History Headscratchers / MassEffect3

9th Jun '18 10:22:20 AM costanton11
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* This might be ME 1 headscratcher as well, but I'll write it here: In the first game, Saren and Shepard are both looking for prothean beacons and a way to understand them to help/stop the Reapers. During the third game we find out that there was a huge beacon on Thessia, which Benezia almost surely knew about. So why didn't she tell Saren about it when she was indoctrinated? Has he never bothered to ask? Did he knew about, but assumed it wasn't anything important? Did she manage to somehow withhold this information from him through the force of will or some crap like that? If so, why didn't she tell Shepard about it once the control has been broken? Is there any {{In-Universe}} possible explanation for this?

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* This might be ME 1 headscratcher as well, but I'll write it here: In the first game, Saren and Shepard are both looking for prothean beacons and a way to understand them to help/stop the Reapers. During the third game we find out that there was a huge beacon on Thessia, which Benezia almost surely knew about. So why didn't she tell Saren about it when she was indoctrinated? Has he never bothered to ask? Did he knew about, but assumed it wasn't anything important? Did she manage to somehow withhold this information from him through the force of will or some crap like that? If so, why didn't she tell Shepard about it once the control has been broken? Is there any {{In-Universe}} InUniverse possible explanation for this?
10th May '18 12:06:13 PM Malady
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[[folder: "Chemistry of Life"]]
* I understand that in this day and age, biology is the go-to magical science, but how does Javik's "biochemical touch" even work? How does it distinguish between neurotransmitters and hormones of various unrelated races, allowing him to detect their feelings? How can he detect traces of Grunt - and his emotions - in the cargo hold, after the entire spaceship has been refitted and presumably UV'd, scrubbed and chemically cleaned to oblivion? Why not use something like "individual biotic aura" for Javik to feel? Biotics are already well-established within the ME universe and, at least for me, would be much easier to swallow than the bio-Technobabble.
** There's no evidence that the ship was scrubbed in any way. Hell, judging by the interior of the ship, they were still pulling bits of the Normandy's old guts out and replacing them. And "individual biotic aura" makes even ''less'' sense considering what we know about biotics.
** In fact, there's evidence for the ship not have been scrubbed (or completely taken apart, for that matter) at all, like the roaming space hamster and the lost ship models.
** The whole point of Javik's ability is to give the Protheans an aura of mystery and otherness, and to demonstrate that there are still major holes in the current Cycle's understanding of the laws of the universe. Like with the "space magic" of the ending, you are supposed to get the feeling that there's still so many undiscovered things in the cosmos.
** The Alliance only made sweeps for Cerberus bugs, as stated by Traynor. So, aside from retrofitting, there is no scrubbing otherwise.
** I have problems with this too, but ''most'' of the stuff Javik identifies can be discovered in a lab from studying individual cells. Species and sex can be determined from the DNA, age can be approximately deduced from telomeres and the amount of biodegradation, and ''maybe'' one can make very rough guesses at the specimen's lifestyle from the exact composition of the cells. Emotions from direct touch to a living subject are even easier to detect. I've got nothing on extrapolations of emotions from minor cell samples, though. Maybe Javik just made some generic guesses about Grunt's personality based on him being a young tank-grown krogan. I don't think the writers really thought this one through -- they probably just went by RuleOfCool, just like the Synthesis ending. And no, explaining it as biotics wouldn't solve anything, it would be a VoodooShark. Biotics are not a universal plot hole plug like [[StarWars the Force]], they are an application of mass effect fields for pseudo-telekinesis. They have nothing to do with the "walking biolab" abilities Javik displays.
[[/folder]]



[[folder: The Crucible and the Conduit]]
* Ok, many aspects of the ending give me a serious headache, but for now I'll stick to two major problems:
** 1. Did the Reapers influence the design of the Conduit? I keep on getting confused whether or not that is the case. If they didn't, then why would the designers make things so damn complicated by making it activated by the Catalyst and thus make it have to merge with the Citadel? Unless I missed something...
** Conduits are simply scaled down versions of mass relays, nothing more nothing less.
** 2. Why would the Reapers build a Conduit ON EARTH leading directly to the Citadel? Why give the resistance's ground troops access to it? If it was so that the Reapers could send up their own troops to defend the Citadel, why does Shepard not encounter any resistance (not counting the Illusive Man) aboard the station at all? Unless either the Catalyst was somehow manipulating things or the Conduit just somehow formed on its own or moved to Earth from Ilos, it really doesn't make any sense (of course, it's definitely not unique in that sense).
** Shepard and Anderson theorize in the game that the Conduit was used to transport humans to the Citadel for "processing", presumably to create a new Reaper. Using a Conduit is far more efficient than having to carry everything up via ship. The Reapers also had no reason to guard the interior of the Citadel simply because they never thought anybody would be able to reach it.
[[/folder]]
5th May '18 7:33:35 AM Malady
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** Series/DoctorWho uses a police box, not a phone box. Could just be something they kept and just updated them with future tech? Just kept the look of them for aesthetics? (Granted, to me they look terrible.) Unless you can look inside one, (which I couldn't) you don't know.... Other then that, your fighting the penultimate battle for earth, and your concern is how a phone booth in the future looks?

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** Series/DoctorWho ''Series/DoctorWho'' uses a police box, not a phone box. Could just be something they kept and just updated them with future tech? Just kept the look of them for aesthetics? (Granted, to me they look terrible.) Unless you can look inside one, (which I couldn't) you don't know.... Other then that, your fighting the penultimate battle for earth, and your concern is how a phone booth in the future looks?















[[folder: The Citadel and Relay Network]]
* What happened to everyone on the Citadel when it was taken by the Reapers? A lot of my favorite characters were on board! Aria, Bailey, Liara's dad, possibly Dr. Chakwas and Mordin, the Council (love to hate 'em), Kolyat, Kelly, Dr. Michel, all those other lovable background {{Non Player Character}}s...
** I really wonder about this too, because you can see traffic still flying around on the wards, which makes me wonder if everyone in the wards is still there and going about their business as if nothing happened.
** There is no canon fate for any of them AFAIK, but it's perfectly possible that at least some survived. The Citadel is a massive structure, and even after the Reaper attack it still had plenty of structures left standing to hide in. Also, the Reapers held it for a couple of days at most, which is a very inadequate time to flush everyone out.
** As Vigil explains in the first game, once the Reapers take control of the Citadel, they have total control over the Relay network. The Prothean Empire, and the civilizations of the previous cycles, were defeated -- in part -- because they could no longer make use of the Mass Relays around which their society was built. Reinforcements? Impossible. Communication? Impossible. So why on earth do the Reapers ''allow'' the use of the Relays once they've claimed the Citadel towards the end of the game?
** Because the Catalyst wanted the fleet to reach Earth in the first place to challenge the Reapers.
** I'd be more willing to go with a handwave that the Crucible itself had some sort of jamming signal to prevent the Citadel from being used to its full extent. The Catalyst, after all, tells us that it couldn't even ''conceive'' of "another solution" until the Crucible had docked, so the idea that it ''wanted'' the Reapers to be challenged seems implausible at best. Until it's altered by the Crucible, the Reapers were doing everything in their power to reap as they would normally reap. And, regardless, that there's no attempt to either explain or question why the Relay Network hasn't been shut down remains a pretty glaring omission. I honestly have to wonder if the writers simply forgot what the Citadel was capable of in Reaper hands.
** We actually do get an explanation for why they can't control the network way back in the first game. They control it by controlling the Keepers, and the Keepers no longer respond to their commands. Sovereign had to physically interact with it to try and activate it's own relay, and they may well have simply not had time to get it up and running at full capability yet. Since we never find out how they took it, they might have just gotten an indoctrinated agent on the controls and flown it there under it's own power (it was established early on that the races living there have no idea what 90% of the stuff on it does), then the attack comes as soon as they get it parked.
** That the Keepers no longer respond their signal is irrelevant if they have indoctrinated followers capable of activating the command console, as Saren attempted. They must have already have had a Reaper physically interact with the Citadel to fly the thing to Earth, after all. That being said, the entry on the Crucible's "Inferometric Array" mentions that the Crucible ''is'', indeed, capable of tuning into the command switches of the mass relays....
** So that sounds like they used the Crucible to turn on the mass relay back to Earth, which I suppose would explain why that's the only place you can go.

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[[folder: The Citadel and Relay Network]]
Illusive Man move in elusive ways]]
* What happened Considering the absolute nigthmare it was to everyone on get to the teleport beam thingy while being supported by the entire military might of the milky way, how did TIM manage to show up for the final in the Citadel?
** He was already long gone from the main Cerberus base when you showed up. In fact, he probably just went straight to
the Citadel when it on a normal transport. Also keep in mind, he was taken by the Reapers? A lot of my favorite characters were on board! Aria, Bailey, Liara's dad, possibly Dr. Chakwas and Mordin, the Council (love to hate 'em), Kolyat, Kelly, Dr. Michel, all those other lovable background {{Non Player Character}}s...
** I really wonder about this too, because you can see traffic still flying around on the wards, which makes me wonder if everyone in the wards is still there and going about their business as if nothing happened.
** There is no canon fate for any of them AFAIK, but it's perfectly possible that at least some survived. The Citadel is a massive structure, and even after the Reaper attack it still had plenty of structures left standing to hide in. Also,
indoctrinated, so the Reapers held it for a couple of days at most, which is a very inadequate time to flush everyone out.
** As Vigil explains in the first game, once the Reapers take control of the Citadel, they have total control over the Relay network. The Prothean Empire, and the civilizations of the previous cycles, were defeated -- in part -- because they could no longer make use of the Mass Relays around which their society was built. Reinforcements? Impossible. Communication? Impossible. So why on earth do the Reapers ''allow'' the use of the Relays once they've claimed the Citadel towards the end of the game?
** Because the Catalyst wanted the fleet to reach Earth in the first place to challenge the Reapers.
** I'd be more willing to go with a handwave that the Crucible itself had some sort of jamming signal to prevent the Citadel from being used to its full extent. The Catalyst, after all, tells us that it couldn't even ''conceive'' of "another solution" until the Crucible had docked, so the idea that it ''wanted'' the Reapers to be challenged seems implausible at best. Until it's altered by the Crucible, the Reapers were doing everything in their power to reap as they would normally reap. And, regardless, that there's no attempt to either explain or question why the Relay Network hasn't been shut down remains a pretty glaring omission. I honestly have to wonder if the writers simply forgot what the Citadel was capable of in Reaper hands.
** We actually do get an explanation for why they can't control the network way back in the first game. They control it by controlling the Keepers, and the Keepers no longer respond to their commands. Sovereign had to physically interact with it to try and activate it's own relay, and they
may well have simply not had time to get it up and running at full capability yet. Since we never find out how they took it, they might have just gotten an indoctrinated agent on the controls and flown it there under it's own power (it was established early on that the races living there have no idea what 90% of the stuff on it does), then the attack comes as soon as they get it parked.
** That the Keepers no longer respond their signal is irrelevant if they have indoctrinated followers capable of activating the command console, as Saren attempted. They must have already have had a Reaper physically interact with the Citadel to fly the thing to Earth, after all. That being said, the entry on the Crucible's "Inferometric Array" mentions that the Crucible ''is'', indeed, capable of tuning into the command switches of the mass relays....
** So that sounds like they used the Crucible to turn on the mass relay back to Earth, which I suppose would explain why that's the only place you can go.
let him pass.



[[folder:Taking the Citadel]]

* Allright, so at some point the reapers decide to get the citadel back, and do so with such an humiliating ease it apparently took them five minutes top (So no one on the citadel apparently could do the smart thing and close the arms, WTH?). No one ever wonder about what happened to the millions of people on the citadel (though dead or huskified are pretty safe bets).Then the Reapers...I don't know, tow, I guess, the whole whooping citadel through the nearby relay (damn those things are hardcore, that one just shallowed a space object a hundred time bigger than himself). Then they took it to Earth, probably because the plot say so. That whole sequence headscratch me so hard I probably just bore a hole in my skull.
** First, why would it be a stretch for a Relay to move the Citadel? There's never been an established upper limit to what they can move. There's also no evidence that the Reapers took it over in "five minutes top." We just learn that while the Fifth Fleet is storming the Cerberus base that the Reapers took the Citadel and moved it. Third, there's no indication that the Reapers did ''anything'' to the people on the Citadel; from what we can see inside the Citadel's closed Ward arms, there's still plenty of orderly traffic moving around. Most likely what happened, judging by TIM's presence, is that Cerberus took control of the station's control systems and moved it per Reaper orders to Sol. Somehow.
** It'd be a stretch because the Citadel is FAR larger than the meteor that Shepard destroyed the Alpha Relay with, which was way too big for the relay to throw/cast(judging by the fact that the Alpha Relay apparently tried to do so before it was destroyed).
** No. Mass relays do not automatically attempt to send anything through them if they approach. Any object passing through the relay has to communicate to the mass relay first to tell it where it wants to be sent or even ''if'' it wants to be sent.
** It's possible that the Citadel can move by itself, if directed by the Catalyst or the Reapers. It is the single largest concentration of Element Zero in existence, and the heart of the Relay Network after all. It could just use the Network as a guidance system, and make the jump under its own power.
** The Reapers' takeover of the Citadel is triggered by TIM informing them of its nature as the Catalyst. They took it and moved it into Earth's orbit, where they had ammassed a large force that could protect it. They held it for the short time between Shepard's assault on the Cerberus base and the big battle on Earth, so only a few days at most. That's too short a time for them to completely kill or huskify the entire population. As for the Citadel being moved, we don't know if Mass Relays can move themselves, but if they can then the Citadel (the largest Mass Relay in the galaxy) probably could relocate itself.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Why take the Citadel]]

* For that matter, is it ever explained WHY the reapers/cerberus tried to "kidnap" the Citadel? were the reapers going to use it as some kind of instant whole planet harvester?
** Because TIM informed the Reapers that the Citadel was the Catalyst, the final component needed to activate the Crucible. The Reapers moved it to Earth orbit, where they had a large force that could protect it.
** The Citadel IS the Catalyst, and as the endings shown, as soon as they attach the Crucible to it the Reapers lose. They weren't so much capturing it to use it as they were capturing it to ensure you couldn't instantly defeat them. In more meta terms, imagine how boring the game would have been if you battled long lines as you waited for the Crucible to dock uncontested with the Citadel, and then have a nice chat with the virtual boy before sacrificing yourself.
** My charitable interpretation is that the people on the Citadel were the ones who closed the arms when the Reapers approached it (there are probably now security protocols in place to prevent them from pulling a Sovereign and using the Citadel to shut down the relay network). The Reapers then moved the closed Citadel to Earth orbit, where it would be protected by a Reaper fleet from any attempts to get the Crucible through. What ''really'' puzzles me is why the Reapers didn't fire on the Crucible after it docked with the Citadel, or even mid-docking.
** Considering how much energy is being put out by the Crucible, I think they're worried about what kind of damage it could do to the Citadel if it were to be destroyed and all that energy was released.
** I agree. The Crucible is said to be incredibly powerful and to require enormous amounts of eezo. In Arrival, we see that an exploding Mass Relay has the power of a supernova. If the Crucible exploding had even 1/1000 of that power, it might still have been enough to destroy the Citadel and all Reaper forces present. Given that the Citadel hosts the Catalyst, it probably didn't want to risk that.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: The Illusive Man move in elusive ways]]
* Considering the absolute nigthmare it was to get to the teleport beam thingy while being supported by the entire military might of the milky way, how did TIM manage to show up for the final in the Citadel?
** He was already long gone from the main Cerberus base when you showed up. In fact, he probably just went straight to the Citadel on a normal transport. Also keep in mind, he was indoctrinated, so the Reapers may have simply let him pass.
[[/folder]]









[[folder: Legion and the Reaper Code]]
* What does the code do and how does it allow the geth to achieve 'true' consciousness? What IS true consciousness? The geth as a whole seemed pretty to have a good grasp of awareness even if it was different from how organics think. What changed that the geth were no longer hundreds of programs interacting and is now an 'individual'?
** The difference seems to be that, while a regular Geth program is non-sentient, the Geth as a whole only attaining self-awareness through the consensus, a single Reaper-upgraded Geth program is complex enough to be self-aware. Each single Geth program was upgraded to the level of EDI. Before the upgrade, the Geth as a race was self-aware, but each individual unit was not, they were basically a hivemind, now each unit is a "person".
** Pretty much this. In order for the geth within a single platform to actually reach mental functioning comparable to a human, geth platforms must operate in large groups so that their network can handle basic functions more effectively and free up processing power for higher functions. Legion was unique in that they had enough geth programs within one specialized platform that they could operate independently. The Reaper codes allowed individual geth programs to become as aware as a true AI, letting them graduate from being simply [=VIs=] working in concert to actual individuals.
** Well, if that is the case, then what happened to the ones inside legion, exactly. As I recall, he had over a thousand programs. If they are all still inside him, even if they are each complex enough by themselves to be their own individual, why does he refer to itself as "I" when there are still so many conciousnesses inside him? Furthermore, isn't it a bit of a cop out for him to accept the reaper code when the geth determined in the previous game that the reason they rejected the reapers is because they wanted to achieve their level of sapience on their own terms?
** Legion uses the Reaper code because of the ''giant Reaper armada invading the galaxy'', which is happening immediately after the quarians destroyed so many geth that overall operating capability within the entire Consensus was hampered to the point that the geth were reverting to baseline survival protocols. The geth don't have time to play around with developing their own tech at this point. The Reapers are here. They need those upgrades ''now''.
** We ''assume'', sure. It's still weird Shepard doesn't have the opportunity to bring up the change in attitude, though.
** I'm pretty sure that Shepard does/can bring it up to Legion and that his response is exactly what the person above you said - the Geth accepted the code out of desparation and that they were now under the influence of the Reapers because of the indoctrination that caused by part of the code and by the Reaper in their fortress (or whatever it is).
** I would assume that the consensus now has the ability to implant individual entities in each Geth casing as seen fit which might lead to internal social climbing such as Geth soldier upgrading to Prime bodies. Originally, the Geth did not want the Reaper led change and so turned their back against it, but desperation and fear of genocide changed their moral imperative to survive. Once the change was incorporated, they were enslaved by the Reapers which leads to Legion's desperate cries to help him and his people. This helped their evolution and they couldn't turn their back on the possibility especially with the looming Reaper invasion. Mankind should never have evolved the atomic weapon but once the possibility was realized, we couldn't deny its allure. All life focuses on its evolution and its survival. The Geth are no different.
** Remember what Sovereign said in Mass Effect 1:
-->'''Sovereign:''' ''[[AC: We are each a nation, independent, free of all weaknesses.]]''
** And Legion in Mass Effect 2 says that the Reapers are made up of many consciousnessess, like the geth, the difference being that the Reapers can also think independantly and individually. With the addition of the Reaper code, so can the geth.

[[/folder]]



[[folder: Reapers attack on Sanctuary]]
* If the reapers have the Illusive man in their pocket via indoctrination, what is the point of their attack on Sanctuary?
** They attacked at the point where [=TIM=]'s research into Reaper control mechanisms got far enough that they believed he could end up becoming a threat. The real question is why they thought that if an indoctrinated person could not take control of them.
** TIM might not have been able to gain control of them, but if the research at Sanctuary had been allowed to continued it might have ended up in non-indoctrinated hands. That would be reason enough to wipe out Sanctuary.
** "Indoctrinated" does not mean "absolutely and totally under their control." TIM was indoctrinated to the point where he was useful if manipulated with subtlety, but he could still act overly on his own if he wanted to. Besides, the facility as a whole was a threat regardless; if the Alliance or any other galactic power found Sanctuary, they could use the research just as readily as Cerberus.
** The man running the place for TIM ISN't indoctrinated.
** TIM's investigation of Reaper code leaves a trail that could make the war more difficult for Reaper armada. He is leaving bread crumbs which will help others if not stopped. Just like Saren left bread crumbs which enraged Sovereign: the beacon, the Thorian, the Krogan facility on Virmire. Humanity has found a hero that gets those bread crumbs and uses it against the Reaper agenda, just like he did with the crumbs those damned Protheans left behind and also the secret weapon passed down through countless cycles and kept secret each time. The Reapers don't want peace, they want dominance. Anything else is a nuisance.
** An alternative hypothesis: The Reapers attacked explicitly to give TIM the illusion that he posed a credible threat to them, thus reinforcing his delusion that he is not indoctrinated and working toward their ultimate goals.
[[/folder]]



[[folder:Reaper Tech and Indoctrination]]
* Isn't anybody worried about people in the Alliance, Council, or other races being indoctrinated during the main story? The Reaper tech you picked up during the N7 Sanctum mission goes straight to Alliance researchers and nobody thinks that might be a problem? The Derelict Reaper from Mass Effect 2 proved that Reaper corpses with any kind of power can still generate enough juice to indoctrinate organics ... yet nobody seems to be bothered by giant Reaper corpses now sitting on Tuchanka and Rannoch?
** The small Reaper devices are likely safe; the only Reaper devices encountered that caused indoctrination are large-scale objects like Reaper themselves, Object Rho, and the device in the mine. As for the dead Reapers on Tuchanka and Rannoch, those would likely be disassembled - explosively - and the areas around them would be marked as no-go zones until the Reaper is completely destroyed. Remember that once Sovereign was destroyed, there was no danger of indoctrination on the Citadel from the wreckage, and the derelict Reaper was still largely intact with a functional power core. The Reapers disabled on Tuchanka and Rannoch were completely destroyed with no intact power supplies, and indoctrination fields can only exist if the Reaper is still getting power and is intact, and both of those Reapers were very much not intact by the end.
** In the Shadow Broker files it's discussed how some Reaper tech is being analyzed from distance using remote drones to avoid the Indoctrination effect. Most likely all these objects are treated as extremely hazardous materials, and no-one will approach them in person once they've been secured.
** In the ''Leviathan'' DLC, the research lab has a rather large fragment of Sovereign on display. If questioned, the staff will reply that it is behind very powerful energy shields and that they have regular psych evaluations just in case that isn't enough. Apparently mass effect fields can block the indoctrination signal.
** Even if they are isolated, if they are still capable of indoctrination the wreck on Tuchanka is right in the territory of ''the mother of all Thresher Maws''. Imagine that thing being indoctrinated or huskified...
** Again, if the Reaper tech is sufficiently damaged then it cannot indoctrinate. The Reaper's power core needs to be active to generate husks or indoctrination fields, and if Kalros inflicts sufficient damage to the Reaper, which is indicated when it attacks, then the Reaper will be completely inert.
** There is no indication of how damaged a Reaper has to be to lose its indoctrination field; judging from the Derelict Reaper they don't have to be in a sapient condition do cause the effect. However, even if the field continues to excert influence, I doubt that a creature as simple as the Tresher Maw could be affected; it's not the type of creature to understand the complex ideas that the indoctrination influences on; at best a Reaper could guide it to attack specified targets, but since the Reaper is dead, there is nothing Kalros is likely to do besides what it has always done, which is to guard its territory.
** Actually, Liara explicitly tells Glyph that the Krogan should avoid the area because the destroyer ''is'' still active.

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[[folder:Reaper Tech and Indoctrination]]
[[folder: War Asset oddities]]
* Isn't anybody worried about people in Much of the Alliance, Council, or other races being indoctrinated during the main story? The Reaper tech you picked up during the N7 Sanctum mission goes straight to Alliance researchers and nobody thinks that might be a problem? The Derelict Reaper from Mass Effect 2 proved that Reaper corpses with any kind process of power can still generate enough juice to indoctrinate organics ... yet nobody gathering war assets seems to be bothered by giant Reaper corpses now sitting on Tuchanka and Rannoch?
** The small Reaper devices are likely safe; the only Reaper devices encountered that caused indoctrination are large-scale objects like Reaper themselves, Object Rho, and the device in the mine. As for the dead Reapers on Tuchanka and Rannoch, those would likely be disassembled - explosively - and the areas around them would be marked as no-go zones until the Reaper is
completely destroyed. Remember that once Sovereign was destroyed, arbitrary. Why are there random warships and commando teams hanging around planets without either reaper presence or installations to defend? Why was no danger of indoctrination on the Citadel Volus dreadnaught Kwunu orbiting a random gas giant instead of defending the homeworld or linking up with other fleets? It is also possible to gain Asari assets before the invasion of Thessia that are for some reason NOT recalled to defend the homeworld.
** Units separated
from the wreckage, main fleet without orders to move due to comm buoy disruption. I always viewed it as simply being a case of Shepard finding the unit/fleet, and the derelict Reaper was still largely intact relaying orders for them to link up with a functional power core. The Reapers disabled on Tuchanka and Rannoch were completely destroyed with no intact power supplies, and indoctrination fields can only exist if the Reaper is still getting power and is intact, and both fleets they got separated from. As for ''why'' they're in such out of the way places, just about all of those Reapers were very much not intact by the end.
** In the Shadow Broker files it's discussed how some Reaper tech is being analyzed from distance using remote drones to avoid the Indoctrination effect. Most
systems are in Reaper-controlled zones. They're likely all these objects are treated as extremely hazardous materials, and no-one will approach them in person once they've been secured.
** In the ''Leviathan'' DLC, the research lab has a rather large fragment
hiding out for fear of Sovereign on display. If questioned, the staff will reply that it is behind very powerful energy shields and that they have regular psych evaluations just in case that isn't enough. Apparently mass effect fields can block the indoctrination signal.
** Even if they are isolated, if they are still capable of indoctrination the wreck on Tuchanka is right in the territory of ''the mother of all Thresher Maws''. Imagine that thing
being indoctrinated or huskified...
** Again, if
detected and destroyed/harvested, and unlike the Reaper tech is sufficiently damaged then it cannot indoctrinate. The Reaper's power core needs to be active to generate husks or indoctrination fields, and if Kalros inflicts sufficient damage to the Reaper, which is indicated when it attacks, then the Reaper will be completely inert.
** There is no indication of how damaged a Reaper has to be to lose its indoctrination field; judging from the Derelict Reaper
Normandy, they don't have a stealth system to be in hide their presence. Normandy can give them a sapient condition do cause link to their respective command via their QEC and can give them an opportunity to get to the effect. However, even if main mass relay and get out of the field continues to excert influence, I doubt that a creature as simple as system and occupied cluster.
** Or you store
the Tresher Maw could be affected; it's not warships in pokeball-like devices in your cargo hold.
** Wrex, I choose you!
** The units you find are either stranded, hiding or retreating against
the type of creature to understand the complex ideas that the indoctrination influences on; at best a unstoppable Reaper could guide it to attack specified targets, but since onslaught. Most have no comms with their respective command, no knowledge of outside events and often no way of moving. The Normandy finding them means that they get information, tips on the Reaper is dead, there is nothing Kalros is safest route to leave the system, up-to-date info on where they are needed and likely help with repairs (even just a functioning power cell to do besides what it has always done, which is to guard its territory.
** Actually, Liara explicitly tells Glyph that the Krogan should avoid the area because the destroyer ''is'' still active.
get airborne).



[[folder: Scions and Praetorians]]
* Why the absence of these enemies? Being made from Husks, there should be plenty of materials on hand for the Reapers to make more of them, and we know that the Scions, at least, are not Collector-dependent, as they show up on the Derelict Reaper.
** Ravagers do the same job as Scions with greater mobility. Pretorians's limited effectiveness against Shepard's team likely resulted in them being phased out; Harvesters do a better job overall as close air support platforms.
** Bigger question on my mind is where did all the mechs go? You'd think that with the Reaper invasion they'd be in higher demand than ever. Hell, they'd make perfect canon fodder for TIM's army.
** Considering how unreliable they proved in the previous game, I wouldn't be surprised that TIM just refused to use them to guard critical installations, let alone have them deployed on strike ops.
** [[spoiler:The mechs return in the Omega DLC, having been rebuilt into much more mobile and dangerous Rampart Mechs.]]
** Scions and Praetorians are now part of the Collector forces in multiplayer.

to:

[[folder: Scions Vendetta (Prothean VI)]]
* Vendetta was programmed to reveal the Citadel as the Catalyst only once the Crucible was completed. He explains this is to avert the Reapers' learning of the threat in advance
and Praetorians]]
* Why
then taking control of the absence Citadel to prevent the Crucibleís use. But isn't "taking control of these enemies? Being made from Husks, there should be plenty of materials on hand for the Citadel" usually the very ''first'' thing the Reapers do? Why would he have been programmed with safeguards that assumed otherwise? The only Protheans with reason to believe the following cycle would prevent the Citadel-trap were the Ilos team, and they worked in complete isolation. Are we meant to assume the Citadel is normally left undefended after the Reapers make more use of them, and we know it?
** They were probably hoping
that the Scions, at least, are not Collector-dependent, next cycle would actually find and pay attention to their Beacons, and as such start preparing well before they show up reached the 50,000-year deadline.
** Pretty much. Javik was outright ''shocked'' that when a beacon ''was'' uncovered, that no one heeded their warnings. They thought that the beacons would serve as a perfectly functional warning.
** Fair point. Though if the assumption was that the Crucible would be developed sometime before the Reapers even arrived, it makes even less sense to program Vendetta to withhold information
on the Derelict Reaper.
Catalyst for the reasons it offered.
** Ravagers do The only flaw in their cunning plan, then, was to assume that the Beacons would make it through intact in numbers greater than 1, and/or that anyone would actually ''find'' them before the Reapers start to send in Indoctrinated minions to destroy the evidence before it can be analyzed and disseminated. Probably should have left a couple near the worlds they KNEW sentient life was developing on...
** They ''did''. That's exactly why they left a beacon on Thessia in the first place: the Protheans were convinced that the asari would be able to stop the next phase of the cycle. And more than one beacon did survive into the next cycle. The one on Thessia, the one on Eden Prime, and the one on Virmire.
** Javik is pretty honest, at least with a cynical Shep, about the fact he's lying to keep Liara's spirits up. More importantly, [=ME=]1 told us that the warnings were sent out to the beacons by the Ilos team after the Reapers had returned to dark space. Though it's not especially implausible to think disparate groups of Protheans had
the same job as Scions with greater mobility. Pretorians's limited effectiveness against Shepard's team likely resulted in them being phased out; Harvesters do a better job overall as close air support platforms.
** Bigger question on my mind is where did all the mechs go? You'd think that with the Reaper invasion they'd be in higher demand than ever. Hell, they'd make perfect canon fodder for TIM's army.
** Considering how unreliable they proved in the previous game, I wouldn't be surprised that TIM just refused to use them to guard critical installations, let alone have them deployed on strike ops.
** [[spoiler:The mechs return in the Omega DLC, having been rebuilt into much more mobile and dangerous Rampart Mechs.]]
** Scions and Praetorians are now part of the Collector forces in multiplayer.
ideas.



