History Headscratchers / PaperMario

20th Jun '18 11:20:56 AM sugaricequeen
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[[/folder]]

[[folder: Rescuing Skolar]]
* Lady Bow uses a captive Skolar as leverage to convince Mario to help the Boos by defeating Tubba Blubba, using the reasoning that he would've had to fight Tubba Blubba anyway to rescue Skolar in the first place...Where is the logic in that, exactly? It's not as if the Boos snuck into Tubba's castle and stole the star spirit from him - Skolar had already escaped the castle and became lost in Forever Forest before the Boos found him. If they hadn't interfered, Mario wouldn't have needed to face Tubba Blubba at all.
20th May '18 2:27:01 AM Kahran042
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* ''Headscratchers/PaperMarioColorSplash''
20th May '18 2:25:44 AM Kahran042
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** The cloud monsters may have the power to alter their density.
24th Apr '18 8:46:35 AM chasemaddigan
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* ''Headscratchers/PaperMarioTheThousandYearDoor''



[[folder:Luigi in the audience]]

* You can find Luigi in Rogueport with a new chapter of his own adventure (and a partner to prove it) every time you return with a crystal star. Then why can he sometimes be seen in the audience of your battles? Isn't he supposed to be off on his own adventure?
** GameplayAndStorySegregation.
** Cosplay? Or perhaps Luigi's watching in between boat trips?
** He's in the final boss battle if I'm not mistaken.
** Wasn't his adventure over with at that point?

[[/folder]]



[[folder:Rogueport Crystal Star]]

* If the Crystal Star from the X-Naut Base was originally found in Rougeport, why did it go to Fahr Outpost in the final battle?
** It (or rather, the game designers) didn't want the Bob-Ombs to feel left out, maybe?
** They might have been going to all the nearby towns. Because Rogueport was literally right on top of where the battle was taking place, there might have been no need for a Crystal Star to stop there.
** Also, sadly no one in Rogueport except Merlon, Zess T. and Luigi like Mario, so they wouldn't support him even if it meant living in shadow.
** Podley likes him. Merlee and Merluvlee like him. Don Pianta and his boys like him. Frankie and Francesca like him. All four shopkeepers like him. Lahla likes him. The sailors by the docks like him. [[spoiler: The man you can rescue from the pit of 100 trials]] likes him, and so does his son (assuming you complete their sidequest). The innkeeper likes him. Toadsworth likes him. Dazzle and the Trouble Center guy at least appreciate him. I think it's more likely that the Shadow Queen's power was at its height in and around Rogueport, so the Star had to leave for Fahr Outpost in order to be able to absorb the [[ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve hopes and good vibes]] it needed.
** Podley doesn't necessarily like Mario, given how little the two interact. Not once in the game do you ''have'' to meet with Merlee and Merluvlee. The shopkeepers, Dazzle, the innkeeper, and the Trouble Center are also optional, and the sailors at the docks are probably represented by the Sapphire Star that traveled to Keelhaul Key.
** Then maybe we needn't be so cynical regarding the residents of Rogueport; perhaps it has nothing to do with who likes him. The Crystal Stars, like the Magical Map (probably because of the former), "know" where you ended up getting them. The last one you got was on the moon, but since it's populated entirely by enemies, it went to the next best place: the location responsible for getting you to the moon.

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[[folder:Rogueport Crystal Star]]


[[folder:Twink's knowledge]]

* If Why didn't Twink tell Mario to go to Forever Forest or Flower Fields? Unlike the Crystal Palace, Twink did hear about the other Star from the X-Naut Base was originally found in Rougeport, why did it Spirit locations.
** Seeing as something else told to
go to Fahr Outpost in the final battle?
** It (or rather, the game designers) didn't want the Bob-Ombs to feel left out, maybe?
** They might have been going to all the nearby towns. Because Rogueport was literally right on top of where the battle was taking place,
there might and he did, I just figure Twink did come by to tell him... but saw he was already there/going there, and left.
** As for Forever Forest, Peach and Twink had overheard Bowser discussing that the Star Spirit had escaped from Tubba Blubba's castle; they may just
have been no need for a Crystal figured Skolar would be able to find his own way back to Star to stop there.
** Also, sadly no one in Rogueport except Merlon, Zess T.
Haven, and Luigi like Mario, so couldn't have really foreseen that he would be recaptured by the Boos and that Mario would have to fight Tubba Blubba anyway. And even after they did go and search for clues, all they managed to find out was that Tubba Blubba is invincible and ''might'' have a secret that ''might'' be his only weakness, which wouldn't support him even help Mario in the slightest, really, if it meant living in shadow.
** Podley likes
Twink went to tell him. Merlee and Merluvlee like him. Don Pianta and his boys like him. Frankie and Francesca like him. All four shopkeepers like him. Lahla likes him. The sailors by the docks like him. [[spoiler: The man you can rescue from the pit of 100 trials]] likes him, and so does his son (assuming you complete their sidequest). The innkeeper likes him. Toadsworth likes him. Dazzle and the Trouble Center guy at least appreciate him. I think it's more likely that the Shadow Queen's power was at its height in and around Rogueport, so "Oh, hey, Mario! I've got news on the Star had to leave for Fahr Outpost in order Spirits! Well...I don't know where the next one is, and the guy who ''used'' to be able to absorb guarding it is invincible. Hope this helps!"
** Same goes for
the [[ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve hopes and good vibes]] it needed.
** Podley
final Star Spirit; its only known location is in the far north, but even Twink doesn't necessarily like Mario, given how little the two interact. Not once in the game do you ''have'' to meet with Merlee and Merluvlee. The shopkeepers, Dazzle, the innkeeper, and the Trouble Center are also optional, and the sailors at the docks are probably represented by the Sapphire Star that traveled to Keelhaul Key.
** Then maybe we needn't be so cynical regarding the residents of Rogueport; perhaps it has nothing to do with who likes him. The Crystal Stars, like the Magical Map (probably because of the former), "know"
know where you ended up getting them. The last one you got was on the moon, but since it's populated entirely by enemies, it went to the next best place: the location responsible for getting you to the moon.
is.



[[folder:Vivian's knowledge]]

* So if Vivian joined Mario's party during the middle of the game, why didn't she tell them that her sisters were working for a demon that wanted to take over Peach's body? Also, the Shadow Queen seemed forgetful about Vivian's presence and made no mention of Doopliss taking her place.
** Maybe Vivian (And maybe even Marilyn) were unaware of Beldam's plan to revive the Shadow Queen. Vivian (And as said, maybe Marilyn) probably thought that they were just working to serve Grodus.
** Although their ages aren't clear, Beldam is statedly the oldest of the Sirens. It's entirely possible that Beldam was alive when the Queen was sealed 1000 years ago, but (at least) Vivian wasn't alive then, or was too young to be able to remember. Or maybe Beldam just never told Vivian about their real plans because she thought she was too stupid and would screw it up.
** Actually you hit the nail right on the head, Vivian was too young to remember Beldam's actions were to revive the Shadow Queen and any of the events concerning her before she was sealed away. If you enter the room in the Palace of Shadow before the fight with Grodus and have her as your current partner out on the field she'll comment on how familiar the place kind of is to her, meaning she only vaguely remembers that far back but not far enough back to remember as much as sisters do.
** Also have to question why she didn't bother telling Mario and Co. that the X-Naut base and final Crystal Star was on the moon.
** Or better yet, the secret teleporter.
** Well the transporter was locked anyway, so it wouldn't have done good.
** Shadow Sirens don't need teleporters, so no reason to know about it. As for it being on the moon, she just went where ever Beldam went without knowing where that was.
** Albeit begrudgingly, Beldam was a really bad sister, so she wouldn't spill anything except to Mario.

to:

[[folder:Vivian's knowledge]]

[[folder:Star Rod and fire breath]]

* So if Vivian joined Mario's party during In the middle of the first game, when you fight Bowser, he uses the Star Rod and becomes invincible... but with his fire breath attack, why didn't she tell them did he need the Star Rod in the first place? He could have likely killed you considering that her sisters were working he had to have at least 10 HP. (it's [[BigBad Bowser,]] after all)
** Well, there's NoKillLikeOverkill, especially when it's against a nemesis who's been wrecking all of your awesome plans
for a demon that wanted to take over Peach's body? Also, the Shadow Queen seemed forgetful about Vivian's presence and made no last who knows how long.
** Not to
mention of Doopliss taking her place.
** Maybe Vivian (And maybe
you can power up your weakling enemies like Goombas, Puffs, and even Marilyn) were unaware of Beldam's plan to revive the Shadow Queen. Vivian (And as said, maybe Marilyn) probably thought that they were just working to serve Grodus.
** Although their ages aren't clear, Beldam is statedly the oldest of the Sirens. It's entirely possible that Beldam was alive when the Queen was sealed 1000 years ago, but (at least) Vivian wasn't alive then, or was too young to be able to remember. Or maybe Beldam just never told Vivian about their real plans because she thought she was too stupid and would screw it up.
** Actually you hit the nail right on the head, Vivian was too young to remember Beldam's actions were to revive the Shadow Queen and any of the events concerning her before she was sealed away. If you enter the room in the Palace of Shadow before the fight with Grodus and have her as your current partner out on the field she'll comment on how familiar the place kind of is to her, meaning she only vaguely remembers that far back but not far enough back to remember as much as sisters do.
** Also have to question why she didn't bother telling Mario and Co. that the X-Naut base and final Crystal Star was on the moon.
** Or better yet, the secret teleporter.
** Well the transporter was locked anyway, so it wouldn't have done good.
** Shadow Sirens don't need teleporters, so no reason to know about it. As for it being on the moon, she just went where ever Beldam went without knowing where that was.
** Albeit begrudgingly, Beldam was a really bad sister, so she wouldn't spill anything except to Mario.
those crazy Shy Guys.



[[folder:Vivian's fire weakness]]

* Why is Vivian burned by fire? I can get not being able to punch spikes, but you'd think a Fire Mage would have a Ring of Fire Protection or something...
** Fire Mage or not, she's still made out paper.
** Fire works on everything except for the Embers and Chomps.

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[[folder:Vivian's fire weakness]]

[[folder: The Star Rod]]
* Why is Vivian burned by fire? I can get not being able In the original ''Paper Mario'', it's repeatedly mentioned that the Star Rod has the power to punch spikes, but you'd think a Fire Mage grant ''any wish'' of the one who wields it. Why, then, does Bowser never just say, "Star Rod, I wish that Mario would be struck by a magical bolt of lightning and zapped out of existence!"? He spends the entire game with the rod in his castle just waiting for Mario to gather enough strength to face him and doesn't seem upset at letting his loyal minions have a Ring go at him in the meantime, so why not just get rid of Fire Protection or something...
him the easy way?
** Fire Mage or not, she's Because the easy way isn't really as satisfying as defeating him himself using his newfound power. Mario and Bowser have been enemies for years, after all.
** Perhaps the Rod is limited by ThouShaltNotKill, not unlike Disney/{{Aladdin}}'s Genie?
** No, it can definitely kill people. Two of Bowser's moves in the final battle involve using the rod to summon lightning and a wave of energy - I've never seen them do it, but I'd imagine those would
still made kill you if your health is low enough.
*** Perhaps there's a difference between boosting his attack so it's more likely to kill Mario if it connects and just killing him outright regardless of Heart Points. (Not that we ever have a scene with the Rod like in ''Aladdin'' that spells
out paper.
its limitations, so who knows.)
*** [[OffOnATechnicality "Star Rod, I wish that Mario would be struck by a magical bolt of lightning and banished to the farthest reaches of the Shiverburn Galaxy, never to bother me or disrupt my awesome plans ever again!"]]
** Fire works on everything except I've always personally suspected that Bowser is at least subconsciously aware of the fact his "kidnap the princess, fight the plumber" routine is the only real purpose he has in life, and doesn't go for obvious failsafe plans because he doesn't know what he'd actually do if he won. A lot of fans also subscribe to the Embers theory that it's not even subconscious, Bowser and Chomps.
Mario are on genuinely good terms and this is just how they have fun and keep up appearances. Alternatively, we might need to consider Bowser is just thick.



[[folder:Hooktail's letters]]

* How was Hooktail able to "write letters" to Gloomtail? First of all, Hooktail was in a castle while Gloomtail was locked in the Palace of Shadows. Plus, if any delivery service were to exchange letters, that'd be impossible because the Palace of Shadows was locked behind the Thousand Year Door.
** ...Dragon magic?
** They write the letter and then [[WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipisMagic burn it with their breath.]]
** She wasn't, Gloomtail just blamed someone for her not writing to him on impulse without considering a more reasonable explanation.
** Maybe they have their own Mailbox SP things or something. Mario can't be the only person in the world to use one. They probably come in different models/sizes (they'd have to to accommodate the wide variety of races in the Mario world).
** She probably flies to Gloomtail's mailbox, scarfs some villagers, puts her letter in the mailbox, scarfs some more villagers, and returns to gnaw on their bones.

to:

[[folder:Hooktail's letters]]

[[folder: Sticker power]]
* How In the final battle in ''Sticker Star'', it's said that Mario needs power originating from the Sticker Star in order to counteract Bowser's Royal Sticker. But instead of Kersti having to sacrifice herself, why couldn't he use one or more of the Royal Stickers he already had?
** It
was Hooktail well-established at that point that the royal stickers grant power to people at the cost of their sanity and most of their higher brain function. No matter how badass Mario is, nobody had any reason to believe he'd be immune to their corrupting properties, and Mario getting whacked out on sticker power is a much bigger threat than Bowser could ever be. Conversely, a lot of the game's humor was based on lampshading how by-the-numbers the game was, and even if they didn't make a joke about it directly there was a definite air of "This is the final boss so I have to be dramatic, but we all know I'm gonna be fine by the time the credits roll" to it.
** Going off of your first point, as I do understand the second, why doesn't Kersti's power cause Mario to go nuts, then? If her shiny power is strong enough to let Mario match Bowser and his Royal Sticker's, how is he still
able to "write letters" to Gloomtail? First of all, Hooktail was in a castle while Gloomtail was locked in control it? And why does it go away after the Palace of Shadows. Plus, if any delivery service were to exchange letters, that'd be impossible because the Palace of Shadows was locked behind the Thousand Year Door.
** ...Dragon magic?
** They write the letter and then [[WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipisMagic burn it with their breath.]]
** She wasn't, Gloomtail just blamed someone for her not writing to him on impulse without considering a more reasonable explanation.
** Maybe they have their own Mailbox SP things or something. Mario can't be the only person in the world to use one. They probably come in different models/sizes (they'd have to to accommodate the wide variety of races in the Mario world).
** She probably flies to Gloomtail's mailbox, scarfs some villagers, puts her letter in the mailbox, scarfs some more villagers, and returns to gnaw on their bones.
battle is over?



