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** Oh, and going independent is the optimal solution for the average Deathknight as well. Or any Solars under the Cult of the Illuminated. Or Dragon-Blooded who don't want to get caught up in the backstabbing politics or incipient Civil War of the Realm. Just saying--Exalted who continue to exist as part of the current power structure rather than striking out on their own are unlikely to gain the glory or power of those who do.
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** Oh, and going independent is the optimal solution for the average Deathknight as well. Or any Solars under the Cult of the Illuminated. Or Dragon-Blooded who don't want to get caught up in the backstabbing politics or incipient Civil War of the Realm. Just saying--Exalted who continue to exist as part of the current power structure rather than striking out on their own are unlikely to gain the glory or power of those who do.do.
** And yet, the above posters ignore that the writer who painted them as unsympathetic ''[[OldShame specifically admitted he didn't understand the design goals]]''. The Ink Monkeys themeslves stated that the original goal was to make them ever-so-slightly {{Likable Villain}}s. You can even see this in Return of the Scarlet Empress (which assumes that without PC intervention, the Reclamation works), where Isidoros ''helps the players''.
** And yet, the above posters ignore that the writer who painted them as unsympathetic ''[[OldShame specifically admitted he didn't understand the design goals]]''. The Ink Monkeys themeslves stated that the original goal was to make them ever-so-slightly {{Likable Villain}}s. You can even see this in Return of the Scarlet Empress (which assumes that without PC intervention, the Reclamation works), where Isidoros ''helps the players''.
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***** Where, exactly, was this implied? It's the Primordials from a Primordial point of view. [[MoralMyopia Of course it paints them as victims]]!
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** YMMV, as always, but this is why Games of Divinity's Yozis were much better than anything that came after.
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** YMMV, as always, but this is why Games of Divinity's Yozis were much better than anything that came after.after.
** The Yozis weren't just backgrounds. But they were presented early on as generally a lot less comprehensible. Eventually, of course, the idea came about that as Primordials were evidently killable--and as for good or for ill, the Exalted should be able to repeat this--"incomprehensible-albeit-rather-malicious sentient scenery" probably wasn't the best way to go with the Yozis. Infernals--and later, Return of the Scarlet Empress--gave some stong insights into exactly how the Primordials work and why. However, there's a reason why the first few chapters (in which, for instance, Cecylene is referred to as a "brave princess" of the Primordials) are openly considered DisContinuity. Pretty much everything else we saw made it pretty clear that the Yozis were not good, nor nice, and if you're a human, generally NOT good at all to have lording over you. And yes, this means that for the good of the world, the idiot savant Yozis were locked away. I really don't see where the idea came about that the Yozis ever had massive reader sympathy; honestly, it seems like once the Devil-Tiger path came about, people generally stopped caring about reforming the Yozis at all because a.) it would be too much work, compared to b.) becoming a titan yourself. Still, the general feel one gets from the forums these days is that the freelancers--who contain, admittedly, more than one AscendedFanboy--are communicating with each other, and the fan base there. And if someone gets the impression that they aren't sure whether the Primordials are cosmic forces the Exalted can somehow aid or refine into something more than their current broken, mad glory; or whether they're monsters who need to be destroyed as the threats to Creation--or threats to Creation's end--that they are, and perhaps opened up as a loot piñata...well, [[GreyAndGreyMorality there's probably a reason.]] I'll miss the alien plot-device Yozis of 1e, but Infernals gave some good plot hooks and I'm finally accepting that they work.
** Oh, and going independent is the optimal solution for the average Deathknight as well. Or any Solars under the Cult of the Illuminated. Or Dragon-Blooded who don't want to get caught up in the backstabbing politics or incipient Civil War of the Realm. Just saying--Exalted who continue to exist as part of the current power structure rather than striking out on their own are unlikely to gain the glory or power of those who do.
** The Yozis weren't just backgrounds. But they were presented early on as generally a lot less comprehensible. Eventually, of course, the idea came about that as Primordials were evidently killable--and as for good or for ill, the Exalted should be able to repeat this--"incomprehensible-albeit-rather-malicious sentient scenery" probably wasn't the best way to go with the Yozis. Infernals--and later, Return of the Scarlet Empress--gave some stong insights into exactly how the Primordials work and why. However, there's a reason why the first few chapters (in which, for instance, Cecylene is referred to as a "brave princess" of the Primordials) are openly considered DisContinuity. Pretty much everything else we saw made it pretty clear that the Yozis were not good, nor nice, and if you're a human, generally NOT good at all to have lording over you. And yes, this means that for the good of the world, the idiot savant Yozis were locked away. I really don't see where the idea came about that the Yozis ever had massive reader sympathy; honestly, it seems like once the Devil-Tiger path came about, people generally stopped caring about reforming the Yozis at all because a.) it would be too much work, compared to b.) becoming a titan yourself. Still, the general feel one gets from the forums these days is that the freelancers--who contain, admittedly, more than one AscendedFanboy--are communicating with each other, and the fan base there. And if someone gets the impression that they aren't sure whether the Primordials are cosmic forces the Exalted can somehow aid or refine into something more than their current broken, mad glory; or whether they're monsters who need to be destroyed as the threats to Creation--or threats to Creation's end--that they are, and perhaps opened up as a loot piñata...well, [[GreyAndGreyMorality there's probably a reason.]] I'll miss the alien plot-device Yozis of 1e, but Infernals gave some good plot hooks and I'm finally accepting that they work.
