History Headscratchers / DragonAgeII

** But most of those good mages/ Templars are painfully absent from the endgame, which make a case of GreyAndGreyMorality into one of BlackAndBlackMorality.

** I was personally creeped out five seconds after the first time you see him. "What was that blue thiiinnggg... Oh no Anders you DIDN'T." And I kept searching for the option to say 'Thanks for the map, Now goodbye and never contact us again.". Alas it was not present. Anyway, it could mean Anders loves you no matter what you say/do. Kinda similar to how easy it was to trigger Alistair's romance in Origins. Still a plot hole when you've been a jerk with him since day one.

** If Elthina truely believed that Meredith had gone so far that she'd disobey a direct order and that a significant number of Templars would follow her lead then she should have asked the Seekers to sort the situation out. So she's incompetant either way. That is one of their main duties. And as I keep saying, even if Elthina doesn't believe in the abuse of mages she most certainly knows that Meredith is illegally holding power over the city.

* Carver/Bethany's kidnapping during this quest makes no sense if they Grey Wardens. First of all: the Warden Keep is in another city. Hawke visits two secret meetings and is then informed by Keran that his/her sibling was kidnapped. By the way Keran tells you about this we can presume the deed was done some time ago. It couldn't be more than a day to two between both meetings, yet conspirators somehow managed to formulate a plan, go to another city, kidnap your sibling and drag them to Kirkwall. Secondly, don't Wardens have any sort of security in their Keep? Can anyone just walk in? "Best Served Cold" can happen after player did the ''Legacy'' DLC, which means the Keep was already attacked once, because of your sibling. You think they would be more careful after this incident. Aveline is already in Kirkwall so she is more "available;" she is also the Guard-Captain by this point. Don't any of her co-workers or her own husband realize she is missing? If they do why they are not looking for her? Either way kidnapping any of these three people (Carver, Bethany, Aveline) is rather stupid move. Thrask would not only have Hawke on his tail, but also the City Guard/Grey Wardens.

** Even if it didn't, we've seen Bioware's Dragon Age team has no qualms about ignoring your kills in service of the story.

** Okay incoming wall of text, so I'm sectioning it off in numbers. Bear with me here. 1) Actually, the Qunari do have a treaty with the lands of Thedas. Sten and Alistair even discuss it in party banter in DA:O. It's why they're not attacking them at the moment. Whether or not it includes extradition is not discussed, but that's not the point - she stole a priceless relic of the Qunari, knew they wanted it back, and instead of just *giving* it to them she led them on a goose chase that ended with the deaths of hundreds. Legally she may not be responsible (and that's arguable), but morally that's exactly what happened, and that makes her culpable. 2) Regardless of who the theft was from, she ''knew'' the Qunari had to come find it. She knew it was a Qunari relic of massive importance. She acquired it in Orlais, but there was no question of who she stole it from. 3) I'd feel a lot better about her "survival instinct" if she wasn't knowingly dooming hundreds of innocent people to death and warfare because of it, which is precisely what she knew she was doing. She could've gotten the the tome, got it to Hawke, they went to the Arishok, and once Hawke was told that the Tome of Koslun AND Isabela would have to be taken, he could've fought the Arishok then. But, instead, she caused a war. Hence my problem. 4) The comparisons to Hawke and Fenris don't really apply; almost every death if not ''every'' death Hawke is responsible for was either in self-defense or defending someone else (and you can choose how that goes down), and pretty much all of those people are ''horrible'' (except maybe Thrask, but then you don't have to kill him). And Fenris was an escaped slave suffering from MoreThanMindControl and hadn't thrown off the slave mentality when he killed the Fog Warriors. Theirs is excusable, Isabela's is pure cowardice. 5) Why ''does'' that occur if you let the Arishok have Isabela? I was cool with killing him for what he did - he certainly earned it - but if you give him Isabela, Hawke lets him ''walk.'' And I ''don't understand that.'' I'd really like to know the rationale behind that one, because I don't get it.