[[folder:Twink's knowledge]]

* Why didn't Twink tell Mario to go to Forever Forest or Flower Fields? Unlike the Crystal Palace, Twink did hear about the other Star Spirit locations.
** Seeing as something else told to go there and he did, I just figure Twink did come by to tell him... but saw he was already there/going there, and left.
** As for Forever Forest, Peach and Twink had overheard Bowser discussing that the Star Spirit had escaped from Tubba Blubba's castle; they may just have figured Skolar would be able to find his own way back to Star Haven, and couldn't have really foreseen that he would be recaptured by the Boos and that Mario would have to fight Tubba Blubba anyway. And even after they did go and search for clues, all they managed to find out was that Tubba Blubba is invincible and ''might'' have a secret that ''might'' be his only weakness, which wouldn't help Mario in the slightest, really, if Twink went to tell him. "Oh, hey, Mario! I've got news on the Star Spirits! Well...I don't know where the next one is, and the guy who ''used'' to be guarding it is invincible. Hope this helps!"
** Same goes for the final Star Spirit; its only known location is in the far north, but even Twink doesn't know where it is.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Nitro Honey Syrup explosion]]

* In Chapter 6 of the second game, the rat businessman on the Excess Express mentions that his stolen product, the Nitro Honey Syrup, is capable of causing an explosive disaster if it's mixed with calcium from a seashell and a bit of gold... I have two questions about this - how would whoever created the product have come to discover the results of such a random combination, and how were the Shadow Sirens also able to discover the same information, considering their plans to use it for Mario's undoing would have required them to have done so?
** Wild speculation, but perhaps this is one case where Vivian actually did mess up. We've already seen an instance of her taking a lost item for herself, so I can imagine her having taken a seashell and some gold (in whatever form) to the company, accidentally dropping them into a vat, and BOOM.
*** What would Vivian be doing at the same place where the rat business man works?
** Or R&D is exceptionally thorough.
*** It was said by the businessrat that the syrup could even resurrect the dead. Even if that was an exaggeration, it was obviously a pretty powerful item, so the creators likely did a LOT of research into its chemical formula. Calcium and gold, despite gold being notoriously nonreactive, could theoretically create this explosion if mixed with the syrup, which the manufacturers probably knew.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Rogueport Crystal Star on the map]]

* A query about the second game... If the Crystal Star (I mean, the actual CRYSTAL Star, the one you get in the X-Naut Fortress) was originally kept with the Magical Map in Rogueport, that means that, normally, the one who found the map and brought it to the Thousand-Year Door would already have that Crystal Star. So why, when Mario's hunting for all of them, does the map reveal that one last, if it was supposed to be the first one he should've gotten?
** Because it's supposed to be a plot twist that [[spoiler:Peach was taken to The Moon,]] just like how it's supposed to be a plot twist that [[spoiler:the legendary treasure is the Shadow Queen.]]
** All part of Grodus's plan, which came to fruition after Chapter 6.
** Less meta, the map could have selected the star that was closest ''at the time Mario first used it''. In fact, judging by the last few stars, it could have just been selecting the closest one period. Consider the locations:
*** Petalburg could easily be only kilometers from Rogueport itself.
*** The Boggly Woods also could be relatively close.
*** Glitzville can only be reached by blimp, yes, but only because of its altitude: Kammy implies that it is a day trip.
*** Twilight Town could be farther away, considering how the time of day changes significantly between there and Rogueport.
*** Keelhaul Key is several days voyage by sail, though this may not be a direct route.
*** Poshley Heights is ''at least'' two full days away from Rogueport by train, possibly as many as two and a half, depending on the times of departure and arrival and how long Mario took to lower the bridge at the abandoned station: Even at 20 km/hr, that is at least 960 km.
*** Finally, the moon is, you know, [[ShapedLikeItself the moon]], and is almost certainly farther from any location on its planet than any other location on the planet.
*** Perhaps the Crystal Stars and Map analyzed the situation and ordered the locations by partner and equipment needs, so they won't send Mario to a place where he'll need the Ultra Boots before he goes to the place that has them, or to a place that requires Koops' shell ability before he joins the party, and so on.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Noose in Rogueport]]

* A bit of Fridge Logic/Fridge Horror - Who would the noose in Rogueport even be used on, when a majority of the population are WaddlingHead Goombas?
** Bandits? Toads? Koopas? Craws? Piantas? ...Anthropomorphic snails? The rest of the populace might be waddling heads (Bob-Ombs, Squeeks) or things that float (Boos, Lakitus), but there's no real shortage of kinds of characters it might ''theoretically'' have been used on, though what sorts of crimes were deemed to warrant it...
** What would they even use that noose for, anyway? Even Rogueport doesn't seem like such a nasty place that they would perform public hangings in the central square.
** I think the noose is there because it symbolizes that Rogueport is not as nice as the Mushroom Kingdom and it's a sign that this game is DarkerAndEdgier than the typical Mario game.
** It was probably there to hang really bad criminals, the first of which was probably the witch because they used to do that in the 17th century witch trials along with incendiary executions.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Star Rod and fire breath]]

* In the first game, when you fight Bowser, he uses the Star Rod and becomes invincible... but with his fire breath attack, why did he need the Star Rod in the first place? He could have likely killed you considering that he had to have at least 10 HP. (it's [[BigBad Bowser,]] after all)
** Well, there's NoKillLikeOverkill, especially when it's against a nemesis who's been wrecking all of your awesome plans for the last who knows how long.
** Not to mention you can power up your weakling enemies like Goombas, Puffs, and even those crazy Shy Guys.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Shadow teleportation]]

* Why doesn't Vivian ever use her power to teleport through the shadows like her sisters can to help Mario and co. when applicable? She could've traveled back to Rogueport to find someone to help the crew when they were stranded on Keelhaul Key, or went to Poshley Heights and gotten the Garnet Star instantaneously instead of Mario having to take the train. (I know the last one wouldn't have mattered since it was a fake, but she could've ''tried''.)
** Keelhaul Key is stated in game to have very turbulent waters surrounding it, which is why you had to seek out Bobbery. And even if another ship were to get close to the island, it would also have been sunk by the Embers.
** There's also a blue pipe, but you need the Ultra Hammer for it.

[[/folder]]

[[folder: X's Abilities: A Primer]]
In ''The Thousand-Year Door'', the phrase "X's Abilities: A Primer" is stated every time a new partner joins your party (including [[spoiler:Ms. Mowz]], the only optional party member). What does it mean?
* A primer is a type of book, usually intended to teach or introduce something. It's just meant to fit with the whole books/paper theme of the game.
** There's also primers for the abilities, given by Toadette of all people.
** Yes, although those are not exactly referred to as primers, just tutorials, unlike for the partners.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: The Star Rod]]
* In the original ''Paper Mario'', it's repeatedly mentioned that the Star Rod has the power to grant ''any wish'' of the one who wields it. Why, then, does Bowser never just say, "Star Rod, I wish that Mario would be struck by a magical bolt of lightning and zapped out of existence!"? He spends the entire game with the rod in his castle just waiting for Mario to gather enough strength to face him and doesn't seem upset at letting his loyal minions have a go at him in the meantime, so why not just get rid of him the easy way?
** Because the easy way isn't really as satisfying as defeating him himself using his newfound power. Mario and Bowser have been enemies for years, after all.
** Perhaps the Rod is limited by ThouShaltNotKill, not unlike Disney/{{Aladdin}}'s Genie?
** No, it can definitely kill people. Two of Bowser's moves in the final battle involve using the rod to summon lightning and a wave of energy - I've never seen them do it, but I'd imagine those would still kill you if your health is low enough.
*** Perhaps there's a difference between boosting his attack so it's more likely to kill Mario if it connects and just killing him outright regardless of Heart Points. (Not that we ever have a scene with the Rod like in ''Aladdin'' that spells out its limitations, so who knows.)
*** [[OffOnATechnicality "Star Rod, I wish that Mario would be struck by a magical bolt of lightning and banished to the farthest reaches of the Shiverburn Galaxy, never to bother me or disrupt my awesome plans ever again!"]]
** I've always personally suspected that Bowser is at least subconsciously aware of the fact his "kidnap the princess, fight the plumber" routine is the only real purpose he has in life, and doesn't go for obvious failsafe plans because he doesn't know what he'd actually do if he won. A lot of fans also subscribe to the theory that it's not even subconscious, Bowser and Mario are on genuinely good terms and this is just how they have fun and keep up appearances. Alternatively, we might need to consider Bowser is just thick.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: How Did They Switch?]]
* How exactly did Doopliss and Mario switch places? In their first battle, Doopliss is clearly talking while in the "Shadow" Mario form, and even speaks right before he goes down. And then BOOM, as soon as the battle is out, they apparently already traded places? How does that even work considering Doopliss was beaten down as him talking proves.
** I think that the switch takes place right at the end - Doopliss is heard laughing as his HP hits 0, and his next line of dialogue is him saying something along the lines of "Wha...Huh...? You beat me?" I always thought that second line was supposed to be ''Mario'' talking - he's confused as to how he lost when it looked like he'd just won - meaning the switch occurred just after Doopliss's laugh. Now, as for ''how'' or ''why'' it happened right then and there, I'm really not sure how Doopliss's body-stealing magic could've done that. Hopefully someone else can explain that.
** Actually, it (somehow) takes place during the transition from the Stage to the next cutscene. Here's proof (Pay attention to Mario's clothes.): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtWjyK1h_HQ
** That entire plot point is kind of weird, in my opinion - you can't hurt each other when you first confront him as Shadow Mario, and even though the crows are heard saying the magic will stop working if you say his real name, all saying it to him does is let you damage each other again...Again, it's kinda weird.

[[/folder]]

[[folder: The train to Poshley Heights]]
* Why do the Shadow Sirens waste so much time trying to stop Mario from reaching Poshley Heights, with the whole bomb threat, instead of just warping into the sanctum and taking the Garnet Star while he's forced to take the train?
** Maybe Grodus was already setting up his plan to have Mario do the dirty work of gathering the stars for him, and therefore he and the Shadow Sirens weren't seriously trying to stop Mario? That was his logic in not stopping him during the very next chapter (by leaving the last Crystal Star to [[TooIncompetentToOperateABlanket Lord Crump, his "least competent underling")]]. I doubt he had that plan the whole game, but by the point of Mario having all but two of the stars, I see why he would start considering it.
** If that were the case, then '''a.)''' why do the Shadow Sirens take the Crystal Star from the sanctum at all, and '''b.)''' why is Grodus upset that it wound up being a fake? Each Crystal Star Mario collects is his only means of knowing where the next one is, especially since he doesn't know that the X-Nauts already have the last one, and the sirens don't break into the sanctum until Mario gets there anyway, so it's not like they couldn't have waited a few extra minutes for him to grab it.
** Why is everyone assuming the Shadow Sirens' teleportation is instant travel? Even when they disappear into the ground they have to physically move their shadow to where they want to pop up, as evinced by Vivian in battle. Especially taking into consideration the cut parts of Chapter 6 (you were supposed to fight the Sirens at the drawbridge station, and the Smorg was created by Beldam to stop you) one could reasonably assume they were travelling by some other means, if not stowing away on the Excess Express itself.
** Your statement about them having to "move" their shadows to their next location is kind of moot, too, since you can't really do that if you're trying to travel down to Earth's surface from an underground lunar base - there's obviously some sort of teleportation involved, and even if it's not instantaneous, it would still have to be faster than a 3-day train ride. And the things that were cut are irrelevant, too, since they still lead to the question of why the sirens are wasting so much time stopping Mario instead of warping to the sanctum.
** From Beldam's perspective, she doesn't really have to actually stop Mario at any point, as long as somebody opens the door. She just has to act like she's trying.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Rogueport's sorry state]]
* Why is Rogueport stuck in such a dilapidated state? The town has the ruins of an ancient, very prosperous city buried beneath it, all of which seem to be perfectly able to be explored, as well as a huge door rumored to hold a legendary treasure behind it - seems like it would be an archaeologist's dream to go digging through all of that. Yet the reason the town's filled with cutthroats, thieves, and a crime syndicate seems to be that they go to Rogueport because no one ever looks for them there, implying people aren't interested in the treasure and the ancient city.
** I blame the mafia, but honestly most port towns with a lot of cultural mixing end up being populated with poor immigrants trying to eke their way through their overpopulated slums.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Sticker power]]
* In the final battle in ''Sticker Star'', it's said that Mario needs power originating from the Sticker Star in order to counteract Bowser's Royal Sticker. But instead of Kersti having to sacrifice herself, why couldn't he use one or more of the Royal Stickers he already had?
** It was well-established at that point that the royal stickers grant power to people at the cost of their sanity and most of their higher brain function. No matter how badass Mario is, nobody had any reason to believe he'd be immune to their corrupting properties, and Mario getting whacked out on sticker power is a much bigger threat than Bowser could ever be. Conversely, a lot of the game's humor was based on lampshading how by-the-numbers the game was, and even if they didn't make a joke about it directly there was a definite air of "This is the final boss so I have to be dramatic, but we all know I'm gonna be fine by the time the credits roll" to it.
** Going off of your first point, as I do understand the second, why doesn't Kersti's power cause Mario to go nuts, then? If her shiny power is strong enough to let Mario match Bowser and his Royal Sticker's, how is he still able to control it? And why does it go away after the battle is over?
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Train tickets]]
* Did Mario and co. really have to go straight to Don Pianta in order to obtain tickets for the Excess Express? Yes, the tickets are supposed to be available only to the rich and famous, but Mario is a hero of the Mushroom Kingdom and is known to a lot of people, and one of his companions he's travelling with is a supposedly world-famous actress, who was apparently wealthy enough to have her own private abode built in a secluded corner of the Boggly Woods. Even if you wanted to argue that Flurrie is retired or something like that, it still begs the question of why no one ever considers it on option before advising you to ask ''the mafia'' for a favor, right?
** I'm sure there would have been another way without Don Pianta, but because that was the first and apparently easiest opportunity they were presented with, they went with it. As for Mario being famous, that doesn't stop innkeepers and shopkeepers from charging him the same as they do everyone else, so I don't see anyone giving him a discount here.
*** Well, you could say it was an easy opportunity, but recall that this is also the guy who told him not to come back. And your active partner tells Frankly as much. It's probably a good thing the Don was in such a bad way when he came in to ask.
** As it turns out, the train tickets are such a breeze for the don that he offers to let Mario have as many as he likes...It's just weird that Frankly's first hint of advice whenever a problem arises is "Go see if the mafia will do you a favor for this." The way he explains it to them doesn't even sound like he's aware of what the mafia is really like.
*** Except that what you talk to him about tickets for the blimp, he sounds like he ''does'' know, and the only reason he's sending you through this channel is that "word on the street is that all tickets go through Don Pianta".
** The mafia controls everything that goes in and everything that goes out of the town. They decide who gets to be rich and famous.
[[/folder]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder: Keelhaul Key's "Accommodations"]]
* Why do the inn and shop on Keelhaul Key still charge coins during Chapter 5? Not only is Mario their captain, but everyone there is stranded on a deserted island. How can they possibly be charged for things they need to survive? (And even if money is commonly found just by defeating enemies, the crew consists, in total, of Mario and his partners, Four-Eyes, Pa-Patch, Flavio, and a few Toads and Bob-ombs - I can only imagine the first three of them having the skills necessary to battle the enemies on the island.)
** I think you've hit upon it without realizing it. They've still got to make money and get paid, but they can't go running into the jungle and fight the enemies therein, so they leave it to more capable fighters such as Mario, who later come back and (at least theoretically) avail themselves of the Toads' services.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Redemption]]
* How was Beldam able to get off the hook without punishment in at the end of TTYD? ''Super Paper Mario'' showed that its villains had some personality and redeemable qualities throughout the game, but Beldam is a pretty classic case of a WickedWitch. She tricked two groups of people into opening the Thousand-Year Door and resurrecting the Shadow Queen and never displayed any regret at having done so. How is she suddenly all nice and good come the ending? Why does the game imply as though she's already been forgiven?
** Vivian can be quite forgiving and naive, as illustrated throughout the story, and the ending was seemingly in fashion of the "good guys finish the conflict and forgive all loose ends" pattern usually seen in kids' media. On a darker note, Beldam's behavior towards Vivian is actually quite reminiscent of that in abusive relationships: for the abuser to shed crocodile tears and promise to make amends to lure the abusee back into their control (the results are often less than pretty, even when the abuser is sincerely trying). Or perhaps Beldam and everyone else against her know that she won't and/or can't pull anything else in the future, given that the Shadow Queen has already been defeated, the unsealing of presumably being the biggest threat Beldam could ever pose, so she herself feels no need to be a {{Jerkass}} anymore now that she has no more plans for herself, and everyone else is content to forgive and forget, as {{Karma Houdini}}-ish as it sounds.
** Over the course of the game, Vivian [[TookALevelInBadass got a lot stronger]] and was able to beat Beldam multiple times so she won't let anyone push her around any more.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Punio's search]]
* Why didn't Punio go ask Flurrie for help before going all the way to Rogueport? Even if he didn't think she could fight off the X-Nauts on her own, he could've at least asked her to help him find someone else to take them.
** Maybe he thought the way to Flurrie's house was more dangerous for him than attempting to find help if he went towards Rogueport?
20th Apr '18 11:39:26 PM PrincessGwen
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Over the course of the game Vivian [[TookALevelInBadass got a lot stronger]] and was able to beat Beldam multiple times so she won't let anyone push her around any more

to:

** Over the course of the game game, Vivian [[TookALevelInBadass got a lot stronger]] and was able to beat Beldam multiple times so she won't let anyone push her around any moremore.



