History Headscratchers / GUNDAM

[[folder:Is Zeon Gray or Black?]]

[[folder:Pacifist-like characters. Why are they hated?]]
* This is mainly towards Gundam in general and not any specific series. Why do people feel the need to hate on these characters? Do they forget that Gundam is a war show that has analogies to real life? Of course there'd be people who are like that. People keep going on about how the likes of recent Gundam protagonists stink because they "spew" idealism, but in the end, shouldn't that be what we as a people want? No war? Why feel the need to hate on something that deep down many wish were possible?
** It changes from example to example, but in general it's because characters holding to pacifist ideals come across as either hypocritical or delusional. Gundam Seed is probably the prime example (though hardly the only one); you can't lecture people about how fighting is wrong when you use the biggest god damn stick in the solar system to beat the message into their skulls. The other issue is that pacifism, as an ideology, is flawed. Just because you refuse to fight, it doesn't mean that your enemies will respect your choice, which is one of the major themes from Wing. Not to mention, there's also a sizeable part of the fandom that enjoys Gundam not for the political intrigue and philosophy, but for big ass robots blowing shit up. If the carnage is why you enjoy the show, characters preaching about how awful it is really kills your buzz.
** It's all about execution. When you're a pacifist is a war zone, things should be hard and there need to be reasons for trying at all to be feasible if it's not. For instance, Loran spends most of the series on ''Earth'' where disabled MS tend not to [[MadeOfExplodium explode easily]] and the pilots can survive longer because they won't run out of air, so it's not totally unrealistic, plus he's creative at using a hugely destructive MS for noncombat purposes. Banagher, on the other hand, screws up a ''lot'' and a lot of his time is spent figuring out how to use such a massively destructive Gundam directly against its designed purpose, he completely fails in trying to talk down an enemy pilot, and it takes until episode 5 for him to succeed. The problem with pilots like late-S2 Setsuna or Kio Asuno is that they get Gundams that make it massively easy to apply pacifistic ideals in pitched battle, use space sparkles toso their enemies feel pacifism, or (in Kio's case) they do blatantly ineffective things despite obvious evidence that it's not working and refusing to change tactics (i.e. yelling "LET'S UNDERSTAND FELLOW HUMAN" to pilots who are repeatedly telling him to hold still so they can shoot him down easier).
** Simply put, if you're a pacifist - YOU SHOULDN'T BE FIGHTING IN A WAR. Also, a pacifist has no right to preach to the people who are actually fighting and killing, and desperately trying to stay alive. It's especially grating if they're stopping THEIR OWN SIDE from killing the enemy. Notably, Amuro Ray and Tomino's protagonists in general NEVER protested the necessity of killing the enemy.
[[/folder]]

** Wow, we got our own little folder. Anyways, while Zeon is often a darker shade of gray, it is by no means black. The soldiers fighting for it are fighting for independence from the Earth. The ideals of Zeon center around the belief that mankind was always meant to leave the Earth, and that the colonies should be independent from Earth. Zeon is pretty damn ruthless in pursuing its goals, but so are the Feddies. Remember the hospital ship in the 08th MS Team? Not only did they shoot it down, they shot down the Gouf that fell out of it just to make sure they got everyone. In that same series, they were also trying to use the reactors of their own Mobile Suits to set off an 'accidental' nuclear explosion and level the Zeon base. To accomplish this, they planned on just having teams of GMs waltz into mine-infested tunnels. It's by no means a perfect grey and grey, but it's definately painted in shades of it.

** Simply put, if you're a pacifist - YOU SHOULDN'T BE FIGHTING IN A WAR. Also, a pacifist has no right to preach to the people who are actually fighting and killing, and desperately trying to stay alive. Amuro Ray, for instance, never had any issues with killing his enemies.

<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>

* One thing that I have really been finding annoying is Shiro Amada's AlphaStrike and how it failed. He's sliding down the tower he stuck his Gundam EZ8's backpack to and is shown firing in straight lines. However, when it cuts to his opponent, Norris Pacard's Gouf Custom, the bullets from his 100mm autocannon go off to the left of the suit, his 35mm vulcans got off to the right side and his 12.7 machine gun just kind of meander around the target, who's just standing there. I don't get it. After all, the 35mm and 12.7mm guns wouldn't have done much more than scratch the paint of a mobile suit, if that. I mean, if they really wanted to show how {{Badass}} Norris is, then he should have been shown blocking the 100mm rounds with the obvious shield he has and just tanking the weaker stuff.

* One thing that I have really been finding annoying is Shiro Amada's Alpha Strike and how it failed. He's sliding down the tower he stuck his Gundam EZ8's backpack to and is shown firing in straight lines. However, when it cuts to his opponent, Norris Pacard's Gouf Custom, the bullets from his 100mm autocannon go off to the left of the suit, his 35mm vulcans got off to the right side and his 12.7 machine gun just kind of meander around the target, who's just standing there. I don't get it. After all, the 35mm and 12.7mm guns wouldn't have done much more than scratch the paint of a mobile suit, if that. I mean, if they really wanted to show how Badass Norris is, then he should have been shown blocking the 100mm rounds with the obvious shield he has and just tanking the weaker stuff.

