History Headscratchers / DragonridersOfPern

16th Dec '17 3:29:41 PM margdean56
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** It only makes sense if once something is changed only the changed version is remembered (and written). This makes it seem like you can't change the past. If someone thought to use time travel to get reinforcements from the past for a bunch of Weyrs in decline after a long pass, then the timeline would adjust so they were always gone, which is just what happened. When AIVAS was not fooled, used time travel to kill thread off forever regardless of the consequences, the Oort Cloud creatures countered with the plague of Moreta's time. It is either ingenious or McCaffrey never bothered to make it ontologically consistent, just stable.

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** It only makes sense if once something is changed only the changed version is remembered (and written). This makes it seem like you can't change the past. If someone thought to use time travel to get reinforcements from the past for a bunch of Weyrs in decline after a long pass, then the timeline would adjust so they were always gone, which is just what happened. When AIVAS was not fooled, used time travel to kill thread off forever regardless of the consequences, the Oort Cloud creatures countered with the plague of Moreta's time. It is either ingenious or McCaffrey [=McCaffrey=] never bothered to make it ontologically consistent, just stable.



** That being said, one could look for solutions. Depending on your opinion of Todd-- I don't like his work, but it is a theoretical solution-- one could try to get a solution hashed out for debatable levels of canoncity. Regardless of said opinion, it's possible that solution COULD work out as a reasonable or rational one but still not be acceptable to the majority of fans. I know I might have a knee-jerk reaction there, even knowing that I know this. If we're just looking for justifications regardless of canon status, that's a different story.
** One way of looking at it is the old saw of time being an illusion, and that from some perspective in the Pern continuum, all of the events are happening simultaneously. Though the use of the word perceptive is possibly a bad one since there isn't supposed to be a privileged observer position. Maybe there is in the FSPverse! It also raises questions about free will, though there are people who argue that there isn't free will in a linear timeline. I suppose if free will exists at all, it may have a certain similar achronal existence of its own.
** Other possibilities I can think of is that Anne was wrong similar to her change on the sexual orientation thing. Maybe loops are highly stable, but come from recursive reinforcement. IE, an event happens for one reason or another-- a lot of weyrfolk die off, causing their dragons to suicide, or KPY's poor choices on the minimum Gold numbers meant a few bad clutches wiped out the other Weyrs, who concentrated their numbers over time in either case, eventually leaving Benden alone. Lessa makes the trip to fix it, and suddenly the universe's conservation of effort makes THAT the reason why everything happened. No loop begins to collapse until you actually observe something about it. Details may be changed by elements that happen external to the loop, but if they impinge upon the loop, the prior loop is preserved. The problem with THAT is it makes Time into a Fate-like force/entity that forces things to happen. Which, again, there might be a Privileged Observer in this universe.

to:

** That being said, one could look for solutions. Depending on your opinion of Todd-- I Todd--I don't like his work, but it is a theoretical solution-- one solution--one could try to get a solution hashed out for debatable levels of canoncity.canonicity. Regardless of said opinion, it's possible that solution COULD work out as a reasonable or rational one but still not be acceptable to the majority of fans. I know I might have a knee-jerk reaction there, even knowing that I know this. If we're just looking for justifications regardless of canon status, that's a different story.
** One way of looking at it is the old saw of time being an illusion, and that from some perspective in the Pern continuum, all of the events are happening simultaneously. Though the use of the word perceptive perspective is possibly a bad one since there isn't supposed to be a privileged observer position. Maybe there is in the FSPverse! It also raises questions about free will, though there are people who argue that there isn't free will in a linear timeline. I suppose if free will exists at all, it may have a certain similar achronal existence of its own.
** Other possibilities I can think of is that Anne was wrong similar to her change on the sexual orientation thing. Maybe loops are highly stable, but come from recursive reinforcement. IE, I.e., an event happens for one reason or another-- a another--a lot of weyrfolk die off, causing their dragons to suicide, or KPY's poor choices on the minimum Gold numbers meant a few bad clutches wiped out the other Weyrs, who concentrated their numbers over time in either case, eventually leaving Benden alone. Lessa makes the trip to fix it, and suddenly the universe's conservation of effort makes THAT the reason why everything happened. No loop begins to collapse until you actually observe something about it. Details may be changed by elements that happen external to the loop, but if they impinge upon the loop, the prior loop is preserved. The problem with THAT is it makes Time into a Fate-like force/entity that forces things to happen. Which, again, there might be a Privileged Observer in this universe.
16th Dec '17 3:24:51 PM margdean56
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** Along with being experienced, it's mentioned in the second book that the Oldtimers taught the modern Benden Dragonriders quite a lot about dealing with Threads. And on top of THAT, you have to look at Benden Wyr in particular -- it was woefully understaffed, had only 150 or so Dragons (as opposed to the nearly 400 or 500 in the second book, seven years after the Oldtimers came forward), and you have to wonder if they really would be better off. Six weak Wyrs, all with a small number of dragons, without any Thread-fighting experience, weighed against having five experienced and strong Wyrs (1800 dragons!) available right in the nick of time.