** Maybe he thought the way to Flurrie's house was more dangerous for him then attempting to find help if he went towards Rogueport?

to:

** Maybe he thought the way to Flurrie's house was more dangerous for him then than attempting to find help if he went towards Rogueport?
19th Apr '18 8:58:14 AM chasemaddigan
Is there an issue? Send a Message


List of ''Paper Mario'' games with their own subpages:
----
[[index]]
* ''Headscratchers/SuperPaperMario''
[[/index]]
----



[[folder:Peach's marriage]]

* So... Is Peach still married to Bowser? I don't recall them getting a divorce or annulment from the end of ''VideoGame/SuperPaperMario''.
** I doubt that the wedding would be considered legitimate, even by [[CloudCuckooLand Mario-verse]] standards. Both the bride and groom were kidnapped, physical force was administered to get both parties to agree to the vows, [[ArsonMurderAndJayWalking and I sincerely doubt that Count Bleck is a minister.]]
** But the wedding was legitimate enough to bring about the apocalypse. Doesn't that count for anything?
** Only on Tv Tropes do you find this kind of sentence, ladies and gentlemen.
** The prophecy called for the two of them to say vows, but that doesn't mean that the vows were legitimate.
** They aren't married anymore because it was "until our games be over", the video game equivalent of "til death do us part". Dimentio ''did'' kinda sorta kill them, which, although it didn't stick, is still probably enough to mean the marriage certificate is now expired.
** And the game DID end. When you beat it.
** But according to Queen Jaydes, Mario and company weren't dead/Game Overed when they arrived in the Underwhere. That's why she was able to send them back. Dimentio sent them to the afterlife without killing them. Besides, Bleck did ask them whether they took the other as their "Lawfully wedded wife/husband". Bleck was also a count, not a minister. As a count, he probably has legal authority within his county. It isn't impossible for a king, a duke, an earl, a count, or even the captain of a ship to marry people, so long as the wedding takes place within their jurisdiction.
*** Isn't the captains-can-minister thing an urban legend?
** So Peach uses her royal authority to declare the marriage null and void. Most cultures really don't consider a marriage unbreakable before they're consummated, which Peach and Bower didn't do. [[{{Squick}} At least, I hope they didn't.]]
** At the very least, no one really considers it legitimate except Bowser (even Peach called it a sham. And she has a point because she was hypnotized into saying "I do" which isn't consensual under ANY circumstances). And the only reason he considers it legitimate is because he has a VillainousCrush on Peach.
** We can all agree that Bowser x Peach will never happen. Blumiere and Timpani on the other hand was legitimate, and it stopped whatever Dimentio left behind.

to:

[[folder:Peach's marriage]]

[[folder:Vivian's knowledge]]

* So... Is Peach still married to Bowser? I don't recall So if Vivian joined Mario's party during the middle of the game, why didn't she tell them getting a divorce or annulment from the end of ''VideoGame/SuperPaperMario''.
** I doubt
that the wedding would be considered legitimate, even by [[CloudCuckooLand Mario-verse]] standards. Both the bride and groom her sisters were kidnapped, physical force was administered to get both parties to agree to the vows, [[ArsonMurderAndJayWalking and I sincerely doubt working for a demon that Count Bleck is a minister.]]
** But
wanted to take over Peach's body? Also, the wedding was legitimate enough to bring Shadow Queen seemed forgetful about Vivian's presence and made no mention of Doopliss taking her place.
** Maybe Vivian (And maybe even Marilyn) were unaware of Beldam's plan to revive
the apocalypse. Doesn't Shadow Queen. Vivian (And as said, maybe Marilyn) probably thought that count for anything?
** Only on Tv Tropes do you find this kind of sentence, ladies and gentlemen.
** The prophecy called for the two of them to say vows, but that doesn't mean that the vows
they were legitimate.
just working to serve Grodus.
** They Although their ages aren't married anymore clear, Beldam is statedly the oldest of the Sirens. It's entirely possible that Beldam was alive when the Queen was sealed 1000 years ago, but (at least) Vivian wasn't alive then, or was too young to be able to remember. Or maybe Beldam just never told Vivian about their real plans because it she thought she was "until our games be over", too stupid and would screw it up.
** Actually you hit
the video game equivalent nail right on the head, Vivian was too young to remember Beldam's actions were to revive the Shadow Queen and any of "til death do us part". Dimentio ''did'' kinda sorta kill them, which, although it the events concerning her before she was sealed away. If you enter the room in the Palace of Shadow before the fight with Grodus and have her as your current partner out on the field she'll comment on how familiar the place kind of is to her, meaning she only vaguely remembers that far back but not far enough back to remember as much as sisters do.
** Also have to question why she
didn't stick, is still probably enough to mean the marriage certificate is now expired.
** And the game DID end. When you beat it.
** But according to Queen Jaydes,
bother telling Mario and company weren't dead/Game Overed when they arrived in Co. that the Underwhere. That's why she X-Naut base and final Crystal Star was able to send them back. Dimentio sent them to on the afterlife without killing them. Besides, Bleck did ask them whether they took moon.
** Or better yet,
the other as their "Lawfully wedded wife/husband". Bleck secret teleporter.
** Well the transporter
was also a count, not a minister. As a count, he probably has legal authority within his county. It isn't impossible for a king, a duke, an earl, a count, or even the captain of a ship to marry people, locked anyway, so long as the wedding takes place within their jurisdiction.
*** Isn't the captains-can-minister thing an urban legend?
it wouldn't have done good.
** So Peach uses her royal authority to declare the marriage null and void. Most cultures really Shadow Sirens don't consider a marriage unbreakable before they're consummated, which Peach and Bower didn't do. [[{{Squick}} At least, I hope they didn't.]]
** At
need teleporters, so no reason to know about it. As for it being on the very least, no one moon, she just went where ever Beldam went without knowing where that was.
** Albeit begrudgingly, Beldam was a
really considers it legitimate bad sister, so she wouldn't spill anything except Bowser (even Peach called it a sham. And she has a point because she was hypnotized into saying "I do" which isn't consensual under ANY circumstances). And the only reason he considers it legitimate is because he has a VillainousCrush on Peach.
** We can all agree that Bowser x Peach will never happen. Blumiere and Timpani on the other hand was legitimate, and it stopped whatever Dimentio left behind.
to Mario.



[[folder:Mario and Luigi in the Underwhere]]

* After replaying the game again, something struck me at the minus wor- I mean, then Underwhere. It's obvious that this and the Overthere are basic the heaven and hell of the Mario-verse. So it makes sense that the Peach is found in the Overthere and that Bowser needs '''his own damn room that has to be locked''' in the Underwhere. But why are Mario and Luigi - who have done numerous heroic deeds - sent to the Underwhere?
** Don't forget Mario was the villain in Donkey Kong Jr. and Luigi "died" as Mr. L, a villain. Peach is pure enough to go to the Overthere without being judged. Mario and Luigi would probably be allowed in the Overthere as well after being judged. Also, Mario had the Pure Heart and assuming Grambi can't bring people or objects back to life, Jaydes was the only way the bros and the Pure Heart could return. From a gameplay standpoint, the Underwhere is easier to navigate and the developers didn't want us exploring the Overthere yet.
*** Also, I believe it's mentioned (or was it implied?) that the Underwhere is more of a waiting room, and there's hell below it. Mario & Luigi needed to be judged, Peach was fine, and Bowser... well, he was only locked in the Underwhere Road because the D-Men couldn't do a thing about him. I doubt they're sending him where Bonechill lived.
*** If they sent him where Bonechill lived, he'd be a frozen lizard.
*** The answer to this is the reason why there's a trope called VideoGameCrueltyPotential - Mario and Luigi may be heroes by name, but they are still known for doing less than heroic things both while under and outside the player's control, like stealing things from [=NPCs=], killing Whackas, and so forth. Whereas Princess Peach is a pure and innocent maiden within the series continuity who only uses force when the well-being of the greater good is at stake.
*** The Underwhere was more along the lines of Hades, in that nearly everyone seemingly goes there when they die, with the especially noble instead being sent to the Overthere (the Elysian Fields) and the especially bad instead being sent to Bonechill's domain (Tartarus) either right away or after they submit to being judged by Jaydes.

to:

[[folder:Mario and Luigi in the Underwhere]]

[[folder:Vivian's fire weakness]]

* After replaying the game again, something struck me at the minus wor- I mean, then Underwhere. It's obvious that this and the Overthere are basic the heaven and hell of the Mario-verse. So it makes sense that the Peach Why is found in the Overthere and that Bowser needs '''his own damn room that has to be locked''' in the Underwhere. But why are Mario and Luigi - who have done numerous heroic deeds - sent to the Underwhere?
** Don't forget Mario was the villain in Donkey Kong Jr. and Luigi "died" as Mr. L, a villain. Peach is pure enough to go to the Overthere without
Vivian burned by fire? I can get not being judged. Mario and Luigi able to punch spikes, but you'd think a Fire Mage would probably be allowed in the Overthere as well after being judged. Also, Mario had the Pure Heart and assuming Grambi can't bring people have a Ring of Fire Protection or objects back to life, Jaydes was the only way the bros and the Pure Heart could return. From a gameplay standpoint, the Underwhere is easier to navigate and the developers didn't want us exploring the Overthere yet.
*** Also, I believe it's mentioned (or was it implied?) that the Underwhere is more of a waiting room, and there's hell below it. Mario & Luigi needed to be judged, Peach was fine, and Bowser... well, he was only locked in the Underwhere Road because the D-Men couldn't do a thing about him. I doubt they're sending him where Bonechill lived.
*** If they sent him where Bonechill lived, he'd be a frozen lizard.
*** The answer to this is the reason why there's a trope called VideoGameCrueltyPotential - Mario and Luigi may be heroes by name, but they are
something...
** Fire Mage or not, she's
still known made out paper.
** Fire works on everything except
for doing less than heroic things both while under the Embers and outside the player's control, like stealing things from [=NPCs=], killing Whackas, and so forth. Whereas Princess Peach is a pure and innocent maiden within the series continuity who only uses force when the well-being of the greater good is at stake.
*** The Underwhere was more along the lines of Hades, in that nearly everyone seemingly goes there when they die, with the especially noble instead being sent to the Overthere (the Elysian Fields) and the especially bad instead being sent to Bonechill's domain (Tartarus) either right away or after they submit to being judged by Jaydes.
Chomps.



[[folder:Space]]

* Okay, so hurtling through space via cannon, then spending time walking on the moon is no problem, but if you're going to bob gently though space, you need a fishbowl at minimum. ...Huh?
** NegativeContinuity.
** BatmanCanBreatheInSpace [[RuleOfCool when he damn well needs to]].
** Maybe there's air on the moon. I know [=OUR=] moon doesn't have any real atmosphere but that doesn't mean this moon can't have eough air to support a portly plumber for an hour.
** It might be that the Crystal Stars allowed Mario to breathe in space...
** Personally, I always thought that Mario-verse physics worked sort of like gravity does in the Looney Tunes world (where it doesn't take effect until someone notices it). Remember, in the opening to Chapter 4, Mario/Peach/Bowser don't react at all until Tippi points out that they're in space, at which point they go "!" and start flailing their arms around. It's very possible that Mario/Peach/Bowser/Luigi don't actually need to breathe, but think they do, and will panic if they realize they aren't. Remember, none of them have any trouble breathing underwater in this game, either, and if the ''Galaxy'' games are anything to go by, space wouldn't give them difficulties either. I always figured that the fishbowl resolved their problem largely because they were convinced it would, and since they didn't have any real problem in the first place, it worked just fine.
** Just a minor note, but in the ''Galaxy'' games, Mario/Luigi has a magical star child hiding beneath his hat who gives him the power to perform a spinning maneuver and fly through space like a comet. I always assumed Luma just granted him the power to breath outside the atmospheres of the various planets he visited.
** For that matter, don't forget that the various levels in SPM and the moon in TTYD all take place in different dimensions. The laws of physics could differ wildly between them.
** If you use Goombella to tattle the very first room in the X-Naut Fortress (the Escalator room) she lampshades it.
** "Who knew there'd be such a weird building on the moon... It's kind of crazy, actually. I mean, it's got a big glass dome to keep all of the air from leaking out......What's that? Yeah, now that you mention it, I guess we were OK out there with no air to breathe......... Yeah I'd rather not think about that too much, I guess. Yeah, let's change the subject." were her exact words.

to:

[[folder:Space]]

[[folder:Hooktail's letters]]

* Okay, so hurtling through space via cannon, How was Hooktail able to "write letters" to Gloomtail? First of all, Hooktail was in a castle while Gloomtail was locked in the Palace of Shadows. Plus, if any delivery service were to exchange letters, that'd be impossible because the Palace of Shadows was locked behind the Thousand Year Door.
** ...Dragon magic?
** They write the letter and
then spending time walking [[WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipisMagic burn it with their breath.]]
** She wasn't, Gloomtail just blamed someone for her not writing to him
on the moon is no problem, but if you're going to bob gently though space, you need impulse without considering a fishbowl at minimum. ...Huh?
** NegativeContinuity.
** BatmanCanBreatheInSpace [[RuleOfCool when he damn well needs to]].
more reasonable explanation.
** Maybe there's air on the moon. I know [=OUR=] moon doesn't they have any real atmosphere but that doesn't mean this moon their own Mailbox SP things or something. Mario can't have eough air to support a portly plumber for an hour.
** It might
be that the Crystal Stars allowed Mario to breathe in space...
** Personally, I always thought that Mario-verse physics worked sort of like gravity does
only person in the Looney Tunes world (where it doesn't take effect until someone notices it). Remember, in the opening to Chapter 4, Mario/Peach/Bowser don't react at all until Tippi points out that they're in space, at which point they go "!" and start flailing their arms around. It's very possible that Mario/Peach/Bowser/Luigi don't actually need to breathe, but think they do, and will panic if they realize they aren't. Remember, none of them have any trouble breathing underwater in this game, either, and if the ''Galaxy'' games are anything to go by, space wouldn't give them difficulties either. I always figured that the fishbowl resolved their problem largely because they were convinced it would, and since they didn't have any real problem in the first place, it worked just fine.
** Just a minor note, but in the ''Galaxy'' games, Mario/Luigi has a magical star child hiding beneath his hat who gives him the power to perform a spinning maneuver and fly through space like a comet. I always assumed Luma just granted him the power to breath outside the atmospheres of the various planets he visited.
** For that matter, don't forget that the various levels in SPM and the moon in TTYD all take place
use one. They probably come in different dimensions. The laws of physics could differ wildly between them.
** If you use Goombella
models/sizes (they'd have to tattle to accommodate the very first room wide variety of races in the X-Naut Fortress (the Escalator room) she lampshades it.
Mario world).
** "Who knew there'd be such a weird building on She probably flies to Gloomtail's mailbox, scarfs some villagers, puts her letter in the moon... It's kind of crazy, actually. I mean, it's got a big glass dome mailbox, scarfs some more villagers, and returns to keep all of the air from leaking out......What's that? Yeah, now that you mention it, I guess we were OK out there with no air to breathe......... Yeah I'd rather not think about that too much, I guess. Yeah, let's change the subject." were her exact words.
gnaw on their bones.