** Oh, and going independent is the optimal solution for the average Deathknight as well. Or any Solars under the Cult of the Illuminated. Or Dragon-Blooded who don't want to get caught up in the backstabbing politics or incipient Civil War of the Realm. Just saying--Exalted who continue to exist as part of the current power structure rather than striking out on their own are unlikely to gain the glory or power of those who do.
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* Basically, the newer exalted material is being torn about six ways by the apparently inconsistent whims of {{AscendedFanboy}}s who are RunningTheAsylum. In the case of primordial characterisation what seems to have happened is this (all in my very limited understanding from occasionally reading the white wolf forums): in the beginning, the Yozis were minor background characters who existed to explain where summoned demons came from. PC's had no real reason to interact with them and they were left mostly undefined. Then Infernals were introduced and they decided to make the new group's patrons into actual characters who they'd meet and interact with. The idea that Infernals could heal their patrons by creating benevolently themed charms was floated. This and the way that Infernals work meant that Yozis had to be stated and turned from omnipotent creatures only vulnerable to armies of exalted and acts of plot into something that an individual Solar can fight - hence Retarded Cthulhu. Then people started to sympathise with the Yozis and look harshly on the Exalted because torturing and enslaving insane people for a crime that they were physically impossible of understanding was wrong isn't very nice (my bias is showing I know) and because it's just the nature of the beast - people will talk about and sympathise with the Yozis because they're actuall characters who can be discussed while the Exalted only exist within the context of each individual game (it's worth noting that the Incarnae get much more sympathy because, again, they have actual solid personalities which can be addressed). So the writers did a u-turn and tried to make the Yozis as unsympathetic as possible in the most recent material and push the idea that Infernals should go independant at the first opportunity. Then they published that Legend of the Titans article and left a complete confused mess.
All IMHO of course.
All IMHO of course.
to:
* Basically, the newer exalted material is being torn about six ways by the apparently inconsistent whims of {{AscendedFanboy}}s who are RunningTheAsylum. In the case of primordial characterisation what seems to have happened is this (all in my very limited understanding from occasionally reading the white wolf forums): in the beginning, the Yozis were minor background characters who existed to explain where summoned demons came from. PC's had no real reason to interact with them and they were left mostly undefined. Then Infernals were introduced and they decided to make the new group's patrons into actual characters who they'd meet and interact with. The idea that Infernals could heal their patrons by creating benevolently themed charms was floated. This and the way that Infernals work meant that Yozis had to be stated and turned from omnipotent creatures only vulnerable to armies of exalted and acts of plot into something that an individual Solar can fight - hence Retarded Cthulhu. Then people started to sympathise with the Yozis and look harshly on the Exalted because torturing and enslaving insane people for a crime that they were physically impossible of understanding was wrong isn't very nice (my bias is showing I know) and because it's just the nature of the beast - people will talk about and sympathise with the Yozis because they're actuall characters who can be discussed while the Exalted only exist within the context of each individual game (it's worth noting that the Incarnae get much more sympathy because, again, they have actual solid personalities which can be addressed). So the writers did a u-turn and tried to make the Yozis as unsympathetic as possible in the most recent material and push the idea that Infernals should go independant at the first opportunity. Then they published that Legend of the Titans article and left a complete confused mess.
mess. All IMHO of course.course.
** YMMV, as always, but this is why Games of Divinity's Yozis were much better than anything that came after.
** YMMV, as always, but this is why Games of Divinity's Yozis were much better than anything that came after.
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**** Err... that's what the original poster was complaining about. What you described is what it was. Now the Exalted are pretty much objectively wrong. As were the gods. {{Grey and Grey Morality}} went right out the window in a ({{YMMV}}) poorly written article. It is not a case of saying, "Oh look, we did some nasty things in our past we're going to white-wash." It's a, "These guys were right and you were wrong." In how they wrote it, they accidentally justified the Yozis as being right. Full stop right, not maybe right or from a certain point of view. The beings that do cartwheels on the spectrum of retarded Cthulhu to Lord of the Universe were right and you were wrong... what?
to:
**** Err... that's what the original poster was complaining about. What you described is what it was. Now the Exalted are pretty much objectively wrong. As were the gods. {{Grey and Grey Morality}} went right out the window in a ({{YMMV}}) poorly written article. It is not a case of saying, "Oh look, we did some nasty things in our past we're going to white-wash." It's a, "These guys were right and you were wrong." In how they wrote it, they accidentally justified the Yozis as being right. Full stop right, not maybe right or from a certain point of view. The beings that do cartwheels on the spectrum of retarded Cthulhu to Lord of the Universe were right and you were wrong... what?what?