** Probably some form of DidNotDoTheResearch or TechnologyMarchesOn. Either that, or UC watts are several orders of magnitude more powerful than present-day watts. After all, look at the computers that they use in early UC works, they're probably twenty times bulkier than a 2010-era PC with likely half the processing power.

*** In VictoryGundam, there are bright orange safety belts that hold the pilot in place.

*** But people keep going on about how ''noble'' Zeon's goals are. If Zeon's goals are noble, then so are the goals of Quebecois separatists. And no, Operation British wasn't an act of desperation. The Solar Ray was an act of desperation. Operation British was always going to cap off Zeon's initial offensive. It just so happened that the casualties they took moving the colony into position were the straw that broke the camel's back, preventing them from doing more drops. And this whole argument? We never really left the original subject: In light of how pointless Zeon's endgame was, and the brutality used, on the battlefield and on the home front, in the attempt to reach it, and the holdouts who continued to carry out said brutality in the name of a dead cause, invalidates the UC's claim to all moral ambiguity, all the time.
* For those who found the argument too hard to follow, basically, it boils down to this: is the case of the Earth Federation vs. the Zeon a case of GreyAndGrayMorality, with the Feddies being ALighterShadeOfGray because they haven't resorted to ColonyDrop type attacks, which Zeon has done multiple times? Or is it a case of BlackAndWhiteMorality with the unusual step of having Zeon have many traits of an AntiVillain, especially due to the many otherwise decent Zeon loyalists [[SympatheticPOV who we get to see and empathize with in the series]]?[[/folder]]

** That's because Zeon has a weird approach to weapon designing : basically, they create a crapton of prototypes, send them on the battlefield and mass produce the ones getting actual results. In fact, that's how they noticed the awesomeness of mobile suits in the first place! What's more, they also have a tendency to create overly specialized mechs, which effectively means they need a lot of different models running around (the Gundam's [[TheMario Mario]] skillset was revolutionary for the time period).

[folder: Is Zeon Gray or Black?]

* For those who found the argument too hard to follow, basically, it boils down to this: is the case of the Earth Federation vs. the Zeon a case of GreyAndGrayMorality, with the Feddies being ALighterShadeOfGray because they haven't resorted to ColonyDrop type attacks, which Zeon has done multiple times? Or is it a case of BlackAndWhiteMorality with the unusual step of having Zeon have many traits of an AntiVillain, especially due to the many otherwise decent Zeon loyalists [[SympatheticPOV who we get to see and empathize with in the series]]?[/folder]

