10 Hours Left to Support a Troper-Created Project : Personal Space (discuss)

History Headscratchers / DragonridersOfPern

6th May '16 2:25:04 AM PaulA
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** It was an expression of his determination to do everything he could to win the mating flight. His dragon used some kind of trick (doubling back somehow? I just remember there was a trick, his dragon turned up somewhere hers didn't expect him & caught her) and when he said the above quote, Torene realized he had planned this with his dragon because he wanted her so much. That doesn't mean it makes sense for him to talk like it was all up to him, but McCaffrey can be a little into the "dominant, pushy male = hot" thing, as demonstrated in many scenes.

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** It was an expression of his determination to do everything he could to win the mating flight. His dragon used some kind of trick (doubling back somehow? I just remember there was a trick, his dragon turned up somewhere hers didn't expect him & caught her) and when he said the above quote, Torene realized he had planned this with his dragon because he wanted her so much. That doesn't mean it makes sense for him to talk like it was all up to him, but McCaffrey [=McCaffrey=] can be a little into the "dominant, pushy male = hot" thing, as demonstrated in many scenes.
11th Mar '16 4:37:15 PM CritterKeeper
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\n** Not to mention the fact that existing more than once at the same time is very draining and disorienting. "I am too many today." Lessa fainted when there were only three of her, and these riders and dragons had to double back on themselves many more times than that to get everything deliverred at once. They likely wouldn't have been ''able'' to rest effectively in such circumstances.
4th Nov '15 2:18:56 PM margdean56
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* In The White Dragon, a dragon dies offscreen, and this is treated as a rare event - Jaxom rushes home (times it, in fact) in order to comfort his foster father, and ex-dragonrider who lost his companion many years before. However, it's established that when ''any'' dragon dies, ''every'' dragon in the world lets out a howl of mourning. By a conservative estimate, there are 1000s of dragonriders in the world at that time, and when a rider dies, his dragon inevitably suicides. Even assuming an average lifespan of 100 years, shouldn't there be a dragon dying every month or so, at least?

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* In The ''The White Dragon, Dragon'', a dragon dies offscreen, and this is treated as a rare event - -- Jaxom rushes home (times it, in fact) in order to comfort his foster father, and an ex-dragonrider who lost his companion many years before. However, it's established that when ''any'' dragon dies, ''every'' dragon in the world lets out a howl of mourning. By a conservative estimate, there are 1000s thousands of dragonriders in the world at that time, and when a rider dies, his dragon inevitably suicides. Even assuming an average lifespan of 100 years, shouldn't there be a dragon dying every month or so, at least?



** While Half Circle ''is'' shown as more sexist than the Harper Hall, there were quite a few people in the Hall who very much gave a crap about Menolly. A journeyman condescendingly tells her she's "obviously" supposed to be with the other girls, who are students rather than apprentices. Dunca, the dorm mother for the female students, hates Menolly for several reasons; one of which is her talent being developed under Petiron. One of the music teachers flat out told her it was a waste of time to educate women to be Harpers. Benis, Lord Groghe's son, accuses her of theft and tries to take her money away at the fair. Et cetera, et cetera. Basically, the entirety of ''Dragonsinger'' '''was''' people arguing back and forth about whether Menolly should be a Harper.

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** While Half Circle ''is'' shown as more sexist than the Harper Hall, there were quite a few people in the Hall who very much gave a crap about Menolly. A journeyman condescendingly tells her she's "obviously" supposed to be with the other girls, who are students rather than apprentices. Dunca, the dorm mother for the female students, hates Menolly for several reasons; one of which is her talent being developed under Petiron. One of the music teachers flat out flat-out told her it was a waste of time to educate women to be Harpers. Benis, Lord Groghe's son, accuses her of theft and tries to take her money away at the fair. Et cetera, et cetera. Basically, the entirety of ''Dragonsinger'' '''was''' people arguing back and forth about whether Menolly should be a Harper.
4th Nov '15 2:15:12 PM margdean56
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* The sex/mating flight scene in ''The Skies of Pern'' bugs me. It's abundantly clear that Tai is ''afraid'' of the impending sexual encounter, and that her other mating flight experiences have been tantamount to ''rape''. F'lessan thinks this is absolutely terrible, but the most helpful response he can come up with is to urge her over and over to "choose" him (even though she's never though of him "that way" before and she's terrified) so that her experience with him will not be rape. (It's not even clear whether she does so, but it turns out afterward that everything's magically okay and she had a wonderful time.) Can't he give her her freedom, instead? Get out of range, lock himself in a room and slide the key to her under the door? He doesn't even consider how he might achieve this and so the scene is not believable as some kind of redemption. A bounded choice isn't a real choice.
** He didn’t have much choice. He was the only rider in the area and his dragon was going to mate with her dragon no matter what. They were going to have sex no matter what. His mind was already overwhelmed with dragon mating urges and it was hard for him to think clearly – to consider, like you said, locking himself up – he had to fight to stay human. Maybe he simply didn’t think about it because in the Weyr "The dragon decides, the rider complies”. All he is doing is urging her to accept the inevitable and to try to find pleasure in it. She would have to face this problem anyway, because Zaranth would continue to rise. I also think that it was stated that if riders don’t have sex something bad may happen to their dragons. I agree that the scene in itself is not handled very well. Tai should be still traumatized and it should take much more time and effort to help her, but these are “Dragobriders of Pern” where a good sex tends to magically solve emotional problems.