* Basically, the newer exalted material is being torn about six ways by the apparently inconsistent whims of {{AscendedFanboy}}s who are RunningTheAsylum. In the case of primordial characterisation what seems to have happened is this (all in my very limited understanding from occasionally reading the white wolf forums): in the beginning, the Yozis were minor background characters who existed to explain where summoned demons came from. PC's had no real reason to interact with them and they were left mostly undefined. Then Infernals were introduced and they decided to make the new group's patrons into actual characters who they'd meet and interact with. The idea that Infernals could heal their patrons by creating benevolently themed charms was floated. This and the way that Infernals work meant that Yozis had to be stated and turned from omnipotent creatures only vulnerable to armies of exalted and acts of plot into something that an individual Solar can fight - hence Retarded Cthulhu. Then people started to sympathise with the Yozis and look harshly on the Exalted because torturing and enslaving insane people for a crime that they were physically impossible of understanding was wrong isn't very nice (my bias is showing I know) and because it's just the nature of the beast - people will talk about and sympathise with the Yozis because they're actuall characters who can be discussed while the Exalted only exist within the context of each individual game (it's worth noting that the Incarnae get much more sympathy because, again, they have actual solid personalities which can be addressed). So the writers did a u-turn and tried to make the Yozis as unsympathetic as possible in the most recent material and push the idea that Infernals should go independant at the first opportunity. Then they published that Legend of the Titans article and left a complete confused mess.
All IMHO of course.
* Basically, the newer exalted material is being torn about six ways by the apparently inconsistent whims of {{AscendedFanboy}}s who are RunningTheAsylum. In the case of primordial characterisation what seems to have happened is this (all in my very limited understanding from occasionally reading the white wolf forums): in the beginning, the Yozis were minor background characters who existed to explain where summoned demons came from. PC's had no real reason to interact with them and they were left mostly undefined. Then Infernals were introduced and they decided to make the new group's patrons into actual characters who they'd meet and interact with. The idea that Infernals could heal their patrons by creating benevolently themed charms was floated. This and the way that Infernals work meant that Yozis had to be stated and turned from omnipotent creatures only vulnerable to armies of exalted and acts of plot into something that an individual Solar can fight - hence Retarded Cthulhu. Then people started to sympathise with the Yozis and look harshly on the Exalted because torturing and enslaving insane people for a crime that they were physically impossible of understanding was wrong isn't very nice (my bias is showing I know) and because it's just the nature of the beast - people will talk about and sympathise with the Yozis because they're actuall characters who can be discussed while the Exalted only exist within the context of each individual game (it's worth noting that the Incarnae get much more sympathy because, again, they have actual solid personalities which can be addressed). So the writers did a u-turn and tried to make the Yozis as unsympathetic as possible in the most recent material and push the idea that Infernals should go independant at the first opportunity. Then they published that Legend of the Titans article and left a complete confused mess.
All IMHO of course.
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**** Err... that's what the original poster was complaining about. What you described is what it was. Now the Exalted are pretty much objectively wrong. As were the gods, and the maidens. {{Grey and Grey Morality}} went right out the window in a ({{YMMV}}) poorly written article.
to:
**** Err... that's what the original poster was complaining about. What you described is what it was. Now the Exalted are pretty much objectively wrong. As were the gods, and the maidens.gods. {{Grey and Grey Morality}} went right out the window in a ({{YMMV}}) poorly written article. It is not a case of saying, "Oh look, we did some nasty things in our past we're going to white-wash." It's a, "These guys were right and you were wrong." In how they wrote it, they accidentally justified the Yozis as being right. Full stop right, not maybe right or from a certain point of view. The beings that do cartwheels on the spectrum of retarded Cthulhu to Lord of the Universe were right and you were wrong... what?
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**** Err... that's what the original poster was complaining about. What you described is what it was. Now the Exalted are pretty much objectively wrong.
to:
**** Err... that's what the original poster was complaining about. What you described is what it was. Now the Exalted are pretty much objectively wrong. As were the gods, and the maidens. {{Grey and Grey Morality}} went right out the window in a ({{YMMV}}) poorly written article.
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Changed line(s) 23 (click to see context) from:
**** Except that the Exalted weren't the good guys, nor were the Primordials (necessarily) bad guys. For the Exalted, it's, objectively, a {{Grey and Grey Morality}} issue, since what the Primordials had done and were likely to continue doing was bad for humanity, so the Exalted are doing a sorta-right thing (overthrowing the creators of the universe (and arguably, at the time, the beings that kept it in existence) in order to save your species), but it's been planned out for all the wrong reasons. Do recall that, of the nine beings who masterminded the Primordial War, the only one of them whose prime motive was actually the good of the world was Gaia, and that was selfish too on her part since she IS the material world. The Unconquered Sun wanted to stop the Primordials from doing all the unrighteous things they were doing to his worshipers (Humanity and the Dragon Kings, really) in the name of finishing Creation. Autochthon wanted revenge for the various torments the other Primordials put him through. The Maidens were extremely overworked since much of the world's fate was constantly in flux as the Primordials made their tweaks and left it to them to make sure they didn't screw with the rest of Creation. Luna just went along with his/her buddy, Sol.
to:
**** Except that the Exalted weren't the good guys, nor were the Primordials (necessarily) bad guys. For the Exalted, it's, objectively, a {{Grey and Grey Morality}} issue, since what the Primordials had done and were likely to continue doing was bad for humanity, so the Exalted are doing a sorta-right thing (overthrowing the creators of the universe (and arguably, at the time, the beings that kept it in existence) in order to save your species), but it's been planned out for all the wrong reasons. Do recall that, of the nine beings who masterminded the Primordial War, the only one of them whose prime motive was actually the good of the world was Gaia, and that was selfish too on her part since she IS the material world. The Unconquered Sun wanted to stop the Primordials from doing all the unrighteous things they were doing to his worshipers (Humanity and the Dragon Kings, really) in the name of finishing Creation. Autochthon wanted revenge for the various torments the other Primordials put him through. The Maidens were extremely overworked since much of the world's fate was constantly in flux as the Primordials made their tweaks and left it to them to make sure they didn't screw with the rest of Creation. Luna just went along with his/her buddy, Sol.Sol.