[[folder:Vivian's knowledge]]

* So if Vivian joined Mario's party during the middle of the game, why didn't she tell them that her sisters were working for a demon that wanted to take over Peach's body? Also, the Shadow Queen seemed forgetful about Vivian's presence and made no mention of Doopliss taking her place.
** Maybe Vivian (And maybe even Marilyn) were unaware of Beldam's plan to revive the Shadow Queen. Vivian (And as said, maybe Marilyn) probably thought that they were just working to serve Grodus.
** Although their ages aren't clear, Beldam is statedly the oldest of the Sirens. It's entirely possible that Beldam was alive when the Queen was sealed 1000 years ago, but (at least) Vivian wasn't alive then, or was too young to be able to remember. Or maybe Beldam just never told Vivian about their real plans because she thought she was too stupid and would screw it up.
** Actually you hit the nail right on the head, Vivian was too young to remember Beldam's actions were to revive the Shadow Queen and any of the events concerning her before she was sealed away. If you enter the room in the Palace of Shadow before the fight with Grodus and have her as your current partner out on the field she'll comment on how familiar the place kind of is to her, meaning she only vaguely remembers that far back but not far enough back to remember as much as sisters do.
** Also have to question why she didn't bother telling Mario and Co. that the X-Naut base and final Crystal Star was on the moon.
** Or better yet, the secret teleporter.
** Well the transporter was locked anyway, so it wouldn't have done good.
** Shadow Sirens don't need teleporters, so no reason to know about it. As for it being on the moon, she just went where ever Beldam went without knowing where that was.
** Albeit begrudgingly, Beldam was a really bad sister, so she wouldn't spill anything except to Mario.

to:

[[folder:Vivian's [[folder:Twink's knowledge]]

* So if Vivian joined Mario's party during the middle of the game, why Why didn't she Twink tell them that her sisters were working for a demon that wanted Mario to take over Peach's body? Also, go to Forever Forest or Flower Fields? Unlike the Shadow Queen seemed forgetful Crystal Palace, Twink did hear about Vivian's presence the other Star Spirit locations.
** Seeing as something else told to go there
and made no mention of Doopliss taking her place.
he did, I just figure Twink did come by to tell him... but saw he was already there/going there, and left.
** Maybe Vivian (And maybe even Marilyn) were unaware of Beldam's plan to revive the Shadow Queen. Vivian (And as said, maybe Marilyn) probably thought As for Forever Forest, Peach and Twink had overheard Bowser discussing that the Star Spirit had escaped from Tubba Blubba's castle; they were may just working to serve Grodus.
** Although their ages aren't clear, Beldam is statedly the oldest of the Sirens. It's entirely possible that Beldam was alive when the Queen was sealed 1000 years ago, but (at least) Vivian wasn't alive then, or was too young to
have figured Skolar would be able to remember. Or maybe Beldam just never told Vivian about their real plans because she thought she was too stupid and would screw it up.
** Actually you hit the nail right on the head, Vivian was too young to remember Beldam's actions were to revive the Shadow Queen and any of the events concerning her before she was sealed away. If you enter the room in the Palace of Shadow before the fight with Grodus and have her as your current partner out on the field she'll comment on how familiar the place kind of is to her, meaning she only vaguely remembers that far back but not far enough
find his own way back to remember as much as sisters do.
** Also
Star Haven, and couldn't have really foreseen that he would be recaptured by the Boos and that Mario would have to question why she didn't bother telling Mario fight Tubba Blubba anyway. And even after they did go and Co. search for clues, all they managed to find out was that the X-Naut base Tubba Blubba is invincible and final Crystal Star was on the moon.
** Or better yet, the
''might'' have a secret teleporter.
** Well the transporter was locked anyway, so it
that ''might'' be his only weakness, which wouldn't have done good.
** Shadow Sirens
help Mario in the slightest, really, if Twink went to tell him. "Oh, hey, Mario! I've got news on the Star Spirits! Well...I don't need teleporters, so no reason to know about it. As for it being on the moon, she just went where ever Beldam went without knowing the next one is, and the guy who ''used'' to be guarding it is invincible. Hope this helps!"
** Same goes for the final Star Spirit; its only known location is in the far north, but even Twink doesn't know
where that was.
** Albeit begrudgingly, Beldam was a really bad sister, so she wouldn't spill anything except to Mario.
it is.



[[folder:Vivian's fire weakness]]

* Why is Vivian burned by fire? I can get not being able to punch spikes, but you'd think a Fire Mage would have a Ring of Fire Protection or something...
** Fire Mage or not, she's still made out paper.
** Fire works on everything except for the Embers and Chomps.

to:

[[folder:Vivian's fire weakness]]

[[folder:Nitro Honey Syrup explosion]]

* Why In Chapter 6 of the second game, the rat businessman on the Excess Express mentions that his stolen product, the Nitro Honey Syrup, is Vivian burned by fire? capable of causing an explosive disaster if it's mixed with calcium from a seashell and a bit of gold... I can get not being have two questions about this - how would whoever created the product have come to discover the results of such a random combination, and how were the Shadow Sirens also able to punch spikes, but you'd think a Fire Mage discover the same information, considering their plans to use it for Mario's undoing would have a Ring required them to have done so?
** Wild speculation, but perhaps this is one case where Vivian actually did mess up. We've already seen an instance
of Fire Protection or something...
** Fire Mage or not, she's still made out paper.
** Fire works on everything except
her taking a lost item for herself, so I can imagine her having taken a seashell and some gold (in whatever form) to the Embers company, accidentally dropping them into a vat, and Chomps.
BOOM.
*** What would Vivian be doing at the same place where the rat business man works?
** Or R&D is exceptionally thorough.
*** It was said by the businessrat that the syrup could even resurrect the dead. Even if that was an exaggeration, it was obviously a pretty powerful item, so the creators likely did a LOT of research into its chemical formula. Calcium and gold, despite gold being notoriously nonreactive, could theoretically create this explosion if mixed with the syrup, which the manufacturers probably knew.



[[folder:Hooktail's letters]]

* How was Hooktail able to "write letters" to Gloomtail? First of all, Hooktail was in a castle while Gloomtail was locked in the Palace of Shadows. Plus, if any delivery service were to exchange letters, that'd be impossible because the Palace of Shadows was locked behind the Thousand Year Door.
** ...Dragon magic?
** They write the letter and then [[WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipisMagic burn it with their breath.]]
** She wasn't, Gloomtail just blamed someone for her not writing to him on impulse without considering a more reasonable explanation.
** Maybe they have their own Mailbox SP things or something. Mario can't be the only person in the world to use one. They probably come in different models/sizes (they'd have to to accommodate the wide variety of races in the Mario world).
** She probably flies to Gloomtail's mailbox, scarfs some villagers, puts her letter in the mailbox, scarfs some more villagers, and returns to gnaw on their bones.

to:

[[folder:Hooktail's letters]]

[[folder:Rogueport Crystal Star on the map]]

* How was Hooktail able to "write letters" to Gloomtail? First of all, Hooktail was in a castle while Gloomtail was locked A query about the second game... If the Crystal Star (I mean, the actual CRYSTAL Star, the one you get in the Palace of Shadows. Plus, if any delivery service were to exchange letters, that'd be impossible because the Palace of Shadows X-Naut Fortress) was locked behind the Thousand Year Door.
** ...Dragon magic?
** They write the letter and then [[WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipisMagic burn it
originally kept with their breath.the Magical Map in Rogueport, that means that, normally, the one who found the map and brought it to the Thousand-Year Door would already have that Crystal Star. So why, when Mario's hunting for all of them, does the map reveal that one last, if it was supposed to be the first one he should've gotten?
** Because it's supposed to be a plot twist that [[spoiler:Peach was taken to The Moon,]] just like how it's supposed to be a plot twist that [[spoiler:the legendary treasure is the Shadow Queen.
]]
** She wasn't, Gloomtail All part of Grodus's plan, which came to fruition after Chapter 6.
** Less meta, the map could have selected the star that was closest ''at the time Mario first used it''. In fact, judging by the last few stars, it could have
just blamed someone for her not writing to him on impulse without been selecting the closest one period. Consider the locations:
*** Petalburg could easily be only kilometers from Rogueport itself.
*** The Boggly Woods also could be relatively close.
*** Glitzville can only be reached by blimp, yes, but only because of its altitude: Kammy implies that it is a day trip.
*** Twilight Town could be farther away,
considering how the time of day changes significantly between there and Rogueport.
*** Keelhaul Key is several days voyage by sail, though this may not be
a more reasonable explanation.
** Maybe they have their own Mailbox SP things or something.
direct route.
*** Poshley Heights is ''at least'' two full days away from Rogueport by train, possibly as many as two and a half, depending on the times of departure and arrival and how long
Mario can't be took to lower the only person in bridge at the world to use one. They probably come in different models/sizes (they'd have to to accommodate abandoned station: Even at 20 km/hr, that is at least 960 km.
*** Finally,
the wide variety of races in moon is, you know, [[ShapedLikeItself the moon]], and is almost certainly farther from any location on its planet than any other location on the planet.
*** Perhaps the Crystal Stars and Map analyzed the situation and ordered the locations by partner and equipment needs, so they won't send
Mario world).
** She probably flies
to Gloomtail's mailbox, scarfs some villagers, puts her letter in a place where he'll need the mailbox, scarfs some more villagers, Ultra Boots before he goes to the place that has them, or to a place that requires Koops' shell ability before he joins the party, and returns to gnaw on their bones.
so on.



[[folder:Count Bleck and the betrayal]]

* One thing that has always confused me is how [[BigBad Count Bleck]] didn't see [[spoiler: [[TheStarscream Dimentio's]] betrayal]] coming. It's stated that [[TomeofEldritchLore The Dark Prognosticus]] can see the end of wars that were fought over it... So we can either assume he was [[GoMadFromTheRevelation stark, raving mad]] or just didn't care. But his surprise at the end of the game seems to refute this.
** Because the Book wants the EndOfTheWorld and [[spoiler:Dimento's betrayal helps ensure it will happen after Bleck's defeat.]] So it doesn't put it out until needed.
** Also, [[spoiler:Dimentio]] apparently ''wrote'' the damn book in the first place. Obviously, he'd edit himself out.
** I don't believe the Dark Prognosticus actually goes into that much detail with regards to personal identity - for example, it refers only to a "man in red" (Mario) and a "man in green" (Luigi) who will have to stand against each other, while neglecting to mention their names. I believe I remember learning somewhere that the book only stated that a "dark one" would be the one to destroy all worlds, without giving any specifics; Count Bleck was just so heartbroken that he assumed that the "dark one" was him and went along with it, even though it turned out to be Dimentio.
** It was pretty obvious by the aside where Blumiere went bad that he was too insane to be a good planner, Dimentio, on the other hand, was cool and collected.

to:

[[folder:Count Bleck and [[folder:Noose in Rogueport]]

* A bit of Fridge Logic/Fridge Horror - Who would
the betrayal]]

* One thing that has always confused me is how [[BigBad Count Bleck]] didn't see [[spoiler: [[TheStarscream Dimentio's]] betrayal]] coming. It's stated that [[TomeofEldritchLore The Dark Prognosticus]] can see the end of wars that were fought over it... So we can either assume he was [[GoMadFromTheRevelation stark, raving mad]] or just didn't care. But his surprise at the end
noose in Rogueport even be used on, when a majority of the game seems to refute this.
population are WaddlingHead Goombas?
** Because Bandits? Toads? Koopas? Craws? Piantas? ...Anthropomorphic snails? The rest of the Book wants the EndOfTheWorld and [[spoiler:Dimento's betrayal helps ensure populace might be waddling heads (Bob-Ombs, Squeeks) or things that float (Boos, Lakitus), but there's no real shortage of kinds of characters it will happen after Bleck's defeat.]] So it might ''theoretically'' have been used on, though what sorts of crimes were deemed to warrant it...
** What would they even use that noose for, anyway? Even Rogueport
doesn't put it out until needed.
** Also, [[spoiler:Dimentio]] apparently ''wrote''
seem like such a nasty place that they would perform public hangings in the damn book in central square.
** I think the noose is there because it symbolizes that Rogueport is not as nice as the Mushroom Kingdom and it's a sign that this game is DarkerAndEdgier than the typical Mario game.
** It was probably there to hang really bad criminals,
the first place. Obviously, he'd edit himself out.
** I don't believe
of which was probably the Dark Prognosticus actually goes into witch because they used to do that much detail with regards to personal identity - for example, it refers only to a "man in red" (Mario) and a "man in green" (Luigi) who will have to stand against each other, while neglecting to mention their names. I believe I remember learning somewhere that the book only stated that a "dark one" would be the one to destroy all worlds, without giving any specifics; Count Bleck was just so heartbroken that he assumed that the "dark one" was him and went 17th century witch trials along with it, even though it turned out to be Dimentio.
** It was pretty obvious by the aside where Blumiere went bad that he was too insane to be a good planner, Dimentio, on the other hand, was cool and collected.
incendiary executions.