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* The sex/mating flight scene in ''The Skies of Pern'' bugs me. It's abundantly clear that Tai is ''afraid'' of the impending sexual encounter, and that her other mating flight experiences have been tantamount to ''rape''. F'lessan thinks this is absolutely terrible, but the most helpful response he can come up with is to urge her over and over to "choose" him (even though she's never though thought of him "that way" before and she's terrified) so that her experience with him will not be rape. (It's not even clear whether she does so, but it turns out afterward that everything's magically okay and she had a wonderful time.) Can't he give her her freedom, instead? Get out of range, lock himself in a room and slide the key to her under the door? He doesn't even consider how he might achieve this and so the scene is not believable as some kind of redemption. A bounded choice isn't a real choice.
** He didn’t have much choice. He was the only rider in the area and his dragon was going to mate with her dragon no matter what. They were going to have sex no matter what. His mind was already overwhelmed with dragon mating urges and it was hard for him to think clearly -- to consider, like you said, locking himself up -- he had to fight to stay human. Maybe he simply didn’t think about it because in the Weyr "The dragon decides, the rider complies”. All he is doing is urging her to accept the inevitable and to try to find pleasure in it. She would have to face this problem anyway, because Zaranth would continue to rise. I also think that it was stated that if riders don’t have sex something bad may happen to their dragons. I agree that the scene in itself is not handled very well. Tai should be still traumatized and it should take much more time and effort to help her, but these are “Dragobriders “Dragonriders of Pern” where a good sex tends to magically solve emotional problems.
4th Nov '15 2:10:17 PM margdean56
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* My question is why all the dragons aren't suffering from major physical and mental deformities from serious inbreeding. During the 400 turns after the Weyrs disappear, Benden Weyr is eventually reduced to a single queen. When a single queen breeds with a limited selection of bronzes(sometimes only one lik ramoth with mnementh), it greatly decreases the variability of the gene pool. So why aren't dragons suffering from some major genetic diseases?
** The simple answer would seem to be that Kitti Ping zapped such potential genetic landmines out of the dragons when she designed the original batch. And lacking the evolutionary pressures to induce mutations (and sports like Ruth usually dieing un-hatched), a limited gene pool wouldn't hurt the dragons much.

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* My question is why all the dragons aren't suffering from major physical and mental deformities from serious inbreeding. During the 400 turns after the Weyrs disappear, Benden Weyr is eventually reduced to a single queen. When a single queen breeds with a limited selection of bronzes(sometimes bronzes (sometimes only one lik ramoth like Ramoth with mnementh), Mnementh), it greatly decreases the variability of the gene pool. So why aren't dragons suffering from some major genetic diseases?
** The simple answer would seem to be that Kitti Ping zapped such potential genetic landmines out of the dragons when she designed the original batch. And lacking the evolutionary pressures to induce mutations (and sports like Ruth usually dieing dying un-hatched), a limited gene pool wouldn't hurt the dragons much.



** And we also learn in Dragonblood that due to the way dragon DNA is structured it is much much harder for it to randomly mutate, which further helps keep the gene pool free of the normal side effects of inbreeding. Though the book does show one of the disadvantages in not having a more genetically diverse group, since one disease almost wiped out the entire dragon race until a way was found to alter the dragons genetics to make them immune.