**** Err... that's what the original poster was complaining about. What you described is what it was. Now the Exalted are pretty much objectively wrong.
**** Err... that's what the original poster was complaining about. What you described is what it was. Now the Exalted are pretty much objectively wrong.
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Changed line(s) 23 (click to see context) from:
**** Except that the Exalted weren't the good guys, nor were the Primordials (necessarily) bad guys. For the Exalted, it's, objectively, a {{Grey and Grey Morality}} issue, since what the Primordials had done and were likely to continue doing was bad for humanity, so the Exalted are doing a sorta-right thing (overthrowing the creators of the universe (and arguably, at the time, the beings that kept it in existence) in order to save your species), but it's been planned out for all the wrong reasons. Do recall that, of the nine beings who masterminded the Primordial War, the only one of them whose prime motive was the good of the world was Gaia, and even that was selfish since she IS the material world. Autochthon wanted revenge for the various torments the other Primordials put him through, while the Unconquered Sun, Luna, and the Maidens wanted to take an age off and play a few (million) rounds of the Games of Divinity in Yu Shan, but the Primordials wouldn't open up the Old Boy's Club.
to:
**** Except that the Exalted weren't the good guys, nor were the Primordials (necessarily) bad guys. For the Exalted, it's, objectively, a {{Grey and Grey Morality}} issue, since what the Primordials had done and were likely to continue doing was bad for humanity, so the Exalted are doing a sorta-right thing (overthrowing the creators of the universe (and arguably, at the time, the beings that kept it in existence) in order to save your species), but it's been planned out for all the wrong reasons. Do recall that, of the nine beings who masterminded the Primordial War, the only one of them whose prime motive was actually the good of the world was Gaia, and even that was selfish too on her part since she IS the material world. world. The Unconquered Sun wanted to stop the Primordials from doing all the unrighteous things they were doing to his worshipers (Humanity and the Dragon Kings, really) in the name of finishing Creation. Autochthon wanted revenge for the various torments the other Primordials put him through, while the Unconquered Sun, Luna, and the through. The Maidens wanted to take an age off and play a few (million) rounds were extremely overworked since much of the Games of Divinity world's fate was constantly in Yu Shan, but flux as the Primordials wouldn't open up made their tweaks and left it to them to make sure they didn't screw with the Old Boy's Club.rest of Creation. Luna just went along with his/her buddy, Sol.
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**** Except that the Exalted weren't the good guys, nor were the Primordials (necessarily) bad guys. For the Exalted, it's, objectively, a {{Grey and Grey Morality}} issue, since what the Primordials had done and were likely to continue doing was bad for humanity, so the Exalted are doing a sorta-right thing (overthrowing the creators of the universe (and arguably, at the time, the beings that kept it in existence) in order to save your species), but it's been planned out for all the wrong reasons. Do recall that, of the nine beings who masterminded the Primordial War, the only one of them whose prime motive was the good of the world was Gaia, and even that was selfish since she IS the material world. Autochthon wanted revenge for the various bullshit the other Primordials pulled on him, and the Unconquered Sun, Luna, and the Maidens wanted to take an age off and play a few (million) rounds of the Games of Divinity in Yu Shan, but the Primordials wouldn't open up the Old Boy's Club.
to:
**** Except that the Exalted weren't the good guys, nor were the Primordials (necessarily) bad guys. For the Exalted, it's, objectively, a {{Grey and Grey Morality}} issue, since what the Primordials had done and were likely to continue doing was bad for humanity, so the Exalted are doing a sorta-right thing (overthrowing the creators of the universe (and arguably, at the time, the beings that kept it in existence) in order to save your species), but it's been planned out for all the wrong reasons. Do recall that, of the nine beings who masterminded the Primordial War, the only one of them whose prime motive was the good of the world was Gaia, and even that was selfish since she IS the material world. Autochthon wanted revenge for the various bullshit torments the other Primordials pulled on him, and put him through, while the Unconquered Sun, Luna, and the Maidens wanted to take an age off and play a few (million) rounds of the Games of Divinity in Yu Shan, but the Primordials wouldn't open up the Old Boy's Club.
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*** Because it changes the nature of the war and the war's meaning when they flip flop between the two like retarded Cthulhu instead of having a sense of consistency (even if that's in inconsistency or in incredible power beyond our understanding).
to:
*** Because it changes the nature of the war and the war's meaning when they flip flop between the two like retarded Cthulhu instead of having a sense of consistency (even if that's in inconsistency or in incredible power beyond our understanding).understanding).
**** Except that the Exalted weren't the good guys, nor were the Primordials (necessarily) bad guys. For the Exalted, it's, objectively, a {{Grey and Grey Morality}} issue, since what the Primordials had done and were likely to continue doing was bad for humanity, so the Exalted are doing a sorta-right thing (overthrowing the creators of the universe (and arguably, at the time, the beings that kept it in existence) in order to save your species), but it's been planned out for all the wrong reasons. Do recall that, of the nine beings who masterminded the Primordial War, the only one of them whose prime motive was the good of the world was Gaia, and even that was selfish since she IS the material world. Autochthon wanted revenge for the various bullshit the other Primordials pulled on him, and the Unconquered Sun, Luna, and the Maidens wanted to take an age off and play a few (million) rounds of the Games of Divinity in Yu Shan, but the Primordials wouldn't open up the Old Boy's Club.
