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** Yeah, because the sniper who has you pinned down and in all likelihood knows that stepping outside the building is basically signing her own death warrant is ''so'' going to leave cover and get drawn into the open.
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*** My horse is normal size. You did see the part at the bottom of the edit page re rudeness, right?

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*** Personally this troper wouldn't say she's that bad looking, granted given the short time she's on the screen it's hard to get a clear flattering screen shot of her (lets see she's spinning around shocked to see a bunch of soldiers, firing a gun with a heck of a kick, then is shot and bleeding to death = not much time for her to pose for the camera) granted she's not the most attractive girl they could have cast but other than the rather disturbing lack of eyebrows this troper don't see much wrong with her.



*** Personally this troper wouldn't say she's that bad looking, granted given the short time she's on the screen it's hard to get a clear flattering screen shot of her (lets see she's spinning around shocked to see a bunch of soldiers, firing a gun with a heck of a kick, then is shot and bleeding to death = not much time for her to pose for the camera) granted she's not the most attractive girl they could have cast but other than the rather disturbing lack of eyebrows this troper don't see much wrong with her
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*** Personally this troper wouldn't say she's that bad looking, granted given the short time she's on the screen it's hard to get a clear flattering screen shot of her (lets see she's spinning around shocked to see a bunch of soldiers, firing a gun with a heck of a kick, then is shot and bleeding to death = not much time for her to pose for the camera) granted she's not the most attractive girl they could have cast but other than the rather disturbing lack of eyebrows this troper don't see much wrong with her
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** That's the point. Aside from that, people are capable of having individual ideas and values. Get off your high horse.
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* One of the Aesops of the film was delivered by Eightball when he sarcastically says the Vietnamese are dumb because they would rather be alive than be free. This is delivered by a black male at a time where the work of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and others who died to see equal rights for all would be especially fresh in the people's mind. This just bugs me. I'm sure Patrick Henry, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and the Free French would disagree.

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* One of the Aesops of the film was delivered by Eightball when he sarcastically says the Vietnamese are dumb because they would rather be alive than be free. This is delivered by a black male at a time where the work of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and others who died to see equal rights for all would be especially fresh in the people's mind. This just bugs me. I'm sure Patrick Henry, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and the Free French would disagree.agree with me.
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* One of the Aesops of the film was delivered by Eightball when he sarcastically says the Vietnamese are dumb because they would rather be alive than be free. This is delivered by a black male at a time where the work of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and others who died to see equal rights for all would be especially fresh in the people's mind. This just bugs me. I'm sure Patrick Henry, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and the Free French would disagree.
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** To Sgt. Hartman's credit, he did try to calmly tell Pyle to place the weapon on the deck and step away. But when Pyle didn't comply, Hartman reverted to his default method of persuasion (i.e. yelling and berating). But again, you're right. Hartman should have executed more caution when dealing with Pyle.
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** If you were the drill instructor, would you verbally humiliate a visibly-disturbed man holding a gun you've been told is loaded? Not that he deserved it: but wouldn't it have made more sense ''not'' to escalate, in that lopsided scenario?

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*** That's true. People go crazy based on their own timing. Being away from home for the first time (for many recruits) is stressful. Those who go to milder training (as pointed out above) only know how much their own situations suck. When I went to Boot Camp in 1987, we had our share of crazies, too. At that time, Marine Corps Boot Camp was very similar to what was shown in the movie, except that I never saw a senior drill instructor who was an E-7. All of them were E-5 or E-6. The senior drill instructor was usually the milder of the three or four assigned to the platoon. Only one of them was really known for hitting recruits and he was only temporarily assigned to my platoon, long enough to punch me in the head on one occasion, but he was best known for the time he butt-stroked a recruit right in the face. We started out with 84 recruits and ended up with 70, including a few who had been picked up from other platoons along the way. That means more than 14 original recruits were weeded out, either because of mental or physical problems, or they couldn't pass the training. We had one who refused to follow orders and two who desserted and we never saw them again. My point is, these were all volunteers in peace times. In fact, there was even a rule prohibiting recruits from taking weapons into the head (latrine/bathroom) for this very reason. Apparently, shooting yourself in the head while sitting on a toilet is appealing to depressed/crazy recruits.