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** And we also learn in Dragonblood that due to the way dragon DNA is structured it is much much, much harder for it to randomly mutate, which further helps keep the gene pool free of the normal side effects of inbreeding. Though the book does show one of the disadvantages in not having a more genetically diverse group, since one disease almost wiped out the entire dragon race until a way was found to alter the dragons dragons' genetics to make them immune.



** Kitty Pang actually included precautions against harmful mutations in the genetic code. a) they rarely hatch if there has been mutation b) they end up like Ruth. There have been mutations, though. Originally, there was a genetic limit to the size of dragons keeping them to the size of Oldtimer dragons. With Ramoth and Mnementh, mutation had removed that restriction, resulting in far lerger dragons.

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** Kitty Pang Kitti Ping actually included precautions against harmful mutations in the genetic code. code: a) they rarely hatch if there has been mutation b) they end up like Ruth. There have been mutations, though. Originally, there was a genetic limit to the size of dragons keeping them to the size of Oldtimer dragons. With Ramoth and Mnementh, mutation had removed that restriction, resulting in far lerger larger dragons.
2nd Nov '15 3:46:09 PM margdean56
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** [[WildMassGuess A longer flight results in the male having more time to fertilize a larger amount of eggs?]]
** It was said that it's the wole flight, not particulary fertilizing part, that should be long to get a good cluth. It was more along the lines "the futher and higher queen will rise."

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** [[WildMassGuess A longer flight results in the male having more time to fertilize a larger amount number of eggs?]]
** It was said that it's the wole whole flight, not particulary particularly the fertilizing part, that should be long to get a good cluth. clutch. It was more along the lines "the futher further and higher the queen will rise."



** actually, No. in Chronicles of the First Fall, a mating flight was abnormally low due to it being the first one ( the female dragon had overeaten before the flight) and it produced few eggs, to the point that dragons would not have been able to sustain fighting Threadfall. The same dragon flying properly produced a much larger clutch. So it IS the length of time the flight lasts that is important. Best guess is that each egg is fertilised sequentially, not simultaneously.

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** actually, No. in Actually, no. In Chronicles of the First Fall, a mating flight was abnormally low due to it being the first one ( the (the female dragon had overeaten before the flight) and it produced few eggs, to the point that dragons would not have been able to sustain fighting Threadfall. The same dragon flying properly produced a much larger clutch. So it IS the length of time the flight lasts that is important. Best guess is that each egg is fertilised sequentially, not simultaneously.
2nd Nov '15 3:40:59 PM margdean56
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** Yup, and one of the biologists who came on the original expedition actually thought it was a better solution than having the anus and sex organs so close. (Also, a threadscored tail wouldn't be a death sentence- they store the dung until they defecate Between. the hole is just that- a hole.Threadscoring severe enouhg to be an issue would be enouhg to kill the dragon from the severity

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** Yup, and one of the biologists who came on the original expedition actually thought it was a better solution than having the anus and sex organs so close. (Also, a threadscored tail wouldn't be a death sentence- they sentence--they store the dung until they defecate Between. the The hole is just that- a hole.that--a hole. Threadscoring severe enouhg enough to be an issue would be enouhg enough to kill the dragon from the severity
severity.
2nd Nov '15 3:35:54 PM margdean56
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* Why does Jaxom constantly {{Wangst}} about Ruth's sterility/{{Asexuality}} in ''The White Dragon''? Wouldn't Ruth mating with a green (and consequently, Jaxom sleeping with the green's rider) put him in a bad position with the other, sexually conservative Lord Holders, never mind the fact that Jaxom is heterosexual? Surely it would add fuel to the argument that Ruth belongs in a Weyr? To me, it always looked like Ruth saved him a major headache. It's not as if it's an issues of continuing Ruth's bloodline, since only the bronzes have any hope of siring baby dragons.

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* Why does Jaxom constantly {{Wangst}} about Ruth's sterility/{{Asexuality}} in ''The White Dragon''? Wouldn't Ruth mating with a green (and consequently, Jaxom sleeping with the green's rider) put him in a bad position with the other, sexually conservative Lord Holders, never mind the fact that Jaxom is heterosexual? Surely it would add fuel to the argument that Ruth belongs in a Weyr? To me, it always looked like Ruth saved him a major headache. It's not as if it's an issues issue of continuing Ruth's bloodline, since only the bronzes have any hope of siring baby dragons.