**** Except that the Exalted weren't the good guys, nor were the Primordials (necessarily) bad guys. For the Exalted, it's, objectively, a {{Grey and Grey Morality}} issue, since what the Primordials had done and were likely to continue doing was bad for humanity, so the Exalted are doing a sorta-right thing (overthrowing the creators of the universe (and arguably, at the time, the beings that kept it in existence) in order to save your species), but it's been planned out for all the wrong reasons. Do recall that, of the nine beings who masterminded the Primordial War, the only one of them whose prime motive was the good of the world was Gaia, and even that was selfish since she IS the material world. Autochthon wanted revenge for the various bullshit the other Primordials pulled on him, and the Unconquered Sun, Luna, and the Maidens wanted to take an age off and play a few (million) rounds of the Games of Divinity in Yu Shan, but the Primordials wouldn't open up the Old Boy's Club.
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*** What about the Legend of the Titans entry stripped away the ambiguity? The wild careering between the characterisation of the Primordials as massive {{Woobie}}s and {{CompleteMonster}}s is very obvious, but I don't see how that passage is directly relevant to the war stuff.
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*** What about the Legend of the Titans entry stripped away the ambiguity? The wild careering between the characterisation of the Primordials as massive {{Woobie}}s and {{CompleteMonster}}s is very obvious, but I don't see how that passage is directly relevant to the war stuff.stuff.
*** Because it changes the nature of the war and the war's meaning when they flip flop between the two like retarded Cthulhu instead of having a sense of consistency (even if that's in inconsistency or in incredible power beyond our understanding).
*** Because it changes the nature of the war and the war's meaning when they flip flop between the two like retarded Cthulhu instead of having a sense of consistency (even if that's in inconsistency or in incredible power beyond our understanding).
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*** What about the Legend of the Titans entry stripped away the ambiguity? The wild careering between the characterisation of the Primordials as massive {{Woobie}}s and [[CompleteMonster]]s is very obvious, but I don't see how that passage is directly relevant to the war stuff.
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*** What about the Legend of the Titans entry stripped away the ambiguity? The wild careering between the characterisation of the Primordials as massive {{Woobie}}s and [[CompleteMonster]]s {{CompleteMonster}}s is very obvious, but I don't see how that passage is directly relevant to the war stuff.
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*** What about the Legend of the Titans entry stripped away the ambiguity? The wild careering between the characterisation of the Primordials as massive {{Woobie}}s and CompleteMonsters is very obvious, but I don't see how that passage is directly relevant to the war stuff.
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*** What about the Legend of the Titans entry stripped away the ambiguity? The wild careering between the characterisation of the Primordials as massive {{Woobie}}s and CompleteMonsters [[CompleteMonster]]s is very obvious, but I don't see how that passage is directly relevant to the war stuff.
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** The Legends of the Titan's entry is a good example. What was up with that? It added nothing, detracted from the vastness of the Primordials, and changed the very underlying premise of the game in a way that you can make a very, very compelling (to the point of there being no counterargument) that the Exalted are evil and the Primordials were right. No more gray morality on that one.
to:
** The Legends of the Titan's entry is a good example. What was up with that? It added nothing, detracted from the vastness of the Primordials, and changed the very underlying premise of the game in a way that you can make a very, very compelling (to the point of there being no counterargument) that the Exalted are evil and the Primordials were right. No more gray morality on that one.one.
*** What about the Legend of the Titans entry stripped away the ambiguity? The wild careering between the characterisation of the Primordials as massive {{Woobie}}s and CompleteMonsters is very obvious, but I don't see how that passage is directly relevant to the war stuff.
*** What about the Legend of the Titans entry stripped away the ambiguity? The wild careering between the characterisation of the Primordials as massive {{Woobie}}s and CompleteMonsters is very obvious, but I don't see how that passage is directly relevant to the war stuff.
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*** And, to reiterate, the original poster didn't say anything about the Dawn Solution, per se.
to:
*** And, to reiterate, the original poster didn't say anything about the Dawn Solution, per se.se.
** The Legends of the Titan's entry is a good example. What was up with that? It added nothing, detracted from the vastness of the Primordials, and changed the very underlying premise of the game in a way that you can make a very, very compelling (to the point of there being no counterargument) that the Exalted are evil and the Primordials were right. No more gray morality on that one.
** The Legends of the Titan's entry is a good example. What was up with that? It added nothing, detracted from the vastness of the Primordials, and changed the very underlying premise of the game in a way that you can make a very, very compelling (to the point of there being no counterargument) that the Exalted are evil and the Primordials were right. No more gray morality on that one.
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*** Hmm. That's the best explanation I've heard for it. Still disagree with large swaths of the Dawn Solution, but it's certainly a good attempt.
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*** Hmm. That's the best explanation I've heard for it. Still disagree with large swaths of the Dawn Solution, but it's certainly a good attempt.attempt.