[[folder:Super Paper Mario ending]]

* At the end of the game (huge spoilers ahead, obviously), [[spoiler:Bleck and Tippi renew their vows and from out of nowhere make new Pure Hearts or draw the existing set directly to their location. According to Bleck, all that was necessary for this to happen was mutual love between two people. So does this mean none of the 4 heroes form a pair which mutually loves each other, obvious brotherly love between the Mario Bros. aside? If so, is there really no romance between Mario and Peach (and for ''those'' fans, Peach and Bowser)]]?
** None of the party members declared their love for each other. Bleck and Tippi did. It probably didn't have to feature the saying of vows, but a statement of love, and the acceptance of the love of the other party was likely necessary.
** And also, Peach and Bowser kinda broke the world in the first place. [[SarcasmMode Obviously, the smartest thing to do to fix something]] [[WhenAllYouHaveIsAHammer is to hit it with the same thing you broke it with.]]
** I think it may have had something to do with the devotion Blumiere and Timpani had toward each other. Think about it - he loved her so much, all of the worlds meant nothing to him without her in them... Granted, his remedy of trying to destroy them all isn't a good thing on its own, but it shows that life didn't matter to him without Timpani. If, say, something happened to Luigi, Mario would mourn for him, sure, and would probably be depressed about it for a little bit, but he would (hopefully) eventually learn that it's best for him to move on, to learn to love life as much as he loved his brother.

to:

[[folder:Super Paper Mario ending]]

[[folder:Star Rod and fire breath]]

* At In the end of first game, when you fight Bowser, he uses the game (huge spoilers ahead, obviously), [[spoiler:Bleck Star Rod and Tippi renew their vows and from out of nowhere make new Pure Hearts or draw becomes invincible... but with his fire breath attack, why did he need the existing set directly to their location. According to Bleck, all that was necessary for this to happen was mutual love between two people. So does this mean none of the 4 heroes form a pair which mutually loves each other, obvious brotherly love between the Mario Bros. aside? If so, is there really no romance between Mario and Peach (and for ''those'' fans, Peach and Bowser)]]?
** None of the party members declared their love for each other. Bleck and Tippi did. It probably didn't have to feature the saying of vows, but a statement of love, and the acceptance of the love of the other party was likely necessary.
** And also, Peach and Bowser kinda broke the world
Star Rod in the first place. [[SarcasmMode Obviously, the smartest thing to do to fix something]] [[WhenAllYouHaveIsAHammer is to hit it with the same thing you broke it with.]]
** I think it may
place? He could have had something to do with the devotion Blumiere and Timpani had toward each other. Think about it - he loved her so much, all of the worlds meant nothing to him without her in them... Granted, his remedy of trying to destroy them all isn't a good thing on its own, but it shows likely killed you considering that life didn't matter he had to him without Timpani. If, say, something happened to Luigi, Mario would mourn for him, sure, and would probably be depressed about it for a little bit, but he would (hopefully) eventually learn that have at least 10 HP. (it's [[BigBad Bowser,]] after all)
** Well, there's NoKillLikeOverkill, especially when
it's best against a nemesis who's been wrecking all of your awesome plans for him the last who knows how long.
** Not
to move on, to learn to love life as much as he loved his brother.
mention you can power up your weakling enemies like Goombas, Puffs, and even those crazy Shy Guys.



[[folder:Nastasia and the betrayal]]

* ''VideoGame/SuperPaperMario'' example: At the end of the game, the HandWave for how Mimi and O'Chunks knew where to find Count Bleck is that Nastasia told them beforehand that she expected they'd end up there... so wait. This would mean that Nastasia ''knew'' (at least enough to accurately predict) that [[spoiler: Dimentio was going to betray them and bring about the end of all worlds himself]]. ...So why didn't she DO anything about this herself? Her ONLY known power is the ability to hypnotize people into following her orders absolutely, and even if for some reason she couldn't do this, she could surely ''tell someone what was about to happen''. The bigger problem here, however, is how she knew this to begin with. As far as I can tell, this is never answered or explained.
** Dimentio did blab his whole plan to Mario. Nastasia ''could'' have overheard it, but that begs the question of why she didn't tell it to Bleck. Not only is she incredibly loyal to Bleck but the game made it very clear that Nastasia has feelings for Bleck, so why not inform him of impending treachery? The best answer is she believed that not even the heroes in cahoots with Dimentio could stop Bleck and so gave it no thought. Bleck WAS invincible during the fight until the Pure Hearts intervened so maybe she just thought to herself "Let them try, they will fail since Bleck is invincible." Not a great explanation but still.
** O'Chunks says something like "She knew you'd come here, or rather she FELT you'd come here." I always assumed we were meant to take it the same as things like Tippi knowing that Mario was at the top of the tower after returning from the Underwhere, or when Mario felt that [[spoiler: his friends were ok after falling in the halls of Castle Bleck]] - unexplained hunches/feelings that turn out to be true. True, the other examples are a little easier to justify, but I figured it was meant to fall within the same line of thought.
** Considering that Nastasia seems to have been the only resident of Castle Bleck who was both intelligent ''and'' relatively sane, I think that it's reasonable to assume that she would be the first of the minions to suspect Dimentio's true motives. Because Bleck was [[SanitySlippage not in the best mental state]] at this time, she may have deliberately avoided being the one to warn him directly for fear of invoking a CassandraTruth plot with her crush.
** Maybe it went something like this... When she left Count Bleck to face Mario alone, she decided to go looking for his other minions. She comes across O'Chunks and Mimi, who she learns are alive and well thanks to help and sacrifices from Bowser and Princess Peach, but she can't find Dimentio anywhere, even though she knows he was supposed to dispose of Luigi and Luigi is still alive, as well. Sensing something bad is about to happen, she decides to go and be with the count so she'll be there to help in case it does, and she tells O'Chunks and Mimi that if she doesn't come back alive within a certain amount of time, it means Dimentio has taken over and that they should check for her in Dimension D. Perhaps it went something akin to that.

to:

[[folder:Nastasia and the betrayal]]

[[folder:Shadow teleportation]]

* ''VideoGame/SuperPaperMario'' example: At the end of the game, the HandWave for how Mimi and O'Chunks knew where to find Count Bleck is that Nastasia told them beforehand that she expected they'd end up there... so wait. This would mean that Nastasia ''knew'' (at least enough to accurately predict) that [[spoiler: Dimentio was going to betray them and bring about the end of all worlds himself]]. ...So why didn't she DO anything about this herself? Her ONLY known power is the ability to hypnotize people into following her orders absolutely, and even if for some reason she couldn't do this, she could surely ''tell someone what was about to happen''. The bigger problem here, however, is how she knew this to begin with. As far as I can tell, this is never answered or explained.
** Dimentio did blab his whole plan to Mario. Nastasia ''could'' have overheard it, but that begs the question of why she didn't tell it to Bleck. Not only is she incredibly loyal to Bleck but the game made it very clear that Nastasia has feelings for Bleck, so why not inform him of impending treachery? The best answer is she believed that not even the heroes in cahoots with Dimentio could stop Bleck and so gave it no thought. Bleck WAS invincible during the fight until the Pure Hearts intervened so maybe she just thought to herself "Let them try, they will fail since Bleck is invincible." Not a great explanation but still.
** O'Chunks says something like "She knew you'd come here, or rather she FELT you'd come here." I always assumed we were meant to take it the same as things like Tippi knowing that Mario was at the top of the tower after returning from the Underwhere, or when Mario felt that [[spoiler: his friends were ok after falling in the halls of Castle Bleck]] - unexplained hunches/feelings that turn out to be true. True, the other examples are a little easier to justify, but I figured it was meant to fall within the same line of thought.
** Considering that Nastasia seems to have been the only resident of Castle Bleck who was both intelligent ''and'' relatively sane, I think that it's reasonable to assume that she would be the first of the minions to suspect Dimentio's true motives. Because Bleck was [[SanitySlippage not in the best mental state]] at this time, she may have deliberately avoided being the one to warn him directly for fear of invoking a CassandraTruth plot with her crush.
** Maybe it went something like this... When she left Count Bleck to face Mario alone, she decided to go looking for his other minions. She comes across O'Chunks and Mimi, who she learns are alive and well thanks to help and sacrifices from Bowser and Princess Peach, but she can't find Dimentio anywhere, even though she knows he was supposed to dispose of Luigi and Luigi is still alive, as well. Sensing something bad is about to happen, she decides to go and be with the count so she'll be there to help in case it does, and she tells O'Chunks and Mimi that if she
Why doesn't come Vivian ever use her power to teleport through the shadows like her sisters can to help Mario and co. when applicable? She could've traveled back alive within a certain amount of time, it means Dimentio has taken over and that to Rogueport to find someone to help the crew when they should check for her in Dimension D. Perhaps it were stranded on Keelhaul Key, or went something akin to that.
Poshley Heights and gotten the Garnet Star instantaneously instead of Mario having to take the train. (I know the last one wouldn't have mattered since it was a fake, but she could've ''tried''.)
** Keelhaul Key is stated in game to have very turbulent waters surrounding it, which is why you had to seek out Bobbery. And even if another ship were to get close to the island, it would also have been sunk by the Embers.
** There's also a blue pipe, but you need the Ultra Hammer for it.



[[folder:Transformed Pure Heart]]

* [[spoiler:Luvbi]] got turned into a Pure Heart and was then put into the Heart Pillar to allow access to [[spoiler:Castle Bleck]], right? If so, then what explains [[spoiler:her presence in the Overthere after defeating Super Dimentio]]?
** ThePowerOfLove? After all, [[spoiler:she is the ambiguously angel-like daughter of the rulers of pseudo-Heaven and Underworld, both of whom no doubt would do anything in their power to bring her back if they could, ''and'' at heart is an incredibly magical MacGuffin. ''Something'' in there must have contributed to it.]]
** If you talk to her afterwards, she says something about not remembering how she was brought back.
** If there were a real, in-game reason why she was able to be brought back, I don't think her sacrifice would've seemed like such a big deal had her parents known such a loophole existed. I think it was just that no one could've foreseen such a sacrificial act of love as begin nessecary to stop the Chaos Heart - they all believed the heroes would be able to defeat Count Bleck and stop the Void with time to spare. Thus, Blumiere and Timpani's exchanging of vows and the subsequent burst of power they gave to the Pure Hearts was the one event that no one saw coming, yet it may have been what actually brought Luvbi back.
** I see it as in the end, things were brought back the way they used to be before the marriage (except for the memories that are still there). Which means Peach and Bowser aren't married, Sammer's Kingdom is restored, and the crack is gone. And it's likely Bleck or even Dimentio looked for the Pure Hearts to stall the hero, but they couldn't find them, therefore Luvbi came back.

to:

[[folder:Transformed Pure Heart]]

* [[spoiler:Luvbi]] got turned into a Pure Heart and was then put into
[[folder: X's Abilities: A Primer]]
In ''The Thousand-Year Door'',
the Heart Pillar to allow access to [[spoiler:Castle Bleck]], right? If so, then what explains [[spoiler:her presence in phrase "X's Abilities: A Primer" is stated every time a new partner joins your party (including [[spoiler:Ms. Mowz]], the Overthere after defeating Super Dimentio]]?
** ThePowerOfLove? After all, [[spoiler:she
only optional party member). What does it mean?
* A primer
is a type of book, usually intended to teach or introduce something. It's just meant to fit with the ambiguously angel-like daughter whole books/paper theme of the rulers of pseudo-Heaven and Underworld, both of whom no doubt would do anything in their power to bring her back if they could, ''and'' at heart is an incredibly magical MacGuffin. ''Something'' in there must have contributed to it.]]
game.
** If you talk to her afterwards, she says something about not remembering how she was brought back.
** If there were a real, in-game reason why she was able to be brought back, I don't think her sacrifice would've seemed like such a big deal had her parents known such a loophole existed. I think it was just that no one could've foreseen such a sacrificial act of love as begin nessecary to stop the Chaos Heart - they all believed the heroes would be able to defeat Count Bleck and stop the Void with time to spare. Thus, Blumiere and Timpani's exchanging of vows and the subsequent burst of power they gave to the Pure Hearts was the one event that no one saw coming, yet it may have been what actually brought Luvbi back.
** I see it as in the end, things were brought back the way they used to be before the marriage (except
There's also primers for the memories that abilities, given by Toadette of all people.
** Yes, although those
are still there). Which means Peach and Bowser aren't married, Sammer's Kingdom is restored, and the crack is gone. And it's likely Bleck or even Dimentio looked not exactly referred to as primers, just tutorials, unlike for the Pure Hearts to stall the hero, but they couldn't find them, therefore Luvbi came back.
partners.



[[folder:Captain Gills]]

* In ''Super Paper Mario'', you take Captain Gills and set him free in the canal underneath Flipside and whenever you return to that area, he gets bigger and there are bones in the canal. What's the deal? It also overlaps with FridgeHorror.
** A possible rival for his (unseen) love's affections?
** Fish need to eat, too, you know.
** Maybe he ate Grodus's pets from the previous game.
*** From in between dimensions?

to:

[[folder:Captain Gills]]

[[folder: The Star Rod]]
* In ''Super Paper the original ''Paper Mario'', you take Captain Gills it's repeatedly mentioned that the Star Rod has the power to grant ''any wish'' of the one who wields it. Why, then, does Bowser never just say, "Star Rod, I wish that Mario would be struck by a magical bolt of lightning and set zapped out of existence!"? He spends the entire game with the rod in his castle just waiting for Mario to gather enough strength to face him free and doesn't seem upset at letting his loyal minions have a go at him in the canal underneath Flipside meantime, so why not just get rid of him the easy way?
** Because the easy way isn't really as satisfying as defeating him himself using his newfound power. Mario
and whenever you return to that area, he gets bigger and there are bones Bowser have been enemies for years, after all.
** Perhaps the Rod is limited by ThouShaltNotKill, not unlike Disney/{{Aladdin}}'s Genie?
** No, it can definitely kill people. Two of Bowser's moves
in the canal. What's final battle involve using the deal? It rod to summon lightning and a wave of energy - I've never seen them do it, but I'd imagine those would still kill you if your health is low enough.
*** Perhaps there's a difference between boosting his attack so it's more likely to kill Mario if it connects and just killing him outright regardless of Heart Points. (Not that we ever have a scene with the Rod like in ''Aladdin'' that spells out its limitations, so who knows.)
*** [[OffOnATechnicality "Star Rod, I wish that Mario would be struck by a magical bolt of lightning and banished to the farthest reaches of the Shiverburn Galaxy, never to bother me or disrupt my awesome plans ever again!"]]
** I've always personally suspected that Bowser is at least subconsciously aware of the fact his "kidnap the princess, fight the plumber" routine is the only real purpose he has in life, and doesn't go for obvious failsafe plans because he doesn't know what he'd actually do if he won. A lot of fans
also overlaps with FridgeHorror.
** A possible rival for his (unseen) love's affections?
** Fish
subscribe to the theory that it's not even subconscious, Bowser and Mario are on genuinely good terms and this is just how they have fun and keep up appearances. Alternatively, we might need to eat, too, you know.
** Maybe he ate Grodus's pets from the previous game.
*** From in between dimensions?
consider Bowser is just thick.



[[folder:Cragnon's kingdom]]

* At the end of Super Paper Mario, we see [[spoiler:the land of the Cragnons get reconstructed, despite it never getting explicitly destroyed in the first place. Meanwhile, Sammer's Kingdom, which was definitely destroyed, is never shown being recreated.]] Did the two worlds get their roles switched at some point in development?
** I'm pretty sure you do see Sammer's Kingdom being restored at some point during the ending, and it was during the final battle that the Land of the Cragnons was shown being destroyed.
** If you try to go back to Sammer's Kingdom before the endgame, it will boot you to the World of Nothing.

to:

[[folder:Cragnon's kingdom]]

[[folder: How Did They Switch?]]
* At How exactly did Doopliss and Mario switch places? In their first battle, Doopliss is clearly talking while in the "Shadow" Mario form, and even speaks right before he goes down. And then BOOM, as soon as the battle is out, they apparently already traded places? How does that even work considering Doopliss was beaten down as him talking proves.
** I think that the switch takes place right at
the end - Doopliss is heard laughing as his HP hits 0, and his next line of Super Paper Mario, we see [[spoiler:the land of dialogue is him saying something along the Cragnons get reconstructed, despite lines of "Wha...Huh...? You beat me?" I always thought that second line was supposed to be ''Mario'' talking - he's confused as to how he lost when it never getting explicitly destroyed in looked like he'd just won - meaning the first place. Meanwhile, Sammer's Kingdom, which was definitely destroyed, is never shown being recreated.]] Did the two worlds get their roles switched at some point in development?
**
switch occurred just after Doopliss's laugh. Now, as for ''how'' or ''why'' it happened right then and there, I'm pretty really not sure you do see Sammer's Kingdom being restored at some point how Doopliss's body-stealing magic could've done that. Hopefully someone else can explain that.
** Actually, it (somehow) takes place
during the ending, and it was during transition from the final battle that the Land of the Cragnons was shown being destroyed.
** If you try to go back to Sammer's Kingdom before the endgame, it will boot you
Stage to the World next cutscene. Here's proof (Pay attention to Mario's clothes.): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtWjyK1h_HQ
** That entire plot point is kind
of Nothing.
weird, in my opinion - you can't hurt each other when you first confront him as Shadow Mario, and even though the crows are heard saying the magic will stop working if you say his real name, all saying it to him does is let you damage each other again...Again, it's kinda weird.



