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[[* Folder:Averting The Future]]
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[[* Folder:Averting The Future]]
* Kinda an old movie by now, but didn't Joe have so many oppertunities to avert the future? He could've sworn off women entirely so he'd have no dead wife. Or avoided going to China so he couldn't possibly meet her. Or just decided not to try to kill the Rainmaker when he becomes Old Joe, so there's no motivation on his part.
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* Kinda an old movie by now, but didn't Joe have so many oppertunities to avert the future? He could've sworn off women entirely so he'd have no dead wife. Or avoided going to China so he couldn't possibly meet her. Or just decided not to try to kill the Rainmaker when he becomes Old Joe, so there's no motivation on his part.
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** Or she just heard about it during her time in the city.
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** Because Joe has seen what he will become in the future - someone willing to murder innocent children just to secure his own happiness. From his POV, he feels the world is better off without him. He was banking on getting out of the Looper business and starting a new life - but he's just got confirmation that doesn't happen. So rather than facing a miserable future, he decides to kill himself and at least secure a future for Sara and Cid.
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** And it should be noted that it's not illegal to willingly go missing - as long as there's no evidence of fraud or foul play. So if someone disappears and there's no trace of a body, it can be assumed that they've just willingly decided to go missing.
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** As to why he offers it to the hooker - it's clear he's feeling guilty about handing Seth over. This is clearly spelled out in the scene where he looks through his stash of silver and finds some of Seth's blood on it. This serves to foreshadow that he does have a sense of decency, and offering the hooker some of the silver is an attempt to atone for what he's done. Giving up the silver he fucked Seth over for seems like a fair punishment for his crime.
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** The only reason Young!Joe knew to go to Sara's farm was because Old!Joe's map tore with the necessary on it. He doesn't know where the other children are. And he also thought that he could still make things right with Abe by killing his future self. So he knows Old!Joe will come to Sara's eventually, and hopes to catch him.
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** It's said that the Rainmaker saw his own mother get killed by a Looper and thus started his crusade against them. He's said to be a OneManArmy, and once Joe sees that he's got really strong telekinetic powers that's all but confirmed.
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** Film Noir usually involves an AntiHero protagonist or else someone who slowly gets dragged down into the criminal underworld in some way. Endings are bittersweet at best and there's usually a point of no return for the protagonist.
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'''BE WARY OF SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT.''' '''''THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING.'''''
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[[foldercontrol]]
[[folder:Opening the loop]]
[[folder:Opening the loop]]
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[[folder:To get away with murder in the future]]
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[[folder:Complications with Looping]]
[[folder:Complications with Looping]]
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[[/folder]]
[[folder:Closing Joe's Loop and the Rainmaker]]
[[folder:Closing Joe's Loop and the Rainmaker]]
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[[folder:Are Loopers really necessary?]]
[[folder:Are Loopers really necessary?]]
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[[folder:Sara's knowledge of Loopers]]
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[[folder:More on Closing the Loops]]
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[[folder:A Looper preventing his own fate]]
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[[folder:Open-ended Loops]]
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[[folder:Premature death for a Looper]]
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[[folder:Time police]]
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** It's implied that there's only one (or a very limited number) time machine and it's controlled by the bad guys. If the legitimate authorities ever got the time machine, they would destroy it. Then they would jail or kill (or something) all of the people involved in the extremely illegal activity. Using it themselves would be counterproductive and reckless. Besides, it's one way time travel and the world from thirty years ago sucked- who'd be willing to go back?
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** It's implied that there's only one (or a very limited number) number of) time machine machine(s) and it's controlled by the bad guys. If the legitimate authorities ever got the time machine, they would destroy it. Then they would jail or kill (or something) all of the people involved in the extremely illegal activity. Using it themselves would be counterproductive and reckless. Besides, it's one way time travel and the world from thirty years ago sucked- who'd be willing to go back?
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* How is this considered a Sci-Fi Noir? There's barley any Noir elements in the film and the narration ends after the first little while.
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[[folder:Movie genre]]
* How is this considered a Sci-Fi Noir? There's
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[[folder:Mob guns are just better]]
[[folder:Mob guns are just better]]
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[[folder:Signaling to your past self]]
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[[folder:Tracking a Looper]]
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[[folder:Why did the Rainmaker kill Jesse?]]
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[[folder:Past!Joe's suicide]]
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[[folder:Why send the Loopers back 30 years?]]