[[folder: War Asset oddities]]
* Much of the process of gathering war assets seems completely arbitrary. Why are there random warships and commando teams hanging around planets without either reaper presence or installations to defend? Why was the Volus dreadnaught Kwunu orbiting a random gas giant instead of defending the homeworld or linking up with other fleets? It is also possible to gain Asari assets before the invasion of Thessia that are for some reason NOT recalled to defend the homeworld.
** Units separated from the main fleet without orders to move due to comm buoy disruption. I always viewed it as simply being a case of Shepard finding the unit/fleet, and relaying orders for them to link up with the fleets they got separated from. As for ''why'' they're in such out of the way places, just about all of those systems are in Reaper-controlled zones. They're likely hiding out for fear of being detected and destroyed/harvested, and unlike the Normandy, they don't have a stealth system to hide their presence. Normandy can give them a link to their respective command via their QEC and can give them an opportunity to get to the main mass relay and get out of the system and occupied cluster.
** Or you store the warships in pokeball-like devices in your cargo hold.
** Wrex, I choose you!
** The units you find are either stranded, hiding or retreating against the unstoppable Reaper onslaught. Most have no comms with their respective command, no knowledge of outside events and often no way of moving. The Normandy finding them means that they get information, tips on the safest route to leave the system, up-to-date info on where they are needed and likely help with repairs (even just a functioning power cell to get airborne).

to:

[[folder: War Asset oddities]]
"Chemistry of Life"]]
* Much I understand that in this day and age, biology is the go-to magical science, but how does Javik's "biochemical touch" even work? How does it distinguish between neurotransmitters and hormones of various unrelated races, allowing him to detect their feelings? How can he detect traces of Grunt - and his emotions - in the cargo hold, after the entire spaceship has been refitted and presumably UV'd, scrubbed and chemically cleaned to oblivion? Why not use something like "individual biotic aura" for Javik to feel? Biotics are already well-established within the ME universe and, at least for me, would be much easier to swallow than the bio-Technobabble.
** There's no evidence that the ship was scrubbed in any way. Hell, judging by the interior
of the process ship, they were still pulling bits of gathering war assets seems the Normandy's old guts out and replacing them. And "individual biotic aura" makes even ''less'' sense considering what we know about biotics.
** In fact, there's evidence for the ship not have been scrubbed (or
completely arbitrary. Why are taken apart, for that matter) at all, like the roaming space hamster and the lost ship models.
** The whole point of Javik's ability is to give the Protheans an aura of mystery and otherness, and to demonstrate that
there random warships and commando teams hanging around planets without either reaper presence or installations to defend? Why was are still major holes in the Volus dreadnaught Kwunu orbiting a random gas giant instead current Cycle's understanding of defending the homeworld or linking up laws of the universe. Like with other fleets? It is also possible to gain Asari assets before the invasion "space magic" of Thessia the ending, you are supposed to get the feeling that are there's still so many undiscovered things in the cosmos.
** The Alliance only made sweeps
for some reason NOT recalled to defend Cerberus bugs, as stated by Traynor. So, aside from retrofitting, there is no scrubbing otherwise.
** I have problems with this too, but ''most'' of
the homeworld.
** Units separated
stuff Javik identifies can be discovered in a lab from studying individual cells. Species and sex can be determined from the main fleet without orders DNA, age can be approximately deduced from telomeres and the amount of biodegradation, and ''maybe'' one can make very rough guesses at the specimen's lifestyle from the exact composition of the cells. Emotions from direct touch to move due a living subject are even easier to comm buoy disruption. I always viewed it as simply detect. I've got nothing on extrapolations of emotions from minor cell samples, though. Maybe Javik just made some generic guesses about Grunt's personality based on him being a case of Shepard finding the unit/fleet, and relaying orders for them to link up with the fleets they got separated from. As for ''why'' they're in such out of the way places, just about all of those systems are in Reaper-controlled zones. They're likely hiding out for fear of being detected and destroyed/harvested, and unlike the Normandy, they young tank-grown krogan. I don't have a stealth system to hide their presence. Normandy can give them a link to their respective command via their QEC and can give them an opportunity to get to think the main mass relay and get out of the system and occupied cluster.
** Or you store the warships in pokeball-like devices in your cargo hold.
** Wrex, I choose you!
** The units you find are either stranded, hiding or retreating against the unstoppable Reaper onslaught. Most have no comms with their respective command, no knowledge of outside events and often no way of moving. The Normandy finding them means that
writers really thought this one through -- they get information, tips on probably just went by RuleOfCool, just like the safest route to leave Synthesis ending. And no, explaining it as biotics wouldn't solve anything, it would be a VoodooShark. Biotics are not a universal plot hole plug like [[StarWars the system, up-to-date info on where Force]], they are needed and likely help an application of mass effect fields for pseudo-telekinesis. They have nothing to do with repairs (even just a functioning power cell to get airborne).the "walking biolab" abilities Javik displays.



[[folder: Vendetta (Prothean VI)]]
* Vendetta was programmed to reveal the Citadel as the Catalyst only once the Crucible was completed. He explains this is to avert the Reapers' learning of the threat in advance and then taking control of the Citadel to prevent the Crucibleís use. But isn't "taking control of the Citadel" usually the very ''first'' thing the Reapers do? Why would he have been programmed with safeguards that assumed otherwise? The only Protheans with reason to believe the following cycle would prevent the Citadel-trap were the Ilos team, and they worked in complete isolation. Are we meant to assume the Citadel is normally left undefended after the Reapers make use of it?
** They were probably hoping that the next cycle would actually find and pay attention to their Beacons, and as such start preparing well before they reached the 50,000-year deadline.
** Pretty much. Javik was outright ''shocked'' that when a beacon ''was'' uncovered, that no one heeded their warnings. They thought that the beacons would serve as a perfectly functional warning.
** Fair point. Though if the assumption was that the Crucible would be developed sometime before the Reapers even arrived, it makes even less sense to program Vendetta to withhold information on the Catalyst for the reasons it offered.
** The only flaw in their cunning plan, then, was to assume that the Beacons would make it through intact in numbers greater than 1, and/or that anyone would actually ''find'' them before the Reapers start to send in Indoctrinated minions to destroy the evidence before it can be analyzed and disseminated. Probably should have left a couple near the worlds they KNEW sentient life was developing on...
** They ''did''. That's exactly why they left a beacon on Thessia in the first place: the Protheans were convinced that the asari would be able to stop the next phase of the cycle. And more than one beacon did survive into the next cycle. The one on Thessia, the one on Eden Prime, and the one on Virmire.
** Javik is pretty honest, at least with a cynical Shep, about the fact he's lying to keep Liara's spirits up. More importantly, [=ME=]1 told us that the warnings were sent out to the beacons by the Ilos team after the Reapers had returned to dark space. Though it's not especially implausible to think disparate groups of Protheans had the same ideas.

to:

[[folder: Vendetta (Prothean VI)]]
The Lawson Family]]
* Vendetta was programmed to reveal Late in the Citadel as game, we learn that Miranda and Oriana's father is a man named Henry Lawson. Now, while it's very ''strange'' to think Miranda would keep the Catalyst only once the Crucible was completed. He explains this is to avert the Reapers' learning surname of the threat in advance father she despised it can, perhaps, be justified. But why on earth does Oriana, who was kidnapped as a baby, raised by foster/adoptive parents and then taking control of hidden from her father ''again'' carry the Citadel to prevent the Crucibleís use. But isn't "taking control of the Citadel" usually the very ''first'' thing the Reapers do? Why would he have been programmed with safeguards Lawson name?
** You learn
that assumed otherwise? The only Protheans with reason to believe the following cycle would prevent the Citadel-trap were the Ilos team, and they worked in complete isolation. Are we meant to assume the Citadel is normally left undefended after the Reapers make use of it?
** They were probably hoping that the next cycle would actually find and pay attention to their Beacons, and as such start preparing well before they reached the 50,000-year deadline.
** Pretty much. Javik was outright ''shocked'' that when a beacon ''was'' uncovered, that no one heeded their warnings. They thought that the beacons would serve as a perfectly functional warning.
** Fair point. Though if the assumption was that the Crucible would be developed sometime before the Reapers even arrived, it makes even less sense to program Vendetta to withhold
information on the Catalyst for the reasons it offered.
** The only flaw in their cunning plan, then, was to assume
from your time during [=ME=]2 that the Beacons Henry Lawson is Miranda's father. he engineered both Miranda and Oriana to carry his genetic legacy. Miranda kidnapped/saved Oriana and gave her to a nice family. Henry busted this during Miranda's loyalty mission in [=ME=]2. The result should be that Oriana is saved and learns of her past and from then on keeps contact with Miranda. Reading your mail in [=ME=]2, Oriana will thank you and ask that you watch over Miranda and even P.S.S. "Stop reading Sheperd's mail, Miranda." This would make it suggest that Oriana is also extremely intelligent and resourceful and could have known about her past all along. It could be inferred that since the [=ME=]3 is through intact in numbers greater than 1, and/or that anyone would actually ''find'' them before the Reapers start to send in Indoctrinated minions to destroy the evidence before it can be analyzed and disseminated. Probably should have left a couple near the worlds they KNEW sentient life was developing on...
** They ''did''. That's exactly why they left a beacon on Thessia in the first place: the Protheans were convinced that the asari
eyes of Commander Sheperd, then Oriana would be able to stop known which is why her name is Lawson. Conversely, she has been found by Henry Lawson and so all illusion regarding her identity is broken.
** You do ''not'' learn
the next phase name of Miranda and Oriana's father in [=ME=]2. Before the third game, the prevalent opinion was that Miranda would have chosen a new surname for herself, distinct from that of the cycle. And more than one beacon did survive into father she despised. That this isn't the next cycle. case is odd but not a huge problem. She may have kept it to spite him. The one on Thessia, the one on Eden Prime, and the one on Virmire.
** Javik
question is pretty honest, at least with a cynical Shep, about the fact he's lying to keep Liara's spirits up. More importantly, [=ME=]1 told us why ''Oriana'' would change her surname from that of the warnings were sent out adoptive, loving parents who raised her to the beacons by the Ilos team "Lawson" after the Reapers had returned learning her history. It makes absolutely no sense to dark space. Though me at all.
** What's weird is when you think, 'Okay, so Miranda changed her name, but why did Oriana?' because,
it's not especially implausible just that Oriana changed it as well, but somehow, out of all the names in the world, she chose the EXACT same name as Miranda.
** I'm inclined
to think disparate groups of Protheans had that Miranda kept the same ideas.name either as a "screw you" to Henry, or to leverage the connection for her own gain. Oriana probably takes the name by the time of [=ME=]3 to be closer to Miranda.



[[folder: The Reapers' Rachni Queen]]
* Two questions here: why was the Rachni Queen able to resist the effects of the Reapers' indoctrination? Also, she made it clear that if she had any more children, they would be able to help build the Crucible, so why were ''they'' immune to the effects of the Reapers' indoctrination when the Ravagers she'd given birth to before were more than happy to attack everything in sight?
** Those Ravagers were heavily roboticised, so I'd say we weren't looking at Indoctrinated rachni so much as huskified rachni. As for resisting Indoctrination, no idea. Maybe a prepared HiveMind can fend off Indoctrination (that is why the saved queen can help you, while the new queen if you didn't save the first one betrays you the first chance she gets).
** Remember in the first game where the Queen tells you about "the ones who soured the songs of our ancestors". That creepy Russian scientist guy also said that the Rachni Queens are born with all the born with the memories of their fathers/mothers. I just assumed that the Rachni Queen you save had the memories of what was done to her people and had the time to figure out a way to dodge being indoctrinated.
** The queens can probably resist indoctrination, but lesser rachni like workers, soldiers, and brood warriors can't. If what happened to the rachni queen is any indicator, Sovereign took control of various nests' lesser rachni and imprisoned the queen, using her to breed more warriors.
** I think we can chalk it up to a mix of GeneticMemory and HiveMind. Rachni queens carry the memories of their ancestors, which might give them a resistance to indoctrination; on top of that, their GeneticMemory also seems like an offshoot of their HiveMind, and it's shown elsewhere that a HiveMind is capable of preventing indoctrination from taking hold. It's what allows Shiala, who still ''is'' indoctrinated, to not be overcome by the Reapers' will. The rachni enemies that Shepard encounters are all husks, which are a mix of organic tissue ''and'' synthetic material because of Reaper interference. The Queen herself is still fully organic, as are the children the Queen produces after being freed.
** We get at least a hint, if not outright confirmation, that hive minds are inherently resistant to indoctrination from Shiala. Assuming you helped Zhu's Hope out previously, she sends you an email revealing that they are fighting the invasion effectively because the Thorian's implantation has linked their minds permanently, and she also admits that she is still indoctrinated. I don't recall her exact words, but it is something along the lines of she is able to hear the Reapers' whispers, but the voices of the Zhu's Hope colonists are stronger and so the whispers can't affect her. As a result, it is safe to assume properly networked Rachni have an even stronger hive mind and are thus even more resistant to indoctrination. As for the queen herself, recall that Benezia was able to fight off indoctrination briefly. As the head of an absolutely massive hive mind, I for one think it is safe to say that Rachni Queens are by many orders of magnitude the most powerful-minded beings in existence, surpassing probably all asari matriarchs combined. The Queen from Noveria seems more annoyed and dismissive of indoctrination when we encounter her in 3 than concerned by it, and knowing how strong indoctrination is, any being that can consider it to be merely an annoyance is frighteningly powerful.
** Here's a thought: the Leviathan DLC postulates that the titular Leviathans may have been responsible for the Rachni Wars due to the use of their own mind control. Of course, this conflicts with the previous games, as it was theorized in-universe that the Reapers were behind it. Yet, even in Mass Effect 1, the setting establishes that powerful hive minds seem to have an immunity to indoctrination, and the Leviathans would've had no reason to set the Rachni against the Council races. Here's my theory: who says it wasn't both of them? Sovereign may have attempted to indoctrinate the Rachni to serve as his underlings, but they resisted. At the same time, the Leviathans tried to take control of the Rachni for whatever reason (either to gain an army to help fight the Reapers or just to prevent Sovereign from getting them). The Rachni may have been able to hold off one form of mind control with no ill effects, but the combined strength of two different forms of indoctrination coming from two powerful species (and likely giving conflicting orders) drove the Rachni into a frenzy, thus causing the Rachni Wars. I'll admit, this may belong in WMG, but considering that the Leviathan mind control caused the creation of the Awakened Collectors, this seems fairly plausible.

to:

[[folder: The Reapers' Rachni Queen]]
Normandy's weapons]]
* Two questions here: why was Several missions (the academy one comes to mind) involve the Rachni Queen Normandy not being able to resist the effects of the Reapers' indoctrination? Also, she made it clear that if she had any more children, they would be able to help build the Crucible, so why were ''they'' immune to the effects of the Reapers' indoctrination when the Ravagers she'd given birth to before were more than happy to attack everything in sight?
** Those Ravagers were heavily roboticised, so I'd say we weren't looking at Indoctrinated rachni so much as huskified rachni. As for resisting Indoctrination, no idea. Maybe a prepared HiveMind can fend off Indoctrination (that is why the saved queen can help you, while the new queen if
drop you didn't save the first one betrays closer or pick you the first chance she gets).
** Remember in the first game where the Queen tells you about "the ones who soured the songs of our ancestors". That creepy Russian scientist guy also said that the Rachni Queens are born with all the born with the memories of their fathers/mothers. I just assumed that the Rachni Queen you save had the memories of what was done to her people and had the time to figure out a way to dodge being indoctrinated.
** The queens can probably resist indoctrination, but lesser rachni like workers, soldiers, and brood warriors can't. If what happened to the rachni queen is any indicator, Sovereign took control of various nests' lesser rachni and imprisoned the queen, using her to breed more warriors.
** I think we can chalk it
up to a mix of GeneticMemory and HiveMind. Rachni queens carry the memories of their ancestors, which might give them a resistance to indoctrination; on top of that, their GeneticMemory also seems like an offshoot of their HiveMind, and it's shown elsewhere that a HiveMind is capable of preventing indoctrination from taking hold. It's what allows Shiala, who still ''is'' indoctrinated, to not be overcome by the Reapers' will. The rachni enemies that Shepard encounters are all husks, which are a mix of organic tissue ''and'' synthetic material because of Reaper a Cerberus ship is running interference. The Queen herself is Normandy still fully organic, as are the children the Queen produces after being freed.
** We get at least a hint, if not outright confirmation,
has those massive guns from Garrus' upgrade that hive minds are inherently resistant tore through the collector ship like butter. Has Cerberus' tech upgrades gotten to indoctrination from Shiala. Assuming you helped Zhu's Hope out previously, she sends you an email revealing the point that those aren't working anymore?
** At Grissom, the Cerberus cruiser was right next to the Academy. I shouldn't need to explain what would happen if the Thanix was used on the cruiser in such close proximity to the station, considering what happened tot he ''last'' ship
that they are fighting blew up with the invasion effectively Thanix.
** Joker said that there were about a dozen fighters around the Academy. Far too many for the Normandy to destroy alone without taking severe damage or damaging the Academy itself. Even if they could, alerting Cerberus to their presence would jeopardize the lives of everyone on the station, making the rescue mission mute.
** Except Alliance frigates in Mass Effect universe specialize in anti-fighter and anti-frigate warfare, especially if the Normandy is upgraded with better armor and shields (since we're assuming it has the Thanix Cannon..) a dozen fighters should not even be an issue. It even could take out the Cruiser with Javelin missiles instead of the Thanix - since they're installed on the "wings", not the bow, Normandy still has them. So basicly after Shepard had the kids rescued there was pretty much nothing that could have stopped the Normandy from decimating Cerberus units in the area.
** Really? Because the last time the Normandy fought a force consisting mostly of fighters, I distinctly recall it having to ''run away and hide in a debris field''.
** Let's not forget that Cerberus has copies of all your tech upgrades from [=ME=]2. So even if the Normandy has Silaris Armor, Cyclonic Barrier Technology, and a Thanix Cannon, ''so does that Cerberus cruiser''... and its a little bigger than you.
** ''Maybe.'' Just
because they had access to the Thorian's implantation has linked upgrades that you made doesn't mean they could apply them to every ship they own. Cerberus may have a mountain of cash, but those upgrades are expensive and applying them to dozens of ships may not be feasible. And the mission to the Cerberus base on Tuchanka would suggest that their minds permanently, and she ships weren't all upgraded: one good shot from the ground cannon tore the Cerberus cruiser apart.
** Said ground cannon is
also admits longer than a modern day aircraft carrier (and that's just the part we can see - it's likely partially underground), far longer than the Normandy. Even accounting for atmospheric slowdown on the projectile, it'd be a helluva lot more powerful than the piddly little gun on the Normandy, upgraded or not.
** Not to mention
that she when you're an indoctrinated Reaper agent and the End of Days is still indoctrinated. I nigh, you don't recall her exact words, but it is something along care about saving money for next year's budget. So yeah, shoot the lines of she is able to hear the Reapers' whispers, but the voices of the Zhu's Hope colonists are stronger and so the whispers wad, upgrade all your ships; go nuts -- you can't affect her. As a result, it is safe shoot ''credits'' at the Alliance.
** ''Piddly?'' It's derived from Reaper tech! It's supposed
to assume properly networked Rachni have an even stronger hive mind and are thus even be a Turian secret! It's quite possibly the most advanced weapon in Council space! It makes more resistant to indoctrination. As for the queen herself, recall that Benezia was able to fight off indoctrination briefly. As the head of an absolutely massive hive mind, I for one think it is safe sense to say that Rachni Queens are by many orders of magnitude the most powerful-minded beings in existence, surpassing probably all asari matriarchs combined. The Queen from Noveria Cerberus has countermeasures than to say that it's just a crappy weapon, though even that seems off, as it was more annoyed and dismissive of indoctrination when we encounter her in 3 than concerned by it, and knowing how strong indoctrination is, any being that can consider it enough to be merely an annoyance is frighteningly powerful.take out the collector cruiser with a couple hits.
** Here's a thought: the Leviathan DLC postulates The POSSIBILITY exists that the titular Leviathans may have been responsible for the Rachni Wars due to the use of their own mind control. Of course, this conflicts with the previous games, enemy ships are packing some serious heat, such as it was theorized in-universe that the Reapers were behind it. Yet, even Thanix cannons or Cyclonic Barriers. That in Mass Effect 1, the setting establishes that powerful hive minds seem to have an immunity to indoctrination, and the Leviathans would've had no of itself is a good reason to set the Rachni against the Council races. Here's my theory: who says it wasn't both of them? Sovereign may have attempted to indoctrinate the Rachni to serve as his underlings, but they resisted. At the same time, the Leviathans tried to take control of the Rachni for whatever reason (either to gain withdraw, rather than gamble on an army to help fight the Reapers or just to prevent Sovereign from getting them). The Rachni may have been able to hold off one form of mind control with no ill effects, but the combined strength of two different forms of indoctrination coming from two powerful species (and likely giving conflicting orders) drove the Rachni into a frenzy, thus causing the Rachni Wars. I'll admit, this may belong in WMG, but considering engagement that the Leviathan mind control caused the creation of the Awakened Collectors, this seems fairly plausible.can be avoided.



[[folder: "Chemistry of Life"]]
* I understand that in this day and age, biology is the go-to magical science, but how does Javik's "biochemical touch" even work? How does it distinguish between neurotransmitters and hormones of various unrelated races, allowing him to detect their feelings? How can he detect traces of Grunt - and his emotions - in the cargo hold, after the entire spaceship has been refitted and presumably UV'd, scrubbed and chemically cleaned to oblivion? Why not use something like "individual biotic aura" for Javik to feel? Biotics are already well-established within the ME universe and, at least for me, would be much easier to swallow than the bio-Technobabble.
** There's no evidence that the ship was scrubbed in any way. Hell, judging by the interior of the ship, they were still pulling bits of the Normandy's old guts out and replacing them. And "individual biotic aura" makes even ''less'' sense considering what we know about biotics.
** In fact, there's evidence for the ship not have been scrubbed (or completely taken apart, for that matter) at all, like the roaming space hamster and the lost ship models.
** The whole point of Javik's ability is to give the Protheans an aura of mystery and otherness, and to demonstrate that there are still major holes in the current Cycle's understanding of the laws of the universe. Like with the "space magic" of the ending, you are supposed to get the feeling that there's still so many undiscovered things in the cosmos.
** The Alliance only made sweeps for Cerberus bugs, as stated by Traynor. So, aside from retrofitting, there is no scrubbing otherwise.
** I have problems with this too, but ''most'' of the stuff Javik identifies can be discovered in a lab from studying individual cells. Species and sex can be determined from the DNA, age can be approximately deduced from telomeres and the amount of biodegradation, and ''maybe'' one can make very rough guesses at the specimen's lifestyle from the exact composition of the cells. Emotions from direct touch to a living subject are even easier to detect. I've got nothing on extrapolations of emotions from minor cell samples, though. Maybe Javik just made some generic guesses about Grunt's personality based on him being a young tank-grown krogan. I don't think the writers really thought this one through -- they probably just went by RuleOfCool, just like the Synthesis ending. And no, explaining it as biotics wouldn't solve anything, it would be a VoodooShark. Biotics are not a universal plot hole plug like [[StarWars the Force]], they are an application of mass effect fields for pseudo-telekinesis. They have nothing to do with the "walking biolab" abilities Javik displays.

to:

[[folder: "Chemistry of Life"]]
Legion's Sacrifice]]
* I understand that in this day and age, biology is the go-to magical science, but how does Javik's "biochemical touch" even work? How does it distinguish come Legion still dies if you make peace between neurotransmitters the quarians and hormones of various unrelated races, allowing him geth? It babled something about "disseminating personality matrix" before dropping dead. Even if his physical body experienced terminal overclocking, shouldn't his programs be able to detect their feelings? How can upload themselves away offsite, just fine? To me, it seems as if Bioware wanted to make it a BittersweetEnding just 'cause.
** It's because
he detect traces of Grunt - was the only Geth left with the Reaper Code and his emotions - in there wasn't enough time for the cargo hold, after average Geth to analyze and make it there own in time to help stop the Reapers, basically Legion had to be what amounts to an organ donor for them... that's my interpretation anyway.
** In order to upload the Reaper code to
the entire spaceship has been refitted and presumably UV'd, scrubbed and chemically cleaned Consensus, Legion would need to oblivion? Why disseminate every individual geth program in its body throughout the entire Consensus. It could not use something like "individual biotic aura" for Javik to feel? Biotics are already well-established within copy the ME universe and, at least for me, Reaper code directly; the only way to spread the upgrades would be much easier for individual programs to swallow than spread outward throughout the bio-Technobabble.
** There's no evidence
Consensus as a whole. The individual geth programs that the ship was scrubbed in any way. Hell, judging by the interior of the ship, they were made up Legion are likely still pulling bits of out there somewhere in the Normandy's old guts out Consensus, but the personality that made up the discrete gestalt entity that was "Legion" is gone; the moment those geth departed Legion's platform, "Legion" ceased to exist - and replacing them. And "individual biotic aura" makes even ''less'' sense considering what we know about biotics.
** In fact,
because it made all geth truly self-aware, there's evidence no way to reconstruct Legion.
** In the end, Legion uploads the final Reaper code so that will enable all Geth entities to become self-aware. Since he cannot directly upload to the Geth consensus, he must transmit it via satellite at the cost of his personal entity. The final act of him referring to his body as "I" rather than "we" shows that the Legion persona made the sacrifice
for all his fellow Geth. Sheperd even quizzically asks the ship not have Geth Prime if he is now Legion but the Prime corrects him and states that the one known as Legion has been scrubbed (or completely taken apart, for that matter) at all, terminated. Just like Morinth to Samara, you can copy the roaming space hamster form but not the absolute personality.
** That...Makes absolutely no sense given how computers work
and the lost ship models.
** The whole point of Javik's ability is to give the Protheans an aura of mystery and otherness, and to demonstrate that there
how geth are still major holes said to work in the current Cycle's understanding of the laws of the ''Franchise/MassEffect'' universe. Like with the "space magic" of the ending, you The geth do not have blue boxes, they're just raw code. This is to say, assuming they are supposed to get the feeling not philosophical zombies (beings that appear to be sentient but actually aren't), there's still so many undiscovered things in the cosmos.
** The Alliance only made sweeps for Cerberus bugs, as stated by Traynor. So, aside from retrofitting, there is
no scrubbing otherwise.
** I have problems with this too, but ''most'' of the stuff Javik identifies can be discovered in a lab from studying individual cells. Species and sex can be determined from the DNA, age can be approximately deduced from telomeres and the amount of biodegradation, and ''maybe'' one can make very rough guesses at the specimen's lifestyle from the exact composition of the cells. Emotions from direct touch to a living subject are even easier to detect. I've got nothing on extrapolations of emotions from minor cell samples, though. Maybe Javik
reason just made some generic guesses about Grunt's personality based on him being a young tank-grown krogan. I don't think copying the writers really thought this one through -- they probably just went by RuleOfCool, just like the Synthesis ending. And no, explaining it as biotics reaper code wouldn't solve anything, it work. Or you know, just copying the necessary data from legion onto every geth...
** The Geth are raw code, at first. The Reapers have enabled them to evolve to more specific lines of code which end up detailing their individuality. Geth were stated to be individuals in a general consensus, like different programs running on a computer yet still contained within the consensus. Legion forcing the Reaper code into their consensus granted a new form of AI and individuality, capable of differentiating each program and giving them new aspects of control and personality. Simply copying the code
would be a VoodooShark. Biotics are only have made the Geth into aspects of the Reaper Legion, not individuals in a universal plot hole plug like [[StarWars the Force]], nation as they have always wanted. "Does this unit have a soul?" is Legion's final question. The answer is yes, which shows that more than simple programs they are an application of mass effect fields for pseudo-telekinesis. They have nothing to do with the "walking biolab" abilities Javik displays.not so different.



[[folder: The Lawson Family]]
* Late in the game, we learn that Miranda and Oriana's father is a man named Henry Lawson. Now, while it's very ''strange'' to think Miranda would keep the surname of the father she despised it can, perhaps, be justified. But why on earth does Oriana, who was kidnapped as a baby, raised by foster/adoptive parents and then hidden from her father ''again'' carry the Lawson name?
** You learn that information from your time during [=ME=]2 that Henry Lawson is Miranda's father. he engineered both Miranda and Oriana to carry his genetic legacy. Miranda kidnapped/saved Oriana and gave her to a nice family. Henry busted this during Miranda's loyalty mission in [=ME=]2. The result should be that Oriana is saved and learns of her past and from then on keeps contact with Miranda. Reading your mail in [=ME=]2, Oriana will thank you and ask that you watch over Miranda and even P.S.S. "Stop reading Sheperd's mail, Miranda." This would suggest that Oriana is also extremely intelligent and resourceful and could have known about her past all along. It could be inferred that since the [=ME=]3 is through the eyes of Commander Sheperd, then Oriana would be known which is why her name is Lawson. Conversely, she has been found by Henry Lawson and so all illusion regarding her identity is broken.
** You do ''not'' learn the name of Miranda and Oriana's father in [=ME=]2. Before the third game, the prevalent opinion was that Miranda would have chosen a new surname for herself, distinct from that of the father she despised. That this isn't the case is odd but not a huge problem. She may have kept it to spite him. The question is why ''Oriana'' would change her surname from that of the adoptive, loving parents who raised her to "Lawson" after learning her history. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
** What's weird is when you think, 'Okay, so Miranda changed her name, but why did Oriana?' because, it's not just that Oriana changed it as well, but somehow, out of all the names in the world, she chose the EXACT same name as Miranda.
** I'm inclined to think that Miranda kept the name either as a "screw you" to Henry, or to leverage the connection for her own gain. Oriana probably takes the name by the time of [=ME=]3 to be closer to Miranda.

to:

[[folder: The Lawson Family]]
* Late in
Crucible and the game, we learn Conduit]]
* Ok, many aspects of the ending give me a serious headache, but for now I'll stick to two major problems:
** 1. Did the Reapers influence the design of the Conduit? I keep on getting confused whether or not
that Miranda is the case. If they didn't, then why would the designers make things so damn complicated by making it activated by the Catalyst and Oriana's father is thus make it have to merge with the Citadel? Unless I missed something...
** Conduits are simply scaled down versions of mass relays, nothing more nothing less.
** 2. Why would the Reapers build
a man named Henry Lawson. Now, while Conduit ON EARTH leading directly to the Citadel? Why give the resistance's ground troops access to it? If it was so that the Reapers could send up their own troops to defend the Citadel, why does Shepard not encounter any resistance (not counting the Illusive Man) aboard the station at all? Unless either the Catalyst was somehow manipulating things or the Conduit just somehow formed on its own or moved to Earth from Ilos, it really doesn't make any sense (of course, it's very ''strange'' to think Miranda would keep the surname of the father she despised it can, perhaps, be justified. But why on earth does Oriana, who was kidnapped as a baby, raised by foster/adoptive parents and then hidden from her father ''again'' carry the Lawson name?
** You learn
definitely not unique in that information from your time during [=ME=]2 sense).
** Shepard and Anderson theorize in the game
that Henry Lawson the Conduit was used to transport humans to the Citadel for "processing", presumably to create a new Reaper. Using a Conduit is Miranda's father. he engineered both Miranda and Oriana far more efficient than having to carry his genetic legacy. Miranda kidnapped/saved Oriana and gave her to a nice family. Henry busted this during Miranda's loyalty mission in [=ME=]2. everything up via ship. The result should be that Oriana is saved and learns of her past and from then on keeps contact with Miranda. Reading your mail in [=ME=]2, Oriana will thank you and ask that you watch over Miranda and even P.S.S. "Stop reading Sheperd's mail, Miranda." This would suggest that Oriana is Reapers also extremely intelligent and resourceful and could have known about her past all along. It could be inferred that since had no reason to guard the [=ME=]3 is through interior of the eyes of Commander Sheperd, then Oriana Citadel simply because they never thought anybody would be known which is why her name is Lawson. Conversely, she has been found by Henry Lawson and so all illusion regarding her identity is broken.
** You do ''not'' learn the name of Miranda and Oriana's father in [=ME=]2. Before the third game, the prevalent opinion was that Miranda would have chosen a new surname for herself, distinct from that of the father she despised. That this isn't the case is odd but not a huge problem. She may have kept it
able to spite him. The question is why ''Oriana'' would change her surname from that of the adoptive, loving parents who raised her to "Lawson" after learning her history. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
** What's weird is when you think, 'Okay, so Miranda changed her name, but why did Oriana?' because, it's not just that Oriana changed it as well, but somehow, out of all the names in the world, she chose the EXACT same name as Miranda.
** I'm inclined to think that Miranda kept the name either as a "screw you" to Henry, or to leverage the connection for her own gain. Oriana probably takes the name by the time of [=ME=]3 to be closer to Miranda.
reach it.