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*** That's true. People go crazy based on their own timing. Being away from home for the first time (for many recruits) is stressful. Those who go to milder training (as pointed out above) only know how much their own situations suck. When I went to Boot Camp in 1987, we had our share of crazies, too. At that time, Marine Corps Boot Camp was very similar to what was shown in the movie, except that I never saw a senior drill instructor who was an E-7. All of them were E-5 or E-6. The senior drill instructor was usually the milder of the three or four assigned to the platoon. Only one of them was really known for hitting recruits and he was only temporarily assigned to my platoon, long enough to punch me in the head on one occasion, but he was best known for the time he butt-stroked a recruit right in the face. We started out with 84 recruits and ended up with 70, including a few who had been picked up from other platoons along the way. That means more than 14 original recruits were weeded out, either because of mental or physical problems, or they couldn't pass the training. We had one who refused to follow orders and two who desserted and we never saw them again. My point is, these were all volunteers in peace times. In fact, there was even a rule prohibiting recruits from taking weapons into the head (latrine/bathroom) for this very reason. Apparently, shooting yourself in the head while sitting on a toilet is appealing to depressed/crazy recruits. recruits.
**** How many other places can a recruit find (at least temporary) privacy? If someone is determined to commit suicide, what's "appealing" about the location is a reduced chance of being interrupted: therefore, greater chances of going through with it.
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** From what we've seen of Pyle, he's not too bright, he's pretty heavy, and quite frankly, desperate for approval. Chances are, he's gotten this kind of abuse in the civilian world as well and the Marine Corps was his attempt to better himself and gain some respect. He probably had an idea of how hard it would be to get through the training, but he probably didn't think it would be this hard. After going through the physical and mental abuse, Pyle eventually figured that it would only get harder after this and more likely than not, he was going to die out in the field, never able to reap the fruits of his labor. He would be going from one hell to another. Since he couldn't handle the real world and the corps was going to kill him, Pyle decided to lash out at the one figure who he could immediately blame for his suffering: Sgt. Hartman. Once doing that, it was a matter of time before he killed himself.

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** Why so much talk about Hartman being evil or not? He is not the point of boot camp, however fun he may be to quote. The point is the things he did which were, presumably SOP - forcing a bunch of impressionable 18-year-olds to pray to be able to kill, to line up every morning and scream 'BLOOD!BLOOD!BLOOD!', implying that what's important is shooting straight, not who you're shooting(Lee Harvey Oswald). It's ugly and harsh and THAT IS THE POINT. War is evil and ugly, and this is what you have to do to men to make them fight it. Pyle goes nuts because the training works TOO WELL - he wants to kill, he CAN kill and... oops. He's killing the wrong thing, that's all. The helicopter gunner, later - is he disturbing because he's a murdering fuck? Well, yes, but more than that - he is the LOGICAL CONCLUSION of the training given at boot camp. He is what boot camp wanted to create, from what we see. Joker is our main character BECAUSE the training doesn't take to him - he retains humanity, until, it is implied, the very end when he executes the sniper. Hartman ain't the point folks - the system he's enforcing is.
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** Whatever, I’d hit it!

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** Whatever, I’d I'd hit it!
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*** That's true. People go crazy based on their own timing. Being away from home for the first time (for many recruits) is stressful. Those who go to milder training (as pointed out above) only know how much their own situations suck. When I went to Boot Camp in 1987, we had our share of crazies, too. We started out with 84 recruits and ended up with 70, including a few who had been picked up from other platoons along the way. That means more than 14 original recruits were weeded out, either because of mental or physical problems, or they couldn't pass the training. We had one who refused to follow orders and two who desserted and we never saw them again. My point is, these were all volunteers in peace times. In fact, there was even a rule prohibiting recruits from taking weapons into the head (latrine/bathroom) for this very reason. Apparently, shooting yourself in the head while sitting on a toilet is appealing to depressed/crazy recruits.

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*** That's true. People go crazy based on their own timing. Being away from home for the first time (for many recruits) is stressful. Those who go to milder training (as pointed out above) only know how much their own situations suck. When I went to Boot Camp in 1987, we had our share of crazies, too. At that time, Marine Corps Boot Camp was very similar to what was shown in the movie, except that I never saw a senior drill instructor who was an E-7. All of them were E-5 or E-6. The senior drill instructor was usually the milder of the three or four assigned to the platoon. Only one of them was really known for hitting recruits and he was only temporarily assigned to my platoon, long enough to punch me in the head on one occasion, but he was best known for the time he butt-stroked a recruit right in the face. We started out with 84 recruits and ended up with 70, including a few who had been picked up from other platoons along the way. That means more than 14 original recruits were weeded out, either because of mental or physical problems, or they couldn't pass the training. We had one who refused to follow orders and two who desserted and we never saw them again. My point is, these were all volunteers in peace times. In fact, there was even a rule prohibiting recruits from taking weapons into the head (latrine/bathroom) for this very reason. Apparently, shooting yourself in the head while sitting on a toilet is appealing to depressed/crazy recruits.