** This Troper agrees with both comments above this one. Not to mention, Ruth's asexuality was MEANT to underline his difference from the other dragons. Makes sense considering that he's a mix of all colors... which means of both genders. Jaxom's insecurities, of course, only leads even more to point just how much of a Gary-Sue he actually is in the books.
** It could be because Jaxom was fed up with being different. He's one of the last Ruathans left, the son of Fax, who is always being stared at and isolated. He went against tradition and Impressed a unique dragon who everyone thought would die, and whom people thought might not be a proper dragon. And then he ends up with the tiny Ruth, who's pretty much asexual. It's hammering in the point that Jaxom's pretty much a freak among Holders and riders alike.

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** This Troper agrees with both comments above this one. Not to mention, Ruth's asexuality was MEANT to underline his difference from the other dragons. Makes sense considering that he's a mix of all colors... which means of both genders. Jaxom's insecurities, insecurity, of course, only leads even more to point just how much of a Gary-Sue GaryStu he actually is in the books.
** It could be because Jaxom was fed up with being different. He's one of the last Ruathans left, the son of Fax, who is always being stared at and isolated. He went against tradition and Impressed a unique dragon who everyone thought would die, and whom who people thought might not be a proper dragon. And then he ends up with the tiny Ruth, who's pretty much asexual. It's hammering in the point that Jaxom's pretty much a freak among Holders and riders alike.



** If I remember the book correctly, It was less about mating specifically, and more about how Jaxom felt he wasn't truly a Rider or a Lord Holder (Jaxom's position as Lord Holder was insecure, since the other Lord Holders weren't keen on having a Rider as Lord Holder. Jaxom was excluded from almost all the Weyer did as well, so he felt disconnected from the Riders too. Jaxom wanted Ruth to rise as proof Ruth could do anything the larger dragons could. Which also explains why Jaxom largely stopped once he remembered almost all Green Riders were male (Remember the only Green Rider Jaxom really knows is Mirrim.)

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** If I remember the book correctly, It was less about mating specifically, and more about how Jaxom felt he wasn't truly a Rider or a Lord Holder (Jaxom's position as Lord Holder was insecure, since the other Lord Holders weren't keen on having a Rider as Lord Holder. Jaxom was excluded from almost all the Weyer Weyr did as well, so he felt disconnected from the Riders too. Jaxom wanted Ruth to rise as proof Ruth could do anything the larger dragons could. Which also explains why Jaxom largely stopped once he remembered almost all Green Riders were male (Remember the only Green Rider Jaxom really knows is Mirrim.)
2nd Nov '15 3:30:51 PM margdean56
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** As has been said, Lessa was living in a world where the dragonriders had already gone forward. Also, at the time she would have had no way of knowing how the Oldtimers acted; they only became JerkAsses after they came forward and had to deal with tyhe changes that resulted from the Long Interval. (Witness the Oldtimer who tried to requisition a specific knife being made for somebody. I imagine that was soemwhat tolerated towards the end of the 8th Pass due to the fact that the Crafter and Lord Holder involved would have grown up under the threat of Thread; during the 9th Pass, people saw it as the jerk move it was (The Crafter in question actually offered to make a similar knife for the rider, but that was refused, even though it would have resulted in both getting what they wanted--the rider wanted the knife because of its workmanship).)
** Two of the most important things that the Oldtimers brought with them was their expertise in fighting Thread, and their Records. The latter is arguably more important, because if they'd been left behind, the Records could well have moldered and rendered illegible, like most of Benden Weyr's Records. That's the reason why F'lar went looking for Records in the abandoned Weyrs, he was hoping to gather all the information he could on Thread fighting (as well as solving the mystery of where the Weyrs went). If Fort ''et al'' had stayed behind, they likely would have fallen into complacency like Benden Weyr before F'lar too over, and the Dragonriders, along with Pern, would have been doomed.