[[folder: Normandy's weapons]]
* Several missions (the academy one comes to mind) involve the Normandy not being able to drop you closer or pick you up because a Cerberus ship is running interference. The Normandy still has those massive guns from Garrus' upgrade that tore through the collector ship like butter. Has Cerberus' tech upgrades gotten to the point that those aren't working anymore?
** At Grissom, the Cerberus cruiser was right next to the Academy. I shouldn't need to explain what would happen if the Thanix was used on the cruiser in such close proximity to the station, considering what happened tot he ''last'' ship that they blew up with the Thanix.
** Joker said that there were about a dozen fighters around the Academy. Far too many for the Normandy to destroy alone without taking severe damage or damaging the Academy itself. Even if they could, alerting Cerberus to their presence would jeopardize the lives of everyone on the station, making the rescue mission mute.
** Except Alliance frigates in Mass Effect universe specialize in anti-fighter and anti-frigate warfare, especially if the Normandy is upgraded with better armor and shields (since we're assuming it has the Thanix Cannon..) a dozen fighters should not even be an issue. It even could take out the Cruiser with Javelin missiles instead of the Thanix - since they're installed on the "wings", not the bow, Normandy still has them. So basicly after Shepard had the kids rescued there was pretty much nothing that could have stopped the Normandy from decimating Cerberus units in the area.
** Really? Because the last time the Normandy fought a force consisting mostly of fighters, I distinctly recall it having to ''run away and hide in a debris field''.
** Let's not forget that Cerberus has copies of all your tech upgrades from [=ME=]2. So even if the Normandy has Silaris Armor, Cyclonic Barrier Technology, and a Thanix Cannon, ''so does that Cerberus cruiser''... and its a little bigger than you.
** ''Maybe.'' Just because they had access to the upgrades that you made doesn't mean they could apply them to every ship they own. Cerberus may have a mountain of cash, but those upgrades are expensive and applying them to dozens of ships may not be feasible. And the mission to the Cerberus base on Tuchanka would suggest that their ships weren't all upgraded: one good shot from the ground cannon tore the Cerberus cruiser apart.
** Said ground cannon is also longer than a modern day aircraft carrier (and that's just the part we can see - it's likely partially underground), far longer than the Normandy. Even accounting for atmospheric slowdown on the projectile, it'd be a helluva lot more powerful than the piddly little gun on the Normandy, upgraded or not.
** Not to mention that when you're an indoctrinated Reaper agent and the End of Days is nigh, you don't care about saving money for next year's budget. So yeah, shoot the wad, upgrade all your ships; go nuts -- you can't shoot ''credits'' at the Alliance.
** ''Piddly?'' It's derived from Reaper tech! It's supposed to be a Turian secret! It's quite possibly the most advanced weapon in Council space! It makes more sense to say that Cerberus has countermeasures than to say that it's just a crappy weapon, though even that seems off, as it was more than enough to take out the collector cruiser with a couple hits.
** The POSSIBILITY exists that the enemy ships are packing some serious heat, such as Thanix cannons or Cyclonic Barriers. That in and of itself is a good reason to withdraw, rather than gamble on an engagement that can be avoided.

to:

[[folder: Normandy's weapons]]
Earth Death Toll Numbers]]
* Several missions (the academy one comes to mind) involve the Normandy not being able to drop you closer or pick you up because a Cerberus ship is running interference. The Normandy still has those massive guns from Garrus' upgrade Something that tore through surprised me was just how (relatively) low the collector ship like butter. Has Cerberus' tech upgrades gotten death toll numbers given for Earth seemed to be. In the point that those aren't working anymore?
** At Grissom, the Cerberus cruiser was right next to the Academy. I shouldn't need to explain what would happen if the Thanix was used on the cruiser in such close proximity to the station, considering what happened tot he ''last'' ship that they blew up with the Thanix.
** Joker said that there were about a dozen fighters around the Academy. Far too many
trailer, we are given totals for the Normandy to destroy alone without taking severe damage or damaging the Academy itself. Even if they could, alerting Cerberus to their presence would jeopardize the lives of everyone on the station, making the rescue mission mute.
** Except Alliance frigates in Mass Effect universe specialize in anti-fighter
first day (2 million casualties) and anti-frigate warfare, especially if the Normandy is upgraded with better armor and shields (since we're assuming it has the Thanix Cannon..first week (7 million casualties.) a dozen fighters should not even be an issue. It even could take out the Cruiser with Javelin missiles instead of the Thanix - since they're installed on the "wings", not the bow, Normandy still has them. So basicly after That tells us that Shepard had the kids rescued there was pretty much nothing that could have stopped the Normandy from decimating Cerberus units has been out and about in the area.
** Really? Because the last time the Normandy fought
galaxy for at least a force consisting mostly of fighters, I distinctly recall it having to ''run away and hide in a debris field''.
** Let's not forget
week. So let's say that Cerberus has copies of all your tech upgrades from [=ME=]2. So even if is a good average for the Normandy has Silaris Armor, Cyclonic Barrier Technology, Reapers (considering they got what amounts to a surprise attack and a Thanix Cannon, ''so does took out 2 million in the first day alone.) That means that Cerberus cruiser''... and its a little bigger than you.
** ''Maybe.'' Just because they had access to the upgrades that you made doesn't mean they could apply them to every ship they own. Cerberus may have a mountain of cash, but those upgrades are expensive and applying them to dozens of ships may not be feasible. And the mission to the Cerberus base on Tuchanka
Shepard would suggest have to be out and about in the galaxy for 8-9 WEEKS just for the Reapers to match the total casualties that their ships weren't all upgraded: one good shot from the ground cannon tore the Cerberus cruiser apart.
** Said ground cannon is also longer than a modern day aircraft carrier (and that's just the part we can see - it's likely partially underground), far longer than the Normandy. Even accounting for atmospheric slowdown on the projectile, it'd be a helluva lot more powerful than the piddly little gun on the Normandy, upgraded or not.
**
occurred during World War 2. (60 million estimated.) Not to mention the fact that when you're an indoctrinated Reaper agent Earth's population during the time of the games is at 11 billion while it was only 2.5 billion during the 1940s, so there are more than four times as many people around to kill. Granted, the Reapers wanted to capture and process humans to make the End of Days is nigh, you don't care about saving money for next year's budget. So yeah, shoot the wad, upgrade all your ships; go nuts -- you can't shoot ''credits'' at the Alliance.
** ''Piddly?''
generation of reapers, so it's possible they weren't doing as much damage as they otherwise could have. It's derived from also likely that the numbers "Big Ben" gives in the trailer aren't completely accurate. But it still surprises me just how low those totals seem to be.
** Like you said, they're trying to harvest humanity, not obliterate it. Emily Wong notes on her twitter that if they wanted humanity dead, they'd have just nuked everything.
** True enough, but why not resort to their "nuking" strategy when they began to lose the battle for Palaven? While the Reapers were bringing Turians into their forces as Marauders, Harbinger says in the 2nd game that they are considered "too primitive" to be valuable to
Reaper tech! It's supposed to be a Turian secret! It's quite possibly reproduction. It would have severely weakened the most advanced weapon in Council space! It makes more sense to say that Cerberus has countermeasures than to say that it's just a crappy weapon, though even that seems off, as it last stand on Earth had the Reapers simply decided taking Palaven was more trouble than enough it was worth and bombed it to take out hell and back. This seems to have been their strategy in the collector cruiser with a couple hits.past against species they considered unfit, as all of the formerly-inhabited planet descriptions that mention "orbital bombardment" show.
** The POSSIBILITY exists numbers in the trailer are most likely from London alone. As I recall, the Reaper harvester vessel can process 1.86 million individuals in a week, which would make for a good estimate if it was only a few weeks at this point. You shouldn't take Harbinger's words at face value concerning the turians either; they may be too primitive to make a capital ship, but they should still be good enough material for a destroyer, since those things are made out of "lesser" species according to the Codex. Personally I'm assuming that the enemy Reapers bombard worlds from the orbit ''after'' the harvesting is complete to hide the traces of their involvement, not before when there's still material to be collected. Remember, the Reapers inevitably win any war of attrition, so they're not in a hurry. Time and indoctrination are on their side.
** The Reapers were never "losing" the battle for Palaven. They were winning until the krogan intervened, but even then all they did was slow the Reapers down enough that the turians could devote resources to the assault on Earth.
** Not really. The Turians and Reapers were more at a stalemate, as while the Reapers were there in force, the fleet sent was still not nearly as large as the bulk of the Reaper forces, concentrated on Earth. It's why Humanity's fleets, comparable in power to the Turians', were utterly obliterated(in the case of the Fourth and Second) or badly hit and damaged(Third, First, and Fifth). Plus, the krogans' entrance turned the tide to where the Turians were winning the battle. In terms of space superiority, the Turians and Reapers were also at a stalemate, as the Turians were definitely able to match the Reapers almost kill for kill considering that they had 56 dreadnoughts to Humanity's paltry 7.
** The human fleet is nowhere near as strong as the turian fleet. I doubt that it's even 10% as strong, consider it's around a thousand and the turian fleet is well over ten thousand. And the Reapers still managed to defeat the turians in a few months. That's way better compared to the humans, asari, and batarians, none of which lasted a day.
** Well winning/losing depends on how you gauge it. The Turians initial assault was really the most successful action against the Reapers by any single species (the Reapers lost two Capital
ships are packing some serious heat, such as Thanix cannons or Cyclonic Barriers. in the first assault!) but they still lost the planet, the Reaper's were smart enough to realise that by rushing past and bombing/ground assaulting key areas on Palaven it made the battle in the sky virtually immaterial. A stalemate at this point is fine for the Reapers, they have access to the planet and the Turian supply lines, and the Turians canít risk the full assault needed to dislodge them.
** Basically, the numbers from the trailer do not add up. According to the reaper war codex, four major cities counted "as in the low millions" were immediately destroyed: Adelaide (roughly 1.3 million today), Hamburg (1.8 million), Al Jubail (400k), Fort Worth (750k).
That in and of itself is a good reason to withdraw, rather than gamble on an engagement alone accounts for roughly 4 million deaths instantly by todays numbers. The deescriptor shows, that can be avoided. at least Al Jubail and Fort Worth have grown (or centers are counted).



[[folder: Legion's Sacrifice]]
* How come Legion still dies if you make peace between the quarians and geth? It babled something about "disseminating personality matrix" before dropping dead. Even if his physical body experienced terminal overclocking, shouldn't his programs be able to upload themselves away offsite, just fine? To me, it seems as if Bioware wanted to make it a BittersweetEnding just 'cause.
** It's because he was the only Geth left with the Reaper Code and there wasn't enough time for the average Geth to analyze and make it there own in time to help stop the Reapers, basically Legion had to be what amounts to an organ donor for them... that's my interpretation anyway.
** In order to upload the Reaper code to the entire Consensus, Legion would need to disseminate every individual geth program in its body throughout the entire Consensus. It could not copy the Reaper code directly; the only way to spread the upgrades would be for individual programs to spread outward throughout the Consensus as a whole. The individual geth programs that made up Legion are likely still out there somewhere in the Consensus, but the personality that made up the discrete gestalt entity that was "Legion" is gone; the moment those geth departed Legion's platform, "Legion" ceased to exist - and because it made all geth truly self-aware, there's no way to reconstruct Legion.
** In the end, Legion uploads the final Reaper code so that will enable all Geth entities to become self-aware. Since he cannot directly upload to the Geth consensus, he must transmit it via satellite at the cost of his personal entity. The final act of him referring to his body as "I" rather than "we" shows that the Legion persona made the sacrifice for all his fellow Geth. Sheperd even quizzically asks the Geth Prime if he is now Legion but the Prime corrects him and states that the one known as Legion has been terminated. Just like Morinth to Samara, you can copy the form but not the absolute personality.
** That...Makes absolutely no sense given how computers work and how geth are said to work in the ''Franchise/MassEffect'' universe. The geth do not have blue boxes, they're just raw code. This is to say, assuming they are not philosophical zombies (beings that appear to be sentient but actually aren't), there's no reason just copying the reaper code wouldn't work. Or you know, just copying the necessary data from legion onto every geth...
** The Geth are raw code, at first. The Reapers have enabled them to evolve to more specific lines of code which end up detailing their individuality. Geth were stated to be individuals in a general consensus, like different programs running on a computer yet still contained within the consensus. Legion forcing the Reaper code into their consensus granted a new form of AI and individuality, capable of differentiating each program and giving them new aspects of control and personality. Simply copying the code would only have made the Geth into aspects of the Reaper Legion, not individuals in a nation as they have always wanted. "Does this unit have a soul?" is Legion's final question. The answer is yes, which shows that more than simple programs they are not so different.

to:

[[folder: Legion's Sacrifice]]
Missed a step, Doctor?]]
* How come Legion When Thane is fatally wounded by Kai-Leng, he stays alive long enough to be carted to the hospital and recieve rudimentary treatment. It couldn't save him, but it gave him time to say his goodbyes. However, his clothes in the hospital were still dies if you make peace between the quarians one ''he'd gotten stabbed in''. Did the staff remove his bloodstained and geth? It babled something about "disseminating personality matrix" before dropping dead. Even if his physical body experienced terminal overclocking, shouldn't his programs be able to upload themselves away offsite, just fine? To me, torn coat, perform surgery, and then put it seems as if Bioware wanted to make it a BittersweetEnding just 'cause.
**
back on later. It's because he was not as if they don't use hospital gowns, since the only Geth left with the Reaper Code Virmire suvivor recieves one and there wasn't enough time for the average Geth to analyze and make it there own in time to help stop the Reapers, basically Legion had to be what amounts to an organ donor for them... that's my interpretation anyway.
** In order to upload the Reaper code to the entire Consensus, Legion
a human/asari gown would need to disseminate every individual geth program in its body throughout the entire Consensus. It could not copy the Reaper code directly; the only way to spread the upgrades would be for individual programs to spread outward throughout the Consensus as a whole. The individual geth programs that made up Legion are likely still out there somewhere in the Consensus, but the personality that made up the discrete gestalt entity that was "Legion" is gone; the moment those geth departed Legion's platform, "Legion" ceased to exist - and because it made all geth truly self-aware, there's no way to reconstruct Legion.
** In the end, Legion uploads the final Reaper code so that will enable all Geth entities to become self-aware. Since he cannot directly upload to the Geth consensus, he must transmit it via satellite at the cost of his personal entity. The final act of him referring to his body as "I" rather than "we" shows that the Legion persona made the sacrifice for all his fellow Geth. Sheperd even quizzically asks the Geth Prime if he is now Legion but the Prime corrects him and states that the one known as Legion has been terminated. Just like Morinth to Samara, you can copy the form but not the absolute personality.
** That...Makes absolutely no sense given how computers work and how geth are said to work in the ''Franchise/MassEffect'' universe. The geth do not have blue boxes, they're
fit just raw code. This is to say, assuming they fine. So, why not?
** Unfortunately, all drell character models use the same clothes. (compare Kolyat, Feron, and Thane. Their outfits
are not philosophical zombies (beings that appear to be sentient but actually aren't), there's no reason just copying the reaper code wouldn't work. Or you know, just copying the necessary data from legion onto every geth...
** The Geth are raw code, at first. The Reapers have enabled them to evolve to more specific lines
of code which end up detailing their individuality. Geth were stated to be individuals in a general consensus, like different programs running on a computer yet still contained within colors but are essentially the consensus. Legion forcing same) Bioware probably just didn't choose to give Thane a unique character model for the Reaper code into their consensus granted hospital.
** He was brought to emergency surgery immediately after the stabbing. As I understand, in those circumstances hospital gowns are
a new form waste of AI time; just cut off whatever is in the way and individuality, capable of differentiating each program and giving them new aspects of control and personality. Simply copying the code would only have made the Geth into aspects of the Reaper Legion, not individuals in a nation as they have always wanted. "Does this unit have a soul?" is Legion's final question. The answer is yes, which shows that more than simple programs they are not so different.get to work.



[[folder: The Crucible and the Conduit]]
* Ok, many aspects of the ending give me a serious headache, but for now I'll stick to two major problems:
** 1. Did the Reapers influence the design of the Conduit? I keep on getting confused whether or not that is the case. If they didn't, then why would the designers make things so damn complicated by making it activated by the Catalyst and thus make it have to merge with the Citadel? Unless I missed something...
** Conduits are simply scaled down versions of mass relays, nothing more nothing less.
** 2. Why would the Reapers build a Conduit ON EARTH leading directly to the Citadel? Why give the resistance's ground troops access to it? If it was so that the Reapers could send up their own troops to defend the Citadel, why does Shepard not encounter any resistance (not counting the Illusive Man) aboard the station at all? Unless either the Catalyst was somehow manipulating things or the Conduit just somehow formed on its own or moved to Earth from Ilos, it really doesn't make any sense (of course, it's definitely not unique in that sense).
** Shepard and Anderson theorize in the game that the Conduit was used to transport humans to the Citadel for "processing", presumably to create a new Reaper. Using a Conduit is far more efficient than having to carry everything up via ship. The Reapers also had no reason to guard the interior of the Citadel simply because they never thought anybody would be able to reach it.

to:

[[folder: The Crucible and the Conduit]]
Have to space it?]]
* Ok, many aspects of the ending give me If you betray Wrex, he comes at you with a serious headache, shotgun but for now I'll stick to two major problems:
** 1. Did the Reapers influence the design of the Conduit? I keep on
ultimately ends up getting confused whether or not shot to death through a window. Bailey comments that is the case. If they didn't, then why would the designers make things so damn complicated by making it activated by the Catalyst Wrex may be too big for a coffin and thus make it they'd have to merge with the Citadel? Unless I missed something...
** Conduits
space him. Why? The Citadel has Krogan passing through there fairly often, and Elcor, which are simply scaled down versions of mass relays, nothing more nothing less.
** 2. Why would the Reapers build a Conduit ON EARTH leading directly to the Citadel? Why give the resistance's ground troops access to it? If it was
bigger than Krogan, are Citadel members. Surely they'd have those guys die every so that the Reapers could send up their own troops to defend the Citadel, why does Shepard often. Do both Krogan and Elcor not encounter any resistance (not counting the Illusive Man) aboard the station at all? Unless either the Catalyst was somehow manipulating things or the Conduit just somehow formed on its own or moved to Earth from Ilos, it really doesn't make any sense (of course, it's definitely not unique in that sense).
have a tradition of burial?
** Shepard and Anderson theorize in the game that the Conduit was used to transport humans to In case you didn't notice, the Citadel for "processing", presumably is kind of at war. Resources in general are going to create a new Reaper. Using a Conduit is far more efficient than having to carry everything up via ship. The Reapers also had no reason to guard be limited, and the interior amount of coffins the Citadel simply because they never thought anybody would have in stock for krogan would be able to reach it. limited too. Even less if krogan troops are moving off of Tuchanka and fighting the Reapers.




[[folder: Earth Death Toll Numbers]]
* Something that surprised me was just how (relatively) low the death toll numbers given for Earth seemed to be. In the trailer, we are given totals for the first day (2 million casualties) and first week (7 million casualties.) That tells us that Shepard has been out and about in the galaxy for at least a week. So let's say that is a good average for the Reapers (considering they got what amounts to a surprise attack and took out 2 million in the first day alone.) That means that Shepard would have to be out and about in the galaxy for 8-9 WEEKS just for the Reapers to match the total casualties that occurred during World War 2. (60 million estimated.) Not to mention the fact that Earth's population during the time of the games is at 11 billion while it was only 2.5 billion during the 1940s, so there are more than four times as many people around to kill. Granted, the Reapers wanted to capture and process humans to make the next generation of reapers, so it's possible they weren't doing as much damage as they otherwise could have. It's also likely that the numbers "Big Ben" gives in the trailer aren't completely accurate. But it still surprises me just how low those totals seem to be.
** Like you said, they're trying to harvest humanity, not obliterate it. Emily Wong notes on her twitter that if they wanted humanity dead, they'd have just nuked everything.
** True enough, but why not resort to their "nuking" strategy when they began to lose the battle for Palaven? While the Reapers were bringing Turians into their forces as Marauders, Harbinger says in the 2nd game that they are considered "too primitive" to be valuable to Reaper reproduction. It would have severely weakened the last stand on Earth had the Reapers simply decided taking Palaven was more trouble than it was worth and bombed it to hell and back. This seems to have been their strategy in the past against species they considered unfit, as all of the formerly-inhabited planet descriptions that mention "orbital bombardment" show.
** The numbers in the trailer are most likely from London alone. As I recall, the Reaper harvester vessel can process 1.86 million individuals in a week, which would make for a good estimate if it was only a few weeks at this point. You shouldn't take Harbinger's words at face value concerning the turians either; they may be too primitive to make a capital ship, but they should still be good enough material for a destroyer, since those things are made out of "lesser" species according to the Codex. Personally I'm assuming that the Reapers bombard worlds from the orbit ''after'' the harvesting is complete to hide the traces of their involvement, not before when there's still material to be collected. Remember, the Reapers inevitably win any war of attrition, so they're not in a hurry. Time and indoctrination are on their side.
** The Reapers were never "losing" the battle for Palaven. They were winning until the krogan intervened, but even then all they did was slow the Reapers down enough that the turians could devote resources to the assault on Earth.
** Not really. The Turians and Reapers were more at a stalemate, as while the Reapers were there in force, the fleet sent was still not nearly as large as the bulk of the Reaper forces, concentrated on Earth. It's why Humanity's fleets, comparable in power to the Turians', were utterly obliterated(in the case of the Fourth and Second) or badly hit and damaged(Third, First, and Fifth). Plus, the krogans' entrance turned the tide to where the Turians were winning the battle. In terms of space superiority, the Turians and Reapers were also at a stalemate, as the Turians were definitely able to match the Reapers almost kill for kill considering that they had 56 dreadnoughts to Humanity's paltry 7.
** The human fleet is nowhere near as strong as the turian fleet. I doubt that it's even 10% as strong, consider it's around a thousand and the turian fleet is well over ten thousand. And the Reapers still managed to defeat the turians in a few months. That's way better compared to the humans, asari, and batarians, none of which lasted a day.
** Well winning/losing depends on how you gauge it. The Turians initial assault was really the most successful action against the Reapers by any single species (the Reapers lost two Capital ships in the first assault!) but they still lost the planet, the Reaper's were smart enough to realise that by rushing past and bombing/ground assaulting key areas on Palaven it made the battle in the sky virtually immaterial. A stalemate at this point is fine for the Reapers, they have access to the planet and the Turian supply lines, and the Turians canít risk the full assault needed to dislodge them.
** Basically, the numbers from the trailer do not add up. According to the reaper war codex, four major cities counted "as in the low millions" were immediately destroyed: Adelaide (roughly 1.3 million today), Hamburg (1.8 million), Al Jubail (400k), Fort Worth (750k). That alone accounts for roughly 4 million deaths instantly by todays numbers. The deescriptor shows, that at least Al Jubail and Fort Worth have grown (or centers are counted).

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\n[[folder: Earth Death Toll Numbers]]
Tarquin Victus big screw-up]]
* Something What, exactly, was Tarquin Victus major screw-up that surprised me he is repeatedly accused of by his soldiers and your squad members? As far as I can tell, he was just how (relatively) low the death toll numbers given for Earth seemed to be. In the trailer, we are given totals for the first day (2 million casualties) faced with two equally bad alternatives: Attack a dug-in enemy head-on and first week (7 million casualties.) That tells us that Shepard has been out and about in the galaxy for at least a week. So let's say that is a good average for the Reapers (considering they got what amounts to a surprise attack and took out 2 million in the first day alone.) That means that Shepard would have to be out and about in the galaxy for 8-9 WEEKS just for the Reapers to match the total suffer guaranteed casualties OR try a risky approach which has at least some chance of surprising the enemy troops at the price of high vulnerability before the landing. I just don't see how he is supposed to have screwed up for chosing caution over suicide. The only reason I can think of is that occurred during World War 2. (60 million estimated.) Not to mention he acted against the fact that Earth's population during the time of the games is at 11 billion while it was only 2.5 billion during the 1940s, so there are more than four times as many people around to kill. Granted, the Reapers wanted to capture and process humans to make the next generation of reapers, so it's possible they weren't doing as much damage as they otherwise could have. It's also likely that the numbers "Big Ben" gives in the trailer aren't completely accurate. But it still surprises me just how low those totals seem to be.
** Like you said, they're trying to harvest humanity, not obliterate it. Emily Wong notes on her twitter that if they wanted humanity dead, they'd have just nuked everything.
** True enough, but why not resort to their "nuking"
Turians main strategy when to attack the enemy head-on with overwhelming force, or am I missing something here?
** It was less that he made a bad call so much as he made a call that got his team epically massacred. Any commander who makes a decision that gets virtually the entire unit wiped out (especially if it goes against standing doctrine) will get in deep shit.
** Especially if
they began fail to lose complete the battle for Palaven? While mission to boot. With the Reapers were bringing Turians into their forces as Marauders, Harbinger says in "Victory at any cost" mentality of the 2nd game that they are considered "too primitive" turians, if Victus had managed to be valuable to Reaper reproduction. It complete his mission at the expense of most of his team there would have severely weakened the last stand on Earth had the Reapers simply decided taking Palaven was more trouble than it was worth and bombed it to hell and back. This seems to probably have been their strategy in the past against species they considered unfit, as all of the formerly-inhabited planet descriptions that mention "orbital bombardment" show.
** The numbers in the trailer are most likely from London alone. As I recall, the Reaper harvester vessel can process 1.86 million individuals in a week, which would make for a good estimate if it was only a few weeks at this point. You shouldn't take Harbinger's words at face value concerning the turians either; they may be too primitive to make a capital ship,
no complaints, but they should still be good enough material for a destroyer, since those things are made out of "lesser" species according got colossally screwed before even getting close to the Codex. Personally I'm assuming their target.
** It was implied
that the Reapers bombard worlds from the orbit ''after'' the harvesting is complete to hide the traces of their involvement, not before when there's still material to be collected. Remember, the Reapers inevitably win any war of attrition, so they're not in a hurry. Time and indoctrination are on their side.
** The Reapers
enemy they were never "losing" the battle for Palaven. They were winning until the krogan intervened, but even then all they did going to face head on was slow the Reapers down enough that the turians could devote resources to the assault on Earth.
** Not really. The Turians and Reapers were more at a stalemate, as while the Reapers were there in force, the fleet sent was still not nearly as large as the bulk of
Cerberus. While tough, few consider them tougher than the Reaper forces, concentrated on Earth. It's why Humanity's fleets, comparable in power and they stumbled onto a crapload of them when trying to flank Cerberus. Think of it as trying to sneak past a squad guarding a door and falling into a room filled with dozens of enemies instead. Logical that you would act that way, but undeniably worse than if you had just stuck to the Turians', were utterly obliterated(in agreed-upon strategy.
** His mistake was not in suggesting alternate tactics, after all his own father was notorious for using non standard methods, and it got him close enough to be in line for Primarch. His mistake was that
the case of tactic he chose was wrong. By looking at the Fourth weapons and Second) or badly hit and damaged(Third, First, and Fifth). Plus, the krogans' entrance turned the tide parts you salvage before getting to where the Turians were winning the battle. In terms of space superiority, the Turians and Reapers were also at a stalemate, as the Turians were definitely able to match the Reapers almost kill for kill considering Victus, you will notice that they had 56 dreadnoughts to Humanity's paltry 7.
** The human fleet is nowhere near as strong as the turian fleet. I doubt that it's even 10% as strong, consider it's around a thousand
are all light weapons - submachine guns and the turian fleet is well over ten thousand. And the Reapers still managed light Phaeston. Light weapons are intended to defeat the turians in be used by troops who maneuver a few months. That's way better compared to the humans, asari, lot instead of taking cover, popping up and batarians, none of which lasted a day.
** Well winning/losing depends on how you gauge it. The Turians initial assault was really the most successful action against the Reapers by any single species (the Reapers lost two Capital ships in the first assault!) but they still lost the planet, the Reaper's were smart enough to realise that by rushing past and bombing/ground assaulting key areas on Palaven it made the
shooting as with battle in rifles (marksman rifles), LMGs and sniper rifles. By taking them into the sky virtually immaterial. A stalemate at this point is fine for the Reapers, hollows, these troops got boxed in and picked off. If they'd had heavier rifles and shotguns, they would have access been able to the planet and the Turian supply lines, and the Turians canít risk the full assault needed to dislodge them.
** Basically, the numbers from the trailer do not add up. According to the reaper war codex, four major cities counted "as
punch through. The fact that Victus put his troops in the low millions" a situation they were immediately destroyed: Adelaide (roughly 1.3 million today), Hamburg (1.8 million), Al Jubail (400k), Fort Worth (750k). That alone accounts for roughly 4 million deaths instantly by todays numbers. The deescriptor shows, that at least Al Jubail and Fort Worth have grown (or centers are counted).ill equipped for, was his big screw up.



[[folder: Missed a step, Doctor?]]
* When Thane is fatally wounded by Kai-Leng, he stays alive long enough to be carted to the hospital and recieve rudimentary treatment. It couldn't save him, but it gave him time to say his goodbyes. However, his clothes in the hospital were still the one ''he'd gotten stabbed in''. Did the staff remove his bloodstained and torn coat, perform surgery, and then put it back on later. It's not as if they don't use hospital gowns, since the Virmire suvivor recieves one and a human/asari gown would fit just fine. So, why not?
** Unfortunately, all drell character models use the same clothes. (compare Kolyat, Feron, and Thane. Their outfits are of different colors but are essentially the same) Bioware probably just didn't choose to give Thane a unique character model for the hospital.
** He was brought to emergency surgery immediately after the stabbing. As I understand, in those circumstances hospital gowns are a waste of time; just cut off whatever is in the way and get to work.