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[[folder:Abe's future]]
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[[folder:Seth and the Rainmaker]]
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[[folder:The doctor]]
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[[folder:Seth's signal]]
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[[folder:Abe's need for Joe's silver]]
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[[folder:The 2044 authorities]]
[[folder:The 2044 authorities]]
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[[folder:Young Joe and Sarah's inactivity]]
[[folder:Young Joe and Sarah's inactivity]]
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* Is Cid really [[spoiler: the Rainmaker]]? I mean, the guy who gave Future!Joe the code might have been wrong. You can't take any information for granted. And as for [[spoiler: Future!Joe's disappearance after Present!Joe kills himself]], isn't it fundamentally because his past self is [[spoiler: dead rather than having anything to do the Rainmaker's (non-)existence]]? After all, [[MindScrew the story]] [[UpToEleven would've been more complicated]] had the [[spoiler: Rainmaker been Cid. If s/he really is Cid, then [[TimeCrash Future!Loopers wouldn't have been sent back, Present!Joe wouldn't have met Future!Joe, and all this wouldn't have happened]]. Then Cid wouldn't have met both Joes and probably lived as normally as possible, resulting in him not becoming evil,]] which would make Future!Joe's return to the present timeline improbable.
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[[folder:Is Cid really
* I mean, the guy who gave Future!Joe the code might have been wrong. You can't take any information for granted. And as for [[spoiler: Future!Joe's disappearance after Present!Joe kills himself]], isn't it fundamentally because his past self is [[spoiler: dead rather than having anything to do the Rainmaker's (non-)existence]]? After all, [[MindScrew the story]] [[UpToEleven would've been more complicated]] had the [[spoiler: Rainmaker been Cid. If s/he really is Cid, then [[TimeCrash Future!Loopers wouldn't have been sent back, Present!Joe wouldn't have met Future!Joe, and all this wouldn't have happened]]. Then Cid wouldn't have met both Joes and probably lived as normally as possible, resulting in him not becoming evil,]] which would make Future!Joe's return to the present timeline improbable.
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[[folder:Why not shoot his own hands off?]]
[[folder:Why not shoot his own hands off?]]
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[[folder:The unsolvable paradox]]
[[folder:The unsolvable paradox]]
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[[folder:Old Joe's wife]]
[[folder:Old Joe's wife]]
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[[folder:Even More on Joe's Loop]]
[[folder:Even More on Joe's Loop]]
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[[folder:Loopers aren't the most forward-thinking sorts]]
[[folder:Loopers aren't the most forward-thinking sorts]]
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[[folder:Joe's headaches]]
[[folder:Joe's headaches]]
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[[folder:Why do they have to close the loops?]]
[[folder:Why do they have to close the loops?]]
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** I understand the need to kill the loopers, but why have them kill themselves, and why tell them about it? You could just send them to any old looper, like the rest of the victims. Less incentive to go rogue that way. You could even still have a gold payout attached to a looper be their last hit, just have it be a ''different looper'' than the one you're sending them to.
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** I understand the need to kill the loopers, but why have them kill themselves, and why tell them about it? You could just send them to any old looper, like the rest of the victims. Less incentive to go rogue that way. You could even still have a gold payout attached to a looper be their last hit, just have it be a ''different looper'' than the one you're sending them to.to.
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** I think I may have figured this one out. I've spent the past hour thinking about it, so I hope so..... If Young!Joe kills himself, he negates everything that Old!Joe might do, meaning that the Rainmaker never comes into existence. If the Rainmaker never comes into existence, then Old!Joe wouldn't have been sent back and thus, Young!Joe would have just carried on with his life being a Looper. He would have grown old, gotten married, and died normally (maybe). Cid's mother also wouldn't be killed by Old!Joe because Old!Joe wouldn't be sent back, so he never grows up evil, and the lives of Cid and the Loopers are completely separate. Am I missing something?
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** I think I may have figured this one out. I've spent the past hour thinking about it, so I hope so..... [[spoiler: If Young!Joe kills himself, he negates everything that Old!Joe might do, meaning that the Rainmaker never comes into existence. If the Rainmaker never comes into existence, then Old!Joe wouldn't have been sent back and thus, Young!Joe would have just carried on with his life being a Looper. He would have grown old, gotten married, and died normally (maybe). Cid's mother also wouldn't be killed by Old!Joe because Old!Joe wouldn't be sent back, so he never grows up evil, and the lives of Cid and the Loopers are completely separate. ]] Am I missing something?
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** One way to interpret it is that we are seeing the formation of a StableTimeLoop. Most likely the Rainmaker came to be through similar events happening elsewhere, but the actions of Old!Joe force it into a new configuration that would continue as a loop into all possible futures if Young!Joe didn't put a stop to it. Similar to Film/TheTerminator, John Conner probably had a different father before the [[StableTimeLoop Skynet kicked things off]].