to:

** Along with being experienced, it's mentioned in the second book that the Oldtimers taught the modern Benden Dragonriders quite a lot about dealing with Threads. And on top of THAT, you have to look at Benden Wyr Weyr in particular -- it was woefully understaffed, had only 150 or so Dragons (as opposed to the nearly 400 or 500 in the second book, seven years after the Oldtimers came forward), and you have to wonder if they really would be better off. Six weak Wyrs, Weyrs, all with a small number of dragons, without any Thread-fighting experience, weighed against having five experienced and strong Wyrs Weyrs (1800 dragons!) available right in the nick of time.



** It only makes sense if once something is changed only the changed version is remembered (and written). This makes it seem like you can't change the past. If someone thought to use time travel to get reinforcements from the past for a bunch of Wyrs on decline after a long pass, then the timeline would adjust so they were always gone, which is just what happened. When AIVAS was not fooled, used time travel to kill thread off forever regardless of the consequences, the Oort Cloud creatures countered with the plague of Moreta's time. It is either ingenious or McCaffery never bothered to make it ontologically consistent, just stable.

to:

** It only makes sense if once something is changed only the changed version is remembered (and written). This makes it seem like you can't change the past. If someone thought to use time travel to get reinforcements from the past for a bunch of Wyrs on Weyrs in decline after a long pass, then the timeline would adjust so they were always gone, which is just what happened. When AIVAS was not fooled, used time travel to kill thread off forever regardless of the consequences, the Oort Cloud creatures countered with the plague of Moreta's time. It is either ingenious or McCaffery McCaffrey never bothered to make it ontologically consistent, just stable.
15th Dec '17 3:37:11 PM margdean56
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** Not to mention the fact that existing more than once at the same time is very draining and disorienting. "I am too many today." Lessa fainted when there were only three of her, and these riders and dragons had to double back on themselves many more times than that to get everything deliverred at once. They likely wouldn't have been ''able'' to rest effectively in such circumstances.

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** Not to mention the fact that existing more than once at the same time is very draining and disorienting. "I am too many today.on this morning." Lessa fainted when there were only three of her, and these riders and dragons had to double back on themselves many more times than that to get everything deliverred delivered at once. They likely wouldn't have been ''able'' to rest effectively in such circumstances.
25th Jun '17 11:50:38 PM Apolloin
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** Bottleneck is a good word. During intervals (particularly the interval preceding the ninth threadfall) the numbers of Queen dragons decrease and the genetic diversity probably drops sharply. There are also few culling mechanisms for Dragons short of bad between transfers, duels and injuries in the training games. On the approach to a Pass, though, the dragons start mating with increased fervor, clutch sizes rise and the weyrs increase the number of queens. It was also the tradition that weyrs allowed open flights, bringing in fresh bronze blood. This would increase genetic diversity and health and, of course, fighting thread provides an excellent culling mechanism. There have also been some dragon plagues mentioned, which would provide an alternate method of purging draconic bloodlines of less healthy examples.

Nobody is particularly surprised to see Ruth's egg - they aren't shocked at Ruth after he hatches either, they just feel that he is unlikely to survive, and a small egg is seen as being unworthy of impression. It's clear that hybrids have occurred in the past.

to:

** Bottleneck is a good word. During intervals (particularly the interval preceding the ninth threadfall) the numbers of Queen dragons decrease and the genetic diversity probably drops sharply. There are also few culling mechanisms for Dragons short of bad between transfers, duels and injuries in the training games. On the approach to a Pass, though, the dragons start mating with increased fervor, clutch sizes rise and the weyrs increase the number of queens. It was also the tradition that weyrs allowed open flights, bringing in fresh bronze blood. This would increase genetic diversity and health and, of course, fighting thread provides an excellent culling mechanism. There have also been some dragon plagues mentioned, which would provide an alternate method of purging draconic bloodlines of less healthy examples.

examples. Nobody is particularly surprised to see Ruth's egg - they aren't shocked at Ruth after he hatches either, they just feel that he is unlikely to survive, and a small egg is seen as being unworthy of impression. It's clear that hybrids have occurred in the past.
25th Jun '17 11:49:59 PM Apolloin
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to:

** Bottleneck is a good word. During intervals (particularly the interval preceding the ninth threadfall) the numbers of Queen dragons decrease and the genetic diversity probably drops sharply. There are also few culling mechanisms for Dragons short of bad between transfers, duels and injuries in the training games. On the approach to a Pass, though, the dragons start mating with increased fervor, clutch sizes rise and the weyrs increase the number of queens. It was also the tradition that weyrs allowed open flights, bringing in fresh bronze blood. This would increase genetic diversity and health and, of course, fighting thread provides an excellent culling mechanism. There have also been some dragon plagues mentioned, which would provide an alternate method of purging draconic bloodlines of less healthy examples.

Nobody is particularly surprised to see Ruth's egg - they aren't shocked at Ruth after he hatches either, they just feel that he is unlikely to survive, and a small egg is seen as being unworthy of impression. It's clear that hybrids have occurred in the past.
12th Oct '16 1:53:11 PM Whitewings
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** Her trip wasn't that long. A human can survive vacuum exposure without long-term side effects for up to 90 seconds. Lessa, upon her arrival in the Oldtimers' era, is said to be more dead than alive, but shows no evidence of long-term damage such as hearing loss or damaged vision. So the duration of her trip was only about a minute to a minute and a half, though even that was enough to leave both her and Ramoth in terrible condition.
11th Sep '16 1:36:13 PM Durison
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* So it's been established that, under normal circumstances, the time a dragon spends ''Between'' is about three(3) seconds. In ''Dragonflight'', Lessa says it took about twice that long to travel ten(10) years through time. Assuming that pattern holds true, then by my math (450 ÷ 10 = 45, 45 x 6 = 270, 270 ÷ 60 = 4.5) she was in a vacuum for nearly five(5) minutes when she went back 450 years to get the Oldtimers. Given that brain cells begin to die after only one(1) minute without oxygen, how did she survive the trip without incurring serious brain damage?

to:

* So it's been established that, under normal circumstances, the time a dragon spends ''Between'' when teleporting is about three(3) seconds. In ''Dragonflight'', Lessa says it took about twice that long to travel ten(10) years through time. Assuming that pattern holds true, then by my math (450 ÷ 10 = 45, 45 x 6 = 270, 270 ÷ 60 = 4.5) she was in a vacuum for nearly five(5) minutes when she went back 450 years to get the Oldtimers. Given that brain cells begin to die after only one(1) minute without oxygen, how did she survive the trip without incurring serious brain damage?
11th Sep '16 1:35:28 PM Durison
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* So it's been established that, under normal circumstances, the time a dragon spends ''Between'' is about three(6) seconds. In ''Dragonflight'', Lessa says it took about twice that long to travel ten(10) years through time. Assuming that pattern holds true, then by my math (45010=45,456=270,27060=4.5) she was in a vacuum for nearly five(5) minutes when she went back 450 years to get the Oldtimers. Given that brain cells begin to die after only one(1) minute without oxygen, how did she survive the trip without incurring serious brain damage?

to:

* So it's been established that, under normal circumstances, the time a dragon spends ''Between'' is about three(6) three(3) seconds. In ''Dragonflight'', Lessa says it took about twice that long to travel ten(10) years through time. Assuming that pattern holds true, then by my math (45010=45,456=270,27060=4.(450 ÷ 10 = 45, 45 x 6 = 270, 270 ÷ 60 = 4.5) she was in a vacuum for nearly five(5) minutes when she went back 450 years to get the Oldtimers. Given that brain cells begin to die after only one(1) minute without oxygen, how did she survive the trip without incurring serious brain damage?
11th Sep '16 1:30:07 PM Durison
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Added DiffLines:

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[[folder:Lessa's Time Travel]]

* So it's been established that, under normal circumstances, the time a dragon spends ''Between'' is about three(6) seconds. In ''Dragonflight'', Lessa says it took about twice that long to travel ten(10) years through time. Assuming that pattern holds true, then by my math (45010=45,456=270,27060=4.5) she was in a vacuum for nearly five(5) minutes when she went back 450 years to get the Oldtimers. Given that brain cells begin to die after only one(1) minute without oxygen, how did she survive the trip without incurring serious brain damage?
19th Jul '16 12:47:33 PM CaptainPedant
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*** Not judging by ''Dragonflight'' itself -- when Ramoth rises and Mnementh catches her, F'lar takes Lessa in his arms and explains that "We bring them safely home".
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