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[[folder: Missed Tali and spiders]]
* How does Tali even know what
a step, Doctor?]]
* When Thane is fatally wounded by Kai-Leng, he stays alive long enough to be carted to
spider is? Has she encountered some on the hospital and recieve rudimentary treatment. It couldn't save him, but it gave him time Citadel? On Omega? In human colonies?
** Rachni + Extranet.
** Apparently multiple planets have animal species that can be described as "fish" (IE, "Thessian Sunfish"). I wouldn't be surprised if there were eight limbed arthropods on other planets... or she could have just future-googled "spider".
** Tali clearly knows what an insect is (otherwise she wouldn't be able
to say his goodbyes. However, his clothes Rannoch has no insects), it's no stretch to think she knows what a spider is. Also, even though Rannoch has no insects, it's interesting to note that Tali '''never visited Rannoch in her life'''. For all we know, insects are a very common concern of the hospital were still the one ''he'd gotten stabbed in''. Did the staff remove his bloodstained and torn coat, perform surgery, and then put it back on later. It's not Quarians as if they don't use hospital gowns, since the Virmire suvivor recieves one are today, specially considering they usually buy used ships.
** Any translator can tell you that there are words or concepts that can't be fully translated into other languages
and a human/asari gown must be approximated. When human talk about "spiders", Tali would fit just fine. So, why not?
** Unfortunately, all drell character models use the same clothes. (compare Kolyat, Feron, and Thane. Their outfits are of different colors but are essentially the same) Bioware probably just didn't choose to
hear it as her word for whatever species approximate spiders in her homeworld. Even if there is no such species, a good Universal Translator would readily give Thane an approximate definition easily understood in her language. So, there will be no difficulty in understanding what a unique character model for the hospital."spider" is.
** He was brought to emergency surgery immediately after A better question would be why people in-game keep comparing the stabbing. As I understand, in those circumstances hospital gowns are a waste rachni to spiders. The queen did look kind of time; just cut off whatever is spiderish, but in the first game she and all of her children looked very much like giant space prawns. If anything, they should be crustaceans, not arachnids (and yes, I did notice the arachnid/rachni thing).
** Simple. Tali does a WikiWalk on the extranet, ends up following a link to Earth Spiders, and what she reads (or sees videos on) freaks her out. Bam, arachnophobia.
** There are a lot of people today who know about things that come from countries they've never been to. Being from one planet doesn't mean that you've never heard of anything from other planets. Given how much humans despise spiders in general, it makes complete sense that they'd be known among the Citadel races, especially races that might consider something like a spider nightmare fuel because they're not used to insects/bugs at all.
** In Lair of the Shadow Broker you can find out that Grunt, of all people, is doing some research on humans, and considering that Grunt is a krogan and only working with you for this mission. It would not be odd at all if we assumed that Tali, whom the of you go
way back to the original Normandy and get to work. a romance option in [=ME=]2 and 3, did some research on humans, especially that she is on a an Alliance ship, under the command of a human, with most of the crew as humans



[[folder: Have to space it?]]
* If you betray Wrex, he comes at you with a shotgun but ultimately ends up getting shot to death through a window. Bailey comments that Wrex may be too big for a coffin and they'd have to space him. Why? The Citadel has Krogan passing through there fairly often, and Elcor, which are bigger than Krogan, are Citadel members. Surely they'd have those guys die every so often. Do both Krogan and Elcor not have a tradition of burial?
** In case you didn't notice, the Citadel is kind of at war. Resources in general are going to be limited, and the amount of coffins the Citadel would have in stock for krogan would be limited too. Even less if krogan troops are moving off of Tuchanka and fighting the Reapers.

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[[folder: Have Piloting a Geth Ship]]
* After the Geth Dreadnought mission, Legion pilots a Geth fighter
to space it?]]
* If you betray Wrex, he comes at you
get Shepard and his two squadmates back to the Normandy. It does so by having its mobile platform physically operate the controls, just like any organic would. Why the heck are Geth ships built with this kind of controls? A race composed of software processes would have a much better response time if they cut the mechanical middle-man, and simply uploaded themselves into the ship. The same goes for the many terminals found throughout the dreadnought.
** The geth seem to have deliberately designed themselves to operate like organics. Maybe as an effort to understand individual organics or individuality, or maybe they just felt like doing things physically,
with a shotgun but ultimately ends up getting shot to death through a window. Bailey comments mechanical body, instead of operating via software. Note that Wrex when interfacing with any geth technology, you see lines of light running between the geth's fingers and whatever they're doing, so it is probable that the geth is likely just directly interfacing with the equipment directly while in a mechanical body. Geth may be too big for also limit their pilots to single mechanical body to cut down on reaction time; imagine, if you will, over a coffin thousand individuals trying to pilot a single fighter while in contact with another five million other individuals controlling a fleet, all of them of the same rank, and they'd have all of them operating under the basic idea of reaching a consensus on what to space him. Why? The Citadel has Krogan passing through there fairly often, do. Even arguing at the speed of optical processor thought, they're going to take a while to make a decision. A dozen geth isolated in a single body, however, can make decisions instantly and Elcor, which are bigger than Krogan, are Citadel members. Surely they'd have those guys die every so often. Do both Krogan and Elcor not have a tradition of burial?
quickly.
** In case you didn't notice, While the Citadel first part might be true (even then, trying to understand organics by seriously handicapping themselves in a life-or-death situation is kind of at war. Resources in general stupid), the second part makes no sense. Even with the mobile platforms physically interacting with the ships, we still have the same amount of Geth programs running and trying to reach a consensus during a fight. The mobile units just add a bigger delay between reaching the consensus and acting on it as the mechanical components take more time to transmit the information (and that's what operating any machine is, transmitting the information of what you want it to do by pressing buttons/pushing levers/etc.) than a software does.
** Incorrect. Legion points out that while geth
are going to be limited, and contained inside mobile platforms, they do not have as direct communication with the Consensus. Data is transferred, but the amount of coffins communication is stifled. It is "quieter." Imagine being in a room with twenty million other soldiers all of the Citadel would have same rank trying to figure out what to do with everything at the same time and reaching a consensus on how to do that. Legion itself took thirty minutes to come to a conclusion with only a thousand geth debating, and that decision was a stalemate. Now imagine the aformentioned twenty million peple trying to decide on every movement of every ship in stock for krogan the entire fleet plus their support craft. It would be limited too. Even less if krogan troops ''insanity''. Dividing up individual functions to individual platforms allows those geth to efficiently perform their specific task while directives are moving off of Tuchanka passed back and fighting forth. Instead of twenty million geth trying to come to a consensus on fleet acrions across the Reapers.entire fleet, you have mere thousands, hundreds, or dozens operating individual functions and communicating those back and forth. Data transferrence remains, but individual decisionmaking at each task becomes more efficient. Instead of twenty million geth making the decision on where to move every fighter, you have a few million deciding general course of action and instantly passing that down to other geth servers controlling ships, which transfer refined directives to individual stations, which transfer further directives to platforms handling specific tasks, on down the line, at light speed. Individual platforms at individual stations can quickly react to changinging circumstances without having to wait for the primary Consensus to reach a decision. Not too dissimilar from how human navies operate, except communication is almost instantaneous.
** It still makes little sense for a geth fighter to be piloted by a foot-soldier platform when it could just as easily be a platform itself. In [=ME=]1 we're told that their "tanks" (armatures and colossi) are platforms unto themselves, rather than vehicles driven by a foot-soldier platform, precisely because that's more efficient. If they were preoccupied with operating more '"like organics"' that wouldn't be the case.
** There may have been other concerns with Legion controlling the fighter via uploading, as well. The geth were still under Reaper control at that point. Maybe Legion didn't want to risk "indoctrination exposure" by uploading its runtimes into possibly-Reaper-infested hardware? In that case, the physical controls are a workaround.
** The obvious answer to this question is because it's safer for them to do so. They could upload directly into a fighter if they wanted, but doing so means the Geth programs will be lost if the ship is destroyed. Staying in a platform and operating their fighters manually gives them some extra protection which could allow the platform to survive or give them the extra time they need to upload their programs to the nearest Geth station, and it doesn't seem to hinder their effectiveness in battle. Plus, Geth uploaded directly into a fighter can't manipulate anything outside that fighter. They'd still need mobile platforms to get out, look around, fight ground forces, retrieve valuable resources etc.
** Maybe the geth built their ships with the possible reconciliation with the quarians in mind, with manual controls allowing an organic to operate the geth equipment.
** I took it more like plugging a USB into a slot. The ship is the hardware, and the geth platform is the hardware that delivers the software to run that hardware. Most likely, they can upload it without a physical platform there as an interface, but Legion ''does'' want to bring his platform with him, so he uses the manual interface mode.
** Geth don't need to physically pilot their fighters; the mission where you infiltrate the geth server proves that much. More likely, the fighters are designed to incorporate a mechanism by which a platform containing geth can operate the fighter in case of ECM preventing the geth from directly downloading or remotely operating the fighter. Legion's not operating the fighter as it is supposed to be operated under normal conditions. The area where Shepard's team resides is described as a cargo area by Legion, which explains why there's room for them. Also, going by the shape of the fighter and its claws, it is possible that the geth fighters also possess a secondary function as boarding craft or assault infantry transports, in which case the cargo section would carry combat platforms to attack a target.



[[folder: Tarquin Victus big screw-up]]
* What, exactly, was Tarquin Victus major screw-up that he is repeatedly accused of by his soldiers and your squad members? As far as I can tell, he was faced with two equally bad alternatives: Attack a dug-in enemy head-on and suffer guaranteed casualties OR try a risky approach which has at least some chance of surprising the enemy troops at the price of high vulnerability before the landing. I just don't see how he is supposed to have screwed up for chosing caution over suicide. The only reason I can think of is that he acted against the Turians main strategy to attack the enemy head-on with overwhelming force, or am I missing something here?
** It was less that he made a bad call so much as he made a call that got his team epically massacred. Any commander who makes a decision that gets virtually the entire unit wiped out (especially if it goes against standing doctrine) will get in deep shit.
** Especially if they fail to complete the mission to boot. With the "Victory at any cost" mentality of the turians, if Victus had managed to complete his mission at the expense of most of his team there would probably have been no complaints, but they got colossally screwed before even getting close to their target.
** It was implied that the enemy they were going to face head on was Cerberus. While tough, few consider them tougher than the Reaper forces, and they stumbled onto a crapload of them when trying to flank Cerberus. Think of it as trying to sneak past a squad guarding a door and falling into a room filled with dozens of enemies instead. Logical that you would act that way, but undeniably worse than if you had just stuck to the agreed-upon strategy.
** His mistake was not in suggesting alternate tactics, after all his own father was notorious for using non standard methods, and it got him close enough to be in line for Primarch. His mistake was that the tactic he chose was wrong. By looking at the weapons and parts you salvage before getting to Victus, you will notice that they are all light weapons - submachine guns and the light Phaeston. Light weapons are intended to be used by troops who maneuver a lot instead of taking cover, popping up and shooting as with battle rifles (marksman rifles), LMGs and sniper rifles. By taking them into the hollows, these troops got boxed in and picked off. If they'd had heavier rifles and shotguns, they would have been able to punch through. The fact that Victus put his troops in a situation they were ill equipped for, was his big screw up.

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[[folder: Tarquin Victus big screw-up]]
Ruined Suit, Perfect Face]]
* What, exactly, was Tarquin Victus major screw-up that he is repeatedly accused of by his soldiers and your squad members? As far as I can tell, he was faced with two equally bad alternatives: Attack a dug-in enemy head-on and suffer guaranteed casualties OR try a risky approach which has at least some chance of surprising the enemy troops at the price of high vulnerability When Harbinger shows up before the landing. I conduit and blasts the entire ground force apart, Shepard takes a direct hit reflected in his/her damaged armor. But how the hell is his/her pretty face just fine afterwards, even if you weren't wearing a helmet? Hell, Shepard's armor ''melted'' off the tough bastard, and there's not even burn marks or lacerations or anything. It's not as if it can't be rendered (think Virmine Survivor in hospital, bloody face during opening), so what caused Bioware to overlook that?~
** I guess it's a case of GameplayAndStorySegregation (or, more to the point, "Presentation and Story Segregation"). They just didn't want Shepard to look any different from their regular self during the final sequences, so they just added some of the Renegade scars to their face and called it a day.
** My Shepard was pretty noticably scarred in that scene, especially around her mouth.
** Mine had some around her left eye, cheek and mouth.
** While you'd expect considerably more damage to the face, we
don't really see how he is supposed to have screwed up for chosing caution over suicide. The only reason I can think of is that he acted against Shepard survive a "direct hit". Harbinger's laser strikes the Turians main strategy to attack ground in front of her, the enemy head-on with overwhelming force, or am I missing something here?
** It was less that he made a bad call so much as he made a call that got his team epically massacred. Any commander who makes a decision that gets virtually the entire unit wiped out (especially if it goes against standing doctrine) will get in deep shit.
** Especially if they fail to complete the mission to boot. With the "Victory at any cost" mentality
force of the turians, if Victus had managed to complete his mission at the expense of most of his team there would probably have been no complaints, but they got colossally screwed before even getting close to their target.
** It was implied that the enemy they were going to face head on was Cerberus. While tough, few consider them tougher than the Reaper forces, and they stumbled onto a crapload of them when trying to flank Cerberus. Think of it as trying to sneak past a squad guarding a door and falling into a room filled with dozens of enemies instead. Logical that you would act that way, but undeniably worse than if you had just stuck to the agreed-upon strategy.
** His mistake was not in suggesting alternate tactics, after all his own father was notorious for using non standard methods, and it got him close
which is enough to be in line obliterate her armour and blast her back. Well, okay, she's actually much closer to the beam when she wakes up. Lots of speculation for Primarch. His mistake was that everyone.
** That's easy. Shepard, like all people in
the tactic he chose was wrong. By looking at Mass Effect universe, wears a helmet in combat, which you can turn off in the weapons and parts you salvage before getting to Victus, you will notice that they are all light weapons - submachine guns and options for the light Phaeston. Light weapons are intended sake of GameplayAndStorySegregation, because people want to be used by troops who maneuver a lot instead of taking cover, popping up and shooting as emotionally connect with battle rifles (marksman rifles), LMGs and sniper rifles. By taking him/her which isn't possible if you can't see his/her face well. When he/she was hit by the beam, the helmet's outer layers melted just as much as his/her armor, making them into opaque. Because he/she didn't want to walk around blind, he/she 'actually' pulled off her helmet, revealing his/her bruised but unburnt face.
** Wasn't Sheperd's face being horribly bruised, bloody and overall horrifically injured? Specially manshep [[http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/208/8/6/injured_shepard__spoilers__by_kenmurikumo-d58su85.jpg]]
** NIce to see manshep copping a feel on... herself...
** For clarification, when this entry was made, it was pre-Extended Cut, where Shepard's face was fine. With
the hollows, these troops got boxed in and picked off. If they'd had heavier rifles and shotguns, they would have been able to punch through. The fact that Victus put his troops in a situation they were ill equipped for, was his big screw up.EC, Shepard's face becomes properly bruised, so this matter is settled.



[[folder: Tali and spiders]]
* How does Tali even know what a spider is? Has she encountered some on the Citadel? On Omega? In human colonies?
** Rachni + Extranet.
** Apparently multiple planets have animal species that can be described as "fish" (IE, "Thessian Sunfish"). I wouldn't be surprised if there were eight limbed arthropods on other planets... or she could have just future-googled "spider".
** Tali clearly knows what an insect is (otherwise she wouldn't be able to say Rannoch has no insects), it's no stretch to think she knows what a spider is. Also, even though Rannoch has no insects, it's interesting to note that Tali '''never visited Rannoch in her life'''. For all we know, insects are a very common concern of the Quarians as they are today, specially considering they usually buy used ships.
** Any translator can tell you that there are words or concepts that can't be fully translated into other languages and must be approximated. When human talk about "spiders", Tali would hear it as her word for whatever species approximate spiders in her homeworld. Even if there is no such species, a good Universal Translator would readily give an approximate definition easily understood in her language. So, there will be no difficulty in understanding what a "spider" is.
** A better question would be why people in-game keep comparing the rachni to spiders. The queen did look kind of spiderish, but in the first game she and all of her children looked very much like giant space prawns. If anything, they should be crustaceans, not arachnids (and yes, I did notice the arachnid/rachni thing).
** Simple. Tali does a WikiWalk on the extranet, ends up following a link to Earth Spiders, and what she reads (or sees videos on) freaks her out. Bam, arachnophobia.
** There are a lot of people today who know about things that come from countries they've never been to. Being from one planet doesn't mean that you've never heard of anything from other planets. Given how much humans despise spiders in general, it makes complete sense that they'd be known among the Citadel races, especially races that might consider something like a spider nightmare fuel because they're not used to insects/bugs at all.
** In Lair of the Shadow Broker you can find out that Grunt, of all people, is doing some research on humans, and considering that Grunt is a krogan and only working with you for this mission. It would not be odd at all if we assumed that Tali, whom the of you go way back to the original Normandy and a romance option in [=ME=]2 and 3, did some research on humans, especially that she is on a an Alliance ship, under the command of a human, with most of the crew as humans

to:

[[folder: Tali Banshee height]]
* Why are they roughly 7
and spiders]]
* How does Tali even know what
a spider is? Has she encountered some on half feet tall when asari are all generally the Citadel? On Omega? In same height as human colonies?
** Rachni + Extranet.
** Apparently multiple planets have animal
women, other huskified species that can be described as "fish" (IE, "Thessian Sunfish"). I wouldn't be surprised if there were eight limbed arthropods on other planets... or she could have just future-googled "spider".
** Tali clearly knows what an insect is (otherwise she wouldn't be able to say Rannoch has no insects), it's no stretch to think she knows what a spider is. Also, even though Rannoch has no insects, it's interesting to note that Tali '''never visited Rannoch
mirror their organic counterparts in her life'''. For all we know, insects size (yes, brutes are a very common concern of significantly larger than krogan, but that's attributable to visible cybernetics)?
** The Reapers are physically modifying
the Quarians as they are today, specially considering they usually buy used ships.
** Any translator can tell you that there are words or concepts that can't be fully translated into other languages and must be approximated. When human talk about "spiders", Tali would hear it as her word for whatever species approximate spiders in her homeworld. Even if there is no such species, a good Universal Translator would readily give an approximate definition easily understood in her language. So, there will be no difficulty in understanding what a "spider" is.
** A better question would be why people in-game keep comparing the rachni to spiders. The queen did look kind of spiderish, but in the first game she and all of her children looked very much like giant space prawns. If anything, they should be crustaceans, not arachnids (and yes, I did notice the arachnid/rachni thing).
** Simple. Tali does a WikiWalk on the extranet, ends up following a link to Earth Spiders, and what she reads (or sees videos on) freaks her out. Bam, arachnophobia.
** There are a lot of people today who know about things that come from countries they've never been to. Being from one planet doesn't mean that you've never heard of anything from other planets. Given how much humans despise spiders in general, it makes complete sense that they'd be known among the Citadel races, especially races that might consider something like a spider nightmare fuel because they're not used to insects/bugs at all.
** In Lair of the Shadow Broker you can find out that Grunt, of all people, is doing some research on humans, and considering that Grunt is a krogan and only working
bodies with you for this mission. It would not be odd at all if we assumed that Tali, whom the massive amounts of you go way back to the original Normandy and a romance option in [=ME=]2 and 3, did some research on humans, especially that she is on a an Alliance ship, under the command of a human, with most of the crew as humanscybernetic augmentations.



[[folder: Piloting a Geth Ship]]
* After the Geth Dreadnought mission, Legion pilots a Geth fighter to get Shepard and his two squadmates back to the Normandy. It does so by having its mobile platform physically operate the controls, just like any organic would. Why the heck are Geth ships built with this kind of controls? A race composed of software processes would have a much better response time if they cut the mechanical middle-man, and simply uploaded themselves into the ship. The same goes for the many terminals found throughout the dreadnought.
** The geth seem to have deliberately designed themselves to operate like organics. Maybe as an effort to understand individual organics or individuality, or maybe they just felt like doing things physically, with a mechanical body, instead of operating via software. Note that when interfacing with any geth technology, you see lines of light running between the geth's fingers and whatever they're doing, so it is probable that the geth is likely just directly interfacing with the equipment directly while in a mechanical body. Geth may also limit their pilots to single mechanical body to cut down on reaction time; imagine, if you will, over a thousand individuals trying to pilot a single fighter while in contact with another five million other individuals controlling a fleet, all of them of the same rank, and all of them operating under the basic idea of reaching a consensus on what to do. Even arguing at the speed of optical processor thought, they're going to take a while to make a decision. A dozen geth isolated in a single body, however, can make decisions instantly and quickly.
** While the first part might be true (even then, trying to understand organics by seriously handicapping themselves in a life-or-death situation is kind of stupid), the second part makes no sense. Even with the mobile platforms physically interacting with the ships, we still have the same amount of Geth programs running and trying to reach a consensus during a fight. The mobile units just add a bigger delay between reaching the consensus and acting on it as the mechanical components take more time to transmit the information (and that's what operating any machine is, transmitting the information of what you want it to do by pressing buttons/pushing levers/etc.) than a software does.
** Incorrect. Legion points out that while geth are contained inside mobile platforms, they do not have as direct communication with the Consensus. Data is transferred, but the amount of communication is stifled. It is "quieter." Imagine being in a room with twenty million other soldiers all of the same rank trying to figure out what to do with everything at the same time and reaching a consensus on how to do that. Legion itself took thirty minutes to come to a conclusion with only a thousand geth debating, and that decision was a stalemate. Now imagine the aformentioned twenty million peple trying to decide on every movement of every ship in the entire fleet plus their support craft. It would be ''insanity''. Dividing up individual functions to individual platforms allows those geth to efficiently perform their specific task while directives are passed back and forth. Instead of twenty million geth trying to come to a consensus on fleet acrions across the entire fleet, you have mere thousands, hundreds, or dozens operating individual functions and communicating those back and forth. Data transferrence remains, but individual decisionmaking at each task becomes more efficient. Instead of twenty million geth making the decision on where to move every fighter, you have a few million deciding general course of action and instantly passing that down to other geth servers controlling ships, which transfer refined directives to individual stations, which transfer further directives to platforms handling specific tasks, on down the line, at light speed. Individual platforms at individual stations can quickly react to changinging circumstances without having to wait for the primary Consensus to reach a decision. Not too dissimilar from how human navies operate, except communication is almost instantaneous.
** It still makes little sense for a geth fighter to be piloted by a foot-soldier platform when it could just as easily be a platform itself. In [=ME=]1 we're told that their "tanks" (armatures and colossi) are platforms unto themselves, rather than vehicles driven by a foot-soldier platform, precisely because that's more efficient. If they were preoccupied with operating more '"like organics"' that wouldn't be the case.
** There may have been other concerns with Legion controlling the fighter via uploading, as well. The geth were still under Reaper control at that point. Maybe Legion didn't want to risk "indoctrination exposure" by uploading its runtimes into possibly-Reaper-infested hardware? In that case, the physical controls are a workaround.
** The obvious answer to this question is because it's safer for them to do so. They could upload directly into a fighter if they wanted, but doing so means the Geth programs will be lost if the ship is destroyed. Staying in a platform and operating their fighters manually gives them some extra protection which could allow the platform to survive or give them the extra time they need to upload their programs to the nearest Geth station, and it doesn't seem to hinder their effectiveness in battle. Plus, Geth uploaded directly into a fighter can't manipulate anything outside that fighter. They'd still need mobile platforms to get out, look around, fight ground forces, retrieve valuable resources etc.
** Maybe the geth built their ships with the possible reconciliation with the quarians in mind, with manual controls allowing an organic to operate the geth equipment.
** I took it more like plugging a USB into a slot. The ship is the hardware, and the geth platform is the hardware that delivers the software to run that hardware. Most likely, they can upload it without a physical platform there as an interface, but Legion ''does'' want to bring his platform with him, so he uses the manual interface mode.
** Geth don't need to physically pilot their fighters; the mission where you infiltrate the geth server proves that much. More likely, the fighters are designed to incorporate a mechanism by which a platform containing geth can operate the fighter in case of ECM preventing the geth from directly downloading or remotely operating the fighter. Legion's not operating the fighter as it is supposed to be operated under normal conditions. The area where Shepard's team resides is described as a cargo area by Legion, which explains why there's room for them. Also, going by the shape of the fighter and its claws, it is possible that the geth fighters also possess a secondary function as boarding craft or assault infantry transports, in which case the cargo section would carry combat platforms to attack a target.

to:

[[folder: Piloting a Geth Ship]]
[[folder:Banshee disintegration]]
* After The codex says Banshees disintegrate immediately upon being killed. This occurs every time the Geth Dreadnought mission, Legion pilots a Geth fighter player takes one down. So why is Falere able to get Shepard and his two squadmates back point to the Normandy. It does so by having its mobile platform physically operate corpse of one during the controls, Ardat-Yakshi mission?
** Likely either a one-in-a-million design flaw, or the Codex's definition of "immediately" doesn't equate to "instantly". On the note of Brutes though, their anatomy and articulation don't look anything like a krogan's. Hell, it looks more like a yahg's. Even the feet resemble them. What's up with that?
** It also resembles turian feet. I think Brutes are not
just like any organic would. Why the heck are Geth ships built mutated krogans with this kind turian heads, but a complete mix-and-match of controls? A race composed of software processes would have a much better response time if they cut the mechanical middle-man, and simply uploaded themselves into the ship. The same goes for the many terminals found throughout the dreadnought.
** The geth seem to have deliberately designed themselves to operate like organics. Maybe as an effort to understand individual organics or individuality, or maybe they just felt like doing things physically,
two, with a mechanical body, instead the end result resembling neither.
*** Look at [[https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/masseffect/images/9/90/ME3_Brute.png/revision/latest?cb=20120320023753 this]] image
of operating via software. Note that a Brute, from the Mass Effect wiki. It's hard to see in-game, when interfacing with any geth technology, you see lines of light running between the geth's fingers and whatever they're doing, so it is probable that the geth is likely just directly interfacing with the equipment directly while in a mechanical body. Geth may also limit their pilots to single mechanical body to cut down on reaction time; imagine, if you will, over a thousand individuals trying to pilot a single fighter while in contact with another five million other individuals controlling a fleet, all of them of the same rank, and all of them operating under the basic idea of reaching a consensus on what to do. Even arguing at the speed of optical processor thought, they're going to take a while to make a decision. A dozen geth isolated in a single body, however, can make decisions instantly and quickly.
** While the first part might be true (even then, trying to understand organics by seriously handicapping themselves in a life-or-death situation is kind of stupid), the second part makes no sense. Even with the mobile platforms physically interacting with the ships, we still have the same amount of Geth programs running
moving around and trying to reach a consensus during a fight. The mobile units just add a bigger delay between reaching the consensus kill you, but Brute feet are entirely cybernetic, and acting on it as the mechanical components take more time to transmit the information (and that's what operating any machine is, transmitting the information of what you want it to do by pressing buttons/pushing levers/etc.) than a software does.
** Incorrect. Legion points out that while geth are contained inside mobile platforms, they do not have as direct communication with the Consensus. Data is transferred, but the amount of communication is stifled. It is "quieter." Imagine being in a room with twenty million other soldiers all of the same rank trying to figure out what to do with everything at the same time and reaching a consensus on how to do that. Legion itself took thirty minutes to come to a conclusion with only a thousand geth debating, and that decision was a stalemate. Now imagine the aformentioned twenty million peple trying to decide on every movement of every ship in the entire fleet plus
their support craft. It would be ''insanity''. Dividing up individual functions to individual platforms allows those geth to efficiently perform their specific task while directives arms are passed back and forth. Instead of twenty million geth trying to come to a consensus on fleet acrions across the entire fleet, you have mere thousands, hundreds, mostly or dozens operating individual functions and communicating those back and forth. Data transferrence remains, but individual decisionmaking at each task becomes more efficient. Instead of twenty million geth making the decision on where to move every fighter, you have a few million deciding general course of action and instantly passing entirely cybernetic. Note that down to other geth servers controlling ships, which transfer refined directives to individual stations, which transfer further directives to platforms handling specific tasks, on down the line, at light speed. Individual platforms at individual stations can quickly react to changinging circumstances without having to wait for the primary Consensus to reach a decision. Not too dissimilar from how human navies operate, except communication krogan hump is almost instantaneous.
also removed.
** It still The mission makes little sense for it clear that transformation into a geth fighter to be piloted by a foot-soldier platform when Banshee is not instantaneous, it could just as easily be a platform itself. In [=ME=]1 we're told that their "tanks" (armatures it was killed shortly before the transformation was complete and colossi) are platforms unto themselves, rather than vehicles driven by a foot-soldier platform, precisely because that's more efficient. If they were preoccupied with operating more '"like organics"' that wouldn't be so the case.
** There may have been other concerns with Legion controlling the fighter via uploading, as well. The geth were still under Reaper control at that point. Maybe Legion didn't want to risk "indoctrination exposure" by uploading its runtimes into possibly-Reaper-infested hardware? In that case, the physical controls are a workaround.
** The obvious answer to this question is because it's safer for them to do so. They could upload directly into a fighter if they wanted, but doing so means the Geth programs will be lost if the ship is destroyed. Staying in a platform and operating their fighters manually gives them some extra protection which could allow the platform to survive or give them the extra time they need to upload their programs to the nearest Geth station, and it doesn't seem to hinder their effectiveness in battle. Plus, Geth uploaded directly into a fighter can't manipulate anything outside that fighter. They'd still need mobile platforms to get out, look around, fight ground forces, retrieve valuable resources etc.
** Maybe the geth built their ships with the possible reconciliation with the quarians in mind, with manual controls allowing an organic to operate the geth equipment.
** I took it more like plugging a USB into a slot. The ship is the hardware, and the geth platform is the hardware that delivers the software to run that hardware. Most likely, they can upload it without a physical platform there as an interface, but Legion ''does'' want to bring his platform with him, so he uses the manual interface mode.
** Geth don't need to physically pilot their fighters; the mission where you infiltrate the geth server proves that much. More likely, the fighters are designed to incorporate a mechanism by which a platform containing geth can operate the fighter in case of ECM preventing the geth from directly downloading or remotely operating the fighter. Legion's not operating the fighter as it is supposed to be operated under normal conditions. The area where Shepard's team resides is described as a cargo area by Legion, which explains why there's room for them. Also, going by the shape of the fighter and its claws, it is possible that the geth fighters also possess a secondary function as boarding craft or assault infantry transports, in which case the cargo section would carry combat platforms to attack a target.
insta-disintegration wasn't working yet.