[[folder:Twink's knowledge]]

* Why didn't Twink tell Mario to go to Forever Forest or Flower Fields? Unlike the Crystal Palace, Twink did hear about the other Star Spirit locations.
** Seeing as something else told to go there and he did, I just figure Twink did come by to tell him... but saw he was already there/going there, and left.
** As for Forever Forest, Peach and Twink had overheard Bowser discussing that the Star Spirit had escaped from Tubba Blubba's castle; they may just have figured Skolar would be able to find his own way back to Star Haven, and couldn't have really foreseen that he would be recaptured by the Boos and that Mario would have to fight Tubba Blubba anyway. And even after they did go and search for clues, all they managed to find out was that Tubba Blubba is invincible and ''might'' have a secret that ''might'' be his only weakness, which wouldn't help Mario in the slightest, really, if Twink went to tell him. "Oh, hey, Mario! I've got news on the Star Spirits! Well...I don't know where the next one is, and the guy who ''used'' to be guarding it is invincible. Hope this helps!"
** Same goes for the final Star Spirit; its only known location is in the far north, but even Twink doesn't know where it is.

to:

[[folder:Twink's knowledge]]

[[folder: The train to Poshley Heights]]
* Why didn't Twink tell do the Shadow Sirens waste so much time trying to stop Mario from reaching Poshley Heights, with the whole bomb threat, instead of just warping into the sanctum and taking the Garnet Star while he's forced to go take the train?
** Maybe Grodus was already setting up his plan
to Forever Forest or Flower Fields? Unlike have Mario do the dirty work of gathering the stars for him, and therefore he and the Shadow Sirens weren't seriously trying to stop Mario? That was his logic in not stopping him during the very next chapter (by leaving the last Crystal Star to [[TooIncompetentToOperateABlanket Lord Crump, his "least competent underling")]]. I doubt he had that plan the whole game, but by the point of Mario having all but two of the stars, I see why he would start considering it.
** If that were the case, then '''a.)''' why do the Shadow Sirens take
the Crystal Palace, Twink did hear about the other Star Spirit locations.
** Seeing as something else told to go there
from the sanctum at all, and he did, I just figure Twink did come by to tell him... but saw he was already there/going there, and left.
** As for Forever Forest, Peach and Twink had overheard Bowser discussing
'''b.)''' why is Grodus upset that the it wound up being a fake? Each Crystal Star Spirit had escaped from Tubba Blubba's castle; they may just have figured Skolar would be able to find his own way back to Star Haven, and couldn't have really foreseen that he would be recaptured by the Boos and that Mario would have to fight Tubba Blubba anyway. And even after they did go and search for clues, all they managed to find out was that Tubba Blubba collects is invincible and ''might'' have a secret that ''might'' be his only weakness, which wouldn't help Mario in the slightest, really, if Twink went to tell him. "Oh, hey, Mario! I've got news on the Star Spirits! Well...I don't know means of knowing where the next one is, and the guy who ''used'' to be guarding it is invincible. Hope this helps!"
** Same goes for the final Star Spirit; its only known location is in the far north, but even Twink
especially since he doesn't know that the X-Nauts already have the last one, and the sirens don't break into the sanctum until Mario gets there anyway, so it's not like they couldn't have waited a few extra minutes for him to grab it.
** Why is everyone assuming the Shadow Sirens' teleportation is instant travel? Even when they disappear into the ground they have to physically move their shadow to
where they want to pop up, as evinced by Vivian in battle. Especially taking into consideration the cut parts of Chapter 6 (you were supposed to fight the Sirens at the drawbridge station, and the Smorg was created by Beldam to stop you) one could reasonably assume they were travelling by some other means, if not stowing away on the Excess Express itself.
** Your statement about them having to "move" their shadows to their next location is kind of moot, too, since you can't really do that if you're trying to travel down to Earth's surface from an underground lunar base - there's obviously some sort of teleportation involved, and even if it's not instantaneous,
it is.
would still have to be faster than a 3-day train ride. And the things that were cut are irrelevant, too, since they still lead to the question of why the sirens are wasting so much time stopping Mario instead of warping to the sanctum.
** From Beldam's perspective, she doesn't really have to actually stop Mario at any point, as long as somebody opens the door. She just has to act like she's trying.



[[folder:Nitro Honey Syrup explosion]]

* In Chapter 6 of the second game, the rat businessman on the Excess Express mentions that his stolen product, the Nitro Honey Syrup, is capable of causing an explosive disaster if it's mixed with calcium from a seashell and a bit of gold... I have two questions about this - how would whoever created the product have come to discover the results of such a random combination, and how were the Shadow Sirens also able to discover the same information, considering their plans to use it for Mario's undoing would have required them to have done so?
** Wild speculation, but perhaps this is one case where Vivian actually did mess up. We've already seen an instance of her taking a lost item for herself, so I can imagine her having taken a seashell and some gold (in whatever form) to the company, accidentally dropping them into a vat, and BOOM.
*** What would Vivian be doing at the same place where the rat business man works?
** Or R&D is exceptionally thorough.
*** It was said by the businessrat that the syrup could even resurrect the dead. Even if that was an exaggeration, it was obviously a pretty powerful item, so the creators likely did a LOT of research into its chemical formula. Calcium and gold, despite gold being notoriously nonreactive, could theoretically create this explosion if mixed with the syrup, which the manufacturers probably knew.

to:

[[folder:Nitro Honey Syrup explosion]]

[[folder: Rogueport's sorry state]]
* In Chapter 6 of the second game, the rat businessman on the Excess Express mentions that his stolen product, the Nitro Honey Syrup, Why is capable of causing an explosive disaster if it's mixed with calcium from a seashell and a bit of gold... I have two questions about this - how would whoever created the product have come to discover the results of Rogueport stuck in such a random combination, and how were dilapidated state? The town has the Shadow Sirens also ruins of an ancient, very prosperous city buried beneath it, all of which seem to be perfectly able to discover be explored, as well as a huge door rumored to hold a legendary treasure behind it - seems like it would be an archaeologist's dream to go digging through all of that. Yet the same information, considering reason the town's filled with cutthroats, thieves, and a crime syndicate seems to be that they go to Rogueport because no one ever looks for them there, implying people aren't interested in the treasure and the ancient city.
** I blame the mafia, but honestly most port towns with a lot of cultural mixing end up being populated with poor immigrants trying to eke
their plans to use it for Mario's undoing would have required them to have done so?
** Wild speculation, but perhaps this is one case where Vivian actually did mess up. We've already seen an instance of her taking a lost item for herself, so I can imagine her having taken a seashell and some gold (in whatever form) to the company, accidentally dropping them into a vat, and BOOM.
*** What would Vivian be doing at the same place where the rat business man works?
** Or R&D is exceptionally thorough.
*** It was said by the businessrat that the syrup could even resurrect the dead. Even if that was an exaggeration, it was obviously a pretty powerful item, so the creators likely did a LOT of research into its chemical formula. Calcium and gold, despite gold being notoriously nonreactive, could theoretically create this explosion if mixed with the syrup, which the manufacturers probably knew.
way through their overpopulated slums.



[[folder:Rogueport Crystal Star on the map]]

* A query about the second game... If the Crystal Star (I mean, the actual CRYSTAL Star, the one you get in the X-Naut Fortress) was originally kept with the Magical Map in Rogueport, that means that, normally, the one who found the map and brought it to the Thousand-Year Door would already have that Crystal Star. So why, when Mario's hunting for all of them, does the map reveal that one last, if it was supposed to be the first one he should've gotten?
** Because it's supposed to be a plot twist that [[spoiler:Peach was taken to The Moon,]] just like how it's supposed to be a plot twist that [[spoiler:the legendary treasure is the Shadow Queen.]]
** All part of Grodus's plan, which came to fruition after Chapter 6.
** Less meta, the map could have selected the star that was closest ''at the time Mario first used it''. In fact, judging by the last few stars, it could have just been selecting the closest one period. Consider the locations:
*** Petalburg could easily be only kilometers from Rogueport itself.
*** The Boggly Woods also could be relatively close.
*** Glitzville can only be reached by blimp, yes, but only because of its altitude: Kammy implies that it is a day trip.
*** Twilight Town could be farther away, considering how the time of day changes significantly between there and Rogueport.
*** Keelhaul Key is several days voyage by sail, though this may not be a direct route.
*** Poshley Heights is ''at least'' two full days away from Rogueport by train, possibly as many as two and a half, depending on the times of departure and arrival and how long Mario took to lower the bridge at the abandoned station: Even at 20 km/hr, that is at least 960 km.
*** Finally, the moon is, you know, [[ShapedLikeItself the moon]], and is almost certainly farther from any location on its planet than any other location on the planet.
*** Perhaps the Crystal Stars and Map analyzed the situation and ordered the locations by partner and equipment needs, so they won't send Mario to a place where he'll need the Ultra Boots before he goes to the place that has them, or to a place that requires Koops' shell ability before he joins the party, and so on.

to:

[[folder:Rogueport Crystal Star on [[folder: Sticker power]]
* In
the map]]

* A query about the second game... If the Crystal Star (I mean, the actual CRYSTAL Star, the one you get
final battle in the X-Naut Fortress) was originally kept with the Magical Map in Rogueport, that means that, normally, the one who found the map and brought it to the Thousand-Year Door would already have that Crystal Star. So why, when Mario's hunting for all of them, does the map reveal that one last, if it was supposed to be the first one he should've gotten?
** Because
''Sticker Star'', it's supposed to be a plot twist said that [[spoiler:Peach Mario needs power originating from the Sticker Star in order to counteract Bowser's Royal Sticker. But instead of Kersti having to sacrifice herself, why couldn't he use one or more of the Royal Stickers he already had?
** It
was taken to The Moon,]] just like how it's supposed to be a plot twist well-established at that [[spoiler:the legendary treasure point that the royal stickers grant power to people at the cost of their sanity and most of their higher brain function. No matter how badass Mario is, nobody had any reason to believe he'd be immune to their corrupting properties, and Mario getting whacked out on sticker power is a much bigger threat than Bowser could ever be. Conversely, a lot of the game's humor was based on lampshading how by-the-numbers the game was, and even if they didn't make a joke about it directly there was a definite air of "This is the Shadow Queen.]]
** All part of Grodus's plan, which came to fruition after Chapter 6.
** Less meta, the map could
final boss so I have selected the star that was closest ''at to be dramatic, but we all know I'm gonna be fine by the time Mario the credits roll" to it.
** Going off of your
first used it''. In fact, judging by point, as I do understand the last few stars, it could have just been selecting the closest one period. Consider the locations:
*** Petalburg could easily be only kilometers from Rogueport itself.
*** The Boggly Woods also could be relatively close.
*** Glitzville can only be reached by blimp, yes, but only because of its altitude: Kammy implies that it is a day trip.
*** Twilight Town could be farther away, considering how the time of day changes significantly between there and Rogueport.
*** Keelhaul Key is several days voyage by sail, though this may not be a direct route.
*** Poshley Heights is ''at least'' two full days away from Rogueport by train, possibly as many as two and a half, depending on the times of departure and arrival and how long Mario took to lower the bridge at the abandoned station: Even at 20 km/hr, that is at least 960 km.
*** Finally, the moon is, you know, [[ShapedLikeItself the moon]], and is almost certainly farther from any location on its planet than any other location on the planet.
*** Perhaps the Crystal Stars and Map analyzed the situation and ordered the locations by partner and equipment needs, so they won't send
second, why doesn't Kersti's power cause Mario to a place where he'll need go nuts, then? If her shiny power is strong enough to let Mario match Bowser and his Royal Sticker's, how is he still able to control it? And why does it go away after the Ultra Boots before he goes to the place that has them, or to a place that requires Koops' shell ability before he joins the party, and so on.
battle is over?



[[folder:Purity Heart and Squirps]]

* How come the power of the Purity Heart reforming all worlds was able bring Luvbi back into existence, yet can't do anything for Squirps? Like sending him back to when his mother was alive, or bringing her back to life in the present time, or reforming some of his kingdom, or...something? He's all alone in outer space... If you ask me, that's almost as bad as what Luvbi went through.
** Luvbi was only able to be brought back because she's a Pure Heart. There's nothing in the game to indicate that the Pure Hearts can be used for time travel or bringing back people who have been dead for centuries.
** What about [[spoiler: Blumiere and Timpani]]? Count Bleck himself said that using their vows to destroy the Chaos Heart would cause them to disappear, yet after the end credits, they both appear to be fine. The Purity Heart even managed to restore Tippi to her normal form.
** Yes, disappear is the key word here. That doesn't mean necessarily mean that they died. It probably means that they got transported to another world. In fact, Count Bleck's minions believe that he's still alive and well along with Tippi.
** Wherever they are, it's far beyond the lands of Flip and Flopside.

to:

[[folder:Purity Heart [[folder: Train tickets]]
* Did Mario
and Squirps]]

* How come
co. really have to go straight to Don Pianta in order to obtain tickets for the power Excess Express? Yes, the tickets are supposed to be available only to the rich and famous, but Mario is a hero of the Purity Heart reforming all worlds was able bring Luvbi back into existence, yet can't do anything for Squirps? Like sending him back Mushroom Kingdom and is known to when his mother was alive, or bringing her back to life in the present time, or reforming some a lot of people, and one of his kingdom, or...something? He's all alone companions he's travelling with is a supposedly world-famous actress, who was apparently wealthy enough to have her own private abode built in outer space... If a secluded corner of the Boggly Woods. Even if you ask me, that's almost as bad as what Luvbi went through.
** Luvbi was only able
wanted to be brought back because she's a Pure Heart. There's nothing in the game to indicate argue that Flurrie is retired or something like that, it still begs the Pure Hearts can be used question of why no one ever considers it on option before advising you to ask ''the mafia'' for time travel or bringing back people who a favor, right?
** I'm sure there would
have been dead for centuries.
** What about [[spoiler: Blumiere and Timpani]]? Count Bleck himself said
another way without Don Pianta, but because that using their vows to destroy was the Chaos Heart would cause them to disappear, yet after the end credits, first and apparently easiest opportunity they both appear to be fine. The Purity Heart even managed to restore Tippi to her normal form.
** Yes, disappear is the key word here. That
were presented with, they went with it. As for Mario being famous, that doesn't mean necessarily mean stop innkeepers and shopkeepers from charging him the same as they do everyone else, so I don't see anyone giving him a discount here.
*** Well, you could say it was an easy opportunity, but recall
that they died. It this is also the guy who told him not to come back. And your active partner tells Frankly as much. It's probably means a good thing the Don was in such a bad way when he came in to ask.
** As it turns out, the train tickets are such a breeze for the don
that they got transported he offers to another world. In fact, Count Bleck's minions believe let Mario have as many as he likes...It's just weird that Frankly's first hint of advice whenever a problem arises is "Go see if the mafia will do you a favor for this." The way he explains it to them doesn't even sound like he's still alive aware of what the mafia is really like.
*** Except that what you talk to him about tickets for the blimp, he sounds like he ''does'' know,
and well along with Tippi.
** Wherever they are, it's far beyond
the lands of Flip only reason he's sending you through this channel is that "word on the street is that all tickets go through Don Pianta".
** The mafia controls everything that goes in
and Flopside.everything that goes out of the town. They decide who gets to be rich and famous.