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** As has been said, Lessa was living in a world where the dragonriders had already gone forward. Also, at the time she would have had no way of knowing how the Oldtimers acted; they only became JerkAsses {{Jerk Ass}}es after they came forward and had to deal with tyhe the changes that resulted from the Long Interval. (Witness the Oldtimer who tried to requisition a specific knife being made for somebody. I imagine that was soemwhat somewhat tolerated towards the end of the 8th Pass due to the fact that the Crafter and Lord Holder involved would have grown up under the threat of Thread; during the 9th Pass, people saw it as the jerk move it was (The Crafter in question actually offered to make a similar knife for the rider, but that was refused, even though it would have resulted in both getting what they wanted--the rider wanted the knife because of its workmanship).)
** Two of the most important things that the Oldtimers brought with them was their expertise in fighting Thread, and their Records. The latter is arguably more important, because if they'd been left behind, the Records could well have moldered and been rendered illegible, like most of Benden Weyr's Records. That's the reason why F'lar went looking for Records in the abandoned Weyrs, he was hoping to gather all the information he could on Thread fighting (as well as solving the mystery of where the Weyrs went). If Fort ''et al'' had stayed behind, they likely would have fallen into complacency like Benden Weyr before F'lar too took over, and the Dragonriders, along with Pern, would have been doomed.
2nd Nov '15 3:27:27 PM margdean56
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** But sooner or later, all that built up loss of energy is going to take its toll right? This Troper believes that it's because of Thread. All that ash and dead Thread that escaped from the Red Star into Pern probably helped to balance out the energy toll in some way or another... This might explain why the Red Star is so barren, come to think of it.

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** But sooner or later, all that built up built-up loss of energy is going to take its toll toll, right? This Troper believes that it's because of Thread. All that ash and dead Thread that escaped from the Red Star into Pern probably helped to balance out the energy toll in some way or another... This might explain why the Red Star is so barren, come to think of it.



** It's not hard to calculate out. Assuming a dragon has a comparable length:weight ratio to a terrestrial bird, a 20 meter green would weigh close to 50 tons (This isn't a perfectly reasonable calculation, but it is a decent point to start). Carbon in a living organic creature tends to run at about 20%. This would mean each green dragon (the vast majority) takes 10 tons of carbon out of the biosphere. Meanwhile, Earth's atmosphere contains about 720 gigatons of carbon, the soil 2000, and the oceans 38,400 gigantons more for a total of 40,900 gigatons. Assuming that the biosphere will be damaged by losing just 1% of it's carbon, and that the red star adds nothing via thread, that still 40,900,000,000 green dragons that have to die before the issue arises. It will take at least hundreds of thousands of years, possibly millions, before the issue raises it's head even at the 1% level. With less conservative estimates, it will take more time for the dragons to screw up their biosphere than Earth has seen since the last dinosaurs died.
** In Dragondrums, Piemur notices that huge schools of fish come to surface after Threadfall to eat drowned Thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the ashes from burning it made really good ''plant'' food, so it probably ''does'' makes up really well for the dragons going ''between'' to die.

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** It's not hard to calculate out. Assuming a dragon has a comparable length:weight ratio to a terrestrial bird, a 20 meter green would weigh close to 50 tons (This isn't a perfectly reasonable calculation, but it is a decent point to start). Carbon in a living organic creature tends to run at about 20%. This would mean each green dragon (the vast majority) takes 10 tons of carbon out of the biosphere. Meanwhile, Earth's atmosphere contains about 720 gigatons of carbon, the soil 2000, and the oceans 38,400 gigantons gigatons more for a total of 40,900 gigatons. Assuming that the biosphere will be damaged by losing just 1% of it's its carbon, and that the red star Red Star adds nothing via thread, Thread, that still 40,900,000,000 green dragons that have to die before the issue arises. It will take at least hundreds of thousands of years, possibly millions, before the issue raises it's its head even at the 1% level. With less conservative estimates, it will take more time for the dragons to screw up their biosphere than Earth has seen since the last dinosaurs died.
** In Dragondrums, Piemur notices that huge schools of fish come to surface after Threadfall to eat drowned Thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the ashes from burning it made really good ''plant'' food, so it probably ''does'' makes make up really well for the dragons going ''between'' to die.



** On the other hand, as Mike pointed out in "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", there is a world of difference (pun intended) between the mass of a planet and the portion of that mass that is involved in the life cycle. It's not just the dragons themselves - according to the Dragonlover's Guide, they also excrete wastes ''between'', and 3000 dragons at a time for 2500 years adds up to a big pile of...well, you know what I mean.

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** On the other hand, as Mike pointed out in "The ''The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", Mistress'', there is a world of difference (pun intended) between the mass of a planet and the portion of that mass that is involved in the life cycle. It's not just the dragons themselves - according to the Dragonlover's Guide, they also excrete wastes ''between'', and 3000 dragons at a time for 2500 years adds up to a big pile of...well, you know what I mean.
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