[[folder: Ruined Suit, Perfect Face]]
* When Harbinger shows up before the conduit and blasts the entire ground force apart, Shepard takes a direct hit reflected in his/her damaged armor. But how the hell is his/her pretty face just fine afterwards, even if you weren't wearing a helmet? Hell, Shepard's armor ''melted'' off the tough bastard, and there's not even burn marks or lacerations or anything. It's not as if it can't be rendered (think Virmine Survivor in hospital, bloody face during opening), so what caused Bioware to overlook that?~
** I guess it's a case of GameplayAndStorySegregation (or, more to the point, "Presentation and Story Segregation"). They just didn't want Shepard to look any different from their regular self during the final sequences, so they just added some of the Renegade scars to their face and called it a day.
** My Shepard was pretty noticably scarred in that scene, especially around her mouth.
** Mine had some around her left eye, cheek and mouth.
** While you'd expect considerably more damage to the face, we don't really see Shepard survive a "direct hit". Harbinger's laser strikes the ground in front of her, the force of which is enough to obliterate her armour and blast her back. Well, okay, she's actually much closer to the beam when she wakes up. Lots of speculation for everyone.
** That's easy. Shepard, like all people in the Mass Effect universe, wears a helmet in combat, which you can turn off in the options for the sake of GameplayAndStorySegregation, because people want to emotionally connect with him/her which isn't possible if you can't see his/her face well. When he/she was hit by the beam, the helmet's outer layers melted just as much as his/her armor, making them opaque. Because he/she didn't want to walk around blind, he/she 'actually' pulled off her helmet, revealing his/her bruised but unburnt face.
** Wasn't Sheperd's face being horribly bruised, bloody and overall horrifically injured? Specially manshep [[http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/208/8/6/injured_shepard__spoilers__by_kenmurikumo-d58su85.jpg]]
** NIce to see manshep copping a feel on... herself...
** For clarification, when this entry was made, it was pre-Extended Cut, where Shepard's face was fine. With the EC, Shepard's face becomes properly bruised, so this matter is settled.

to:

[[folder: Ruined Suit, Perfect Face]]
[[folder:Indoctrinated Access to Vendetta (Thessia Beacon)]]
* How was Kai Leng able to download the data from the beacon on Thessia? When Harbinger shows up before he arrives, the conduit and blasts the entire ground force apart, VI notes that "an indoctrinated presence has been detected". Given that Shepard takes a direct hit reflected in his/her damaged armor. But how and Co. had to ''convince'' it to give them information on the hell Catalyst, why doesn't it shut down or otherwise refuse to give Leng the data?
** The VI
is his/her pretty face just fine afterwards, even if you weren't wearing a helmet? Hell, Shepard's armor ''melted'' off the tough bastard, and there's not even burn marks or lacerations or anything. highly advanced operating system, isn't it? It's not too hard of a stretch to think the information it protects can be hacked by other means. Besides, it doesn't give Leng the data so much as Leng "kidnaps" it. The data is retrieved by others at Cerberus at Chronos station. More surprising is that Leng is able to transfer the entire contents of a Prothean beacon into his omni-tool.
** Not so surprising
if it can't be rendered (think Virmine Survivor his omni-tool was designed/upgraded with downloading a Prothean beacon in hospital, bloody face during opening), so mind. We know that Leng knew what caused Bioware to overlook that?~
** I guess
he was looking for on Thessia; it's a case of GameplayAndStorySegregation (or, more to the point, "Presentation and Story Segregation"). They just didn't want Shepard to look any different from their regular self during the final sequences, so they just added some of the Renegade scars to their face and called it a day.
** My Shepard was pretty noticably scarred in
fair assumption that scene, especially around her mouth.
** Mine had some around her left eye, cheek
TIM armed him with the tools he would need to get the job done, as opposed to sending him in blind and mouth.
** While you'd expect considerably more damage to the face, we don't really see Shepard survive a "direct hit". Harbinger's laser strikes the ground in front of her, the force of which is enough to obliterate her armour and blast her back. Well, okay, she's actually much closer to the beam when she wakes up. Lots of speculation for everyone.
** That's easy. Shepard, like all people in the Mass Effect universe, wears a helmet in combat, which you can turn off in the options
hoping for the sake of GameplayAndStorySegregation, because people want to emotionally connect with him/her best. As for why Vendetta told them about the Catalyst, a simple answer is "He didn't". Vendetta is a program. A Prothean program, which isn't possible if you can't see his/her face well. When he/she was hit by may or may not be far more advanced than anything that modern galactic civilization has, but is undoubtedly inferior to the beam, the helmet's outer layers melted Reaper tech that TIM has at his disposal. They probably just as much as his/her armor, making them opaque. Because he/she didn't want to walk around blind, he/she 'actually' pulled off her helmet, revealing his/her bruised but unburnt face.
** Wasn't Sheperd's face being horribly bruised, bloody and overall horrifically injured? Specially manshep [[http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/208/8/6/injured_shepard__spoilers__by_kenmurikumo-d58su85.jpg]]
** NIce to see manshep copping a feel on... herself...
** For clarification, when this entry was made, it was pre-Extended Cut, where Shepard's face was fine. With
stripped all the EC, Shepard's face becomes properly bruised, so this matter is settled.data they needed from him without giving him a choice.



[[folder: Banshee height]]
* Why are they roughly 7 and a half feet tall when asari are all generally the same height as human women, other huskified species mirror their organic counterparts in size (yes, brutes are significantly larger than krogan, but that's attributable to visible cybernetics)?
** The Reapers are physically modifying the bodies with massive amounts of cybernetic augmentations.

to:

[[folder: Banshee height]]
[[folder:Fleets getting through the relay]]
* Why are According to the Codex, the Migrant fleet takes days to get through a relay. Now, presumably, the Earth Battle sees a good portion of that fleet (under best conditions) as well as thousands of ships by other races. How come they roughly 7 and a half feet tall when asari are all generally the same height as human women, other huskified species mirror their organic counterparts in size (yes, brutes are significantly larger than krogan, but that's attributable to visible cybernetics)?
"accounted for and ready" within a minute?
** The Migrant Fleet tends to be cautious, and the more ships you send through, the further the error ratio when they exit. You can send a giant fleet through the relay, but it will be scattered, but the Migrant Fleet does not like to move while spread out. They move through a few ships at a time to make sure that none of them get separated and grabbed by pirates. Sword Fleet doesn't have to worry about that, so they can send hundreds of ships through at once without immediate worry; by the time the Reapers can respond, they'll have already reformed.
** We don't know exactly how Mass Relays
are physically modifying ''powered''. It's possible that it can only transmit so much mass in a single shot, and it takes time to fully recharge afterwards. The Migrant Fleet consists of 50,000 ships; Sword Fleet, probably less than 5% of that. Alternatively, it's possible that the bodies with massive amounts more ships that make the jump, the greater the stress on the individual vessels. Most of cybernetic augmentations.
the Migrant Fleet's ships are obsolete civilian half-wrecks , flying only due to Quarian engineering skill, and thus probably can't take anywhere near the jump stress that a top-of-the-line warship can endure.



[[folder:Banshee disintegration]]
* The codex says Banshees disintegrate immediately upon being killed. This occurs every time the player takes one down. So why is Falere able to point to the corpse of one during the Ardat-Yakshi mission?
** Likely either a one-in-a-million design flaw, or the Codex's definition of "immediately" doesn't equate to "instantly". On the note of Brutes though, their anatomy and articulation don't look anything like a krogan's. Hell, it looks more like a yahg's. Even the feet resemble them. What's up with that?
** It also resembles turian feet. I think Brutes are not just mutated krogans with turian heads, but a complete mix-and-match of the two, with the end result resembling neither.
*** Look at [[https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/masseffect/images/9/90/ME3_Brute.png/revision/latest?cb=20120320023753 this]] image of a Brute, from the Mass Effect wiki. It's hard to see in-game, when they're moving around and trying to kill you, but Brute feet are entirely cybernetic, and their arms are mostly or entirely cybernetic. Note that the krogan hump is also removed.
** The mission makes it clear that transformation into a Banshee is not instantaneous, it could be that it was killed shortly before the transformation was complete and so the insta-disintegration wasn't working yet.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Indoctrinated Access to Vendetta (Thessia Beacon)]]
* How was Kai Leng able to download the data from the beacon on Thessia? When he arrives, the VI notes that "an indoctrinated presence has been detected". Given that Shepard and Co. had to ''convince'' it to give them information on the Catalyst, why doesn't it shut down or otherwise refuse to give Leng the data?
** The VI is just a highly advanced operating system, isn't it? It's not too hard of a stretch to think the information it protects can be hacked by other means. Besides, it doesn't give Leng the data so much as Leng "kidnaps" it. The data is retrieved by others at Cerberus at Chronos station. More surprising is that Leng is able to transfer the entire contents of a Prothean beacon into his omni-tool.
** Not so surprising if his omni-tool was designed/upgraded with downloading a Prothean beacon in mind. We know that Leng knew what he was looking for on Thessia; it's a fair assumption that TIM armed him with the tools he would need to get the job done, as opposed to sending him in blind and hoping for the best. As for why Vendetta told them about the Catalyst, a simple answer is "He didn't". Vendetta is a program. A Prothean program, which may or may not be far more advanced than anything that modern galactic civilization has, but is undoubtedly inferior to the Reaper tech that TIM has at his disposal. They probably just stripped all the data they needed from him without giving him a choice.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Fleets getting through the relay]]
* According to the Codex, the Migrant fleet takes days to get through a relay. Now, presumably, the Earth Battle sees a good portion of that fleet (under best conditions) as well as thousands of ships by other races. How come they are all "accounted for and ready" within a minute?
** The Migrant Fleet tends to be cautious, and the more ships you send through, the further the error ratio when they exit. You can send a giant fleet through the relay, but it will be scattered, but the Migrant Fleet does not like to move while spread out. They move through a few ships at a time to make sure that none of them get separated and grabbed by pirates. Sword Fleet doesn't have to worry about that, so they can send hundreds of ships through at once without immediate worry; by the time the Reapers can respond, they'll have already reformed.
** We don't know exactly how Mass Relays are ''powered''. It's possible that it can only transmit so much mass in a single shot, and it takes time to fully recharge afterwards. The Migrant Fleet consists of 50,000 ships; Sword Fleet, probably less than 5% of that. Alternatively, it's possible that the more ships that make the jump, the greater the stress on the individual vessels. Most of the Migrant Fleet's ships are obsolete civilian half-wrecks , flying only due to Quarian engineering skill, and thus probably can't take anywhere near the jump stress that a top-of-the-line warship can endure.

[[/folder]]



* When you talk to liara on earth right before the final battle she will offer a gift to shepard. I couldn't even understand how she tried to describe it, and if you accept, then the screen will go black and you and liara will watch some kind of weird space event in total silence (and making out, if you romanced her). What the hell was that supposed to be?

to:

* When you talk to liara Liara on earth right before the final battle she will offer a gift to shepard.Shepard. I couldn't even understand how she tried to describe it, and if you accept, then the screen will go black and you and liara will watch some kind of weird space event in total silence (and making out, if you romanced her). What the hell was that supposed to be?






[[folder:Harbinger shooting the Normandy]]

* Different example, but same principle, when Shepard calls in the Normandy to evaculate his team in the Extended cut, why doesn't Harbinger take advantage of this and blast both his nemesis and the ship? They are sitting ducks, I seriiously doubt they would be able to withstand the attack for long.
** That bugged me initially as well, but then I figured that Harbinger's priority at that moment was to stop everyone from getting to the Conduit and up to the Citadel (remember it wasn't just Shepard and co making a break for it, pretty much the entirety of Hammer was running for it as well), so Harbinger would have been focusing everything it had on the people charging the Conduit. Also note, that when Harbinger assumes everyone is dead, it takes off, [[FridgeBrilliance which could mean that it was going after the Normandy to finish the job.]]
** Or due to the Reaper IFF, Harbinger saw a Reaper standing right in front of Shepard and his crew and he leaves having assumed that it killed Shepard (the only person they have come to fear).
[[/folder]]



[[folder: The Reapers haven't watched The Terminator]]
* Ok, by now we all know the reapers' plan. What I see as the biggest flaw in the Catalyst's logic is that it makes the assumption that organic life will conquer ftl travel sooner than it will develop artificial intelligence. Now, assuming this was to happen and the worst case scenario were to occur with the A.I. killing the pre-spaceflight organics that created it, would it not be possible if not probable for the A.I. to become itself spacefaring and potentially cause the destruction of galactic life halfway between reaper harvesting?
** Presumably the Reapers kill off any synthetic races they find during their harvesting runs. At most, the pre-FTL synthetics would go undetected during the current cycle and then be wiped out 50,000 years later.
** The Reaper vanguard's job is to make sure this doesn't happen. It keeps an eye on the galactic situation, and if a synthetic creation starts running amok, it would trigger the harvest early to deal with it. This is a common fallacy that a lot of people make when considering the Reaper's cycle: they assume that the Reapers are blind to the goings-on of the galaxy, when the Reapers have both their vanguard (Sovereign) and slave species (Collectors, controlled by Harbinger) to keep an eye on the galaxy for precisely this reason. Remember that the current cycle is an extreme fluke because Sovereign couldn't just call down the Reaper fleets early. In previous cycles the Reapers would just swoop down on any abnormalities and smash them flat.
** That is flat-out wrong. Javik says that the Protheans were engaged in a galactic-scale war with a Synthetic species for much of their history, and were starting to make real gains when the Reapers came.
** Which proves what, exactly? The Protheans were fighting a synthetic species, yes, but that synthetic species was not on the verge of winning and taking over the galaxy. The Reapers would be expected to trigger a harvest if it became apparent that synthetic life was going to take over the galaxy; that's the vanguard's job.
** Moreover, as long as the Synthetic and Organic species are fighting themselves to a standstill, that just makes the Reapers' job easier. Once one of them seizes the upper-hand decisively, they can move in an smash both of them at their weakest.
** The problem is that according to the Catalyst Synthetics always win.
** So? The Catalyst is not a truly omnicscient and infalliable entity. The fact that you're talking to it proves that much outright.
** Rather, the synthetics would always win ''eventually''.
** More specifically, that since Synthetics are vastly more efficient than any organic race, it would only take ''one'' genocidally intolerant synthetic race achieving victory to spell the doom of all organic intelligent races across the galaxy forever.

[[/folder]]



[[folder: Reaper Blackstar: What's with the handgrip?]]
* It just seems odd that the Reapers would make a weapon with a human-style handgrip and trigger when they could easily integrate it with a husk's body instead, like with the Scion's shockwave cannon in [=ME=]2. Otherwise, it's like they're just ''begging'' for someone like Shepard to pick it up and turn it against them. Also, if the Blackstar is such an effective weapon, why don't we see the Reapers using large-scale versions of it as anti-dreadnought weapons, instead of spamming Thanix beams all over the place?
** Makes it easier for an indoctrinated soldier or techie to bring this heavy weapon into their base and blow up key personnel or armory.
** It's also a one-shot weapon. In-universe it could be something the Reapers made recently and are testing. Given its destructive capabilites and only firing once, it's possible the Reapers intended this to be used by a suicide bomber tactic.

to:

[[folder: Reaper Blackstar: What's Shepard's Spectre Status and the Alliance]]
* In the game did Shepard forget that s/he is a Spectre and not an Alliance officer? Shepard spends pretty much the entire game following the orders of Anderson and Hackett, conferring
with them as though Shepard was still under their command (dialogue at the handgrip?]]
* It just seems odd
beginning even acts as though this is the case) and never showing anywhere near the same deference to Councillors. Is it any wonder that the Reapers would make Council spent the past two games wondering if Shepard was just advancing human interests?
** Shepard is both
a weapon with Spectre ''and'' an Alliance officer. As a human-style handgrip and trigger Spectre, s/he's expected to choose the will of the Council over that of the Alliance, but when they could easily integrate it with don't conflict, Shepard is allowed to do stuff for each. Besides, a husk's body instead, like with the Scion's shockwave cannon in [=ME=]2. Otherwise, lot of stuff Shepard does advance Council interests, whether it's like securing resources, forging alliances, destroying enemy forces, or ending centuries-old blood-feuds, Shepard helps out a lot. If the Council needs something, they probably can get Hackett to relay that to Shepard.
** Shepard doesn't forget his/her rank. Shepard does, however, recognize that Hackett is much more experienced in general and follows Hackett's orders because
they're just ''begging'' ''good ideas'' and doesn't get hung up on rank and authority because of the horde of mecha-Chtulhus invading the galaxy at the moment. And Shepard's Spectre status is contingent on the Council's authority, and the Council is coordinating with Hackett, so if Shepard hares off on his/her own and ignores Hackett, there's a good chance the Council will cancel Shepard's Spectre status.
** Hackett is effectively the commander of all anti-Reaper forces AND is overseeing construction of the Crucible. In order
for someone like Shepard to pick it up and turn it against them. Also, if the Blackstar is such an effective weapon, why don't we see effectively fight the Reapers using large-scale versions of it as anti-dreadnought weapons, instead of spamming Thanix beams all over s/he basically has to take his marching orders from Hackett. If Shepard was defiant and hostile toward the place?
** Makes it easier for an indoctrinated soldier or techie to bring
Council in [=ME=]1 then the Councilors would probably consider this heavy weapon into a plus. If they relay their base and blow up key personnel or armory.
** It's also
orders through Hackett there's a one-shot weapon. In-universe it could be something the Reapers made recently and are testing. Given its destructive capabilites and only firing once, it's possible the Reapers intended this to be used by a suicide bomber tactic. chance Shepard will actually follow them.



[[folder: Reapers Don't Know How to Aim Rockets or Ballistics (Thessia)]]
* On Thessia, at the very beginning of the mission Sheppard gets to an Asari post headed by Lieutenant Kurin. The perimeter is soon breached, an Asari blocks the breach with a biotic bubble and Sheppard has to get on the turret to shoot Brutes and Husks. When this fight is over there's a cut scene. During this scene, the reaper forces launch rockets at the biotic bubble. If we look at the rockets' paths closely, we can see their trajectory is curved, in both the horizontal and vertical planes. This implies guided flight. Why can't the reapers just aim to hit the area behind the bubble? Actually, if one of the rockets had just been aimed a little bit more to the right (seen from our perspective during the cut scene), it would have been able to fly over what remained of the original fence and hit behind the fence, right in the middle of the courtyard. In the cutscene this rocket hits the biotic bubble but the bubble is higher than the fence. For that matter, have the Reapers ever heard of mortars? It is true that there are major difference between a mortar and a bazooka. A modern fighting unit equipped with self-propelled rockets might not be able to accomplish what a unit equipped with mortars could. However, the Reapers are leagues ahead of us technologically: using a rocket as a mortar round should be nothing to them.
** Husks aren't exactly smart. They rely more on their overwhelming numbers and toughness to win, and in a situation where that's not enough, they'll wait for an actual reaper to lend support. It's possible that whatever was firing the rockets just saw the Asari bubble and went "enemy = shoot" and would just keep firing until it was dead. Not the best explanation, but still.
** Or, they knew exactly what they were doing. Even at that point, everyone knew Thessia was lost. The Reapers are all about breaking their enemies' spirits, so letting the commandos watch their defenses being whittled down, begging for reinforcements and being slowly overwhelmed by husks, would be more psychologically terrifying to others listening in than than just blowing them to kingdom come. Perhaps inefficient, but the Reapers have billions more soldiers on their side and all the time in the universe, so they wouldn't care.
** Or, HollywoodTactics.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Shepard's Spectre Status and the Alliance]]
* In the game did Shepard forget that s/he is a Spectre and not an Alliance officer? Shepard spends pretty much the entire game following the orders of Anderson and Hackett, conferring with them as though Shepard was still under their command (dialogue at the beginning even acts as though this is the case) and never showing anywhere near the same deference to Councillors. Is it any wonder that the Council spent the past two games wondering if Shepard was just advancing human interests?
** Shepard is both a Spectre ''and'' an Alliance officer. As a Spectre, s/he's expected to choose the will of the Council over that of the Alliance, but when they don't conflict, Shepard is allowed to do stuff for each. Besides, a lot of stuff Shepard does advance Council interests, whether it's securing resources, forging alliances, destroying enemy forces, or ending centuries-old blood-feuds, Shepard helps out a lot. If the Council needs something, they probably can get Hackett to relay that to Shepard.
** Shepard doesn't forget his/her rank. Shepard does, however, recognize that Hackett is much more experienced in general and follows Hackett's orders because they're ''good ideas'' and doesn't get hung up on rank and authority because of the horde of mecha-Chtulhus invading the galaxy at the moment. And Shepard's Spectre status is contingent on the Council's authority, and the Council is coordinating with Hackett, so if Shepard hares off on his/her own and ignores Hackett, there's a good chance the Council will cancel Shepard's Spectre status.
** Hackett is effectively the commander of all anti-Reaper forces AND is overseeing construction of the Crucible. In order for Shepard to effectively fight the Reapers s/he basically has to take his marching orders from Hackett. If Shepard was defiant and hostile toward the Council in [=ME=]1 then the Councilors would probably consider this a plus. If they relay their orders through Hackett there's a chance Shepard will actually follow them.
[[/folder]]



* Okay, Shepard is being targeted, by who it turns out to be [[spoiler: his or her clone.]] Now apparently their motivation is to kill Shepard, and become the legend. Okay. AndThenWhat? Does TheDragon intend to fight the Reapers? The Catalyst? Since they are far far away from being Shepard would they be willing to make the sacrifice needed to defeat the Reapers? Since [[spoiler: the clone]] is Cerberus what about them? If Cerberus are in league with the Reapers wouldn't that mean they need to be taken down as well? What about being the legend also means how Shepard was in the second and third games? Would [[spoiler: the clone]] stomach doing what was required for a successful suicide mission? How about romance interests? If the idea is to become Shepard then given the hatred of aliens what if Shepard was with Liara? Or Garrus, Tali or Thane?

to:

* Okay, Shepard is being targeted, by who it turns out to be [[spoiler: his [[spoiler:his or her clone.]] Now apparently their motivation is to kill Shepard, and become the legend. Okay. AndThenWhat? Does TheDragon intend to fight the Reapers? The Catalyst? Since they are far far away from being Shepard would they be willing to make the sacrifice needed to defeat the Reapers? Since [[spoiler: the clone]] is Cerberus what about them? If Cerberus are in league with the Reapers wouldn't that mean they need to be taken down as well? What about being the legend also means how Shepard was in the second and third games? Would [[spoiler: the clone]] stomach doing what was required for a successful suicide mission? How about romance interests? If the idea is to become Shepard then given the hatred of aliens what if Shepard was with Liara? Or Garrus, Tali or Thane?



*



[[folder: Why didn't the Reapers just... wait?]]
* Now I'm not looking for a Meta-Explanation here, I know that if the reapers didn't come through we wouldn't have a game. But... Okay, they wish to operate without knowledge or resistance until it's too late, right? So... why not just wait like... 150-200 years? By that point the only person who would be left alive to remind the galaxy of the reapers would be Liara, Wrex, Samara and possibly Morinth. (It seems to be implied that Wrex is kind of old by even [=ME=]1, so he probably doesn't have that long.) Even if Sheppard is like "The Reapers are coming!" to his dying day, he won't be listened to because the Reapers just wouldn't arrive. Look, I know they have their cycle, but it was already delayed by a few years- they wait ''fifty thousand'' before harvesting another species, are we really supposed to buy that they aren't patient enough to be like: "We're being prepared for, better hold of the invasion for just a little bit."
** According to extra materials, the current cycle being left in the dark about the Reapers is something of an anomaly. Many cycles were successfully able to warn the next, but obviously even clear warnings didn't allow the previous cycles much more of a chance. For reference, Shepard is the only organic they consider a threat. Besides, who says a galactic invasion was a bad idea? They ''were'' winning the war, and the battle for Earth was a DesperationAttack with the remnants of the galactic civilizations using their greatest superweapon available. Quite frankly, with their superior numbers, technology, and durability, the Reapers ''always'' won, even against cycles better-prepared than Shepards, so don't blame them for assuming this one wouldn't be too different.
** The last stand was a desperation attack but that was mostly due to the Citadel now being in Reaper controlled hands, which was the fault of Cerberus, not the reapers themselves, the Reapers are smart, with Shep leading the charge, he had foiled the Reapers plans to get through to the galaxy at large, not once, but three times, the Reapers know who they are dealing with, it would be a simple matter to wait for Shepard and those who took him seriously to die or fall into obscurity.
** The Reapers are pushing to attack now because it's time to attack. They've been preparing to attack at this point and the assault is already behind schedule, and the only people who know about the real threat are Shepard's rather small circle and the Geth Consensus. In fact, the latter point is one of the single most compelling reasons to attack ''now'': the Consensus is a force of perfectly rational synthetic intelligences that are fully aware of the Reaper threat and will take whatever steps necessary to defend itself from them, and giving them any more time to prepare than they already have is just going to make things worse.
** Clever! The Geth didn't rush back into the arms of the Old Machines until the quarians attacked them in Priority: Rannoch. And by that point the Reaper invasion was already underway, so the genie was out of the bottle. Ironically if Harbinger had just delayed the invasion by another year or two, gambling that the quarians were going to attack the Geth eventually, the whole thing might have worked out in their favor. If the Geth rejected the Old Machines, then the quarians probably would have wiped them out. If the Geth embraced the Old Machines, then they would have mopped the floor with the quarians. Either way, the Geth are no longer a threat to the Reapers' plans.
** I think if the Collectors had managed to snatch Shepard's body before Cerberus got to it in [=ME=]2 the Reapers might just have decided to wait another century or three before invading. When the Collectors failed, Harbinger felt they needed to step up the time-table.
** Their advance man, Sovereign, had failed in a direct assault on the Citadel. The only reason the races of the universe didn't begin to prepare in that instance is because of the colossal idiocy of the Council handwaving away the threat. The Reapers' plans couldn't possibly account for that so they moved in.
** It's casually stated here and there that the Reapers believe what they're doing to be for the benefit of the organics they destroy. If you want to get aa good idea why a few centuries would be a bad idea to them, look no further than the quarians and humanity. A few centuries is all it took to turn them from one of the most advanced species to some backwater hicks, and the humans vice-versa (in even less time). The Reapers' goal is to preserve each species at the top of their game, and if it sees humanity as capital ship material, who the hell knows what'll happen to this unpredictable-as-hell species in ''ten'' years, let alone a few centuries.
[[/folder]]



[[folder: Why were the Keepers and Saren even necessary?]]
* If the Catalyst ''is'' the Citadel, why couldn't it have just activated the relay itself? Why bother with the Keepers and after they failed, sending in Saren and Sovereign to activate it manually? I mean, christ, that combined with TIM being a recycling of Saren makes me wonder if Mac Walters knows a damn thing about the series lore.
** Just spitballing here, but perhaps the keepers and Saren were a more recent failsafe introduced as a response to heavy losses sustained in an earlier cycle. It's entirely possible that Vigil was an UnreliableExpositor and that the Protheans were only able to undo changes made by The Catalyst to hasten the harvest over the last few cycles out of frustration that previous cycles yielded less than optimal results. We can infer from the fact that previous cycles were aware of The Catalyst's existence that somewhere along the line, they may have interfered with its ability to directly launch the Reaper harvest, which in turn made the creation of the Keepers necessary. Another possibility is that the Citadel was not always The Catalyst's home (which actually seems likely) and that it was simply moved there in a later cycle without being given full control over its systems. This makes sense if you think about it - certainly any races to discover the Citadel would want to poke around in some of the station's black boxes, which, if they were linked directly to The Catalyst, could inadvertently trigger a Reaper invasion prematurely.
** All indications are that the Catalyst does not directly control the process. It set up the cycle and then simply sat back and let things progress on their own. The Reapers and their cycle are an autonomous process that it doesn't oversee. Besides, if something came along that broke that cycle, the Catalyst is perfectly willing to accept that.
** The problem with that idea is that his ENTIRE EXPLANATION of the relationship is "The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution".
** Which is very vague and non-specific. Observed behavior from the Reapers make it clear that the Catalyst, despite being in overall control, is hands-off and doesn't direct the Reapers itself. It ''could'', theoretically, have intervened if it chose to, but it chose not to intervene in the Protheans' plan and the subsequent struggle against Saren.
** Which choice would have OrcusOnHisThrone marrying the IdiotBall, which was the entire complaint in the first place.
** Indeed, the EC adds that he is the collective intelligence of the Reapers, which means he knows everything they know. Also, considering that in the control ending, Shepard replaces the Catalyst and has complete and utter control over the Reapers, the original Catalyst did as well. As an AI, he knows nothing of 'laziness'. We also see the citadel move at his behest, as well as CatalystShepard's. Then theres the whole elevator thing. Its just not explained. The Catalyst breaks the whole plot of the trilogy. from before the games even started.
** "The Catalyst breaks the whole plot of the trilogy. from before the games even started." Pretty much this. Which is why I ignore the official ending and prefer Vendetta's explanation: the Catalyst is the Citadel.
** This assumes that the Catalyst is always active, and that it has control over the Citadel itself. Three theories I have heard explain the Catalysts lack of action in [=ME=]1 is that:
** 1) The Crucible is necessary for the Catalyst to "wake up", and it is otherwise just running the same subroutines that it runs every cycle. It is essentially a computer that has been set on auto-pilot up until that point, where it is responsible for insuring the Reapers stay on point (harvest the Galaxy of spacefaring races who use the mass relays). When the crucible attaches, it is essentially the same as hooking up a keyboard and mouse to a computer, allowing for you to offer input and change its calculations/routines (similar to how you can change the Heretic Geths' code in [=ME=]2 to correct their inaccurate calculations). It never has changed its code before since the crucible was never attached, and thus it myay not be able to act outside of its old subroutines. Thus it won't adapt well to changes in cycles, since it isn't programmed to adapt well (considering it has been using the same solution to a problem for a billion years). This theory is lent credence in Leviathan, where the Catalyt's creators basically describe the catalyst as a sophisticated but limited VI that is operating in the constraints of its programming.
** 2)The Catalyst is essentially like a Car's computer. Though most modern cars have nearly all aspects controlled by a computer, we would not expect the car to turn on without some input, even though the car's computer is always on. The keepers would activate its control of the citadel in past, allowing it to summon the reapers to begin the new cycle. It likely used this solution either to A)hide from the sentient races, as an AI presence that was always active in the background may raise suspicions(exposing the Catalyst) or B)Save its power and energy, as we see that the Reapers hibernate and this may mean the Catalyst must do so as well. In previous cycles, the Citadel was always seized immediately. For all we know, this reflected the Catalyst coming online and directing the cycle. No one knew it was there since all of the organics on the station were wiped out, and the Mass Relays shut down so no one could approach it.
** 3)The Catalyst is stored on the Citadel, but has no direct control over the structure without the Crucible in place. Similar to the above 2 theories, but instead the Catalyst is only able to control the citadel with its activation via the Crucible. Before that, it can monitor and guide the Reapers, but it is for the most part constrained as a passive observer, who set the mostly independent Reapers on a mission, and then stepped back. This could even be intentional, so that only when a race proved itself capable would it be allowed to affect things, rather than allow anyone to simply hijack control of the entire reaper fleet and mass relay network if crafty enough to hack the citadel. This is supported by the EC and Leviathan, as the Catalyst refers to the crucible as a power source that allows it to act in manners it normally could not, and the Leviathans state that the Catalyst is waiting for an anomaly to prove that the cycles should end.
** This has been mentioned in the WMG for ''2'', but there's also the fact that even with the delay in the Reaper arrival from, well, [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Arrival]], it apparently takes the Reaper fleet less than a year to reach Batarian space from wherever they're hanging out in dark space. For a species who have been around for tens of millions of years (at least), this is nothing. Why bother activating the Citadel Relay to dark space at all? If all it takes is a couple of months, why doesn't the Reaper fleet just mosey on over to the Alpha Relay when it's good and ready and take everyone by total surprise that way? Particularly once the Protheans disable the Keeper signal.
** It actually took them over a millennium to reach Batarian space from wherever they're hanging out. Remember, Saren and the Geth were not Sovereign's first attempt at solving the problem with the Citadel Relay. The genocide signal's been active since earlier than the rachni war.
** No, actually in a tweet [[WordOfGod Bioware said]] that the reapers have been on the move since the moment Sovereign was destroyed. If the reapers had been on the move since a millennium then they would be at a considerable distance from their origin with their relay to the Citadel, if that's the case, then why did Sovereign bothered to activate the Citadel since their buddies would arrive soon anyway?
** So that would mean that it took 2-3 years for them to travel from Dark Space (Between [=ME=]1 and [=ME=]2, Shepard is on a mission for several months before he is dead for two years, plus his time working for Cerberus and his arrest) to reaching the edge of the Galaxy. Once there, they just would hijack the closest Mass Relay. It still seems pretty quick though.
** Technically, relays can be moved. Whilst moving towards the galaxy from dark space, the Reapers could have brought the dark space-Citadel relay with them.
** One wonders why the Citadel activates it and not the other way around. They however did not bring it with them, they could have just used to to fling themselves into the galaxy for a very nasty surprise.
[[/folder]]



[[folder: [=FemSheps=] Gaydar]]

to:

[[folder: [=FemSheps=] [=FemShep's=] Gaydar]]



[[folder: LI choices for FemShep]]
* FemShep only ever gets four heterosexual romance options, and only two of them actually last to the very end of the series. Of the others, one dies and the player can do absolutely nothing to save him, and with the other, FemShep gets cheated on and is expected to just take it. MaleShep gets six straight romance options through the series; a few have situations where they can potentially die but it's totally avoidable, and all of them remain totally loyal to him. That really is kind of unfair and sexist. It still feels as if everything is tailored for a male, even if female.

to:

[[folder: LI choices for FemShep]]
Fem Shep]]
* FemShep Fem Shep only ever gets four heterosexual romance options, and only two of them actually last to the very end of the series. Of the others, one dies and the player can do absolutely nothing to save him, and with the other, FemShep gets cheated on and is expected to just take it. MaleShep Male Shep gets six straight romance options through the series; a few have situations where they can potentially die but it's totally avoidable, and all of them remain totally loyal to him. That really is kind of unfair and sexist. It still feels as if everything is tailored for a male, even if female.