*** And, to reiterate, the original poster didn't say anything about the Dawn Solution, per se.
*** And, to reiterate, the original poster didn't say anything about the Dawn Solution, per se.
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*** Hmm. That's the best explanation I've heard for it. Still disagree with large swaths of it, but it's certainly a good attempt.
to:
*** Hmm. That's the best explanation I've heard for it. Still disagree with large swaths of it, the Dawn Solution, but it's certainly a good attempt.
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** The primary intent of the Dawn Solution was to make Dawns the best Solar caste at combat. Prior to it, Nights (because they had a much better Ability spread and a somewhat useful caste ability), Zeniths (decent ability spread) and Twilights (best caste ability) were much better than Dawns at combat, even though Dawns were meant to be the world's ultimate swordsmen and such. The main problem was that there wasn't really any advantage to having all five combat abilities; the main thing the Dawn solution did was provide was to let you use all of them at once in a fight. Solars ''as a whole'' weren't really buffed; they were just given alternate builds, so Dawn swordsmen and martial artists could compete with Night archery + dodge + athletics + stealth snipers.
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****** I believe you mean implicitly. Also, being a first hand account who leaves something out does not make you unreliable unless you're trying to deceive. He's decidedly reliable, just picky about what he tells you (which is patronizing, an ok character trait to make him flawed if not for the fact that his information is presented as infallible and he just knows better than you in all ways).
** The primary intent of the Dawn Solution was to make Dawns the best Solar caste at combat. Prior to it, Nights (because they had a much better Ability spread and a somewhat useful caste ability), Zeniths (decent ability spread) and Twilights (best caste ability) were much better than Dawns at combat, even though Dawns were meant to be the world's ultimate swordsmen and such. The main problem was that there wasn't really any advantage to having all five combat abilities; the main thing the Dawn solution did was provide was to let you use all of them at once in a fight. Solars ''as a whole'' weren't really buffed; they were just given alternate builds, so Dawn swordsmen and martial artists could compete with Night archery + dodge + athletics + stealthsnipers.snipers.
*** Hmm. That's the best explanation I've heard for it. Still disagree with large swaths of it, but it's certainly a good attempt.
** The primary intent of the Dawn Solution was to make Dawns the best Solar caste at combat. Prior to it, Nights (because they had a much better Ability spread and a somewhat useful caste ability), Zeniths (decent ability spread) and Twilights (best caste ability) were much better than Dawns at combat, even though Dawns were meant to be the world's ultimate swordsmen and such. The main problem was that there wasn't really any advantage to having all five combat abilities; the main thing the Dawn solution did was provide was to let you use all of them at once in a fight. Solars ''as a whole'' weren't really buffed; they were just given alternate builds, so Dawn swordsmen and martial artists could compete with Night archery + dodge + athletics + stealth
*** Hmm. That's the best explanation I've heard for it. Still disagree with large swaths of it, but it's certainly a good attempt.
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Changed line(s) 16 (click to see context) from:
** The primary intent of the Dawn Solution was to make Dawns the best Solar caste at combat. Prior to it, Nights (because they had a much better Ability spread and a somewhat useful caste ability), Zeniths (decent ability spread) and Twilights (best caste ability) were much better than Dawns at combat, even though Dawns were meant to be the world's ultimate swordsmen and such. The main problem was that there wasn't really any advantage to having all five combat abilities; the main thing the Dawn solution did was provide was to let you use all of them at once in a fight.
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** The primary intent of the Dawn Solution was to make Dawns the best Solar caste at combat. Prior to it, Nights (because they had a much better Ability spread and a somewhat useful caste ability), Zeniths (decent ability spread) and Twilights (best caste ability) were much better than Dawns at combat, even though Dawns were meant to be the world's ultimate swordsmen and such. The main problem was that there wasn't really any advantage to having all five combat abilities; the main thing the Dawn solution did was provide was to let you use all of them at once in a fight. Solars ''as a whole'' weren't really buffed; they were just given alternate builds, so Dawn swordsmen and martial artists could compete with Night archery + dodge + athletics + stealth snipers.
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***** Actually... it's the omniscient Ink Monkey who wrote him, in out of character introductory text, who presents him as reliable. This could be just a case of the author didn't realize that's how he presented it, however.
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***** Actually... it's the omniscient Ink Monkey who wrote him, in out of character introductory text, who presents him as reliable. This could be just a case of the author didn't realize that's how he presented it, however.however.
***** The Magnus' text is explicitly unreliable narration, though it's unreliable narration from someone who was in a place to know a lot about cosmology (and many of the important things, like the classifications of Deva, are more about how Solars saw the world rather than about sweeping metaphysical explanations.) But in some places it's easy to see that he's being deliberately written as unreliable -- go read his encounter with the ghost-thing of Brigid in the underworld, it's obvious that the Magnus left something very important out of his description of what happened.
**The primary intent of the Dawn Solution was to make Dawns the best Solar caste at combat. Prior to it, Nights (because they had a much better Ability spread and a somewhat useful caste ability), Zeniths (decent ability spread) and Twilights (best caste ability) were much better than Dawns at combat, even though Dawns were meant to be the world's ultimate swordsmen and such. The main problem was that there wasn't really any advantage to having all five combat abilities; the main thing the Dawn solution did was provide was to let you use all of them at once in a fight.