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*** Think about it both ways. Instead of it being a 30 year retirement after you close your loop, your loop gets closed because in 30 years time, you did something to piss off the Syndicate. Remember, Young Joe notices a sharp increase in Closed Loops, because 30 years in the future the Rainmaker has taken over and is rounding all the Loopers up to be killed. A lot of Loopers may not even get 30 years, but the Syndicate lies to make their 'retirement' sound like a fair deal. Particularly good Loopers like Joe might only get their fair 30 years because the Syndicate never has a reason to murder them, but a percieved paradox demands they must be sent back regardless.
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*** Think about it both ways. Instead of it being a 30 year retirement after you close your loop, your loop gets closed because in 30 years time, you did something to piss off the Syndicate. Remember, Young Joe notices a sharp increase in Closed Loops, because 30 years in the future the Rainmaker has taken over and is rounding all the Loopers up to be killed. A lot of Loopers may not even get 30 years, but the Syndicate lies to make their 'retirement' sound like a fair deal. Particularly good Loopers like Joe might only get their fair 30 years because the Syndicate never has a reason to murder them, but a percieved paradox demands they must be sent back regardless.regardless.
** I understand the need to kill the loopers, but why have them kill themselves, and why tell them about it? You could just send them to any old looper, like the rest of the victims. Less incentive to go rogue that way. You could even still have a gold payout attached to a looper be their last hit, just have it be a ''different looper'' than the one you're sending them to.
** I understand the need to kill the loopers, but why have them kill themselves, and why tell them about it? You could just send them to any old looper, like the rest of the victims. Less incentive to go rogue that way. You could even still have a gold payout attached to a looper be their last hit, just have it be a ''different looper'' than the one you're sending them to.
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** Someone in fridge proposed this: Older!Joe becomes a looper and one day kills his future self, collects his gold, and goes to FRANCE like he intended, creating a stable time loop. Then Seth botches the closing of his own loop, and so the scene where Abe has Joe in his office and convinces him to go to China instead happens. Old!Joe kills Older!Joe and goes to China, meets his wife, and finds a reason to fight. Old!Joe struggles and goes back in time, knocking out Young!Joe and starting the real plot of the movie.
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** Could be seen as cleaning up loose ends. Could be vengeance. Could just be that they decided it was the best way to accomplish both their money/precious metal laundering goals and run their murder operations... cleaning up old murderers means it's less likely the guy's ever caught by the cops and traced to them.
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** Could be seen as cleaning up loose ends. Could be vengeance. Could just be that they decided it was the best way to accomplish both their money/precious metal laundering goals and run their murder operations... cleaning up old murderers means it's less likely the guy's ever caught by the cops and traced to them.them.
*** Think about it both ways. Instead of it being a 30 year retirement after you close your loop, your loop gets closed because in 30 years time, you did something to piss off the Syndicate. Remember, Young Joe notices a sharp increase in Closed Loops, because 30 years in the future the Rainmaker has taken over and is rounding all the Loopers up to be killed. A lot of Loopers may not even get 30 years, but the Syndicate lies to make their 'retirement' sound like a fair deal. Particularly good Loopers like Joe might only get their fair 30 years because the Syndicate never has a reason to murder them, but a percieved paradox demands they must be sent back regardless.
*** Think about it both ways. Instead of it being a 30 year retirement after you close your loop, your loop gets closed because in 30 years time, you did something to piss off the Syndicate. Remember, Young Joe notices a sharp increase in Closed Loops, because 30 years in the future the Rainmaker has taken over and is rounding all the Loopers up to be killed. A lot of Loopers may not even get 30 years, but the Syndicate lies to make their 'retirement' sound like a fair deal. Particularly good Loopers like Joe might only get their fair 30 years because the Syndicate never has a reason to murder them, but a percieved paradox demands they must be sent back regardless.
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*** The movie pretty much confirms this since Old Joe arrives 'late' as a result of his struggle with the Syndicate goons in the future. Getting into some slightly harder sci-fi but time travel is ''theoretically'' possibly by manipulating space-time with gravitational forces. A time machine that manipulates space-time by a precise, set amount each time (30 years time and to a specific location) would be less complex than one that is capable of variable space-time manipulation.
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*** Do you remember the last time somebody startled you as a practical joke or even just by accident, and for a moment you felt incredibly angry at that person? Give that to a child with an established rotten temper and psychic murder powers.
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** It might simply be that Blunderbusses are seen as being inferior to ''any'' weapon a Gat Man has access to. The other thing is Kid Blue is a pretty good example that the Gat Men aren't really ''that'' much better than the Loopers. Most of them are still only being trusted with a six-shooter, but because it's still better than what the Loopers get, they talk the weapon up to mythical levels, and milk it for all it's worth.