[[folder:Weapons and Bowser's Castle]]

* In ''Super Paper Mario'', why don't the Mario Bros. bring any weapons with them when they go to Bowser's Castle in order to confront him and rescue Peach? Disregarding the fact that (for once) she's not really there, neither of them seem to have their own hammers when you play as them later, and when you first encounter Bowser in battle during Chapter 3, you can't jump on him since he has spikes and using Pixls is the only way to damage him. What exactly was their plan, to just go inside and ask him nicely to return the princess?
** They don't bring weapons because Bowser was like a Saturday-morning cartoon villain. One jump to the noggin and he was down. This all changed in Galaxy though.
** I'm not sure what you're talking about...In this game as well as the last one, Bowser requires the Spike Shield badge or Carrie's Pixl powers in order to be jumped on, and Mario and Luigi don't have any hammers when you start the game as them, so I'm wondering how they were planning on damaging Bowser at all.
** You might as well ask why Mario ''downgraded'' to the basic Hammer and Boots before setting out on what promised to be an adventure in TTYD. ...Actually, why ''did'' he do that?
*** [[BagOfSpilling Bag of Spilling]] in full effect

to:

[[folder:Weapons [[folder: Clouds]]
* How are the Puff-related enemies (and possibly Flurrie) able to deal damage just by making contact? Aren't they all made up of clouds?
** Clouds in videogames tend to be more solid than they are in real life.
** That doesn't really mean that they're solid
and Bowser's Castle]]

*
hard enough to deal damage. In ''Super Paper Mario'', why don't places like Cloudy Climb and the Mario Bros. bring any weapons with them Overthere, the clouds still seem pretty soft, and Puff enemies in TTYD make a ''bouncy'' sound when they go to Bowser's Castle in order to confront him and rescue Peach? Disregarding the fact that (for once) she's not really there, neither of them seem to have their own hammers when you play as them later, and when you first encounter Bowser in battle during Chapter 3, you can't jump on him since he has spikes and using Pixls is the only way to damage him. What exactly was their plan, to just go inside and ask him nicely to return the princess?
** They don't bring weapons because Bowser was like a Saturday-morning cartoon villain. One jump to the noggin and he was down. This all changed in Galaxy though.
** I'm not sure what you're talking about...In this game as well as the last one, Bowser requires the Spike Shield badge or Carrie's Pixl powers in order to be jumped on, and Mario and Luigi don't have any hammers when you start the game as them, so I'm wondering how they were planning on damaging Bowser at all.
** You might as well ask why Mario ''downgraded'' to the basic Hammer and Boots before setting out on what promised to be an adventure in TTYD. ...Actually, why ''did'' he do that?
*** [[BagOfSpilling Bag of Spilling]] in full effect
take damage.



[[folder:Noose in Rogueport]]

* A bit of Fridge Logic/Fridge Horror - Who would the noose in Rogueport even be used on, when a majority of the population are WaddlingHead Goombas?
** Bandits? Toads? Koopas? Craws? Piantas? ...Anthropomorphic snails? The rest of the populace might be waddling heads (Bob-Ombs, Squeeks) or things that float (Boos, Lakitus), but there's no real shortage of kinds of characters it might ''theoretically'' have been used on, though what sorts of crimes were deemed to warrant it...
** What would they even use that noose for, anyway? Even Rogueport doesn't seem like such a nasty place that they would perform public hangings in the central square.
** I think the noose is there because it symbolizes that Rogueport is not as nice as the Mushroom Kingdom and it's a sign that this game is DarkerAndEdgier than the typical Mario game.
** It was probably there to hang really bad criminals, the first of which was probably the witch because they used to do that in the 17th century witch trials along with incendiary executions.

to:

[[folder:Noose in Rogueport]]

[[folder: Keelhaul Key's "Accommodations"]]
* A bit of Fridge Logic/Fridge Horror - Who would Why do the noose in Rogueport even inn and shop on Keelhaul Key still charge coins during Chapter 5? Not only is Mario their captain, but everyone there is stranded on a deserted island. How can they possibly be used on, when a majority of the population are WaddlingHead Goombas?
** Bandits? Toads? Koopas? Craws? Piantas? ...Anthropomorphic snails? The rest of the populace might be waddling heads (Bob-Ombs, Squeeks) or
charged for things that float (Boos, Lakitus), but there's no real shortage of kinds of characters it might ''theoretically'' have been used on, though what sorts of crimes were deemed to warrant it...
** What would
they need to survive? (And even use that noose for, anyway? Even Rogueport doesn't seem like such a nasty place that they would perform public hangings in if money is commonly found just by defeating enemies, the central square.
crew consists, in total, of Mario and his partners, Four-Eyes, Pa-Patch, Flavio, and a few Toads and Bob-ombs - I can only imagine the first three of them having the skills necessary to battle the enemies on the island.)
** I think the noose is there because you've hit upon it symbolizes that Rogueport is not as nice as the Mushroom Kingdom without realizing it. They've still got to make money and it's a sign that this game is DarkerAndEdgier than the typical Mario game.
** It was probably there to hang really bad criminals, the first of which was probably the witch because
get paid, but they used to do that in can't go running into the 17th century witch trials along with incendiary executions.
jungle and fight the enemies therein, so they leave it to more capable fighters such as Mario, who later come back and (at least theoretically) avail themselves of the Toads' services.



[[folder:Attacking Bowser]]

* In ''Super Paper Mario'', why do the Koopas and the like in the Bitlands continue to attack you when you have Bowser in your party? Given we're shown how loyal they are to their king, shouldn't they still be subservient to him?
** Retroactive backtracking. You play the levels as they were, only this time there's no Bowser boss. Same thing happens in the Underwhere Road.
** Well, that can't be the case, because if you play back through the chapters after clearing the game, Squirps is still mourning his mother in the Whoa Zone, Castle Bleck is completely intact, and both Luvbi and King Croacus have come back to life. Yet the Koopas in the Bitlands will still go as far as attacking Bowser directly. I'd say it's possible they were mind-controlled by Nastasia, but again, they still do it after the end of the game, where Nastasia pretty much becomes one of the good guys.

to:

[[folder:Attacking Bowser]]

[[folder: Redemption]]
* In How was Beldam able to get off the hook without punishment in at the end of TTYD? ''Super Paper Mario'', why do Mario'' showed that its villains had some personality and redeemable qualities throughout the Koopas game, but Beldam is a pretty classic case of a WickedWitch. She tricked two groups of people into opening the Thousand-Year Door and resurrecting the Shadow Queen and never displayed any regret at having done so. How is she suddenly all nice and good come the ending? Why does the game imply as though she's already been forgiven?
** Vivian can be quite forgiving and naive, as illustrated throughout the story,
and the like ending was seemingly in fashion of the Bitlands continue "good guys finish the conflict and forgive all loose ends" pattern usually seen in kids' media. On a darker note, Beldam's behavior towards Vivian is actually quite reminiscent of that in abusive relationships: for the abuser to attack you when you have Bowser in your party? Given we're shown how loyal they are shed crocodile tears and promise to make amends to lure the abusee back into their king, shouldn't they still be subservient to him?
** Retroactive backtracking. You play
control (the results are often less than pretty, even when the levels as they were, only this time there's no Bowser boss. Same thing happens in the Underwhere Road.
** Well,
abuser is sincerely trying). Or perhaps Beldam and everyone else against her know that she won't and/or can't be the case, because if you play back through the chapters after clearing the game, Squirps is still mourning his mother pull anything else in the Whoa Zone, Castle Bleck is completely intact, future, given that the Shadow Queen has already been defeated, the unsealing of presumably being the biggest threat Beldam could ever pose, so she herself feels no need to be a {{Jerkass}} anymore now that she has no more plans for herself, and both Luvbi everyone else is content to forgive and King Croacus have come back to life. Yet forget, as {{Karma Houdini}}-ish as it sounds.
** Over
the Koopas in the Bitlands will still go as far as attacking Bowser directly. I'd say it's possible they were mind-controlled by Nastasia, but again, they still do it after the end course of the game, where Nastasia pretty much becomes one of the good guys.
game Vivian [[TookALevelInBadass got a lot stronger]] and was able to beat Beldam multiple times so she won't let anyone push her around any more



[[folder:Blumiere's father and Timpani]]

* What did Blumiere's father do to Timpani, exactly? Everywhere I look simply suggests that he just cursed her to wander through dimensions until she grew exhausted and died...but I haven't really found anything in the game to back this up. Even if it were true, however, this also begs the question of why no one ever helped her before she appeared in Flipside and was taken in by Merlon?
** I haven't played the game in awhile, but that's exactly what happened to Timpani according to http://www.mariowiki.com/Tippi. As for why no one helped her, unfortunately, it's TruthInTelevision; people have a tendency to ignore those who are in danger.
** Maybe...but that seems odd, though, seeing as we hear her telling Blumiere, in flashback, that "anyone with a heart would not ignore an injured soul", and she later argues against Count Bleck's plan by insisting that all beings in the world have a heart...It seems quite odd that she would say that after wandering the worlds to the point of death yet finding no one who stopped her and helped her...
** Maybe she was reminded of the time Merlon helped her and that's what she meant by "anyone with a heart". Or maybe it was a translation error, I don't know.
** We know that Merlon and his clan far exceed the events of Paper Mario, so it's possible he knew Timpani from a different land in is youth.
** It's also possible that Timpani was cursed to wander the third dimension in particular. Think about it. When Red was trapped in 3D, he says that he was hollering and screaming for help for days before you rescue him, and no one even noticed. Perhaps Timpani tried to seek help from the residents of the worlds that she wandered, but no one could see or hear her. Meanwhile, Merlon, a powerful descendant of the Ancients who likely can see past dimensions, was able to find and rescue her while she was on the brink of death.
*** [[FridgeBrilliance That would explain why she was so exhausted! Apart from being attacked by monsters and wandering around without a chance to stop and rest, she also would've had to deal with her Flip meter constantly running down and refilling, taking off a little bit of her health each time, with nothing she could do to stop it.]]

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Star Rod and fire breath]]

* In the first game, when you fight Bowser, he uses the Star Rod and becomes invincible... but with his fire breath attack, why did he need the Star Rod in the first place? He could have likely killed you considering that he had to have at least 10 HP. (it's [[BigBad Bowser,]] after all)
** Well, there's NoKillLikeOverkill, especially when it's against a nemesis who's been wrecking all of your awesome plans for the last who knows how long.
** Not to mention you can power up your weakling enemies like Goombas, Puffs, and even those crazy Shy Guys.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Shadow teleportation]]

* Why doesn't Vivian ever use her power to teleport through the shadows like her sisters can to help Mario and co. when applicable? She could've traveled back to Rogueport to find someone to help the crew when they were stranded on Keelhaul Key, or went to Poshley Heights and gotten the Garnet Star instantaneously instead of Mario having to take the train. (I know the last one wouldn't have mattered since it was a fake, but she could've ''tried''.)
** Keelhaul Key is stated in game to have very turbulent waters surrounding it, which is why you had to seek out Bobbery. And even if another ship were to get close to the island, it would also have been sunk by the Embers.
** There's also a blue pipe, but you need the Ultra Hammer for it.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Cragnons and Floro Sapiens]]

* In Chapter 5 of the third game, the Cragnons are harming Floro Sapiens by throwing garbage into the river and polluting their water supply, thus driving King Croacus, a normally caring ruler who seeks to add beauty to the world, into insanity. The Floro Sapiens' solution to this...is not to simply tell the Cragnons about how what they're doing is harming them, but rather try ''kidnapping'' them and forcing them to work in the mines, therefore driving up tensions between the two groups even more. How is this supposed to be a logical solution to their problems?
** Maybe the Floro Sapians thought that the Cragnons wouldn't listen if they just told them what happened to King Croacus, so they thought force would be the better option. And people tend to not think rationally when they're worrying over someone, especially if they're either suffering from a mental illness or dying.
** Yes, but...even stranger is that King Croacus seems to be the one ordering for the kidnappings, and throughout the chapter, none of the Floro Sapiens ever hint at the pollution being the root of their problem or that they feel that they're nabbing Cragnons for a good cause.
** King Croacus was driven insane by the polluted water, so it's not surprising that he was the one to order the kidnappings. Maybe the chapter's ending was a GreenAesop someone tacked on at the last minute during development when they realized they had flower people as the bad guys.
** Cragnons as a whole were dumb. They didn't know any better other than that as told by Flint Cragley. In other words, if it weren't for Flint, the Cragnons and Floro Sapiens would still be at odds.
** Um, Flint Cragley was a fake. A know-nothing know-it-all, something like Flavio. ''He'' didn't know more than any of the other Cragons that what they were doing was polluting the Floro Sapiens' drinking water - to say that he alone figured out a solution and passed it on to all of them is a bit insulting to the Heroes of Light.
*** Flint Cragley, being a trusted television crag-lebrity, got the Cragnons to stop throwing garbage in the water by spreading the world about enviromental friendliness through his show.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: A shadow of his power]]
* Did anyone else feel that the explanation for the Chaos Heart continuing to exist even after Dimentio's defeat came right out of left field? The way Count Bleck explains it seems incredibly vague as to what exactly this "shadow of power" is or how it works...It seems like a bit of a deus ex machina, if that would be the correct term. Why couldn't it just have been because Luigi was still alive or due to the Chaos Heart absorbing enough power through the fusion to continue existing on its own, or...something that's at least vaguely been hinted at before this point?
** It's probably an odd way of saying "He cast a spell to keep the Chaos Heart's momentum going, and that spell didn't vanish when he died." Most gamers will say that projectiles have a habit of not going away when the caster is killed, leading to an unlucky blow.
** For example, even if one of the Shadow Sirens dies, their effects still hold for their duration, including the minimal chance status.
** But the game said that the Chaos Heart would die with the person who wielded it - that's why Mario and co. spend all that time going after the Pure Hearts, would contradict the idea that the heart behaves similarly to a spell cast by the one who controls it.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: X's Abilities: A Primer]]
In ''The Thousand-Year Door'', the phrase "X's Abilities: A Primer" is stated every time a new partner joins your party (including [[spoiler:Ms. Mowz]], the only optional party member). What does it mean?
* A primer is a type of book, usually intended to teach or introduce something. It's just meant to fit with the whole books/paper theme of the game.
** There's also primers for the abilities, given by Toadette of all people.
** Yes, although those are not exactly referred to as primers, just tutorials, unlike for the partners.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: The Star Rod]]
* In the original ''Paper Mario'', it's repeatedly mentioned that the Star Rod has the power to grant ''any wish'' of the one who wields it. Why, then, does Bowser never just say, "Star Rod, I wish that Mario would be struck by a magical bolt of lightning and zapped out of existence!"? He spends the entire game with the rod in his castle just waiting for Mario to gather enough strength to face him and doesn't seem upset at letting his loyal minions have a go at him in the meantime, so why not just get rid of him the easy way?
** Because the easy way isn't really as satisfying as defeating him himself using his newfound power. Mario and Bowser have been enemies for years, after all.
** Perhaps the Rod is limited by ThouShaltNotKill, not unlike Disney/{{Aladdin}}'s Genie?
** No, it can definitely kill people. Two of Bowser's moves in the final battle involve using the rod to summon lightning and a wave of energy - I've never seen them do it, but I'd imagine those would still kill you if your health is low enough.
*** Perhaps there's a difference between boosting his attack so it's more likely to kill Mario if it connects and just killing him outright regardless of Heart Points. (Not that we ever have a scene with the Rod like in ''Aladdin'' that spells out its limitations, so who knows.)
*** [[OffOnATechnicality "Star Rod, I wish that Mario would be struck by a magical bolt of lightning and banished to the farthest reaches of the Shiverburn Galaxy, never to bother me or disrupt my awesome plans ever again!"]]
** I've always personally suspected that Bowser is at least subconsciously aware of the fact his "kidnap the princess, fight the plumber" routine is the only real purpose he has in life, and doesn't go for obvious failsafe plans because he doesn't know what he'd actually do if he won. A lot of fans also subscribe to the theory that it's not even subconscious, Bowser and Mario are on genuinely good terms and this is just how they have fun and keep up appearances. Alternatively, we might need to consider Bowser is just thick.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: How Did They Switch?]]
* How exactly did Doopliss and Mario switch places? In their first battle, Doopliss is clearly talking while in the "Shadow" Mario form, and even speaks right before he goes down. And then BOOM, as soon as the battle is out, they apparently already traded places? How does that even work considering Doopliss was beaten down as him talking proves.
** I think that the switch takes place right at the end - Doopliss is heard laughing as his HP hits 0, and his next line of dialogue is him saying something along the lines of "Wha...Huh...? You beat me?" I always thought that second line was supposed to be ''Mario'' talking - he's confused as to how he lost when it looked like he'd just won - meaning the switch occurred just after Doopliss's laugh. Now, as for ''how'' or ''why'' it happened right then and there, I'm really not sure how Doopliss's body-stealing magic could've done that. Hopefully someone else can explain that.
** Actually, it (somehow) takes place during the transition from the Stage to the next cutscene. Here's proof (Pay attention to Mario's clothes.): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtWjyK1h_HQ
** That entire plot point is kind of weird, in my opinion - you can't hurt each other when you first confront him as Shadow Mario, and even though the crows are heard saying the magic will stop working if you say his real name, all saying it to him does is let you damage each other again...Again, it's kinda weird.