** Ok, I'm going to dispute the points, because I'm enjoying the debate, but beforehand I'm going to say that I agree that it is YMMV situation and I bare you no ill will for merely holding a different opinion regarding a fictional dilemma. So 1)I agree that she has a moral responsibility but I don't think that handing her over to the Qunari is a fair punishment for what she did. 2)Actually no. Her story makes it fairly clear that, while she knew it was a Qunari relic when she stole it, she had no idea how important it was to them. She was just given the order "Steal this relic before it's sold to the Qunari." She could be lying about that of course but given that even when she's 'fessing up she's still puzzled as to why the Qunari care so much I'm inclined to believe her. 3) The thing here is that she's not just at risk from the Qunari. If it was only the Arishok after her I think by that point an Isabela high enough on relationship values to decide to come back later would be willing to go with Hawke and trust him to protect her if the Arishok demanded to take her. However if she did that she'd still be being hunted by the people who hired her, so her life would still be in constant deadly danger. Which is what happens if you spare her; only Hawke's later help sorts that. So again, few people are really willing to actually die for others. 4)Yes, Fenris and Hawke have excuses but they still did it. Fenris might have been badly mentally beaten down but he was still a free willed individual. He could have said no, he didn't. Isabela is facing her death. That may be cowardice but it is a cowardice most of us would suffer from. If I knew hundreds would die and I could save them by dying myself I'm aware the moral choice is to die but I can't honestly say with any certainty that I could actually do that. 5) Well, the real reason is of course "Because that's how it's written" but in universe it's more of a philosophical issue with the Qunari. After all they seem incapable of initiative with the Arishok; with him dead they can't take any action but retreat, including taking Isabela. Just a WMG really but it fits.

** You mean she don't want to give up on someone she cast out of/quit the clan because of her blood magic? That same someone who made a deal with a demon to repair a killer mirror? God, is anyone sane in Kirkwall besides Aveline, Varric, and the Hawkes?

** Well, it's not like Cullen is frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die. He's just a little too hardline to fit in with the Fereldan Circle anymore. By Kirkwall standards he's actualy vaguely moderate, as noted by the fact that he apparently refuses to stay with the Templars when the war starts (since he's with the PC in ''Inquisition''). As for why the Arishok didn't find our 'Bela I'd say 1: She's actively hiding from him whereas other things he finds out about aren't, 2: He's got good scouts but no contact at all with Kirkwall's underground nor any real way to make such contacts, whereas Castillon has plenty of underworld contacts and 3: He actually misses rather a lot, everything Patrice does for a start.

** But an '''Origins' epilogue says "The young Templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered.". I think ''that'' count as frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die.
** That is one possibility and only one. I never saw that option myself. Plus WordOfGod is that a number of the epilogues were more what ''might'' happen rather than hard fact. After all, epilogues from ''Awakening'' regarding Anders are all wrong.

** I think you're underestimating travel time. Hawke and co have to get Gwaren from Lothering, which is half the breath of Ferelden, wait for a ship to be available in a country at war, then sail from there to Kirkwall, which is over the entire length of Fereldan plus the Waking Sea. All Anders has to do is cross the Sea. Plus we don't have an exact timescale on ''Origins'', just "less than a year." And ''Awakening'' happened a month or less after the Battle of Denerim and the Warden left very quickly afterwards.
** Doesn't ''Awakening happen six months after the end of ''Origins''?

** The Qunari have a use for everyone and, given their hatred for magic, the only use they have for mages is attack dogs. So naturally they are going to teach them a lot of combat magic. That's likely the only area of magic they have any skill in mind you. And frankly they are not all that powerful. A decent combat mage from another race can do everything we see the Saarabas do. As for why they're in Kirkwall the Qunari in Kirkwall are the Arishok's personal troops. Stands to reason the leader of the Qunari military would have a few Saarabas around for if he needs them.
** It's not that they're powerful and more that all of the other mages in the game other than Arcane Horrors have terrible AI. Every other mage's tactics seems to be to do nothing but cast force field on themselves until all of their allies are dead before actually attacking, so players can just ignore them until they've killed everyone else. Saarabas and Arcane Horrors on the other hand will nuke your party on sight, which makes it a priority to take them out first.

[[folder:Kidnapping Hawke's sibling even though there a Grey Warden]]
* What made Thrask think kidnapping Carver/Bethany would be a good idea? Templers have no authority over Wardens so he could have gotten in serious trouble for both messing with their Order and kidnapping period. Also, kidnapping the sibling of a very popular and influential residence of a city you're operating in would not have exactly done well to endear Thrask or his cause in the eyes of the people if word got out.
** As noted in a similar [=WMG=] further up Grace (who is only interested in her misplaced vengeance on Hawke) has had years to mess with Thrask's head and get him to make stupid decisions. Likely such head-messing wasn't purely mundane persuasion either, given as she is a committed Blood Mage.