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*** Being bound, gagged and headbagged also severely limits your options for communication. In addition to that, any targets that know about the Loopers and what's about to happen to them may try and fake a signal. The Syndicate probably circulate stories of Loopers tricked into thinking they're closing their loop, only to be killed by their target because there's no paradox stopping them from doing so.
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* What's being overlooked is that a causal paradox goes both ways. As a Troper mentioned, if the Rainmaker controls most of the world at this point, then maybe his mooks ''don't'' bother sending people back to be murdered, only Loopers, because failing to do so will change the past. The Looper murders are all from a point in time where the Syndicates aren't confident enough in their power to openly murder people.
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** In response to the original post: The movie is maddeningly inconsistent on how actions affect the future and present. Seth can get his feet cut off, but the world has no problem with assuming Future!Seth had feet up until the instant Past!Seth has his cut off. This make no temporal sense. Either he still has his feet because he isn't the same Seth, or he doesn't have them because they were cut off 30 years ago. Since Cid's jaw wound didn't instantly heal when Joe (both of them) died, we can assume that the same thing is going on. This neatly avoid all paradoxes. If Old!Joe had killed Cid, Cid would have been dead, and Old!Joe would either have been stuck in his past, or disappeared. Everyone else would proceed as if Cid had died any other way.
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** Unlikely. Probably they just needed the doctor to make sure he lives through the ordeal (if this can be called a live). Nope, the scene is there to establish that no matter what awaits you in the future, you do NOT want to f*ck with Abe in the present.
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*** That's pretty much how it seems. There is no butterfly at work, but time "tries" to redirect itself into its original stream. This would explain why the very scenario that plays out in the future (Cid witnessing his mother being killed, getting shot in the jaw, and developing a grudge against loopers) is actually produced by Old!Joe who couldn't have done it in the original timeline, where probably another looper was to be blamed. And this would explain why Abe is able to manage the present for the future even though his very presence would produce a paradox in the first place: He is pretty savvy when it comes to how far he can mess with the timeline without bringing everything down (like prefering to mutilate failed loopers and saving them as vegetables for 30 years instead over killing them outright).
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** Don't forget that Old!Joe explicitly mentioned that the Rainmaker witnessed his mother being killed and had an iron jaw, and it's heavily hinted that he "closes all the loops" (=kills all loopers) as an act of revenge. The final scene with Old!Joe, Sarah and Cid basically is a prelude to this development. So whatever happened in Old!Joe's timeline, it was very similar to what is happening at the end of the movie (probably some other looper did pretty much the same stuff as Old!Joe does, but his younger self was bright enough to leave town before the gatmen got to him).
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*** This actually makes most sense. After all, it's heavily hinted that the Rainmaker is some kind of semi-messianic crimelord who turns the future into a dystopia - so why should he bother about some additional killings somewhere in China? Besides, though Young!Joe sets up the story that in the future basically any murder can be tracked, this doesn't mean that no murders are comitted anymore - just that the vast majority of them are outsourced to the past.
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** He may not have been signaling his younger self at all. He may have just expected to die, and hummed a tune from his childhood to try to calm himself. When Young Seth didn't kill him, he just took his chances running, since (at that point), his memories didn't involve any torture. It's possible that Seth never closed his loop in any timeline, for that reason, and things just played out differently (Young Seth got away for a while, Old Seth got hit by a car and Abe just took his gold for screwing up, whatever).
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Changed line(s) 174 (click to see context) from:
* What is the point of closing the loop, in the first place? If the guy isn't working for you now, and hasn't been for 30 years, why does he have to be killed 30 years down the road. Was it all just a vengeance thing from the Rainmaker, or did it serve some other purpose to the mob bosses?
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* What is the point of closing the loop, in the first place? If the guy isn't working for you now, and hasn't been for 30 years, why does he have to be killed 30 years down the road. Was it all just a vengeance thing from the Rainmaker, or did it serve some other purpose to the mob bosses?bosses?
** Could be seen as cleaning up loose ends. Could be vengeance. Could just be that they decided it was the best way to accomplish both their money/precious metal laundering goals and run their murder operations... cleaning up old murderers means it's less likely the guy's ever caught by the cops and traced to them.
** Could be seen as cleaning up loose ends. Could be vengeance. Could just be that they decided it was the best way to accomplish both their money/precious metal laundering goals and run their murder operations... cleaning up old murderers means it's less likely the guy's ever caught by the cops and traced to them.