[[/folder]]

[[folder: Bleck's motives]]
* Why do many people think Count Bleck did want to utterly destroy all worlds and keep them in ruin, as opposed to creating a newer, perfect one like he'd promised his minions? Really. The only person in-game to even suggest that this is the case...is ''Dimentio''. A psychotic jester who has all the reason to try and turn the heroes against the count and is himself trying to destroy all worlds just to create a new one that he himself can rule over. Why would anyone think they could trust ''anything'' he says?
** I think Bleck wanted to recreate everything ''at first'', but when he finally met Tippi and realized she was actually Timpani, he became guilt-ridden and self-loathing and decided on either SuicideByCop or CessationOfExistence.
** The idea was, after he found out Timpani was still alive and wanting the world to continue so that ''she'' could continue, he knew that he had to project himself as an inhumane monster with no qualms with destroying all of existence if given the chance, so that she wouldn't hesitate or have much of a choice when it came time for the heroes to defeat him. So, yes, in a way, he was attempting a sort of SuicideByCop - during the final battle, he repeatedly tries to belittle Mario presumably as a way of pushing and motivating him to keep fighting ("Is that all the heroism you can muster?", "You have failed!", and so forth), and you can see that he's happy when he sees the four heroes reunite. But the point is, he was ''pretending'' in the end to want to destroy all worlds and keep them that way - he didn't really want it that way then or ever.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: ''Illegally'' binding marriage]]
* Could Peach and Bowser's wedding really count as valid or binding when the bride was literally forced into saying "I do"? The Chaos Heart is what's basically a massive reality-warper, but it can't tell that the marriage used to summon it was just a big fake?
** The Chaos Heart seems to work the same way as the Crystal Stars from ''Thousand-Year Door''; it's a very powerful object but it's not sentient at all, therefore it probably can't tell the difference between a forced marriage and a legitimate marriage.
** Considering that [[spoiler:Blumiere and Timpani's geniune vows brought forth the Pure Hearts]], it's possible the fact that it was invalid was the reason that it worked to summon the Chaos Heart in the first place.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: The Tribe of Darkness]]
* So the end of ''Super Paper Mario'' comes, all worlds are restored to life, and the Void disappears for good...All is well, it seems. But what ultimately becomes of Blumiere's father and his other tribesmen? We're never explicitly shown what Blumiere did to them when he stole the Dark Prognosticus, but one can only assume that the dimension was most likely destroyed. Given this was before the Chaos Heart was formed and thus, was not caused by it, would its destruction by the Purity Heart have been able to bring the world back?
** I assume the world and its people were restored, just like the Sammer Kingdom. It seemed like all of the destruction that Count Bleck caused during his role in the Dark Prognosticus, Chaos Heart or not, was undone when the Chaos Heart was destroyed, and I assume that includes his original world. Blumiere's father probably had to find someone else to carry on the family legacy though since I doubt Blumiere had any intention to go back after what they did to Timpani.
** Honestly it's probably [[FridgeHorror Fridge Horror]] I always assumed they were just straight up murdered and they're dead for good
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Pure Heart Protection]]
* Why did Grambi decide to protect his Pure Heart, by turning it into a living thing? Did the Ancients not tell him that it would have to be taken and used by the heroes someday? Squirpina, the Cragnons, and even King Sammer knew about that, so why did Grambi decide to award sentience to the Pure Heart when he knew it would cause Luvbi a lot of emotional torment when she had to be changed back?
** It was a good tactic to hide the Pure Heart... he just ([[JerkAss intentionally]] or [[FailedASpotCheck unintentionally]]) didn't consider the ethics of it.
** Yes, that was my point. It seems unlikely that the Ancients wouldn't tell him about the Chaos Heart, so why didn't he consider the ethics of it? I believe it's clear that he came to care about Luvbi in the end, so...
[[/folder]]

[[folder: The train to Poshley Heights]]
* Why do the Shadow Sirens waste so much time trying to stop Mario from reaching Poshley Heights, with the whole bomb threat, instead of just warping into the sanctum and taking the Garnet Star while he's forced to take the train?
** Maybe Grodus was already setting up his plan to have Mario do the dirty work of gathering the stars for him, and therefore he and the Shadow Sirens weren't seriously trying to stop Mario? That was his logic in not stopping him during the very next chapter (by leaving the last Crystal Star to [[TooIncompetentToOperateABlanket Lord Crump, his "least competent underling")]]. I doubt he had that plan the whole game, but by the point of Mario having all but two of the stars, I see why he would start considering it.
** If that were the case, then '''a.)''' why do the Shadow Sirens take the Crystal Star from the sanctum at all, and '''b.)''' why is Grodus upset that it wound up being a fake? Each Crystal Star Mario collects is his only means of knowing where the next one is, especially since he doesn't know that the X-Nauts already have the last one, and the sirens don't break into the sanctum until Mario gets there anyway, so it's not like they couldn't have waited a few extra minutes for him to grab it.
** Why is everyone assuming the Shadow Sirens' teleportation is instant travel? Even when they disappear into the ground they have to physically move their shadow to where they want to pop up, as evinced by Vivian in battle. Especially taking into consideration the cut parts of Chapter 6 (you were supposed to fight the Sirens at the drawbridge station, and the Smorg was created by Beldam to stop you) one could reasonably assume they were travelling by some other means, if not stowing away on the Excess Express itself.
** Your statement about them having to "move" their shadows to their next location is kind of moot, too, since you can't really do that if you're trying to travel down to Earth's surface from an underground lunar base - there's obviously some sort of teleportation involved, and even if it's not instantaneous, it would still have to be faster than a 3-day train ride. And the things that were cut are irrelevant, too, since they still lead to the question of why the sirens are wasting so much time stopping Mario instead of warping to the sanctum.
** From Beldam's perspective, she doesn't really have to actually stop Mario at any point, as long as somebody opens the door. She just has to act like she's trying.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Rogueport's sorry state]]
* Why is Rogueport stuck in such a dilapidated state? The town has the ruins of an ancient, very prosperous city buried beneath it, all of which seem to be perfectly able to be explored, as well as a huge door rumored to hold a legendary treasure behind it - seems like it would be an archaeologist's dream to go digging through all of that. Yet the reason the town's filled with cutthroats, thieves, and a crime syndicate seems to be that they go to Rogueport because no one ever looks for them there, implying people aren't interested in the treasure and the ancient city.
** I blame the mafia, but honestly most port towns with a lot of cultural mixing end up being populated with poor immigrants trying to eke their way through their overpopulated slums.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Sticker power]]
* In the final battle in ''Sticker Star'', it's said that Mario needs power originating from the Sticker Star in order to counteract Bowser's Royal Sticker. But instead of Kersti having to sacrifice herself, why couldn't he use one or more of the Royal Stickers he already had?
** It was well-established at that point that the royal stickers grant power to people at the cost of their sanity and most of their higher brain function. No matter how badass Mario is, nobody had any reason to believe he'd be immune to their corrupting properties, and Mario getting whacked out on sticker power is a much bigger threat than Bowser could ever be. Conversely, a lot of the game's humor was based on lampshading how by-the-numbers the game was, and even if they didn't make a joke about it directly there was a definite air of "This is the final boss so I have to be dramatic, but we all know I'm gonna be fine by the time the credits roll" to it.
** Going off of your first point, as I do understand the second, why doesn't Kersti's power cause Mario to go nuts, then? If her shiny power is strong enough to let Mario match Bowser and his Royal Sticker's, how is he still able to control it? And why does it go away after the battle is over?
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Train tickets]]
* Did Mario and co. really have to go straight to Don Pianta in order to obtain tickets for the Excess Express? Yes, the tickets are supposed to be available only to the rich and famous, but Mario is a hero of the Mushroom Kingdom and is known to a lot of people, and one of his companions he's travelling with is a supposedly world-famous actress, who was apparently wealthy enough to have her own private abode built in a secluded corner of the Boggly Woods. Even if you wanted to argue that Flurrie is retired or something like that, it still begs the question of why no one ever considers it on option before advising you to ask ''the mafia'' for a favor, right?
** I'm sure there would have been another way without Don Pianta, but because that was the first and apparently easiest opportunity they were presented with, they went with it. As for Mario being famous, that doesn't stop innkeepers and shopkeepers from charging him the same as they do everyone else, so I don't see anyone giving him a discount here.
*** Well, you could say it was an easy opportunity, but recall that this is also the guy who told him not to come back. And your active partner tells Frankly as much. It's probably a good thing the Don was in such a bad way when he came in to ask.
** As it turns out, the train tickets are such a breeze for the don that he offers to let Mario have as many as he likes...It's just weird that Frankly's first hint of advice whenever a problem arises is "Go see if the mafia will do you a favor for this." The way he explains it to them doesn't even sound like he's aware of what the mafia is really like.
*** Except that what you talk to him about tickets for the blimp, he sounds like he ''does'' know, and the only reason he's sending you through this channel is that "word on the street is that all tickets go through Don Pianta".
** The mafia controls everything that goes in and everything that goes out of the town. They decide who gets to be rich and famous.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Clouds]]
* How are the Puff-related enemies (and possibly Flurrie) able to deal damage just by making contact? Aren't they all made up of clouds?
** Clouds in videogames tend to be more solid than they are in real life.
** That doesn't really mean that they're solid and hard enough to deal damage. In places like Cloudy Climb and the Overthere, the clouds still seem pretty soft, and Puff enemies in TTYD make a ''bouncy'' sound when they take damage.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Keelhaul Key's "Accommodations"]]
* Why do the inn and shop on Keelhaul Key still charge coins during Chapter 5? Not only is Mario their captain, but everyone there is stranded on a deserted island. How can they possibly be charged for things they need to survive? (And even if money is commonly found just by defeating enemies, the crew consists, in total, of Mario and his partners, Four-Eyes, Pa-Patch, Flavio, and a few Toads and Bob-ombs - I can only imagine the first three of them having the skills necessary to battle the enemies on the island.)
** I think you've hit upon it without realizing it. They've still got to make money and get paid, but they can't go running into the jungle and fight the enemies therein, so they leave it to more capable fighters such as Mario, who later come back and (at least theoretically) avail themselves of the Toads' services.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Redemption]]
* How was Beldam able to get off the hook without punishment in at the end of TTYD? ''Super Paper Mario'' showed that its villains had some personality and redeemable qualities throughout the game, but Beldam is a pretty classic case of a WickedWitch. She tricked two groups of people into opening the Thousand-Year Door and resurrecting the Shadow Queen and never displayed any regret at having done so. How is she suddenly all nice and good come the ending? Why does the game imply as though she's already been forgiven?
** Vivian can be quite forgiving and naive, as illustrated throughout the story, and the ending was seemingly in fashion of the "good guys finish the conflict and forgive all loose ends" pattern usually seen in kids' media. On a darker note, Beldam's behavior towards Vivian is actually quite reminiscent of that in abusive relationships: for the abuser to shed crocodile tears and promise to make amends to lure the abusee back into their control (the results are often less than pretty, even when the abuser is sincerely trying). Or perhaps Beldam and everyone else against her know that she won't and/or can't pull anything else in the future, given that the Shadow Queen has already been defeated, the unsealing of presumably being the biggest threat Beldam could ever pose, so she herself feels no need to be a {{Jerkass}} anymore now that she has no more plans for herself, and everyone else is content to forgive and forget, as {{Karma Houdini}}-ish as it sounds.
** Over the course of the game Vivian [[TookALevelInBadass got a lot stronger]] and was able to beat Beldam multiple times so she won't let anyone push her around any more
[[/folder]]
16th Mar '18 9:47:32 PM Summonwind
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Added DiffLines:

** Maybe he thought the way to Flurrie's house was more dangerous for him then attempting to find help if he went towards Rogueport?
15th Feb '18 4:10:49 PM Chansey88
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to:

*** It was said by the businessrat that the syrup could even resurrect the dead. Even if that was an exaggeration, it was obviously a pretty powerful item, so the creators likely did a LOT of research into its chemical formula. Calcium and gold, despite gold being notoriously nonreactive, could theoretically create this explosion if mixed with the syrup, which the manufacturers probably knew.
5th Dec '17 7:17:27 AM sugaricequeen
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** Wasn't his adventure over with at that point?
5th Dec '17 7:11:32 AM sugaricequeen
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*** [[FridgeBrilliance That would explain why she was so exhausted! Apart from being attacked by monsters and wandering around without a chance to stop and rest, she also would've had to deal with her Flip meter constantly running down and refilling, taking off a little bit of her health each time, with nothing she could do to stop it.]]
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.PaperMario