* Why was Hawke the only one who got recognition for saving Kirkwall? If Isabella returned with the tome than Kirwall's safety would be secured because of her and/or if Hawke refused the Arishok's challenge then s/he along with (potentially) Isabella and whichever three companions you brought will kill him and every other Qunari together, but Hawke is the only one credited, named Champion and talked up as a hero?
** As far as Isabella goes her actions led (albeit unintentionally) to the attack in the first place and she's a pirate. It's highly unlikely the people will feel much gratitude to her. Beyond that Hawke is the leader of his/her group so actions undertaken by all of them reflect on him/her. That's not to say his/her companions aren't going to get talked up as well but the man/woman in charge is bound to get the lion's share of the credit.
** Aside from Hawke being the face of the party, none of their companions would want the extra attention that being Champion would bring. Anders and Merril are the exact kinds of apostates that Templars use to justify the existence of their order, so in addition to the extra danger to their lives he wouldn't be able to run his clinic and she wouldn't be able to work on the Eluvian. Fenris is pretty determined throughout all three acts to keep his head low to stay off Danarius's radar, which has caused trouble for Aveline at points. Sebastian's efforts to retake Starkhaven would be severely damaged by being the Champion of a different city-state and the duties of the Champion would interfere with his duties as a brother. Isabella wouldn't be able to drink and whore around on her own terms if she was stuck with the responsibilities of Champion. Varric outright states that he prefers to be the sidekick instead of the hero. Aveline is vocal about her disdain for the nobility, and she has to deal with them enough as part of the guard, especially if she is the Guard-Captain. Every one of Hawke's companions has reason to try to downplay their own contribution in favor of pushing all the attention onto Hawke.
[[/folder]]

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** Anders's case is partially justified, even if there's no way in hell Awakening!Anders would merge with Justice, if so because Justice kept bringing the subject of mage's plight and Anders didn't want to take an active part on it. He was perfectly fine with "the right to shoot lightning, good food and a pretty lady" (quoted from memory)

** We do see--or at least hear about--responsible apostates. There's the Mage Warden and Mage Hawke if you go that route, as well as Malcolm Hawke and Bethany. You could argue that Warden mages like Fiona count, since they're not under Chantry oversight. Mage Hawke in particular can, if you play them that way, be living proof that apostate != maleficar, right up to the point where their companion blows up the Kirkwall Chantry.

* There are many times this comes up in the game, but none so glaringly obvious as the first quest to recruit Anders. In game, most people IN the Templars are subject to freaking out over anyone daring to look at a Templar the wrong way, much less be a mage. As mage!Hawke, you help a known apostate, as well as being an apostate yourself, go into the Templar base and slaughter a group of ten or twenty of them in the middle of the night. Then you bound off and later in the same goddamn act, directly following it if you plan your events, the Templars are asking for your help again. Their Commander even personally asks for your assistance! I could take it as 'It was the middle of the night, no one knew who killed them', but Karl even says "You we're always too predictable Anders" and then has set an ambush for him. Since he is Tranquil, this plot seems to have bee run by a few guys in setting up the plan and it had to have just been a calculated plan of attack, not an emotional reaction to a friend dropping in. You kill a hell of a lot of criminals but even Templars who are criminals are protected no matter what they do wrong, as seen by Samson, Cullen and Alrik. So even if they were all child-molestic dog murderers, they'd have to be protected to the full extent of the law. If a cop dies in the US, it doesn't matter if he verbal abused orphans for fun, he's still a cop and the state will skin you alive for killing one of their own. Why does slaughtering Templars willy-nilly have no repercussions?

** Merrill was absolutely successfully seduced by the demon. If Hawke hadn't been there to help her out and convince her to turn away from the path of blood magic she ''would'' have eventually been possessed and become a Pride Abomination. And I don't think the game makes that clear at all. If anything it seems to say exactly the opposite, that the Keeper's sacrifice was exactly what saved Merrill from being possessed. It trapped the demon in a form that could be easily killed. Without her there, Merrill would have been possessed instead. Best case scenario, Hawke and co. have to murder her. Worst case scenario, Abomination!Merrill escapes the cave and goes on a devastating rampage across Thedas. All because Merrill thought her "pure intentions" would keep her safe.

** Demons can and do take the unwilling. Fooling a mage or tormenting them into "agreeing" makes things much easier, but they can still take a body without approval. Merrill clearly anticipated the possibility that she would be possessed or at least attacked, which is why she asked Hawke and the others to come with her, but her plan was still pointlessly risky. As shown before, Merrill is vulnerable to the manipulations of pride demons thanks to her overconfidence in her knowledge. Marethari knew it was very likely that her apprentice (and surrogate daughter) has a great chance of either being possessed or killed either then or alone when the demon crosses through the repaired mirror while she was alone and unprotected. Marethari eliminated that risk and acted as an example of what was Merrill was really risking all this time by letting the demon take her.

* Possibly I missed something because I've never been able to bring myself to kill Feynriel in 'Night Terrors', but: Marethari mentions that killing Feynriel in the Fade will make him Tranquil. Anders is protected by Justice and if mage!Hawke dies the game boots up an old save, fine, makes sense. But you can fight and kill Merrill--a fellow mage--during her temptation scene, and she just gets kicked out of the Fade and is no worse for wear. Is Feynriel a special case?