***** The Magnus' text is explicitly unreliable narration, though it's unreliable narration from someone who was in a place to know a lot about cosmology (and many of the important things, like the classifications of Deva, are more about how Solars saw the world rather than about sweeping metaphysical explanations.) But in some places it's easy to see that he's being deliberately written as unreliable -- go read his encounter with the ghost-thing of Brigid in the underworld, it's obvious that the Magnus left something very important out of his description of what happened.
**The primary intent of the Dawn Solution was to make Dawns the best Solar caste at combat. Prior to it, Nights (because they had a much better Ability spread and a somewhat useful caste ability), Zeniths (decent ability spread) and Twilights (best caste ability) were much better than Dawns at combat, even though Dawns were meant to be the world's ultimate swordsmen and such. The main problem was that there wasn't really any advantage to having all five combat abilities; the main thing the Dawn solution did was provide was to let you use all of them at once in a fight.
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**** Wait, in-character speeches by a First Age Solar have the monstrous presumption to claim to be omniscient and perfectly reliable? ... Is that surprising? It's essentially stuff in which the Magnus presents ''himself'' as a reliable omniscient narrator.
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**** Wait, in-character speeches by a First Age Solar have the monstrous presumption to claim to be omniscient and perfectly reliable? ... Is that surprising? It's essentially stuff in which the Magnus presents ''himself'' as a reliable omniscient narrator.narrator.
***** Actually... it's the omniscient Ink Monkey who wrote him, in out of character introductory text, who presents him as reliable. This could be just a case of the author didn't realize that's how he presented it, however.
***** Actually... it's the omniscient Ink Monkey who wrote him, in out of character introductory text, who presents him as reliable. This could be just a case of the author didn't realize that's how he presented it, however.
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*** Voice of the Magnus is another. An in character, probably unreliable narrator who is presented as a completely reliable, omniscient narrator in his subject matter. On top of that, he runs roughshod over almost everything the Solar Caste Books told us (which had some of the best damn first age fiction ever written).
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*** Voice of the Magnus is another. An in character, probably unreliable narrator who is presented as a completely reliable, omniscient narrator in his subject matter. On top of that, he runs roughshod over almost everything the Solar Caste Books told us (which had some of the best damn first age fiction ever written).written).
**** Wait, in-character speeches by a First Age Solar have the monstrous presumption to claim to be omniscient and perfectly reliable? ... Is that surprising? It's essentially stuff in which the Magnus presents ''himself'' as a reliable omniscient narrator.
**** Wait, in-character speeches by a First Age Solar have the monstrous presumption to claim to be omniscient and perfectly reliable? ... Is that surprising? It's essentially stuff in which the Magnus presents ''himself'' as a reliable omniscient narrator.
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**** So, basically, they're not minimal, they're subtle (well, except the Daystar-mech, but that was bullhonkey anyway). People think they're minimal because they don't get noticed, immediately. But they are there and they are substantive.
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****** I apologize for the error. I'm honestly not that familiar with oWoD.
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*** To be fair, I don't think the original poster mentioned anything about the lethality problem or the Dawn Solution. As for the retcons, they're not minimal. Some are pretty darned sweeping to the entire cosmology of the world. Some change the very underpinning of the game to a point where every action your gaming group has ever undertaken now takes on a brand new (and not always flattering) light.
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*** To be fair, I don't think the original poster mentioned anything about the lethality problem or the Dawn Solution. As for the retcons, they're not minimal. Some are pretty darned sweeping to the entire cosmology of the world. Some change the very underpinning of the game to a point where every action your gaming group has ever undertaken now takes on a brand new (and not always flattering) light.light.
*** Voice of the Magnus is another. An in character, probably unreliable narrator who is presented as a completely reliable, omniscient narrator in his subject matter. On top of that, he runs roughshod over almost everything the Solar Caste Books told us (which had some of the best damn first age fiction ever written).
*** Voice of the Magnus is another. An in character, probably unreliable narrator who is presented as a completely reliable, omniscient narrator in his subject matter. On top of that, he runs roughshod over almost everything the Solar Caste Books told us (which had some of the best damn first age fiction ever written).
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Changed line(s) 8 (click to see context) from:
** The retcons are...minimal. For the most part, they've been more flavor than anything resembling contradiction to standing material. On the other hand, the Dawn Solution didn't so much fix the core problem with the combat system (overwhelming and perhaps unintentional lethality, leading to and supported by trivially easy perfect defenses), so much as make it easier for the Exalted to be flashy in their combat and use the unnecessarily overkillish offensive charms without having to use a combo, and be flashy even though they know that it's going to be blocked anyway. To address your central question, though, it boils down to White Wolf (or perhaps CCP) apparently not wanting to invest in a new edition. White Wolf has slowed down production on everything in the last few years, and every game line has paid the price.
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** The retcons are...minimal. For the most part, they've been more flavor than anything resembling contradiction to standing material. On the other hand, the Dawn Solution didn't so much fix the core problem with the combat system (overwhelming and perhaps unintentional lethality, leading to and supported by trivially easy perfect defenses), so much as make it easier for the Exalted to be flashy in their combat and use the unnecessarily overkillish offensive charms without having to use a combo, and be flashy even though they know that it's going to be blocked anyway. To address your central question, though, it boils down to White Wolf (or perhaps CCP) apparently not wanting to invest in a new edition. White Wolf has slowed down production on everything in the last few years, and every game line has paid the price.price.