** FIGHTING SPIRIT!
*** Seriously.
*** Serious answer: There's a throwaway line in 0079 where a Zeon commander (M'quve) claims to have shipped off enough material from his mines to keep Zeon fighting for another decade. Furthermore, if Stardust Memory is to be believed a crapton of Zeon forces didn't acknowledge the surrender and fled to places like Axis or the Delaz Fleet. This troper's guess would be that
*** ... That?
* I'm sorry, but when one side in a war caps off its indiscriminate use of deadly neurotoxin by dropping a great big heavy thing on Earth, ''killing untold millions'', and their enemies don't do ''anything'' on that scale in retaliation, and for years afterwards holdouts of that side continue attempting to drop great big heavy things on Earth, and said side's rationale for its actions ''don't make any sense because they are not being oppressed in any meaningful sense''... When all those criteria are met, moral ambiguity has officially vanished. Come to think of it, is there a specific trope for when a work claims there is moral ambiguity in a situation where, if you really think about it, it's pretty black and white?
** Keep in mind that after 0083 there was pretty heavy oppression of the Space Colonies. Furthermore, the Titans (A Federation-affiliated group) did attempt a colony drop on Von Braun city. Now, the Federation has always been less evil than Zeon, but that's because Zeon is led almost entirely by comically evil dictator-types. For the 'spacenoids' (God, that's such a silly name...) the Zeon forces are seen as freedom fighters. They're seen as standing up for the rights of people in space. Sort of an American Revolution scenario, but with Space Nazis instead of Minutemen.
*** ... And since they are Nazis led by comically evil people, it's, if not black and white, a lot less morally ambiguous than the writers would lead us to believe. And yes, the Titans were evil sumbitches. There is no excusing that. But they were formed (by a power-hungry asshat, granted) as a ''response'' to Zeon holdouts ''killing untold millions by dropping another fucking colony on Earth.'' And the Federation ultimately turned on the Titans, remember? Also, I fail to see how, with the exception of the Titans, the Federation is oppressing the colonies in any meaningful sense. Comparing it to the American Revolution isn't going to activate my Patriotism Circuits and make me see grey where there really isn't any.
*** That wasn't an attempt to push any patriotism circuit, just comparing the scenario. The American colonists weren't being oppressed in the 'Evil Overlord' sense, they were taxed without representation and forced to sell their goods only to the British Empire. Similarly, the people of the colonies weren't allowed to form their own governments and had been forced to emigrate to the colonies. Naturally, there was resentment toward the Federation. However, the bad guys seized control of The Republic of Zeon, and formed a totalitarian dicatorship, using the ideals of the Republic to gain the loyalty of the people. You see, one of the founding philosophies of the Republic were that the people of Space should be independent from control of the Earth. When Degwin Zabi took control and shifted to a dictatorship, he believed the only way to achieve and maintain independence was for Zeon to fight the Federation. Before he took over, the Republic had been trying to negotiate for its independence, with the federation attempting to force them to return through economic pressure. Now, while the colony drop was by far the most destructive single attack in course of the war, both sides suffered horrific losses. The opening claimed both sides had lost half of their respective populations due to indiscriminate use of WMDs such as nuclear weapons and poison gas. The colony drop was an attempt to wipe out the Federation headquarters at Jaburo and end the war quickly, but the colony was diverted before it could hit, and landed in a civilian city. It's not quite grey and grey morality, but it is done in shades of grey. Once you get away from the original series, we get more and more instances of the Federation proving it can be just as bad as Zeon can. I think the 08th MS team does the best job of portraying each side as equal in greyscale ethics, with the Zeon occupation of that village when the Apsalus and the Federation shooting down a hospital ship. As for Operation Stardust and future Neo-Zeon movements, there seems to less and less justification for these, I'll give you that. As Zeon is continually revived, the followers become more and more fanatical, leading to more extreme actions that begin to fade from 'war' to near-religious terrorism. As Marida Cruz said, belief in the ideals of Zeon Zum-Deikun had become a religion for many. And like I said in my first argument, many of the colonists (And certainly themselves) see themselves as freedom fighters, seeking to liberate space from the perceived tyranny of Earth. So yes, probably not as grey as the writers like to think, but grey nonetheless. (Sorry for such a long and backstory heavy response)
*** I still think that Operation British alone (which would've fucked up Earth even if the colony hit Jaburo) got the whole thing as close to black and white as a gritty, realistic war series could get without getting actual Nazis involved. And I'm fairly certain that even if Side 3 was allowed to peacefully secede, it would've been heavily dependent on Earth. A mostly unsettled (as far as the Europeans were concerned) new continent would have much more resources needed for survival and prosperity than big metal tubes out in space.
*** Is the colony drop that much further from the use of nuclear weapons? Sure, it's a couple orders of magnitude greater, but the concept is still the same: We're going to completely wipe out our target and everything around it. And they probably would have had to rely on Earth for many of their supplies.
*** Nuclear weapons are still heavy shit. The colony drop was, therefore, shit that was a couple orders of magnitude heavier.
*** But the general effect is the same, just on a larger scale. Lots of people are going to die. A nuke isn't that much further from weeks of intensive bombing, and a colony drop isn't that much further from a nuke. It doesn't immediately cross the Moral Event Horizon to deploy a colony drop, so much as it illustrates the extreme measures being used to try to bring the war to an end. Afterall, it was still within the limits of the Antarctic Treaty that prohibited the use of nuclear weapons.
*** The Antarctic Treaty came about ''as a result'' of the One Week War, which ended in Operation British, and prohibited colony drops as well as NBC weapons. Oh, and it was desperation to end (on their terms) the ''war of aggression waged over the same sort of piddly crap that Quebecois separatists think is a big deal.'' And last I checked, nukes don't cause giant tsunamis.
*** Damn, all my research and I completely missed the Antarctic treaty's signing date. Next I'll be claiming the Geneva Convention came about because of Napoleon's abuse of prisoners. As for that 'piddly crap', it obviously meant a great deal to them. Independence is funny like that. Even if it isn't feasible, people are willing to fight for the chance. And who wouldn't try to bring the war to an end on their terms? This is pretty standard when things get desperate, and the chance to win grows slimmer or suddenly gains a larger price tag. Although, the more I think about it, this was probably too extreme. We've strayed a bit far from the main topic though, haven't we? I'm partly to blame here, I should be trying to prove it's grey/dark grey instead of trying to justify all of Zeon's over-the-line actions.
*** But people keep going on about how ''noble'' Zeon's goals are. If Zeon's goals are noble, then so are the goals of Quebecois separatists. And no, Operation British wasn't an act of desperation. The Solar Ray was an act of desperation. Operation British was always going to cap off Zeon's initial offensive. It just so happened that the casualties they took moving the colony into position were the straw that broke the camel's back, preventing them from doing more drops. And this whole argument? We never really left the original subject: In light of how pointless Zeon's endgame was, and the brutality used, on the battlefield and on the home front, in the attempt to reach it, and the holdouts who continued to carry out said brutality in the name of a dead cause, invalidates the UC's claim to all moral ambiguity, all the time.

*** But the general effect is the same, just on a larger scale. Lots of people are going to die. A nuke isn't that much further from weeks of intensive bombing, and a colony drop isn't that much further from a nuke. It doesn't immediately cross the Moral Event Horizon to deploy a colony drop, so much as it illustrates the extreme measures being used to try to bring the war to an end. Afterall, it was still within the limits of the Antarctic Treaty that prohibited the use of nuclear weapons.

*** Are areas that would be effected by tsunamis "around" Sydney? No, they were miles away, and tsunamis still fucked their shit up.

*** Are areas that would be effected by tsunamis "around" Sydney?