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** Already discussed further up, please read the headscratchers pages before adding new ones.
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** Old!Joe probably didn't know how to operate the time machine, so his only choice was to hop in and push the start button or wait for someone to show up looking what went wrong.
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Changed line(s) 171 (click to see context) from:
** We've no evidence any of that would have happened, and it depends on Young Joe somehow knowing for certain that it would happen.
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** We've no evidence any of that would have happened, and it depends on Young Joe somehow knowing for certain that it would happen.happen.
* What is the point of closing the loop, in the first place? If the guy isn't working for you now, and hasn't been for 30 years, why does he have to be killed 30 years down the road. Was it all just a vengeance thing from the Rainmaker, or did it serve some other purpose to the mob bosses?
* What is the point of closing the loop, in the first place? If the guy isn't working for you now, and hasn't been for 30 years, why does he have to be killed 30 years down the road. Was it all just a vengeance thing from the Rainmaker, or did it serve some other purpose to the mob bosses?
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Changed line(s) 170 (click to see context) from:
* The part when Young!Joe meets Sarah, and forsuing headaches makes Old!Joe remember her face kind of screams to me that at that particular moment the possibility that Young!Joe would instead fall in love with Sarah instead of Nameless Chinese Girl(and therefore lowering the chances that rainmaker comes into existence) is very possible. It most likely make a boring movie but Young!Joe was already on the love path as it was, so wouldn't it make more sense to spend more time with Cid and Sarah therefore increasing the chances that at the end the Old!Joe vanishes the reason he went to past technically doesn't exist anymore.
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* The part when Young!Joe meets Sarah, and forsuing headaches makes Old!Joe remember her face kind of screams to me that at that particular moment the possibility that Young!Joe would instead fall in love with Sarah instead of Nameless Chinese Girl(and therefore lowering the chances that rainmaker comes into existence) is very possible. It most likely make a boring movie but Young!Joe was already on the love path as it was, so wouldn't it make more sense to spend more time with Cid and Sarah therefore increasing the chances that at the end the Old!Joe vanishes the reason he went to past technically doesn't exist anymore.anymore.
** We've no evidence any of that would have happened, and it depends on Young Joe somehow knowing for certain that it would happen.
** We've no evidence any of that would have happened, and it depends on Young Joe somehow knowing for certain that it would happen.
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* The part when Young!Joe meets Sarah, and forsuing headaches makes Old!Joe remember her face kind of screams to me that at that particular moment the possibility that Young!Joe would instead fall in love with Sarah instead of Nameless Chinese Girl(and therefore lowering the chances that rainmaker comes into existence) is very possible. It most likely make a boring movie but Young!Joe was already on the love path as it was, so wouldn't it make more sense to spend more time with Cid and Sarah therefore increasing the chances that at the end the Old!Joe vanishes the reason he went to past technically doesn't exist anymore.
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'''BE WARY OF SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT.''' '''''THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING.'''''
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**** I thought the guy that accidentally shot her looked sort of like a grizzled older Kid Blue, so "just dumb" would be an entirely accurate assessment if so.
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*** Since the mob probably dabbles in a wide range of crimes, it's inevitable that they'll have to fight off some cops; perhaps they carry lethal weapons not to attack people, but defend themselves in a pinch. This also adds up when you consider [[spoiler:Old Joe's wife was killed for holding a gardening trowel,]] meaning it was [[ShootHimHeHasAWallet just a mook panicking.]]
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**** He does seem to be taken by surprise by what happens to his body. The Mob really ought to advertise this aspect of their program better, in order to prevent people from running.
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** Perhaps, usually, they realise that it is hopeless: that there is no realistic hope of escape and that they might as well just accept their fate. Also, you'll notice that Young Joe shoots the victim the very instant they appear, not even giving them a quarter of a second to signal. Probably wise.
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** And even if you can't control the location of the beam-in, the loopers can obviously predict it - so why not just build an incinerator AROUND the beam-in location?
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** Because the silver/gold market manipulation was a part of the mafia's operation. Getting rid of bodies is a bonus and also ensures the loyalty of the loopers. It is also possible that the time travel works similarly to a relaxed version of that of the terminator franchise, and a live human must always go along, being a one way journey that scrambles your brain some they ran out of volunteers and decided to kill two birds with one stone.
Changed line(s) 53,56 (click to see context) from:
** It's proof that they held up their end of the bargain and let them live a
full 30 years and were just not going to kill the young looper right after
the gig.
full 30 years and were just not going to kill the young looper right after
the gig.
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** It's proof that they held up their end of the bargain and let them live a
a full 30 years and were just not going to kill the young looper right after
after the gig.