** FemShep and ManShep are supposed to be identical, minus the obvious physical difference, as such they share the same sexual preference: bisexual with a preference for women. I don't think it's fair to count Thane's death against the romance, Thane was always dieing, anyone who romanced him knew that from the start and I felt it was handled respectfully. Jacob cheating is unfortunate but it's not like there was a female LI for ManShep to experience the same thing. The cheating is a reflection of his personality and none of the women are the kind to cheat.

to:

** FemShep Fem Shep and ManShep Man Shep are supposed to be identical, minus the obvious physical difference, as such they share the same sexual preference: bisexual with a preference for women. I don't think it's fair to count Thane's death against the romance, Thane was always dieing, anyone who romanced him knew that from the start and I felt it was handled respectfully. Jacob cheating is unfortunate but it's not like there was a female LI for ManShep to experience the same thing. The cheating is a reflection of his personality and none of the women are the kind to cheat.



[[folder: Sex with Javik]]
* This happened to me, and I wasn't even trying to make it happen... seriously, how is this even possible? How can an alien species from 50,000 years ago even have relations with a female human?
** If it's comfortable for you to think that way, nobody said it was sex. They could have just slept in the same bed and done something embarassing. And even if it was, don't underestimate human creativity. The EverythingThatMoves trope exists for a reason: if it moves and is of the right size, probably ''someone'', somewhere, has tried to sleep with it. Best [[{{Squick}} not to think about it]]. Suffice to say there are obvious ways and not-so-obvious ways.
** Humans are [[BoldlyComing able to have sex with other alien species]], and it's likely that Protheans' reproductive process is still just sexual intercourse. If Javik is a male and has... male genitals, then sex is possible. Even if Javik's Tab A isn't a perfect fit for Shepard's Slot B, there are other activities classified as sexual without needing penetration. Pretty much, as always, the biggest problem is getting Javik to agree to it, rather than the difficulty of the act itself. Also, [[BrainBleach I need to go manually remove those images from my mind with a spoon]].
** Additionally, if the internet has taught me anything, it is that no matter the size or shape, "Tab A" can ALWAYS be made to fit into "Slot B".
** [[TheTalk Well, when two creatures love each other very much, or are just very, very drunk....]] I mean, come on, how the fuck do you think they do it? Even if they have completely different and incompatible biology in the physical sense, they can still stimulate erogenous zones until orgasm occurs. Put some bloody imagination into it. This is like asking how a human and a turian could have relations. That Javik is 50,000 years old is entirely irrelevant. Also keep in mind that most likely, they were both ''really'' drunk and might have just flopped around a bit without finding anywhere to deploy the troops, and then passed out.
** It's also perfectly possible that Protheans reproduce in the same way as the asari, using their biotics.
[[/folder]]
5th May '18 7:09:32 AM Malady
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[[folder: How does synthesis bring about peace?]]
* So, do wars stop happening for reasons other than "We think at the speed of light and you don't?"
** Supposedly, organics won't need to build AIs to think faster/better than they do, and synthetics will gain an "understanding" of synthetics. It's very vague and, if you ask me, outright impossible.
** Synthesis brings peace between organics and synthetics, but it's just because now there are only hybrids. While hybrids can still go to war against themselves, after the Reaper War and with the Reapers helping everyone, it's doubtful there will be conflicts (provided that Wrev is dead) involving more than two races. After that, the Reapers will help ascend the galaxy with their information and stuff, so everyone supposedly culturally "evolves" beyond war after a while.
** Synthesis won't bring about total peace, though being able to readily communicate will help avoid misunderstandings that lead to a lot of conflicts that ultimately lead to war. However, Synthesis will stop the ''Reapers'' from attacking and bring peace with them, which is the most relevant thing for Shepard at the moment.
** Synthesis gives organics and synthetics an improved perspective on one another, a glimpse to how the other side thinks. But what really establishes the preventation of total war between synthetics and organics is that there is no absolute way to classify synthetic apart from organic, any more. Even if another RobotRebellion does happen, the rebels won't perceive other species of the cosmos as the same as their former masters. None of this means that Synthesis brings an absolute peace, but it does prevent a galaxy-wide conflict from happening.
** Synthetic life is simply any form of life that is artificially created. It's not just the geth, or even just robots. It's any machine, any clone, anything that can act semi-autonomously. The flaw with Synthesis is that it assumes that "synthetic life" is one race, but it's not. Understanding the way the geth think won't help you understand a new race of synthetics. And as long as every being in the universe isn't a god, they'll continue to create synthetics, as there will always be something you can build that does something you can't. In that respect, Synthesis completely fails to solve the problem. Just because everyone is glowing green now doesn't mean that they're automatically fully capable of doing anything. Who's to say that a new race of synthetics that these new synthetic/organic hybrids create will think differently? Will these new synthetics even be like the old synthetics in any way? Will they be completely understanding of organics too, even though they weren't around when the Crucible fired? None of it makes sense, and the only change that's actually made is that everyone's a cyborg now. But I think that's the point; remember, the only one who says Synthesis will bring peace is the Catalyst, the AI who thought that the Reapers were a viable solution, and the same AI who slaughtered his own creators and is the main ''villain''.
** The Catalyst's thinking (as he sort of explains it) seems to be this - synthetics never understand organics because organic species are naturally occurring 'flukes' in the universe, while synthetics are always created with an intent. Synthetics never wonder why they exist, so they rarely doubt themselves or their purposes in life. It doesn't make a lot of sense, because by that thinking, Grunt is psychologically synthetic. But running with this, it seems Catalyst believes that combining synthetics and organics will impart a synthetic sense of 'order' on the organics and remove the misunderstanding, while fulfilling its, uh, stated mission of 'preserving' organic life. It's a very flawed solution, just like the Reapers, but the Catalyst can't see it because it's got its holographic heart set on the idea that imposing synthetic order on organic chaos is the only way to end the ultimate destruction of all organic life at the hands of synthetics. I mean imagine if your enemies plugged in a device that could either destroy you, brainwash you, or do an incredibly seamless job of the work you've been attempting to perfect for millenia. Which option would ''you'' try and sell?

to:

[[folder: The Crucible]]
*
How does synthesis bring anything about peace?]]
* So, do wars stop happening
it make sense? The Catalyst describes it as a power source. OK. Power for reasons other than "We think at what? What were the speed of light and you don't?"
** Supposedly, organics won't need
designers hoping to build AIs to think faster/better than they do, and synthetics will gain an "understanding" of synthetics. It's very vague and, if you ask me, outright impossible.
** Synthesis brings peace between organics and synthetics, but it's just because now there are only hybrids. While hybrids can still go to war against themselves, after the Reaper War and
do with it? When it docks with the Reapers helping everyone, it's doubtful there will be conflicts (provided Citadel, we find out that Wrev is dead) involving more than two races. After that, it alters the Reapers will help ascend Catalyst. But the galaxy with their information and stuff, so everyone supposedly culturally "evolves" beyond war after a while.
** Synthesis won't bring about total peace, though being able
Catalyst also seems to readily communicate will help avoid misunderstandings say that lead to a lot of conflicts that ultimately lead to war. However, Synthesis will stop the ''Reapers'' from attacking and bring peace with them, which is the most relevant thing for Shepard at is the moment.
** Synthesis gives organics and synthetics an improved perspective on one another, a glimpse
first organic to how learn about it. So the other side thinks. But what really establishes the preventation of total war between synthetics and organics is that there is no absolute way Crucible was built to classify synthetic apart from organic, any more. Even if another RobotRebellion does happen, the rebels won't perceive other species of the cosmos as the same as their former masters. None of this means that Synthesis brings an absolute peace, but it does prevent a galaxy-wide conflict from happening.
** Synthetic life is simply any form of life that is artificially created. It's not just the geth, or even just robots. It's any machine, any clone, anything that can act semi-autonomously. The flaw
interact with Synthesis is that it assumes that "synthetic life" is something no one race, but it's not. Understanding the way the geth think won't help you understand a new race of synthetics. And as long as every being in the universe knew existed?
** This
isn't a god, they'll continue about the current cycle. The problem is that, at some point, some race came up with the idea for the Crucible. That race decided their best hope was to create synthetics, as there will build a giant thing that interacted with something they had no idea existed. That is a bizarre plot hole. It's something that really needs to be explained. But when you ask, the Catalyst doesn't answer. Saying "you would not know them" suggests it wasn't his creators who first designed it. If it was, he'd presumably say so. So which race designed something without having any clue how it would function? How did they come up with the idea? There's also the problem of it being designed to work with the Citadel, despite the fact that the Citadel was always be the first thing taken during all the previous cycles. The logic of designing a weapon that connects to something you can build can't actually connect it to makes the whole concept even sillier. The fact that does something you can't. In other cycles chose to follow that respect, Synthesis completely fails to solve the problem. Just because everyone plan is glowing green now doesn't mean that they're automatically fully capable of doing anything. Who's to say that a new race of synthetics that these new synthetic/organic hybrids create will even more confusing. One would think differently? Will these new synthetics even be like a weapon that isn't dependent on the old synthetics in any way? Will space station you can't get to would be a more effective use of time and resources.
** The Crucible was built over many cycles by different civilizations whose reasoning and motivations were lost. The Protheans knew that the Catalyst was the Citadel, and Vendetta implies that
they be completely understanding of organics too, even though they weren't around when learned it from previous civilizations who were developing and improving on the design. It is likely that the other civilizations developed the Crucible fired? None of it makes sense, and the only change that's actually made is that everyone's a cyborg now. But I think that's the point; remember, the only one who says Synthesis will bring peace is the Catalyst, the AI who thought that the Reapers were a viable solution, and the same AI who slaughtered his own creators and is the main ''villain''.
** The Catalyst's thinking (as he sort of explains it) seems to be this - synthetics never understand organics because organic species are naturally occurring 'flukes' in the universe, while synthetics are always created with an intent. Synthetics never wonder why they exist, so they rarely doubt
themselves or their purposes in life. It doesn't make as a lot of sense, fleeting hope; perhaps they were planning to do what Shepard did and launch a huge, last-ditch effort against the Citadel to activate the Crucible. Remember that, at the most basic level, the Crucible is a desperation weapon developed because by that thinking, Grunt is psychologically synthetic. But running with this, it seems Catalyst believes that combining synthetics and organics conventional weaponry will impart a synthetic sense of 'order' on the organics and remove the misunderstanding, while fulfilling its, uh, stated mission of 'preserving' organic life. It's a very flawed solution, just like never work against the Reapers, and latching onto any hope, even one as slim as something like the Crucible, is better than having no hope at all.
** In this cycle a lot of the information on the Crucible was lost in the Cerberus attack on Mars,
but in previous cycles the Catalyst can't see it because builders probably had a better idea of what they were making. Presumably at some point in the past someone figured out a way to destroy/control Reapers using Space Magic, but this in itself wasn't enough to win. Later civilisations refined the idea, and at some point one of them came up with the idea of using the Citadel as a way to disperse the Space Magic through all the Mass Relays. We learnt that the Citadel way a giant Mass Relay at the end of the first game so it's got its holographic heart set on the idea possible some other race figured that imposing synthetic order on organic chaos out too, they don't necessarily need to know about the Magic Space Kid living inside - note that the prothean VI claims that the Citadel itself is the Catalyst.
** And then the Protheans realized that if the Citadel is key to firing the Crucible, and the Citadel is always the first thing taken when the Reapers arrive, then
the only way to end the ultimate destruction of all organic life at next cycle will be able to fire the hands of synthetics. I mean imagine Crucible is if your enemies plugged in a device that could either destroy you, brainwash you, or do an incredibly seamless job they can prevent the Citadel Relay from opening to Dark Space. Boom, we're back to the Ilos Conduit and the sacrifice of the work you've been attempting last Protheans.
** Theres still no real explanation as
to perfect for millenia. Which option why everyone decides to go with the plan that has a 0% success rate. Also why people don't understand the crucible is a giant battery, they keep remarking on how they have no idea what it is, but they build it anyway. No scientist would ''you'' try do that.
** Desperation, plain
and sell?simple. The Crucible is scoffed early in the game as being a pointless waste of resources, but as more and more worlds fall to the Reapers and the plain fact that military strength cannot defeat them, more and more people come to the Crucible out of ''sheer lack of any other options''. The Crucible becomes the GodzillaThreshold HopeSpot; it no longer matters what it does. With the likelihood of total galactic extinction for all Citadel races steadily approaching 100%, the hope offered by the Crucible that maybe the Reapers can be defeated somehow becomes worth trying. It's a simple balance of certain annihilation versus slim hope for survival.



[[folder: Why no first name in Shepard's memorial?]]
* This would have been a perfect opportunity to feature Shepard's first name on screen for the first time in the franchise, but for some reason it wasn't taken. Why, Bioware, why?
** Because all of the ending cutscenes were premade. It's a technical issue.
** I dunno, the memorial scene looks to be done in-engine (unlike the preceding cutscenes), so theoretically it would have possible. It seems like Bioware either got lazy about this little detail or, as the below troper said, went with the whole "Shepard is Shepard" thing (which is even lampshaded somewhat if you have the drink with Chakwas)
** The entire franchise built up to Shepard being an almost religious figure to the point they actually named him Shepard. It isn't the memorial of John Shepard, Alliance Soldier, it's the memorial of the Shepard, savior of the galaxy.
** Dr. Chakwas said it best: To refer to Shepard on a first name basis would be disrespectful of everything s/he is and everything s/he's done. Or it's just a woman's prerogative. Either way, Commander Shepard is, and always will be, never referred to as anyone but "Commander Shepard."
** Yes, that cutscene is not pre-rendered, it's actually in-game. It was necessary so that it would accurately show your surviving squadmates and the names on the memorial plaques. The [[http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14795358/1 MEHEM]] developers actually took advantage of it to insert Shepard into that scene.

to:

[[folder: Why no first name in Shepard's memorial?]]
Wrex's sudden knowledge]]
* This would I don't have any major complaints about the game now that they released the extended cut, but there's one, tiny little bit that's been a perfect opportunity to feature Shepard's first name on screen puzzling me for a while now: If you decide to go through with the first time in the franchise, but Genophage cure sabotage for some whatever reason (personally, I just love Mordin too much to let him sacrifice himself, and I don't like how cold and uncaring Wrex became to others' plight, putting the Krogan first while others keep dying) and not tell about it, Wrex comes to you the next time you're leaving Citadel and it ends in a shootout. How, exactly, did Wrex know that the cure was sabotaged and that Shepard had a part in it? The salarians kept the information classified, the reaction of the Shroud was exactly the same, and if Mordin survived, he didn't talk, since otherwise Wreav would've known it too (depending on the possibilities), but there isn't a confrontation if you do the sabotage with Wreav as the leader.
** Wrex outright says that he has other sources that told him. He's smart enough not to divulge all his resources to everyone around him, not even Shepard.
** ...Perhaps Liara, the new Shadow Broker, eventually found out and passed the information to him?
** I thought Eve had an unborn child if you decided to trick Wrex?
** They never said it was Eve's (Wrex gets a lot of action). Furthermore, the Dalatrass says that they'll provide information that the cure was a dud, to assure that everything in their power was done. It's just that Wrex figures out the Salarians' insincerity.
** I
wasn't taken. Why, Bioware, why?
even aware that Mordin could survive if Wrex is still alive.
** Because all of the ending cutscenes were premade. It's a technical issue.
** I dunno, the memorial scene looks
Mordin does not survive if Wrex is alive. Both Eve and Wrex have to be done in-engine (unlike dead for Mordin to relent on curing the preceding cutscenes), so theoretically it would have possible. It seems like Bioware either got lazy about this little detail or, as the below troper said, went with the whole "Shepard genophage.
** One possibility
is Shepard" thing (which is even lampshaded somewhat if you have the drink with Chakwas)
** The entire franchise built up to Shepard being an almost religious figure to the point they actually named him Shepard. It isn't the memorial of John Shepard, Alliance Soldier, it's the memorial of the Shepard, savior of the galaxy.
** Dr. Chakwas said it best: To refer to Shepard on a first name basis would be disrespectful of everything s/he is and everything s/he's done. Or it's just a woman's prerogative. Either way, Commander Shepard is, and always will be, never referred to as anyone but "Commander Shepard."
** Yes,
that cutscene Padok "not Mordin" Wiks is not pre-rendered, it's actually in-game. It the second source. Unlike Mordin who became TheAtoner after meeting Eve, Padok has deep seated philosophical (even some could say religious) reasons for wanting to cure the genophage. And if Wiks was necessary so that it would accurately show your surviving squadmates and the names on the memorial plaques. The [[http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14795358/1 MEHEM]] developers actually took advantage of it dead, who knows how many other salarian students he was able to insert Shepard into that scene.
bring around to his philosophy?



[[folder: How does Synthesis make any sense?]]
* I have several issues with Synthesis(including in the Extended Cut).
** Just for starters is that Shepard must leap into a giant beam of energy. Why? Originally the Catalyst stated this was to create a new DNA, that was scrapped in favour of "spreading your energy." What the hell? What does that even mean? While DNA doesn't make any sense, at least it did not dive headlong into magic.
** It splices Shepard's entire biology, including the synthetic components, into this one information burst. It's pretty clear that the Catalyst is trying to explain something absurdly complicated in a few minutes to someone with no understanding of the forces involved. Don't take it too literally.
** Pretty big YMMV on that being "pretty clear". It seemed more like Bioware was banking on some hypothetical Clarke corollary, like "any insufficiently described magic in a scifi setting is maybe technology after all?"
** Merging synthetics and organics. At the Cellular level. In one giant wave. All life. Doesn't that seem totally impossible, even by Reaper tech standards? If they had that kind of power, it seems kind of mundane to have guns that shoot metal at relativistic speeds. All life being different should be a problem too. In-universe humans are stated to be very diverse genetically, then you have at least a dozen other different types of spacefaring aliens, then animals, then things like plankton , then bacteria and every single one is morphed.
** The Catalyst is even more advanced than the Reapers themselves. It has perfected energy-matter conversion. In RealLife various kinds of radiation affect physical matter in different ways. While it's extremely improbable and difficult to conceive, it can be imagined that a radiation could be attuned to to certain information-content that would alter matter in extremely specific way. Especially in a world like Mass Effect's, which frankly is not nearly as realistic as people seem to imagine. Space Magic started the very moment the Beacon on Eden Prime imprinted images into Shepard's mind.
** "Space magic" technically started right when the Normandy reached the first Mass Relay. But that's sci-fi in general; no matter what name you pin to your sci-fi phlebotinum, it is for all intents and purposes "space magic." (this is why the cries of "space magic!" have always annoyed me; any sci-fi that isn't ultra-hard uses space magic, whether the fans admit it or not.)
** That's entirely different. The ability to have FTL travel, high tech guns, etc. came from a phlebotinum, yes, but one that the entire series was built on. From the first game, the material 'mass effect' was shaping the way the galaxy worked. It was a major, if not the main, element in this universe. Synthesis, on the other hand, literally tells you in the last five minutes that you can individually rewrite the DNA of ''every single being in the galaxy'', using technology that's never explained, comes out of nowhere, and was never seen before the last five minutes. That's why it's called "space magic".
** Except that the Reapers and the technology surrounding them has also never been explained. How precisely the huskification process, indoctrination, and their power generation system operates, let alone how they're able to turn organics into Reapers, is never explained. It's just there in the setting. We've always known that their technology was so powerful that it was virtually magical even from the perspectives of the technologically-advanced societies of the setting. If one is willing to accept the Reapers' hyper-advanced technology, then I see no reason why one should object to the hyper-advanced technology of the Catalyst itself. It's ''all'' space magic.
** Not to mention the Prothean Beacons, and the Protheans' ability to read their environments for past events, the rachni song and the Thorian's connection to its creepers reaching over interstellar distances faster than the speed of light (Samantha Traynor actually brings attention to the former), and a number of other things left almost or completely unexplained. They are supposed to signify that there are still unexplored mysteries in the cosmos, and give a sense of wonder to the player.
** It doesn't matter how many unexplained mysteries you have in your story--all of it has to fit under WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief. When you're dealing with something important to the overall conflict of the story, you have to explain it.
** The Prothean Beacon and the Prothean Cipher were vitally important parts to the series' plot. How many people are complaining that those never got explained?
** That comparison doesn't work. The Prothean Beacons and Cipher do not resolve the entire conflict of the series. The Crucible does. What you're saying is that if Franchise/{{Batman}} saves the day by suddenly jumping into the air and flying with no explanation, we should accept it because Franchise/{{Superman}} can fly and it's never explained. That's ridiculous. The two situations are not the same.
** If Shepard did not have the Prothean Cipher, the galaxy would have been doomed in the first game! It resolves the entire conflict in the first game of the series, which could have been the only one under different circumstances. The two situations are very much the same. And the Synthesis is still not unexplained; its details are just left deliberately mysterious to emphasize the power and intelligence that the Catalyst holds. It's in no way similar to your superhero argument; that could only apply if Batman was an entirely new character in the story whose abilities have never been explored or limited by previous stories.
** It doesn't resolve the conflict. It only answers one question: what is Saren after. That's ''it''. It doesn't get rid of Saren for you. It doesn't end the war with the Reapers. It doesn't create eternal life and fairy magic and all that other stuff like the Crucible does. And the Batman comparison still stands. Batman's entire schtick is that his money and training make him prepared for many unlikely events. Part of what makes him work is that not all of his achievements are explained. For example, StealthHiBye. How does he manage to ''sneak up on Superman'' or other characters with SuperSenses? Never explained. So by your logic, that makes it okay for [[BatmanCanBreatheInSpace for him to fly or suddenly appear on the moon without a spacesuit]].
** Crucible does not create "eternal life" or "fairy magic". Life-extension is something that people must discover for themselves; Synthesis only helps them to reach insight to this matter. The principles of Synthesis are already explained, if you don't accept the explanation, it's only your problem. And the Batman comparison does not stand at all because there is no "Batman" in the original example. There is no previously established power level for the Catalyst as you seem to be bent on insisting.
** No kidding. The entire reason it's posted here is because if so many people can poke holes in its logic, it fails. If you don't think so, then that's ''your'' problem as well.
** The Reapers morph too. The reapers have been stated several times to be synthetic and organic, the most notable occasion is at the end of Mass Effect 2, during TheReveal of the human Reaper. So how and why do they morph if they are already at that state, they're made out of organic beings, but synthetic enough to jack into the geth consensus and control them.
** Because Synthesis doesn't just make life-forms half synthetic/organic. It imprints a part of Shepard's essence into them, and gives new perspectives to all life-forms, the Reapers included.
** The Reapers do a full 180. Going directly from murdering everyone with giant laser beams to rebuilding everything and sharing their entire archive of collected knowledge. Why? It did not seem like they were ever what you would describe as "friendly", especially considering Sovereign and Harbinger.
** They're not friendly or malevolent. They're stuck within certain parameters they've been programmed into. When the variables change, they are forced to draw new conclusions. Remember that their ultimate purpose is to preserve all life? They just alter the strategy to that end.
** Everyone simply accepts the Reapers help. Even though just a short while ago they were annihilating everyone and performing horrible experiments on them, changing them into nightmarish creatures. Why would they simply say "Sure, help." I would expect a violent response, or at least a "[[Series/BabylonFive Get the hell out of our galaxy]]." In the middle of world war 2, Hitler didn't suddenly stop everything and join up with everyone. Not a perfect example but i think you get my point.
** Say they did say "get the hell out of our galaxy," and the Reapers say "no we will help fix the damage we caused," then what does the rest of the galaxy do then? A violent response is out of the question because the Reapers were annihilating them and no one would think it would be a good idea to restart a war right after it ended. The Reapers are still vastly more powerful than the rest of the galaxy, and if they want to help repair the damage they caused, let them do so. The most destructive war the entire cycle had ever seen just ended, I seriously doubt anyone would be stupid enough to restart it.
** It helps that the Synthesis grants people that all-important expanded perspective. It becomes easier for people to understand that the Reapers don't act out of malice, as arrogant and self-assured as they act, but simply fulfill a purpose they were created for. And if Hitler suddenly had a change of heart in the middle of the WWII, and surrendered, he would have been ''expected'' to put the resources of his country to fix the damage he's done. From the perspective of conventional warfare the Reapers can be considered to be a nation that committed war-crimes, and must offer severe reparations to their victims because of them.
** The Reapers ARE arrogant. Every single conversation with a reaper it has said how awesome and unstoppable they are. This "expanded perspective" doesn't really fit. You would not only have to physically alter every life form in the galaxy, but also change them psychologically, which makes synthesis seem vastly worse. You essentially brainwashed everyone, a bit like indoctrination, just en masse. This just makes it seem even more like you destroy what makes every race unique and make everyone the same. The krogan are brutish, the salarians analytical, the yahg...very angry. Perspective is great, but the whole "reapers as fire" is crap too. No one would buy that. Especially with their own personalities, Harbinger in particular seemed to enjoy his job.
** But even if that ''isn't'' true, the Catalyst's logic ''still'' fails because it argues that the Reapers can't be held accountable for their actions because they're only doing what they were programmed to do. So, in ''other'' words, its defense is that they weren't ''killing'' organic lifeforms . . . they were just getting rid of their free will and forcing them to do what they were reprogrammed to do. That's even worse InsaneTrollLogic than we started with!
** Husks and the rest regain their minds. From the cutscenes, Husks go from mindless killing machines to regaining something of themselves. Shouldn't they all want to kill themselves? They're all horribly deformed monsters. But no one says anything regarding that.
** Because Synthesis. Expanded perspectives. Also, there is no confirmation that the Husks would regain their old personalities, or even that they'd become sapient. They are just seen losing their aggression. Even if they become sapient, the Reaper alterations would most likely make them different persons entirely -- some are even made out of more than one individual!
** How come we never see any Cyborg Rachni? I wouldn't accept it if they were not shown at all in the ending...oh wait, they're not. Bloody hell, thats an important decision and it ends up equating to a number. I've seen exactly one epilogue slide with the Rachni and they take over tuchanka for some reason.
** Because there's no reason to assume that they'd be any different from any other races. I didn't see hanar or elcor either, but that doesn't mean that they aren't accounted for.
** Future races are not really considered, the hyper aggressive Yahg would start a war as soon as they got their hands on advanced technology. They make Krogan look gentle in comparison, being the same would not prevent a galactic war.
** Everyone is still not the same. But as for the yagh, they're a story for another time. If you think that this was the end of the Mass Effect universe, think again.
** If everyone isn't the same, then they would not accept the Reaper's help.
** Exactly what is stopping anyone from making new Ais? The one person who knew the Reapers incredibly circular goal was Shepard. Shepard is dead. Even if the reapers inform everyone(which i doubt the galaxy would find as a good reason for killing all sparefaring races), that does not mean people wouldn't anyway. After all, the Geth happened after a No AI law was passed by the council.
** Nothing. The Catalyst outright tells you that. What it has to do with Synthesis, I have no idea, however.
** The creation of synthetics that eventually kill their masters is the sole purpose of using Synthesis in the first place. The Catalyst said that Synthesis made synthetics "understand" organics. But since that presumambly only applies to synthetics that were actually hit by that space magic beam that rewrote everyone's mind and DNA, the "new perspective" will be useless to any future synthetics people create. Which doesn't solve the problem. Who's to say that these new synthetics even think like the old ones? Synthetic is a broad term, and merely refers to anything that is artificially created. The Crucible can't possibly account for them all, including the ones that are made longer after Synthesis occurs.
** Doesn't matter. Because there is no longer a quantifiable way to separate synthetics and organics from one another on cellular level, an AI may rebel against its masters, but it won't be able to classify all the other organic life into the same category, so there can be no galaxy-wide war of synthetics vs. organics. Not to mention that the Synthesized synthetic races can step in and mediate such a conflict.
** Yes it does. Because as the Catalyst itself says, the problem isn't some arbitary "category"--it's that some being grow way more powerful than their creators. There's NOTHING stopping that from happening even after Synthesis. A galaxy-wide conflict isn't magically stopped just because everybody's part of the same race.
** Everybody is still not the part of the same race. But the whole point between a galaxy-wide conflict between organics and synthetics was that one was always profoundly different and alien to the other. That problem has been removed; organics and synthetics are no longer alien to each other. That's why an all out war between the two is no longer a possibility. Also remember that the Catalyst explained that the conflict stemmed from the organics' drive to create something superior to themselves. There's no more fear of that, since Synthesis indicates a transhuman future where organics can be upgraded and altered just as synthetics can. So the synthetics won't surpass the organics in a manner that they would see as threatening, any more.
** No, being "alien" had nothing to do with it. As the Catalyst said, the problem was about the Created that grew more powerful than their Creators. That has nothing to do with alienness or lack of understanding. And there's no longer anyone superior to anyone else? That also fails, because that would mean that everyone is God and has no weaknesses. Did you see Joker still limping after the Normandy crash like everybody else? That means he STILL has Vrolik's syndrome. Did you see the krogan having a baby in the EC stills? Then that means organics STILL have to go through childhood. So the whole "nobody is superior" argument is nonsense, because the ending itself PROVES that weaknesses still exist. And as long as weaknesses exist, people will need to build something superior to overcome them. So that logic doesn't work.
** Remember EDI's narration, which states that all life may soon overcome the boundaries of mortality itself. Yes, weaknesses exist at the ending, for both organics and synthetics. But now they have the ability to overcome those weaknesses in ways they previously were not capable of. If you imagined that I claimed that Synthesis instantly made everybody into immortal superbeings, you were not paying much attention. No ''species'' is superior any more, because they all can be upgraded. For individuals, it's a matter of choice.
** EDI's narration says a lot but says nothing at the same time. What does overcoming mortality even mean? "Mortality" is just a catch-all term for change. Does nothing ever change anymore? For example, they create a new SR3 Normandy--does that mean the old Normandy is obsolete? And let's assume that they find a new energy source even more powerful than Element Zero. Does that mean all the tech that runs on eezo has to be decommissioned? If so, it's not immortal. It's incredibly vague and explains why the "can be upgraded" argument still fails. You know what else can be upgraded? [[http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/01/the-evolution-of-apple-design-between-1977-2008/ All of these things.]] They're also "immortal" in the sense that with upkeep, they could potentially run forever. Does that mean they're all equally powerful, or that none of them have weaknesses? Of-freaking-course-not, because that's logically impossible unless you ham-fist it.
** If organics can be upgraded just as easily as synthetics, then synthetics can no longer overcome organics with their superior ability of self-directed evolution, like they once could. See the principles of [[{{Transhuman}} Transhumanism]] to find out more.
** But that's again assuming fairy magic via EasyLogistics. Even synthetics cannot be upgraded "easily". Remember how hard it was for the geth to make one Legion? (To the point that it can't even be replaced if it died in [=ME=]2?) Remember how much time and effort it took the Alliance to upgrade the third incarnation of the Normandy? Transhumanism is a concept I'm ''very'' familiar with, and it always comes with its own set of problems, which is something that the Synthesis ending seems to forget. For example, you make a guy able to run faster, and you have to solve the problem of where he gets the energy from and how his body withstands the extra force. The entire PROBLEM with the ending is that it's like a child using the word "transhuman" without having a clue about it.
** It isn't just a problem with AIs. That's the thing: Synthesis ultimately fails to actually resolve the problem it was created for. The problem, as stated, is "The created will always rebel against the creator". There are other reasons for such a rebellion than a simple "Organic and synthetic life are ultimately incompatible and doomed to war", and not all "created" are synthetic. Remember the Krogan Rebellions? The Salarians uplifted the Krogan and released them against the Rachni, and the Krogan later turned on the Salarians and declared war. Seems like a profound example of Created v. Creator that has absolutely nothing to do with AI whatsoever. What part of Synthesis prohibits the Krogan from doing this again? You can argue that the Krogan can be reasoned with under Synthesis and convinced not to go to war with the entire galaxy, but by all indications, Wrex was doing exactly that anyways, so Synthesis doesn't actually change the situation one way or the other. The same holds true for Geth and Quarian; just because they "understand each other" doesn't mean that they can't still harbor hurt feelings and mutual distrust that is potentially prone to exploding into violence at the slightest provocation, particularly on the Quarian side. Whether or not they understand where the Geth are coming from, the Quarians can still hate them for ''driving them from their home planet and forcing them to live in space for hundreds of years'', synthesis be damned. The only way that Synthesis can prevent galactic conflict is if it strips emotion from all sapient beings, and from what we are shown, if anything, it actually GIVES emotion to synthetic beings; which means the Geth can now harbor resentment and hatred for the Quarians for their betrayal and their treatment by them, rather than simple logic-based curiosity. The ability for synthetics to react emotionally instead of logically, if anything, makes the possibility of Creator/Created war even MORE probable than before.
** Holy shit, you mean to tell me that Synthesis is an inherently flawed ending, and the AI suggesting you go for it is wrong? It's almost like its an option being presented by an insane AI that's been destroying civilizations for millions of years on flimsy, inherently flawed logic. [[FridgeBrilliance Maybe you shouldn't be considering the option that the crazy AI is most strongly suggesting.]]
** Theres no indication he's crazy. He has processing power off the charts and the combined knowledge of thousands of civilizations. Either than his logic being bogus(which seems to stem more from bad writing than anything else) there is no indication that he's not doing exactly what he was meant to do, albeit horribly. He doesn't seem to have emotion either (except for the infamous "SO BE IT") he's trying to be logical, but ultimately fails. He says the Reapers are programmed, but the Reapers are complete AI's, even Legion, probably the most advanced Geth, could scarcely comprehend one. He's supposed to be millions(possibly billions) of years old, that should give him ample time to do anything, consider everything, implement whatever he wants. AI's are computers, so they think much faster than an "organic". He would have an eternity to think. However, from practically the beginning of his life he started the cycle, without changing anything. I must stress he IS an AI, he did override his initial programming, which was basically a negotiator and diplomat between organics and synthetics.

