a person. Naoto may come from a famous lineage, but she's a female working in a profession where females aren't very respected, especially since Japan has an extremely binary notion of gender roles. Famous lineage or not, her gender and her status as a child made her struggle with actually being respected by others. Most of the police she worked with considered her a nuisance or just a tool more often than not. She had trouble with being underestimated by others. Admittedly the MC was glorified in the spin-offs, but that largely came from the fact that he was originally intended to be mostly a blank slate for the player to project some character into. His base character is that he's stoic, responsible, but very isolated and lonely. The IT is really not entirely built against Adachi: they're all more or less average people who have their own struggles to deal with, in meeting other's expectations, working towards success in their own lives, but ultimately wanting to be respected and accepted by others. What actually puts them and Adachi as opposites is that Adachi refuses to work towards being a successful person: he expects success to come to him and acts on his sense of entitlement to inflict trouble on others. There's no excusing or sympathizing inflicting pain on other people out of childish impulses. He chooses to whine about his own misery and acts like he's the only person suffering. That's what truly makes him vile.

to:

** To be honest, I don't think it's that simple. Adachi's thing that makes him so vile is that while his base attitude seems relatable at first, the fact that he *acts* on his feelings of entitlement is what truly makes him so twisted. He refuses to take control of his life and fate and instead is under the delusion that he deserves to have all the prestige. He never "worked" towards what he wanted, and instead chose to snap when he felt life did things that were unfair to him and throw a fit about it. He acts like all of his problems and hardships are his own and whines about it, making excuses for his vile actions like murder. When you try to coerce others into your own misery without feeling any remorse for it, that's when you're truly a vie person. The idea behind Adachi's character is that anyone should take responsibility for their own actions, regardless of who they may be. And besides, the IT isn't as "perfect-born" as you think. If you played Rise's Social Link, you'll find that she spent most of her childhood as a wallflower: bullied by others, having no friends, and living under strict parents. A literal nobody. She worked her way towards her fame as an idol, and she dedicated a lot of effort, and gave up a lot to harness a career in that field. Yosuke's family had only recently been contracted to manage Junes in Inaba as of P4's events, and he was and is more or less an ordinary teenage guy as a person. His work at Junes is penny pinching and he's a butt of jokes, is used as a complaint box for the other part-timers, and is treated as an outsider in Inaba due to Junes "damaging" their historic shopping district business. Yukiko is great looking, but looks aren't everything. She's an heiress to a historic inn, and most of her life revolved around her taking on the inn in her future. She struggles with the fact that she doesn't feel like she's *able* to take control of her life and fate, and whether she actually wants to meet her family's expectations for her. Plus it disturbs her that she would possibly be admired for looks and not for actual capability as a person. Naoto may come from a famous lineage, but she's a female working in a profession where females aren't very respected, especially since Japan has an extremely binary notion of gender roles. Famous lineage or not, her gender and her status as a child made her struggle with actually being respected by others. Most of the police she worked with considered her a nuisance or just a tool more often than not. She had trouble with being underestimated by others. Admittedly the MC was glorified in the spin-offs, but that largely came from the fact that he was originally intended to be mostly a blank slate for the player to project some character into. His base character is that he's stoic, responsible, but very isolated and lonely. The IT is really not entirely built against Adachi: they're all more or less average people who have their own struggles to deal with, in meeting other's expectations, working towards success in their own lives, but ultimately wanting to be respected and accepted by others. What actually puts them and Adachi as opposites is that Adachi refuses to work towards being a successful person: he expects success to come to him and acts on his sense of entitlement to inflict trouble on others. There's no excusing or sympathizing inflicting pain on other people out of childish impulses. He chooses to whine about his own misery and acts like he's the only person suffering. That's what truly makes him vile.
29th Sep '17 8:57:46 PM RisetteFan
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***In addition, Yukiko's line about Adachi was moreso pointing out how ironic it was that Adachi was still desperately clinging to his life despite constantly talking about how much he hates it. It's ironic because he claims he is dissatisfied with his life and wants to end it all, but still continues to make it clear he wants to continue to live in a way that doesn't let go of his own misery.
29th Sep '17 8:44:38 PM RisetteFan
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** To be honest, I don't think it's that simple. Adachi's thing that makes him so vile is that while his base attitude seems relatable at first, the fact that he *acts* on his feelings of entitlement is what truly makes him so twisted. He refuses to take control of his life and fate and instead is under the delusion that he deserves to have all the prestige. He never "worked" towards what he wanted, and instead chose to snap when he felt life did things that were unfair to him and throw a fit about it. He acts like all of his problems and hardships are his own and whines about it, making excuses for his vile actions like murder. When you try to coerce others into your own misery without feeling any remorse for it, that's when you're truly a vie person. The idea behind Adachi's character is that anyone should take responsibility for their own actions, regardless of who they may be. And besides, the IT isn't as "perfect-born" as you think. If you played Rise's Social Link, you'll find that she spent most of her childhood as a wallflower: bullied by others, having no friends, and living under strict parents. A literal nobody. She worked her way towards her fame as an idol, and she dedicated a lot of effort, and gave up a lot to harness a career in that field. Yosuke's family had only recently been contracted to manage Junes in Inaba as of P4's events, and he was and is more or less an ordinary teenage guy as a person. His work at Junes is penny pinching and he's a butt of jokes, is used as a complaint box for the other part-timers, and is treated as an outsider in Inaba due to Junes "damaging" their historic shopping district business. Yukiko is great looking, but looks aren't everything. She's an heiress to a historic inn, and most of her life revolved around her taking on the inn in her future. She struggles with the fact that she doesn't feel like she's *able* to take control of her life and fate, and whether she actually wants to meet her family's expectations for her. Plus it disturbs her that she would possibly be admired for looks and not for actual capability as a person. Naoto may come from a famous lineage, but she's a female working in a profession where females aren't very respected, especially since Japan has an extremely binary notion of gender roles. Famous lineage or not, her gender and her status as a child made her struggle with actually being respected by others. Most of the police she worked with considered her a nuisance or just a tool more often than not. She had trouble with being underestimated by others. Admittedly the MC was glorified in the spin-offs, but that largely came from the fact that he was originally intended to be mostly a blank slate for the player to project some character into. His base character is that he's stoic, responsible, but very isolated and lonely. The IT is really not entirely built against Adachi: they're all more or less average people who have their own struggles to deal with, in meeting other's expectations, working towards success in their own lives, but ultimately wanting to be respected and accepted by others. What actually puts them and Adachi as opposites is that Adachi refuses to work towards being a successful person: he expects success to come to him and acts on his sense of entitlement to inflict trouble on others. There's no excusing or sympathizing inflicting pain on other people out of childish impulses. He chooses to whine about his own misery and acts like he's the only person suffering. That's what truly makes him vile.
29th Sep '17 9:03:50 AM wootzits
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* From the Investigation Team's point of view, Teddie just up and banishes into thin air after [[spoiler:Nanako's "death".]] Why do they not think that's suspicious? He even gets a slightly different text than your teammates if you try to pick him as the culprit, basically saying that he's more likely than the others to be it. But the others never seem to think his disappearance happened in rather sketchy circumstances.