*** To be fair, I don't think the original poster mentioned anything about the lethality problem or the Dawn Solution. As for the retcons, they're not minimal. Some are pretty darned sweeping to the entire cosmology of the world. Some change the very underpinning of the game to a point where every action your gaming group has ever undertaken now takes on a brand new (and not always flattering) light.
*** To be fair, I don't think the original poster mentioned anything about the lethality problem or the Dawn Solution. As for the retcons, they're not minimal. Some are pretty darned sweeping to the entire cosmology of the world. Some change the very underpinning of the game to a point where every action your gaming group has ever undertaken now takes on a brand new (and not always flattering) light.
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* The Ink Monkeys. They seem to have two modes: retcon fiction and Charms that vastly alter the game (some for the better, some for the worse). On the first hand: why is the developer approving such sweeping retcons to fluff nobody had a problem with? On the Charms they issue, why not just bite the bullet and release a new edition? Their errata is almost longer than the Core rulebook! Just take the good ideas (like Overdrive) and give us a new edition already!
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* The Ink Monkeys. They seem to have two modes: retcon fiction and Charms that vastly alter the game (some for the better, some for the worse). On the first hand: why is the developer approving such sweeping retcons to fluff nobody had a problem with? On the Charms they issue, why not just bite the bullet and release a new edition? Their errata is almost longer than the Core rulebook! Just take the good ideas (like Overdrive) and give us a new edition already!already!
** The retcons are...minimal. For the most part, they've been more flavor than anything resembling contradiction to standing material. On the other hand, the Dawn Solution didn't so much fix the core problem with the combat system (overwhelming and perhaps unintentional lethality, leading to and supported by trivially easy perfect defenses), so much as make it easier for the Exalted to be flashy in their combat and use the unnecessarily overkillish offensive charms without having to use a combo, and be flashy even though they know that it's going to be blocked anyway. To address your central question, though, it boils down to White Wolf (or perhaps CCP) apparently not wanting to invest in a new edition. White Wolf has slowed down production on everything in the last few years, and every game line has paid the price.
** The retcons are...minimal. For the most part, they've been more flavor than anything resembling contradiction to standing material. On the other hand, the Dawn Solution didn't so much fix the core problem with the combat system (overwhelming and perhaps unintentional lethality, leading to and supported by trivially easy perfect defenses), so much as make it easier for the Exalted to be flashy in their combat and use the unnecessarily overkillish offensive charms without having to use a combo, and be flashy even though they know that it's going to be blocked anyway. To address your central question, though, it boils down to White Wolf (or perhaps CCP) apparently not wanting to invest in a new edition. White Wolf has slowed down production on everything in the last few years, and every game line has paid the price.
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***** {{MageTheAscension}}'s Iteration X is (prior to Revised) based in Autochthonia and has robots and cyborgs. There are also {{WerewolfTheApocalypse}}'s drones, which are like fomori, but possessed by weaver spirits instead of wyrm spirits.
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***** {{MageTheAscension}}'s Iteration X is (prior to Revised) based in Autochthonia and has robots and cyborgs. There are also {{WerewolfTheApocalypse}}'s drones, which are like fomori, but possessed by weaver spirits instead of wyrm spirits.spirits.
* The Ink Monkeys. They seem to have two modes: retcon fiction and Charms that vastly alter the game (some for the better, some for the worse). On the first hand: why is the developer approving such sweeping retcons to fluff nobody had a problem with? On the Charms they issue, why not just bite the bullet and release a new edition? Their errata is almost longer than the Core rulebook! Just take the good ideas (like Overdrive) and give us a new edition already!
* The Ink Monkeys. They seem to have two modes: retcon fiction and Charms that vastly alter the game (some for the better, some for the worse). On the first hand: why is the developer approving such sweeping retcons to fluff nobody had a problem with? On the Charms they issue, why not just bite the bullet and release a new edition? Their errata is almost longer than the Core rulebook! Just take the good ideas (like Overdrive) and give us a new edition already!
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possible O Wo D counterparts to alchemicals
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**** Well, the Dragon-blooded are sort of minor Exalted in comparison to the big boys. You could make an admittedly shaky argument that the minor splats(ghouls, sleepwalkers, ensorcelled etc.) are the Dragon-blooded equivalent. They certainly have the same role socially, being a back-up/servant/helper/etc. caste. The only problem with that theory is that minor splats in NWoD are far, far less powerful than major splats, whereas Dragon-blooded are at least competitive with Celestial Exalted.
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**** Well, the Dragon-blooded are sort of minor Exalted in comparison to the big boys. You could make an admittedly shaky argument that the minor splats(ghouls, sleepwalkers, ensorcelled etc.) are the Dragon-blooded equivalent. They certainly have the same role socially, being a back-up/servant/helper/etc. caste. The only problem with that theory is that minor splats in NWoD are far, far less powerful than major splats, whereas Dragon-blooded are at least competitive with Celestial Exalted.Exalted.
*****{{MageTheAscension}}'s Iteration X is (prior to Revised) based in Autochthonia and has robots and cyborgs. There are also {{WerewolfTheApocalypse}}'s drones, which are like fomori, but possessed by weaver spirits instead of wyrm spirits.
*****{{MageTheAscension}}'s Iteration X is (prior to Revised) based in Autochthonia and has robots and cyborgs. There are also {{WerewolfTheApocalypse}}'s drones, which are like fomori, but possessed by weaver spirits instead of wyrm spirits.