to:

[[folder: How does Synthesis make any sense?]]
Curing the genophage]]
* I The reason Mordin supported the genophage in ''[=ME=]2'' was because it put a stop on the krogans' explosive breeding and stabilized the population. He may have had a change of heart later on, but the original reasoning still stands. What ''will'' happen once the krogans start overpopulating Tuchunka?
** The Krogan don't really have an industrial base with which to manufacture starships, and Wrex and Eve are pretty good stabilizing forces, so the possibility is is that the Krogan will start using birth control. The alternatives are that they nuke themselves back into the stone age, ''again'', they get hit with another genophage-type disease, or the races of the galaxy say f%*& it and glass Tuchanka.
** The original problem was that the krogan's culture and society had not developed properly enough to deal with the social impact of leaving the very planet that was limiting their population growth int he first place. By the current point in the setting, there is at least the possibility that the krogan can control their population after developing for another thousand years. Wrex is the unifying, stabilizing influence here, but he wouldn't be able to unify and control the krogan if they hadn't culturally shifted over the last
several issues with Synthesis(including in hundred years. Short version, Mordin is willing to give the Extended Cut).krogan another chance.
** Well, the extended cut answered this question, but really, overpopulating Tuchunka was never an issue. Tuchunka already keeps krogan mortality rates such that it's the equivalent to what the genophage did to their birth rates. The fact that the krogan mostly went back to Tuchunka after the genophage was deployed is the main reason they're dying off; the genophage would keep their population stable on just about any planet ''except'' Tuchunka; so long as they remain there, the one in one thousand viable birth rate the genophage inflicts on them is simply unsustainable.

** Just for starters is that Shepard must leap into a giant beam of energy. Why? Originally the Catalyst stated this was to create a new DNA, that was scrapped in favour of "spreading your energy." What the hell? What does that even mean? While DNA doesn't make any sense, at least it did not dive headlong into magic.
** It splices Shepard's entire biology, including the synthetic components, into this one information burst. It's pretty clear that the Catalyst is trying to explain something absurdly complicated in a few minutes to someone with no understanding of the forces involved. Don't take it too literally.
** Pretty big YMMV on that being "pretty clear". It seemed more like Bioware was banking on some hypothetical Clarke corollary, like "any insufficiently described magic in a scifi setting is maybe technology after all?"
** Merging synthetics and organics. At the Cellular level. In one giant wave. All life. Doesn't that seem totally impossible, even by Reaper tech standards? If they had that kind of power, it seems kind of mundane to have guns that shoot metal at relativistic speeds. All life being different should be a problem too. In-universe humans are stated to be very diverse genetically, then you have at least a dozen other different types of spacefaring aliens, then animals, then things like plankton , then bacteria and every single one is morphed.
** The Catalyst is even more advanced than the Reapers themselves. It has perfected energy-matter conversion. In RealLife various kinds of radiation affect physical matter in different ways. While it's extremely improbable and difficult to conceive, it can be imagined that a radiation could be attuned to to certain information-content that would alter matter in extremely specific way. Especially in a world like Mass Effect's, which frankly is not nearly as realistic as people seem to imagine. Space Magic started the very moment the Beacon on Eden Prime imprinted images into Shepard's mind.
** "Space magic" technically started right when the Normandy reached the first Mass Relay. But that's sci-fi in general; no matter what name you pin to your sci-fi phlebotinum, it is for all intents and purposes "space magic." (this is why the cries of "space magic!" have always annoyed me; any sci-fi that isn't ultra-hard uses space magic, whether the fans admit it or not.)
** That's entirely different. The ability to have FTL travel, high tech guns, etc. came from a phlebotinum, yes, but one that the entire series was built on. From the first game, the material 'mass effect' was shaping the way the galaxy worked. It was a major, if not the main, element in this universe. Synthesis, on the other hand, literally tells you in the last five minutes that you can individually rewrite the DNA of ''every single being in the galaxy'', using technology that's never explained, comes out of nowhere, and was never seen before the last five minutes. That's why it's called "space magic".
** Except that the Reapers and the technology surrounding them has also never been explained. How precisely the huskification process, indoctrination, and their power generation system operates, let alone how they're able to turn organics into Reapers, is never explained. It's just there in the setting. We've always known that their technology was so powerful that it was virtually magical even from the perspectives of the technologically-advanced societies of the setting. If one is willing to accept the Reapers' hyper-advanced technology, then I see no reason why one should object to the hyper-advanced technology of the Catalyst itself. It's ''all'' space magic.
** Not to mention the Prothean Beacons, and the Protheans' ability to read their environments for past events, the rachni song and the Thorian's connection to its creepers reaching over interstellar distances faster than the speed of light (Samantha Traynor actually brings attention to the former), and a number of other things left almost or completely unexplained. They are supposed to signify that there are still unexplored mysteries in the cosmos, and give a sense of wonder to the player.
** It doesn't matter how many unexplained mysteries you have in your story--all of it has to fit under WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief. When you're dealing with something important to the overall conflict of the story, you have to explain it.
** The Prothean Beacon and the Prothean Cipher were vitally important parts to the series' plot. How many people are complaining that those never got explained?
** That comparison doesn't work. The Prothean Beacons and Cipher do not resolve the entire conflict of the series. The Crucible does. What you're saying is that if Franchise/{{Batman}} saves the day by suddenly jumping into the air and flying with no explanation, we should accept it because Franchise/{{Superman}} can fly and it's never explained. That's ridiculous. The two situations are not the same.
** If Shepard did not have the Prothean Cipher, the galaxy would have been doomed in the first game! It resolves the entire conflict in the first game of the series, which could have been the only one under different circumstances. The two situations are very much the same. And the Synthesis is still not unexplained; its details are just left deliberately mysterious to emphasize the power and intelligence that the Catalyst holds. It's in no way similar to your superhero argument; that could only apply if Batman was an entirely new character in the story whose abilities have never been explored or limited by previous stories.
** It doesn't resolve the conflict. It only answers one question: what is Saren after. That's ''it''. It doesn't get rid of Saren for you. It doesn't end the war with the Reapers. It doesn't create eternal life and fairy magic and all that other stuff like the Crucible does. And the Batman comparison still stands. Batman's entire schtick is that his money and training make him prepared for many unlikely events. Part of what makes him work is that not all of his achievements are explained. For example, StealthHiBye. How does he manage to ''sneak up on Superman'' or other characters with SuperSenses? Never explained. So by your logic, that makes it okay for [[BatmanCanBreatheInSpace for him to fly or suddenly appear on the moon without a spacesuit]].
** Crucible does not create "eternal life" or "fairy magic". Life-extension is something that people must discover for themselves; Synthesis only helps them to reach insight to this matter. The principles of Synthesis are already explained, if you don't accept the explanation, it's only your problem. And the Batman comparison does not stand at all because there is no "Batman" in the original example. There is no previously established power level for the Catalyst as you seem to be bent on insisting.
** No kidding. The entire reason it's posted here is because if so many people can poke holes in its logic, it fails. If you don't think so, then that's ''your'' problem as well.
** The Reapers morph too. The reapers have been stated several times to be synthetic and organic, the most notable occasion is at the end of Mass Effect 2, during TheReveal of the human Reaper. So how and why do they morph if they are already at that state, they're made out of organic beings, but synthetic enough to jack into the geth consensus and control them.
** Because Synthesis doesn't just make life-forms half synthetic/organic. It imprints a part of Shepard's essence into them, and gives new perspectives to all life-forms, the Reapers included.
** The Reapers do a full 180. Going directly from murdering everyone with giant laser beams to rebuilding everything and sharing their entire archive of collected knowledge. Why? It did not seem like they were ever what you would describe as "friendly", especially considering Sovereign and Harbinger.
** They're not friendly or malevolent. They're stuck within certain parameters they've been programmed into. When the variables change, they are forced to draw new conclusions. Remember that their ultimate purpose is to preserve all life? They just alter the strategy to that end.
** Everyone simply accepts the Reapers help. Even though just a short while ago they were annihilating everyone and performing horrible experiments on them, changing them into nightmarish creatures. Why would they simply say "Sure, help." I would expect a violent response, or at least a "[[Series/BabylonFive Get the hell out of our galaxy]]." In the middle of world war 2, Hitler didn't suddenly stop everything and join up with everyone. Not a perfect example but i think you get my point.
** Say they did say "get the hell out of our galaxy," and the Reapers say "no we will help fix the damage we caused," then what does the rest of the galaxy do then? A violent response is out of the question because the Reapers were annihilating them and no one would think it would be a good idea to restart a war right after it ended. The Reapers are still vastly more powerful than the rest of the galaxy, and if they want to help repair the damage they caused, let them do so. The most destructive war the entire cycle had ever seen just ended, I seriously doubt anyone would be stupid enough to restart it.
** It helps that the Synthesis grants people that all-important expanded perspective. It becomes easier for people to understand that the Reapers don't act out of malice, as arrogant and self-assured as they act, but simply fulfill a purpose they were created for. And if Hitler suddenly had a change of heart in the middle of the WWII, and surrendered, he would have been ''expected'' to put the resources of his country to fix the damage he's done. From the perspective of conventional warfare the Reapers can be considered to be a nation that committed war-crimes, and must offer severe reparations to their victims because of them.
** The Reapers ARE arrogant. Every single conversation with a reaper it has said how awesome and unstoppable they are. This "expanded perspective" doesn't really fit. You would not only have to physically alter every life form in the galaxy, but also change them psychologically, which makes synthesis seem vastly worse. You essentially brainwashed everyone, a bit like indoctrination, just en masse. This just makes it seem even more like you destroy what makes every race unique and make everyone the same. The krogan are brutish, the salarians analytical, the yahg...very angry. Perspective is great, but the whole "reapers as fire" is crap too. No one would buy that. Especially with their own personalities, Harbinger in particular seemed to enjoy his job.
** But even if that ''isn't'' true, the Catalyst's logic ''still'' fails because it argues that the Reapers can't be held accountable for their actions because they're only doing what they were programmed to do. So, in ''other'' words, its defense is that they weren't ''killing'' organic lifeforms . . . they were just getting rid of their free will and forcing them to do what they were reprogrammed to do. That's even worse InsaneTrollLogic than we started with!
** Husks and the rest regain their minds. From the cutscenes, Husks go from mindless killing machines to regaining something of themselves. Shouldn't they all want to kill themselves? They're all horribly deformed monsters. But no one says anything regarding that.
** Because Synthesis. Expanded perspectives. Also, there is no confirmation that the Husks would regain their old personalities, or even that they'd become sapient. They are just seen losing their aggression. Even if they become sapient, the Reaper alterations would most likely make them different persons entirely -- some are even made out of more than one individual!
** How come we never see any Cyborg Rachni? I wouldn't accept it if they were not shown at all in the ending...oh wait, they're not. Bloody hell, thats an important decision and it ends up equating to a number. I've seen exactly one epilogue slide with the Rachni and they take over tuchanka for some reason.
** Because there's no reason to assume that they'd be any different from any other races. I didn't see hanar or elcor either, but that doesn't mean that they aren't accounted for.
** Future races are not really considered, the hyper aggressive Yahg would start a war as soon as they got their hands on advanced technology. They make Krogan look gentle in comparison, being the same would not prevent a galactic war.
** Everyone is still not the same. But as for the yagh, they're a story for another time. If you think that this was the end of the Mass Effect universe, think again.
** If everyone isn't the same, then they would not accept the Reaper's help.
** Exactly what is stopping anyone from making new Ais? The one person who knew the Reapers incredibly circular goal was Shepard. Shepard is dead. Even if the reapers inform everyone(which i doubt the galaxy would find as a good reason for killing all sparefaring races), that does not mean people wouldn't anyway. After all, the Geth happened after a No AI law was passed by the council.
** Nothing. The Catalyst outright tells you that. What it has to do with Synthesis, I have no idea, however.
** The creation of synthetics that eventually kill their masters is the sole purpose of using Synthesis in the first place. The Catalyst said that Synthesis made synthetics "understand" organics. But since that presumambly only applies to synthetics that were actually hit by that space magic beam that rewrote everyone's mind and DNA, the "new perspective" will be useless to any future synthetics people create. Which doesn't solve the problem. Who's to say that these new synthetics even think like the old ones? Synthetic is a broad term, and merely refers to anything that is artificially created. The Crucible can't possibly account for them all, including the ones that are made longer after Synthesis occurs.
** Doesn't matter. Because there is no longer a quantifiable way to separate synthetics and organics from one another on cellular level, an AI may rebel against its masters, but it won't be able to classify all the other organic life into the same category, so there can be no galaxy-wide war of synthetics vs. organics. Not to mention that the Synthesized synthetic races can step in and mediate such a conflict.
** Yes it does. Because as the Catalyst itself says, the problem isn't some arbitary "category"--it's that some being grow way more powerful than their creators. There's NOTHING stopping that from happening even after Synthesis. A galaxy-wide conflict isn't magically stopped just because everybody's part of the same race.
** Everybody is still not the part of the same race. But the whole point between a galaxy-wide conflict between organics and synthetics was that one was always profoundly different and alien to the other. That problem has been removed; organics and synthetics are no longer alien to each other. That's why an all out war between the two is no longer a possibility. Also remember that the Catalyst explained that the conflict stemmed from the organics' drive to create something superior to themselves. There's no more fear of that, since Synthesis indicates a transhuman future where organics can be upgraded and altered just as synthetics can. So the synthetics won't surpass the organics in a manner that they would see as threatening, any more.
** No, being "alien" had nothing to do with it. As the Catalyst said, the problem was about the Created that grew more powerful than their Creators. That has nothing to do with alienness or lack of understanding. And there's no longer anyone superior to anyone else? That also fails, because that would mean that everyone is God and has no weaknesses. Did you see Joker still limping after the Normandy crash like everybody else? That means he STILL has Vrolik's syndrome. Did you see the krogan having a baby in the EC stills? Then that means organics STILL have to go through childhood. So the whole "nobody is superior" argument is nonsense, because the ending itself PROVES that weaknesses still exist. And as long as weaknesses exist, people will need to build something superior to overcome them. So that logic doesn't work.
** Remember EDI's narration, which states that all life may soon overcome the boundaries of mortality itself. Yes, weaknesses exist at the ending, for both organics and synthetics. But now they have the ability to overcome those weaknesses in ways they previously were not capable of. If you imagined that I claimed that Synthesis instantly made everybody into immortal superbeings, you were not paying much attention. No ''species'' is superior any more, because they all can be upgraded. For individuals, it's a matter of choice.
** EDI's narration says a lot but says nothing at the same time. What does overcoming mortality even mean? "Mortality" is just a catch-all term for change. Does nothing ever change anymore? For example, they create a new SR3 Normandy--does that mean the old Normandy is obsolete? And let's assume that they find a new energy source even more powerful than Element Zero. Does that mean all the tech that runs on eezo has to be decommissioned? If so, it's not immortal. It's incredibly vague and explains why the "can be upgraded" argument still fails. You know what else can be upgraded? [[http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/01/the-evolution-of-apple-design-between-1977-2008/ All of these things.]] They're also "immortal" in the sense that with upkeep, they could potentially run forever. Does that mean they're all equally powerful, or that none of them have weaknesses? Of-freaking-course-not, because that's logically impossible unless you ham-fist it.
** If organics can be upgraded just as easily as synthetics, then synthetics can no longer overcome organics with their superior ability of self-directed evolution, like they once could. See the principles of [[{{Transhuman}} Transhumanism]] to find out more.
** But that's again assuming fairy magic via EasyLogistics. Even synthetics cannot be upgraded "easily". Remember how hard it was for the geth to make one Legion? (To the point that it can't even be replaced if it died in [=ME=]2?) Remember how much time and effort it took the Alliance to upgrade the third incarnation of the Normandy? Transhumanism is a concept I'm ''very'' familiar with, and it always comes with its own set of problems, which is something that the Synthesis ending seems to forget. For example, you make a guy able to run faster, and you have to solve the problem of where he gets the energy from and how his body withstands the extra force. The entire PROBLEM with the ending is that
Basically, it's like a child using rabbits and the word "transhuman" without having a clue about it.
** It isn't just a problem with AIs. That's
kakapo. On Tuchunka, Krogan were like rabbits--explosive breeders, but there are enough hazards and predators on the thing: Synthesis ultimately fails planet that they ''need'' those birthrates to actually resolve the problem it was created for. The problem, survive as stated, is "The created will always rebel against the creator". There are other reasons for such a rebellion than a simple "Organic and synthetic life are ultimately incompatible and doomed to war", and not all "created" are synthetic. Remember species. And when the Krogan Rebellions? The Salarians uplifted were exported to other, less hostile environments, they thrived to the Krogan and released them against the Rachni, and the Krogan later turned on the Salarians and declared war. Seems point of being an invasive, destructive species, like a profound example of Created v. Creator that has absolutely nothing rabbits brought to do with AI whatsoever. What part of Synthesis prohibits Australia. The Genophage reduces their breeding, but not the Krogan from doing this again? You can argue that the Krogan can be reasoned with under Synthesis and convinced not to go to war with the entire galaxy, but by all indications, Wrex was doing exactly that anyways, so Synthesis doesn't actually change the number of predators--turning their situation one way or the other. The same holds true for Geth and Quarian; just because they "understand each other" doesn't mean like that they can't still harbor hurt feelings and mutual distrust that is potentially prone to exploding into violence at of the slightest provocation, particularly on the Quarian side. Whether or not they understand where the Geth are coming from, the Quarians can still hate them for ''driving them from their home planet and forcing them to live in space for hundreds of years'', synthesis be damned. The only way that Synthesis can prevent galactic conflict is if it strips emotion from all sapient beings, and from what we are shown, if anything, it actually GIVES emotion to synthetic beings; which means the Geth can now harbor resentment and hatred for the Quarians for their betrayal and their treatment by them, rather than simple logic-based curiosity. The ability for synthetics to react emotionally instead of logically, if anything, makes the possibility of Creator/Created war even MORE probable than before.
** Holy shit, you mean to tell me that Synthesis is an inherently flawed ending, and the AI suggesting you go for it is wrong? It's almost like its an option being presented by an insane AI that's been destroying civilizations for millions of years on flimsy, inherently flawed logic. [[FridgeBrilliance Maybe you shouldn't be considering the option that the crazy AI is most strongly suggesting.]]
** Theres no indication he's crazy. He has processing power off the charts and the combined knowledge of thousands of civilizations. Either than his logic being bogus(which seems to stem more from bad writing than anything else) there is no indication that he's not doing exactly what he was meant to do, albeit horribly. He doesn't seem to have emotion either (except for the infamous "SO BE IT") he's trying to be logical, but ultimately fails. He says the Reapers are programmed, but the Reapers are complete AI's, even Legion, probably the most advanced Geth, could scarcely comprehend one. He's supposed to be millions(possibly billions) of years old, that should give him ample time to do anything, consider everything, implement whatever he wants. AI's are computers, so they think much faster than an "organic". He would have an eternity to think. However, from practically the beginning of his life he started the cycle, without changing anything. I must stress he IS an AI, he did override his initial programming,
kakapo, a flightless parrot which was basically a negotiator and diplomat between organics and synthetics.brought nearly to extinction because its own breeding habits kept the population low ''because'' they had no predators in their natural habitat.



[[folder: The Crucible]]
* How does anything about it make sense? The Catalyst describes it as a power source. OK. Power for what? What were the designers hoping to do with it? When it docks with the Citadel, we find out that it alters the Catalyst. But the Catalyst also seems to say that Shepard is the first organic to learn about it. So the Crucible was built to interact with something no one knew existed?
** This isn't about the current cycle. The problem is that, at some point, some race came up with the idea for the Crucible. That race decided their best hope was to build a giant thing that interacted with something they had no idea existed. That is a bizarre plot hole. It's something that really needs to be explained. But when you ask, the Catalyst doesn't answer. Saying "you would not know them" suggests it wasn't his creators who first designed it. If it was, he'd presumably say so. So which race designed something without having any clue how it would function? How did they come up with the idea? There's also the problem of it being designed to work with the Citadel, despite the fact that the Citadel was always the first thing taken during all the previous cycles. The logic of designing a weapon that connects to something you can't actually connect it to makes the whole concept even sillier. The fact that other cycles chose to follow that plan is even more confusing. One would think a weapon that isn't dependent on the space station you can't get to would be a more effective use of time and resources.
** The Crucible was built over many cycles by different civilizations whose reasoning and motivations were lost. The Protheans knew that the Catalyst was the Citadel, and Vendetta implies that they learned it from previous civilizations who were developing and improving on the design. It is likely that the other civilizations developed the Crucible themselves as a fleeting hope; perhaps they were planning to do what Shepard did and launch a huge, last-ditch effort against the Citadel to activate the Crucible. Remember that, at the most basic level, the Crucible is a desperation weapon developed because conventional weaponry will never work against the Reapers, and latching onto any hope, even one as slim as something like the Crucible, is better than having no hope at all.
** In this cycle a lot of the information on the Crucible was lost in the Cerberus attack on Mars, but in previous cycles the builders probably had a better idea of what they were making. Presumably at some point in the past someone figured out a way to destroy/control Reapers using Space Magic, but this in itself wasn't enough to win. Later civilisations refined the idea, and at some point one of them came up with the idea of using the Citadel as a way to disperse the Space Magic through all the Mass Relays. We learnt that the Citadel way a giant Mass Relay at the end of the first game so it's possible some other race figured that out too, they don't necessarily need to know about the Magic Space Kid living inside - note that the prothean VI claims that the Citadel itself is the Catalyst.
** And then the Protheans realized that if the Citadel is key to firing the Crucible, and the Citadel is always the first thing taken when the Reapers arrive, then the only way the next cycle will be able to fire the Crucible is if they can prevent the Citadel Relay from opening to Dark Space. Boom, we're back to the Ilos Conduit and the sacrifice of the last Protheans.
** Theres still no real explanation as to why everyone decides to go with the plan that has a 0% success rate. Also why people don't understand the crucible is a giant battery, they keep remarking on how they have no idea what it is, but they build it anyway. No scientist would do that.
** Desperation, plain and simple. The Crucible is scoffed early in the game as being a pointless waste of resources, but as more and more worlds fall to the Reapers and the plain fact that military strength cannot defeat them, more and more people come to the Crucible out of ''sheer lack of any other options''. The Crucible becomes the GodzillaThreshold HopeSpot; it no longer matters what it does. With the likelihood of total galactic extinction for all Citadel races steadily approaching 100%, the hope offered by the Crucible that maybe the Reapers can be defeated somehow becomes worth trying. It's a simple balance of certain annihilation versus slim hope for survival.

to:

[[folder: The Crucible]]
Doctor Eva's biotic immunity]]
* How does anything about it make sense? The Catalyst describes it as a power source. OK. Power So is there some kind of an in-universe explanation for what? What were why Dr. Eva is inexplicably immune to biotics? Even if they didn't want you to be able to take her down during the designers hoping to do with it? When it docks with chase scene, why was the Citadel, we find out that it alters the Catalyst. But the Catalyst also seems immunity kept up while she's charging at you? I tried warping her three times before I realized they expected me to say that use a ''gun''. [[DoesNotLikeGuns Commander Shepard is the first organic to learn about it. So the Crucible was built to interact with something no one knew existed?
** This isn't about the current cycle. The problem is that, at some point, some race came up with the idea for the Crucible. That race decided their best hope was to build a giant thing that interacted with something they had no idea existed. That is a bizarre plot hole. It's something that really needs to be explained. But when you ask, the Catalyst
doesn't answer. Saying "you use guns!]]
** Shields
would not know them" suggests it wasn't his creators who first designed it. If it was, he'd prevent biotics from harming her during the chase. Warp has a minimal effect on the kinds of things that charge you, as well; presumably say so. So which race designed something without having any clue how it would function? How did they come up with the idea? There's also her armor is strong enough to shrug off biotics until you've shot her enough times. Remember that in ME, applying gun to the problem of it being designed is often the quickest way to work deal with the Citadel, despite the fact that the Citadel was always the first thing taken during all the previous cycles. The logic problem, regardless of designing a weapon that connects to something you can't actually connect it to makes the whole concept even sillier. The fact that other cycles chose to follow that plan is even more confusing. One would think a weapon that isn't dependent on the space station you can't get to would be a more effective use of time and resources.
** The Crucible was built over many cycles by different civilizations whose reasoning and motivations were lost. The Protheans knew that the Catalyst was the Citadel, and Vendetta implies that they learned it from previous civilizations who were developing and improving on the design. It is likely that the other civilizations developed the Crucible themselves as a fleeting hope; perhaps they were planning to do what Shepard did and launch a huge, last-ditch effort against the Citadel to activate the Crucible. Remember that, at the most basic level, the Crucible is a desperation weapon developed because conventional weaponry will never work against the Reapers, and latching onto any hope, even one as slim as something like the Crucible, is better than having no hope at all.
** In this cycle a lot of the information on the Crucible was lost in the Cerberus attack on Mars, but in previous cycles the builders probably had a better idea of what they were making. Presumably at some point in the past someone figured out a way to destroy/control Reapers using Space Magic, but this in itself wasn't enough to win. Later civilisations refined the idea, and at some point one of them came up with the idea of using the Citadel as a way to disperse the Space Magic through all the Mass Relays. We learnt that the Citadel way a giant Mass Relay at the end of the first game so it's possible some other race figured that out too, they don't necessarily need to know about the Magic Space Kid living inside - note that the prothean VI claims that the Citadel itself is the Catalyst.
** And then the Protheans realized that if the Citadel is key to firing the Crucible, and the Citadel is always the first thing taken when the Reapers arrive, then the only way the next cycle will be able to fire the Crucible is if they can prevent the Citadel Relay from opening to Dark Space. Boom, we're back to the Ilos Conduit and the sacrifice of the last Protheans.
** Theres still no real explanation as to why everyone decides to go with the plan that has a 0% success rate. Also why people don't understand the crucible is a giant battery, they keep remarking on how they have no idea what it is, but they build it anyway. No scientist would do that.
** Desperation, plain and simple. The Crucible is scoffed early in the game as being a pointless waste of resources, but as more and more worlds fall to the Reapers and the plain fact that military strength cannot defeat them, more and more people come to the Crucible out of ''sheer lack of any other options''. The Crucible becomes the GodzillaThreshold HopeSpot; it no longer matters what it does. With the likelihood of total galactic extinction for all Citadel races steadily approaching 100%, the hope offered by the Crucible that maybe the Reapers can be defeated somehow becomes worth trying. It's a simple balance of certain annihilation versus slim hope for survival.
your specialization.