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* From the Investigation Team's point of view, Teddie just up and banishes vanishes into thin air after [[spoiler:Nanako's "death".]] Why do they not think that's suspicious? He even gets a slightly different text than from your teammates if you try to pick him as the culprit, basically saying that he's more likely than the others to be it. But the others never seem to think his disappearance happened in rather sketchy circumstances.
29th Sep '17 5:35:56 AM wootzits
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[[folder:Teddie in December]]
* From the Investigation Team's point of view, Teddie just up and banishes into thin air after [[spoiler:Nanako's "death".]] Why do they not think that's suspicious? He even gets a slightly different text than your teammates if you try to pick him as the culprit, basically saying that he's more likely than the others to be it. But the others never seem to think his disappearance happened in rather sketchy circumstances.
[[/folder]]
22nd Sep '17 6:49:44 PM jamescamera
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** I had a specific problem with Yukiko's line too. I don't mind a character saying such a thing, if it's actually portrayed as them having said something toxic, but as you said, it isn't. I don't know if it's supposed to be inferred that you're meant to be agreeing with the Investigation Team, but there is a definite problem with how the story tries to present it's point. It's presented as an extremely black and white story a lot of the time, so when there are morally ambiguous grey areas it can be difficult to disconnect from "these guys are good and are always doing what's right" and "this guy is bad and always doing what's wrong". As you said as well, the purposeful black and white nature of Persona 4's story is even brought up in interviews for ''VideoGame/Persona5'', where they stated they wanted to make that game's story more morally ambiguous.
22nd Sep '17 6:36:17 PM jamescamera
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*** Still doesn't explain why that one scene before the fight handled it like crap. Yukiko's line about how Adachi should expect people to not understand him if he is scared to die while still hating being alive is especially bad. Since this is something a lot of people genuinely feel, and having it slapped away in a single line by her, as though she's in the right for saying it, can be downright toxic.
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