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** It happens often in training like that, this troper experiencing it first-hand even in the "milder" Army. I think him going insane supposed to show the reality of life in training.

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** It happens often in training like that, this troper experiencing it first-hand even in the "milder" Army. I think him going insane is supposed to show the reality of life in training.training.
*** That's true. People go crazy based on their own timing. Being away from home for the first time (for many recruits) is stressful. Those who go to milder training (as pointed out above) only know how much their own situations suck. When I went to Boot Camp in 1987, we had our share of crazies, too. We started out with 84 recruits and ended up with 70, including a few who had been picked up from other platoons along the way. That means more than 14 original recruits were weeded out, either because of mental or physical problems, or they couldn't pass the training. We had one who refused to follow orders and two who desserted and we never saw them again. My point is, these were all volunteers in peace times. In fact, there was even a rule prohibiting recruits from taking weapons into the head (latrine/bathroom) for this very reason. Apparently, shooting yourself in the head while sitting on a toilet is appealing to depressed/crazy recruits.
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**It happens often in training like that, this troper experiencing it first-hand even in the "milder" Army. I think him going insane supposed to show the reality of life in training.
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** Because Hasford joined the USMC, and Ermey used to be a USMC Drill Instructor? Ermey was a DI from '65 to '67, Hasford joined the USMC in '67, depending on the exact dates and where Hasford went through Boot, it's entirely possible (although doubtful) that he had Ermey as a DI. The more likely explanation comes from the fact that there is a training course that teaches drill instructors how to properly train recruits.
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**** That's how it works today, but at that point in time, and especially for the Marines it was more about weeding out the weak, getting rid of those that would hinder or hurt other Marines
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* If R. Lee Ermey improvised a great deal of his lines, how did he manage to improvise something that's about 99% similar to Gustav Hasford's original novel?
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PT = poop

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** Physical Torture to those who get paid to do it.
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** No, throwing smoke grenades is still a good idea, even today. It's not a distraction. It's used for concealment. It's less effective when you have an enemy with numerous weapons trained on you and plenty of ammo, especially if he has machine guns, but it's still better than nothing and it's especially effective when you're facing an enemy with few weapons or very little ammo. The smoke conceals your movement. The enemy knows (or thinks) you're going to go through there and he might even fire into the smoke and hope to hit you, but the difference is, he doesn't know exactly where you are (like he does when there's no smoke), won't know if he hit you, and won't know if you've moved. You could pop somoke, then stay where you are and try to draw him out, shift positions to get a better view of his position, flank him or bypass his position, or advance. Smoke is a good thing. I'd rather inhale the stuff than have him have an unobstructed view of my movement.
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** PT = Physical Training.
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*** I'm thinking that from the point at which he gets that thousand-yard stare, he had every intention of doing what he did, and the training fron then on was him psyching himself up.

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*** I'm thinking that from the point at which he gets that thousand-yard stare, he had every intention of doing what he did, and the training fron from then on was him psyching himself up.
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Utter, unfounded, tin-foil-hat-time speculation, of course!

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*** I'm thinking that from the point at which he gets that thousand-yard stare, he had every intention of doing what he did, and the training fron then on was him psyching himself up.
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** In a situation like this throwing them as a distraction would do nothing. Throwing smoke grenades where you're going through is very bad for two reasons; one, even as early as World War II, people figured out "hey concealing smoke, they're going through that area now let's start firing" and two, the chemicals used in smoke grenades are very, very nasty to inhale; like extremely carcinogenic nasty. If you did what most people were doing by this time (and still do) throw them elsewhere to distract, well in a situation like this they know you're just trying to distract them to make a move for their wounded and all you just did was tip them off that you're about to move.
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**** Yikes. No, I've never even heard of him. I was referring to something from ThatotherWiki. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness#Determinants_of_female_physical_attractiveness]]
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** By the time Animal Mother confirmed that they were dealing with a single sniper rather than the "strong enemy forces" Cowboy thought were hiding in the buildings, the wounded soldiers had already been killed.
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**A smoke grenade probably would have been a good idea, but the Marines in the scene were in a panic and, like mentioned above, might not have had any with them at the time.
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** It's been over a year since I've watched the film, but smoke grenades aren't necessarily common. Also, there's the fact that they're inaccurate over a distance and you'd have to breath smoke in the process. Smoke grenades damage your ability to react to an attack as well as your enemy's. There might have been some concern about getting attacked while in the smoke cloud or the cloud dispersing too quickly or while they were moving the wounded soldiers.
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*Why didn't the marines just use smoke grenades to obscure the view of the sniper, then rescue the wounded soldiers?

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