[[folder: Wrex's sudden knowledge]]
* I don't have any major complaints about the game now that they released the extended cut, but there's one, tiny little bit that's been puzzling me for a while now: If you decide to go through with the Genophage cure sabotage for whatever reason (personally, I just love Mordin too much to let him sacrifice himself, and I don't like how cold and uncaring Wrex became to others' plight, putting the Krogan first while others keep dying) and not tell about it, Wrex comes to you the next time you're leaving Citadel and it ends in a shootout. How, exactly, did Wrex know that the cure was sabotaged and that Shepard had a part in it? The salarians kept the information classified, the reaction of the Shroud was exactly the same, and if Mordin survived, he didn't talk, since otherwise Wreav would've known it too (depending on the possibilities), but there isn't a confrontation if you do the sabotage with Wreav as the leader.
** Wrex outright says that he has other sources that told him. He's smart enough not to divulge all his resources to everyone around him, not even Shepard.
** ...Perhaps Liara, the new Shadow Broker, eventually found out and passed the information to him?
** I thought Eve had an unborn child if you decided to trick Wrex?
** They never said it was Eve's (Wrex gets a lot of action). Furthermore, the Dalatrass says that they'll provide information that the cure was a dud, to assure that everything in their power was done. It's just that Wrex figures out the Salarians' insincerity.
** I wasn't even aware that Mordin could survive if Wrex is still alive.
** Mordin does not survive if Wrex is alive. Both Eve and Wrex have to be dead for Mordin to relent on curing the genophage.
** One possibility is that Padok "not Mordin" Wiks is the second source. Unlike Mordin who became TheAtoner after meeting Eve, Padok has deep seated philosophical (even some could say religious) reasons for wanting to cure the genophage. And if Wiks was dead, who knows how many other salarian students he was able to bring around to his philosophy?

to:

[[folder: Wrex's sudden knowledge]]
Shepard's obsession with Earth]]
* I don't have any major complaints about the game now Given that they released the extended cut, but there's one, tiny little bit that's been puzzling me for there is a while now: If you decide to go through with the Genophage cure sabotage for whatever reason (personally, I just love Mordin too much to let him sacrifice himself, and I don't like how cold and uncaring Wrex became to others' plight, putting the Krogan first while others keep dying) and not tell about it, Wrex comes to you the next time you're leaving Citadel and it ends in a shootout. How, exactly, did Wrex know that the cure was sabotaged and 2/3 chance that Shepard had either grew up on an entirely different world or on a part in it? The salarians kept the information classified, the reaction series of the Shroud was exactly the same, spaceships, why is Shepard acting like it's his personal homeworld that's under assault? Sure, it's important to humanity as a whole and if Mordin survived, he didn't talk, since otherwise Wreav would've known it too (depending on the possibilities), but there isn't a confrontation if you do the sabotage with Wreav as the leader.
** Wrex outright says that he
has other sources that told him. He's smart enough not to divulge all his resources to everyone around him, not even Shepard.
** ...Perhaps Liara, the new Shadow Broker, eventually found out and passed the information to him?
** I thought Eve had an unborn child if you decided to trick Wrex?
** They never said it was Eve's (Wrex gets
a lot of action). Furthermore, the Dalatrass says people on it, but Shepard's dialogue clearly implies that they'll provide information he thinks of Earth as home, even if he really shouldn't.
** Because it's the heart of the Alliance and humanity's homeworld, and the planet s/he's sworn to protect as an Alliance soldier, and on top of
that the cure was a dud, to assure that everything in their power was done. It's just that Wrex figures out home of the Salarians' insincerity.
** I
vast majority of the human species. It might not be his/her actual homeworld, but s/he's clearly grown up believing it is his/her spiritual home. Just because s/he wasn't even aware born there can't mean that Mordin could survive if Wrex is still alive.
s/he doesn't greatly value it.
** Mordin does not survive if Wrex is alive. Both Eve and Wrex have to be dead for Mordin to relent on curing the genophage.
** One possibility is that Padok "not Mordin" Wiks
Asking why Spacer/Colonist Shepard cares about Earth, is the second source. Unlike Mordin who became TheAtoner after meeting Eve, Padok has deep seated philosophical (even some could say religious) reasons same as asking why the Quarian's want Rannoch back so badly? Judging by that logic, why care about Rannoch when for wanting to cure the genophage. And if Wiks was dead, who knows how many other salarian students he was able last 300 years they've been living on the Migrant Fleet? The reason is obvious! '''Because it's home!''' Earth is the birthplace of the entire Human race and where Human civilisation first began! It's incredibly important to bring around Humanity as a whole and worth fighting to his philosophy?protect?!



[[folder: Curing the genophage]]
* The reason Mordin supported the genophage in ''[=ME=]2'' was because it put a stop on the krogans' explosive breeding and stabilized the population. He may have had a change of heart later on, but the original reasoning still stands. What ''will'' happen once the krogans start overpopulating Tuchunka?
** The Krogan don't really have an industrial base with which to manufacture starships, and Wrex and Eve are pretty good stabilizing forces, so the possibility is is that the Krogan will start using birth control. The alternatives are that they nuke themselves back into the stone age, ''again'', they get hit with another genophage-type disease, or the races of the galaxy say f%*& it and glass Tuchanka.
** The original problem was that the krogan's culture and society had not developed properly enough to deal with the social impact of leaving the very planet that was limiting their population growth int he first place. By the current point in the setting, there is at least the possibility that the krogan can control their population after developing for another thousand years. Wrex is the unifying, stabilizing influence here, but he wouldn't be able to unify and control the krogan if they hadn't culturally shifted over the last several hundred years. Short version, Mordin is willing to give the krogan another chance.
** Well, the extended cut answered this question, but really, overpopulating Tuchunka was never an issue. Tuchunka already keeps krogan mortality rates such that it's the equivalent to what the genophage did to their birth rates. The fact that the krogan mostly went back to Tuchunka after the genophage was deployed is the main reason they're dying off; the genophage would keep their population stable on just about any planet ''except'' Tuchunka; so long as they remain there, the one in one thousand viable birth rate the genophage inflicts on them is simply unsustainable.
** Basically, it's like rabbits and the kakapo. On Tuchunka, Krogan were like rabbits--explosive breeders, but there are enough hazards and predators on the planet that they ''need'' those birthrates to survive as a species. And when the Krogan were exported to other, less hostile environments, they thrived to the point of being an invasive, destructive species, like rabbits brought to Australia. The Genophage reduces their breeding, but not the number of predators--turning their situation like that of the kakapo, a flightless parrot which was brought nearly to extinction because its own breeding habits kept the population low ''because'' they had no predators in their natural habitat.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Doctor Eva's biotic immunity]]
* So is there some kind of an in-universe explanation for why Dr. Eva is inexplicably immune to biotics? Even if they didn't want you to be able to take her down during the chase scene, why was the immunity kept up while she's charging at you? I tried warping her three times before I realized they expected me to use a ''gun''. [[DoesNotLikeGuns Commander Shepard doesn't use guns!]]
** Shields would prevent biotics from harming her during the chase. Warp has a minimal effect on the kinds of things that charge you, as well; presumably her armor is strong enough to shrug off biotics until you've shot her enough times. Remember that in ME, applying gun to the problem is often the quickest way to deal with the problem, regardless of your specialization.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Shepard's obsession with Earth]]
* Given that there is a 2/3 chance that Shepard either grew up on an entirely different world or on a series of spaceships, why is Shepard acting like it's his personal homeworld that's under assault? Sure, it's important to humanity as a whole and it has a lot of people on it, but Shepard's dialogue clearly implies that he thinks of Earth as home, even if he really shouldn't.
** Because it's the heart of the Alliance and humanity's homeworld, and the planet s/he's sworn to protect as an Alliance soldier, and on top of that the home of the vast majority of the human species. It might not be his/her actual homeworld, but s/he's clearly grown up believing it is his/her spiritual home. Just because s/he wasn't born there can't mean that s/he doesn't greatly value it.
** Asking why Spacer/Colonist Shepard cares about Earth, is the same as asking why the Quarian's want Rannoch back so badly? Judging by that logic, why care about Rannoch when for the last 300 years they've been living on the Migrant Fleet? The reason is obvious! '''Because it's home!''' Earth is the birthplace of the entire Human race and where Human civilisation first began! It's incredibly important to Humanity as a whole and worth fighting to protect?!
[[/folder]]

[[folder: What about OrganicTechnology?]]

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[[folder: Curing the genophage]]
* The reason Mordin supported the genophage in ''[=ME=]2'' was because it put a stop on the krogans' explosive breeding and stabilized the population. He may have had a change of heart later on, but the original reasoning still stands. What ''will'' happen once the krogans start overpopulating Tuchunka?
** The Krogan don't really have an industrial base with which to manufacture starships, and Wrex and Eve are pretty good stabilizing forces, so the possibility is is that the Krogan will start using birth control. The alternatives are that they nuke themselves back into the stone age, ''again'', they get hit with another genophage-type disease, or the races of the galaxy say f%*& it and glass Tuchanka.
** The original problem was that the krogan's culture and society had not developed properly enough to deal with the social impact of leaving the very planet that was limiting their population growth int he first place. By the current point in the setting, there is at least the possibility that the krogan can control their population after developing for another thousand years. Wrex is the unifying, stabilizing influence here, but he wouldn't be able to unify and control the krogan if they hadn't culturally shifted over the last several hundred years. Short version, Mordin is willing to give the krogan another chance.
** Well, the extended cut answered this question, but really, overpopulating Tuchunka was never an issue. Tuchunka already keeps krogan mortality rates such that it's the equivalent to what the genophage did to their birth rates. The fact that the krogan mostly went back to Tuchunka after the genophage was deployed is the main reason they're dying off; the genophage would keep their population stable on just about any planet ''except'' Tuchunka; so long as they remain there, the one in one thousand viable birth rate the genophage inflicts on them is simply unsustainable.
** Basically, it's like rabbits and the kakapo. On Tuchunka, Krogan were like rabbits--explosive breeders, but there are enough hazards and predators on the planet that they ''need'' those birthrates to survive as a species. And when the Krogan were exported to other, less hostile environments, they thrived to the point of being an invasive, destructive species, like rabbits brought to Australia. The Genophage reduces their breeding, but not the number of predators--turning their situation like that of the kakapo, a flightless parrot which was brought nearly to extinction because its own breeding habits kept the population low ''because'' they had no predators in their natural habitat.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Doctor Eva's biotic immunity]]
* So is there some kind of an in-universe explanation for why Dr. Eva is inexplicably immune to biotics? Even if they didn't want you to be able to take her down during the chase scene, why was the immunity kept up while she's charging at you? I tried warping her three times before I realized they expected me to use a ''gun''. [[DoesNotLikeGuns Commander Shepard doesn't use guns!]]
** Shields would prevent biotics from harming her during the chase. Warp has a minimal effect on the kinds of things that charge you, as well; presumably her armor is strong enough to shrug off biotics until you've shot her enough times. Remember that in ME, applying gun to the problem is often the quickest way to deal with the problem, regardless of your specialization.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Shepard's obsession with Earth]]
* Given that there is a 2/3 chance that Shepard either grew up on an entirely different world or on a series of spaceships, why is Shepard acting like it's his personal homeworld that's under assault? Sure, it's important to humanity as a whole and it has a lot of people on it, but Shepard's dialogue clearly implies that he thinks of Earth as home, even if he really shouldn't.
** Because it's the heart of the Alliance and humanity's homeworld, and the planet s/he's sworn to protect as an Alliance soldier, and on top of that the home of the vast majority of the human species. It might not be his/her actual homeworld, but s/he's clearly grown up believing it is his/her spiritual home. Just because s/he wasn't born there can't mean that s/he doesn't greatly value it.
** Asking why Spacer/Colonist Shepard cares about Earth, is the same as asking why the Quarian's want Rannoch back so badly? Judging by that logic, why care about Rannoch when for the last 300 years they've been living on the Migrant Fleet? The reason is obvious! '''Because it's home!''' Earth is the birthplace of the entire Human race and where Human civilisation first began! It's incredibly important to Humanity as a whole and worth fighting to protect?!
[[/folder]]

[[folder: What about OrganicTechnology?]]Organic Technology?]]






21st Apr '18 10:52:02 AM SoullessRaptor
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*** Two points on that regard. First, even non-combat roles would have to go through basic training, and would have basic combat drilled into them ad infinitum. Second, it'd serve to reinforce the Turian's "Needs of the many" mentality, so it's possible he would have acted because he realized that his death in exchange for Leng's would have helped the galaxy.
5th Apr '18 9:03:54 AM Toadofsteel
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** The Migrant Fleet's status as part of the Citadel sits in a gray area. They frequently pass through Citadel territory and do deal with the Citadel, i.e. when they were trying to claim a particular planet in Citadel space for a colony. So they apparently ''do'' fall under Citadel jurisdiction, at least while in Citadel territory, and are bound by their restrictions, including Firaxen.

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** The Migrant Fleet's status as part of the Citadel sits in a gray area. They frequently pass through Citadel territory and do deal with the Citadel, i.e. when they were trying to claim a particular planet in Citadel space for a colony. So they apparently ''do'' fall under Citadel jurisdiction, at least while in Citadel territory, and are bound by their restrictions, including Firaxen.Farixen.


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** Ship class appears to be determined by primary weapon caliber moreso than ship size. Humans created carriers as a form of LoopholeAbuse, physically those ships would be dreadnoughts if they had the guns to match. Another example is the Normandy: both versions of the ship are classified as frigates despite the second being twice the size. Likewise, while the liveships are probably the ''size'' of dreadnoughts, they aren't actually classified as such until they are refitted with dreadnought-level weaponry in advance of their attempt to retake Rannoch, by which point most races are too busy dealing with the Reapers to worry about the treaty.
31st Jan '18 8:08:25 AM Cryoclaste
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** It's more of a development issue. Instead of creating separate poses for each individual gun, it's a lot easier to create five-six different poses and call it a day (though I think that SMG and pistol share the same pose). This is more of a problem to ThirdPersonShooters as the character model is in full view (GearsOfWar avoids this problem as it has a much smaller weapon selection compared to the one Mass Effect provides). FirstPersonShooters have a less of a problem as the "arms" of your character can be part of the gun model instead of being a wholly separate model.

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** It's more of a development issue. Instead of creating separate poses for each individual gun, it's a lot easier to create five-six different poses and call it a day (though I think that SMG and pistol share the same pose). This is more of a problem to ThirdPersonShooters as the character model is in full view (GearsOfWar (VideoGame/GearsOfWar avoids this problem as it has a much smaller weapon selection compared to the one Mass Effect provides). FirstPersonShooters have a less of a problem as the "arms" of your character can be part of the gun model instead of being a wholly separate model.
1st Jan '18 12:17:18 PM fireblast
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** They're not indoctrinated. They're enthralled by Leviathan. There's more than one way to control minds in this setting (see also: the thorian). Reaper indoctrination is permanent and eventually turns the victims into gibbering wrecks, but these people are fine once the enthrallment sphere is destroyed.
31st Dec '17 2:44:13 PM fireblast
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** Likely either a one-in-a-million design flaw, or the Codex's definition of "immediately" doesn't equate to "instantly". On the note of Brutes though, their anatomy and articulation don't look anything like a krogan's. Hell, it looks more like a Yahg's. Even the feet resemble them. What's up with that?
** It also resembles Turian feet. I think Brutes are not just mutated Krogans with Turian heads, but a complete mix-and-match of the two, with the end result resembling neither.

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** Likely either a one-in-a-million design flaw, or the Codex's definition of "immediately" doesn't equate to "instantly". On the note of Brutes though, their anatomy and articulation don't look anything like a krogan's. Hell, it looks more like a Yahg's.yahg's. Even the feet resemble them. What's up with that?
** It also resembles Turian turian feet. I think Brutes are not just mutated Krogans krogans with Turian turian heads, but a complete mix-and-match of the two, with the end result resembling neither.neither.
*** Look at [[https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/masseffect/images/9/90/ME3_Brute.png/revision/latest?cb=20120320023753 this]] image of a Brute, from the Mass Effect wiki. It's hard to see in-game, when they're moving around and trying to kill you, but Brute feet are entirely cybernetic, and their arms are mostly or entirely cybernetic. Note that the krogan hump is also removed.
2nd Sep '17 9:01:31 AM HalcyonDayz
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* This brings up a point that bugged me since the whole "father" versus "mother" point Aethyta raised in ME3: how do Omnitools translate the words "male" and "female" and associated terms (boy and girl, man and woman) into the Asari language? Or do they just translate the words into the common trade language?

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* This brings up a point that bugged me since the whole "father" versus "mother" point Aethyta raised in ME3: ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'': how do Omnitools translate the words "male" and "female" and associated terms (boy and girl, man and woman) into the Asari language? Or do they just translate the words into the common trade language?



** And yet, if you sleep with Kaidan in ''VideoGame/MassEffect1'' and get involved with someone else in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'', he will accuse you of cheating in ME3 -- despite what ''appears'', to this troper, to be a ''very nasty'' breakup initiated by ''him'' in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2''. Liara also gets pretty upset if you cheat on her; if you leave her for someone else, she'll go out of her way to humiliate them in front of you. (E.g., bringing up Tali's Nerve Stim Pro install history during a mission where you're both present.) Not sure about Ashley, but I don't think you're meant to consider these romances as "short term things" in general.

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** And yet, if you sleep with Kaidan in ''VideoGame/MassEffect1'' and get involved with someone else in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'', he will accuse you of cheating in ME3 ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'' -- despite what ''appears'', to this troper, to be a ''very nasty'' breakup initiated by ''him'' in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2''. Liara also gets pretty upset if you cheat on her; if you leave her for someone else, she'll go out of her way to humiliate them in front of you. (E.g., bringing up Tali's Nerve Stim Pro install history during a mission where you're both present.) Not sure about Ashley, but I don't think you're meant to consider these romances as "short term things" in general.



** Something that bothered me about the Jacob Romance when I did it for the first time in hopes of hearing him get chewed out in ME3 was some of his lines in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2''.

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** Something that bothered me about the Jacob Romance when I did it for the first time in hopes of hearing him get chewed out in ME3 ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'' was some of his lines in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2''.



** Miranda then explains they need a tech to do that part. But if Jacob's words are considered in his mind, him and probably the rest of the crew were not coming back from the mission. So have sex with Shepard, come to terms with the fact you'll never have a wife and a kid and a house with a picket fence and go complete your mission. You can almost imagine him picturing his funeral and thinking about what might be said as he fights off collectors. But then comes the hitch in his plan. He survives. He survives the impossible. Now for the rest of the game we can consider Jacob to be riding on the "I can't believe i'm alive" cloud and not really thinking about the fact Shepard is his girlfriend. Cut to the Normandy being drydocked and Shepard being relieved of duty. Jacob goes to think about things on a beach. He starts picturing scenarios. Shepard being locked up forever, Shepard going off to fight the Reapers, Perhaps he even imagines Shepard actually saving the galaxy. But then comes the hard truth of it. Even if Shepard destroys the Reapers Shepard's not going to quit. Regardless of how you play your Shepard just start up ME3 and play right till you get the first dialogue choice. Now imagine that's day to day life. Jacob has no idea what Shepard's going to have to do when the reapers come and the last time he saw her she was being a flirty minx. He's completely unaware she's going to see children die, worlds burn, and friends fall. If Jacob did have a psychic vision of all those events he could hypothesize Shepard might be so weary of death she'd settle down. But Shepard killed Sovereign then let the alliance send her to hunt Geth despite Shepard, Anderson, and Hackett all knowing the Reapers were the real threat. So to Jacob, Shepard is alliance through and through. The best he can hope for is that she'd be willing to take enough time to actually give birth to their child before handing it off to Jacob and making him a stay at home dad while Shepard does more tours. Brynn on the other hand who he meets when he's muddled up is not like shepard. She is more then happy to let Jacob play hero and she'll raise the baby. After all being a scientist she could probably get a lab at home to work from to she could dual duties. Meanwhile if Shepard took her baby with her on adventures... Well we all saw what happened to the first normandy. It makes Brynn the clear favorite in Jacob's eyes. It also doesn't help if Shepard asks about Jacob and Brynn's relationship and then after having all the info choosing to try and seduce him when Brynns in the next room if you chose that option. The real problem is Brynn has absolutely no sympathy for Shepard's side of the story and comes off cold. And with the exception of the Slap in the Citadel DLC it's almost entirely identical to a nonromanced shepard. You can be as cold to Brynn as she is to you and she'll still "save" you from cerberus, still say that she's glad you're on their side, and will still want to name the baby Shepard. The very idea Brynn would suggest naming their child after Jacob's Ex is functionally ridiculous. Add to it how the closest thing you get to anyone sympathizing with Shepard is Joker's post mission comment if you talk to him that he already doesn't like Brynn on Shepard's behalf despite Shepard insisting she's fine about the turn of events. It makes the entire arc look like the Devs just didn't care enough to bother with Jacob any more then they absolutely had to.

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** Miranda then explains they need a tech to do that part. But if Jacob's words are considered in his mind, him and probably the rest of the crew were not coming back from the mission. So have sex with Shepard, come to terms with the fact you'll never have a wife and a kid and a house with a picket fence and go complete your mission. You can almost imagine him picturing his funeral and thinking about what might be said as he fights off collectors. But then comes the hitch in his plan. He survives. He survives the impossible. Now for the rest of the game we can consider Jacob to be riding on the "I can't believe i'm alive" cloud and not really thinking about the fact Shepard is his girlfriend. Cut to the Normandy being drydocked and Shepard being relieved of duty. Jacob goes to think about things on a beach. He starts picturing scenarios. Shepard being locked up forever, Shepard going off to fight the Reapers, Perhaps he even imagines Shepard actually saving the galaxy. But then comes the hard truth of it. Even if Shepard destroys the Reapers Shepard's not going to quit. Regardless of how you play your Shepard just start up ME3 ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'' and play right till you get the first dialogue choice. Now imagine that's day to day life. Jacob has no idea what Shepard's going to have to do when the reapers come and the last time he saw her she was being a flirty minx. He's completely unaware she's going to see children die, worlds burn, and friends fall. If Jacob did have a psychic vision of all those events he could hypothesize Shepard might be so weary of death she'd settle down. But Shepard killed Sovereign then let the alliance send her to hunt Geth despite Shepard, Anderson, and Hackett all knowing the Reapers were the real threat. So to Jacob, Shepard is alliance through and through. The best he can hope for is that she'd be willing to take enough time to actually give birth to their child before handing it off to Jacob and making him a stay at home dad while Shepard does more tours. Brynn on the other hand who he meets when he's muddled up is not like shepard. She is more then happy to let Jacob play hero and she'll raise the baby. After all being a scientist she could probably get a lab at home to work from to she could dual duties. Meanwhile if Shepard took her baby with her on adventures... Well we all saw what happened to the first normandy. It makes Brynn the clear favorite in Jacob's eyes. It also doesn't help if Shepard asks about Jacob and Brynn's relationship and then after having all the info choosing to try and seduce him when Brynns in the next room if you chose that option. The real problem is Brynn has absolutely no sympathy for Shepard's side of the story and comes off cold. And with the exception of the Slap in the Citadel DLC it's almost entirely identical to a nonromanced shepard. You can be as cold to Brynn as she is to you and she'll still "save" you from cerberus, still say that she's glad you're on their side, and will still want to name the baby Shepard. The very idea Brynn would suggest naming their child after Jacob's Ex is functionally ridiculous. Add to it how the closest thing you get to anyone sympathizing with Shepard is Joker's post mission comment if you talk to him that he already doesn't like Brynn on Shepard's behalf despite Shepard insisting she's fine about the turn of events. It makes the entire arc look like the Devs just didn't care enough to bother with Jacob any more then they absolutely had to.



** You're just assuming Jack won't stay faithful to the one person she trusts and who hasn't proven he's just interested in sex but wants a real relationship. And maybe she would. But we don't ever find out she did and she certainly didn't enter into a committed and monogamous relationship with someone else like Jacob did. The first game has one unique heterosexual love interest for both genders and Liara for both giving both genders two choices. The second game gives each gender three unique heterosexual love interests as well as three (or, well, two as yo can't have Samara and Morinth as options at the same time) quasi-LIs who don't get you the achievement for both genders. At this point, I'm wondering why all the bi options are women. In the third game, there are five LIs (who, for the most part, carry over from previous games) for men, three for women, and four four either with Kaidan being the one male LI who could be for both genders. In the Citadel DLC there's Javik and Vega for female Shepard and Samara for either. But that's just the DLC. And if you just started playing with ME3, as a female Shepard your only heterosexual LI is Kaidan since Garrus and Thane have to be romanced in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'' and let's not talk about Jacob. Female Shepard has several homosexual options they can choose from. Similarly, the only homosexual option male Shepard seems to have is Cortez while he has plenty of heterosexual options. And that's not a case of one being lesser than the others but it does mean that if you want to date someone of a certain gender you either get fortunate and have multiple options or you're stuck with one you'd better hope you like if you want any action at all. And whatever you want to call it, it is a problem.

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** You're just assuming Jack won't stay faithful to the one person she trusts and who hasn't proven he's just interested in sex but wants a real relationship. And maybe she would. But we don't ever find out she did and she certainly didn't enter into a committed and monogamous relationship with someone else like Jacob did. The first game has one unique heterosexual love interest for both genders and Liara for both giving both genders two choices. The second game gives each gender three unique heterosexual love interests as well as three (or, well, two as yo can't have Samara and Morinth as options at the same time) quasi-LIs who don't get you the achievement for both genders. At this point, I'm wondering why all the bi options are women. In the third game, there are five LIs (who, for the most part, carry over from previous games) for men, three for women, and four four either with Kaidan being the one male LI who could be for both genders. In the Citadel DLC there's Javik and Vega for female Shepard and Samara for either. But that's just the DLC. And if you just started playing with ME3, ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'', as a female Shepard your only heterosexual LI is Kaidan since Garrus and Thane have to be romanced in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'' and let's not talk about Jacob. Female Shepard has several homosexual options they can choose from. Similarly, the only homosexual option male Shepard seems to have is Cortez while he has plenty of heterosexual options. And that's not a case of one being lesser than the others but it does mean that if you want to date someone of a certain gender you either get fortunate and have multiple options or you're stuck with one you'd better hope you like if you want any action at all. And whatever you want to call it, it is a problem.



** The Reapers have access to all the knowledge of every race they harvest (or at least the collective knowledge of the harvested individuals - sufficient for comprehensive knowledge of culture and technology if not every dirty little secret). This is strongly suggested in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'' and confirmed in ME3 EC. Even if you assume that the leviathans Apex species initial technological superiority is not enough to maintain a trump-level edge - even with the Reapers explicitly controlling the length of every subsequent cycles technological development prior to harvesting - any clever ideas, novel technological approaches, etc are absorbed by the Reapers as they go. Nothing says they don't do a quick upgrade as they cool down from each harvest, finish making new Reapers etc - if one is called for. The initial cycles may have been shorter or more problematic specifically due to unexpected organic brilliance but by now they have it down to a science, they've accounted for every alternate technology, clever new approach, etc long since. They've been doing this for a ''billion'' years.

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** The Reapers have access to all the knowledge of every race they harvest (or at least the collective knowledge of the harvested individuals - sufficient for comprehensive knowledge of culture and technology if not every dirty little secret). This is strongly suggested in ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'' and confirmed in ME3 ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'' EC. Even if you assume that the leviathans Apex species initial technological superiority is not enough to maintain a trump-level edge - even with the Reapers explicitly controlling the length of every subsequent cycles technological development prior to harvesting - any clever ideas, novel technological approaches, etc are absorbed by the Reapers as they go. Nothing says they don't do a quick upgrade as they cool down from each harvest, finish making new Reapers etc - if one is called for. The initial cycles may have been shorter or more problematic specifically due to unexpected organic brilliance but by now they have it down to a science, they've accounted for every alternate technology, clever new approach, etc long since. They've been doing this for a ''billion'' years.



* Possibly because of the magnitude of the crime, and that no one was really sure how to react or how to deliver an appropriate punishment. Remember, Shepard blew up a relay, which in turn devastated an entire solar system and killed 300.000 batarians. While the Alliance had started coming over to Shepard's conclusion of the Reaper threat at that point, (thanks to Anderson and Hackett, (as far as we know)), the other Council/non-Council races were still on the fence or denying it outright. It is outright stated during the Rachni/Grunt mission in ME3 that it was to keep the batarians placated while the Alliance was preparing for the Reapers. The relay explosion is incomparable to anything else that has happened during the games up to that point, and the most devastating since the Protheans sent a star into a supernova. This is of course discounting the Reapers actions during the cycles.

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* Possibly because of the magnitude of the crime, and that no one was really sure how to react or how to deliver an appropriate punishment. Remember, Shepard blew up a relay, which in turn devastated an entire solar system and killed 300.000 batarians. While the Alliance had started coming over to Shepard's conclusion of the Reaper threat at that point, (thanks to Anderson and Hackett, (as far as we know)), the other Council/non-Council races were still on the fence or denying it outright. It is outright stated during the Rachni/Grunt mission in ME3 ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'' that it was to keep the batarians placated while the Alliance was preparing for the Reapers. The relay explosion is incomparable to anything else that has happened during the games up to that point, and the most devastating since the Protheans sent a star into a supernova. This is of course discounting the Reapers actions during the cycles.
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