[[folder: Warden!Sibling/Aveline during "Best Served Cold"]]

** Except that Cullen ''was'' frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die. First when you meet him in the second-to-last floor of the tower of Magi and when you bring Irving back. When Greagoir says that he's glad to see the First Enchanter back, Cullen say something like "but he's a blood mage! Every mage is or will be, we must KillThemAll." Which ''is'' a fitting attitude for endgame!Meredith but not before. He ''was'' tortured horribly but that meant he should be treated as a victim and healed, not just promoted somewhere else.

* Why was Hawke the only one who go recognition for saving Kirwall? If Isabella returned with the tome then Kirwall's safety would be secured because of her and/or if Hawke refused the Arishok's challenge then s/he along with (potentially) Isabella and whichever three companions you brought will kill him and every other Qunari together, but Hawke is the only one credited, named Champion and talked up as a hero?

* Why is Hawke the only one who got any recognition and for saving Kirwall? If Isabella returns with the tome then Kirwall's safety would be secured because of her and/or if Hawke refuses the Arishok's challenge then he/she along with (potentially) Isabella and whatever three companions you brought will kill him and every other Qunari together, but Hawke is the only one credited, named Champion and talked about as a nation wide hero?

* Why is Hawke the only one who got any recognition for saving Kirwall? If Isabella returns with the tome then Kirwall's safety would be secured because of her and/or if Hawke refuses the Arishok's challenge then he/she along with (potentially) Isabella and whatever three companions you brought will kill him and every other Qunari together, but Hawke is the only one credited and named Champion?

* Why is Hawke the only one who got any recognition for saving Kirwall? If Isabella returns with the tome then Kirwall's safety would be secured because of her and/or if Hawke refuses the Arishok's challenge then he/she along with (potentially) Isabella and whatever three companions you brought will kill him and every other Qunari present together yet Hawke is the only one who is credited and becomes Champion?

* What made Thrask think kidnapping Carver/Bethany would be a good idea? Templers have no authority over Wardens so he could have gotten in serious trouble for both overstepping his authority and kidnapping period. Also, kidnapping the sibling of a very popular and influential residence of a city you're operating in would not have exactly done well to endear Thrask or his cause in the eyes of the people if word got out.

* During On the Loose Hawke can refuse to help Meredith and in turn she will blackmail you into it for either being an apostate, having an apostate sister in the Circle or being in company with one. What reason does a Warrior/Rogue Hawke who's sister is either dead or in the Grey Wardens and broke off contact with Anders three years prior have to change there minds, because going by how Meredith doesn't bring up Merrill and Karen refer to her as a "Dalish woman" instead of a mage if kidnapped its safe to assume her being a mage is a secret?

[[/folder:I will force no mage back under your yoke... wait I will despite you having no leverage over me.]]

** I was personally creeped out five seconds after the first time you see him. "What was that blue thiiinnggg... On no Anders you DIDN'T;" And I kept searching for the option to say 'Thanks for the map, Now goodbye and never contact us again.". Alas it was not present. Anyway, it could mean Anders loves you no matter what you say/do. Kinda similar to how easy it was to trigger Alistair's romance in Origins. Still a plot hole when you've been a jerk with him since day one.

** If you were playing a Hawke that could not kill Anders, but would have let another, can't you understand Sebastian's feelings? He doesn't want to kill a former companion and friend of Hawke, and disappoint the memory of Elthina--but he'd let ''you'' do it. To kill Anders, he'd have to go through Hawke, too. He probably doesn't want to hurt Hawke/Hawke's companions, and because he doesn't want to die himself. As for whether he plans on razing Kirkwall--those ''could'' just be empty words. After all, chances are Hawke and Anders will be skipping town, so what would be the point? It was probably just a hollow threat. Most of what we see of Sebastian establishes him as indecisive and hotheaded, and his actions reflected that. On TheDoylist side, Sebastian attacking would have made for a dead Sebastian, and they want him alive for future games/DLC.

** It's also worth noting Anders simply wanted to start all out war everywhere so the mages would be forced to fight the Chantry. Presumably he was hoping they'd win. He himself didn't seem particularly insistent on leading the revolution, just starting it. In fact he seemed to be counting on dying, being rather surprised if Hawke ends up sparing him. Since he'd been a Warden for almost 10 years by then (meaning a decade or two and it would be time for his Calling.) and him dying would allow Justice to be freed from his body to return to the Fade, it's likely he wanted death.
** Actually, he does try some of those things--he ''was'' a part of an underground mage rebellion, and he ''was'' gathering allies. The public did start favoring the mages--remember the beginning of Act 3? But Hawke never really gets involved because Anders deliberately won't involve him/her in the actual rebellion. But Meredith gets worse and the rebellion is all but destroyed over the course of the game. Blowing up the Chantry was his final, desperate act for action. In his mind, mages were going to stay oppressed unless something *big* happened. So he forced everyone's hand. Anders did not expect to live through bombing the Chantry. He never called himself the leader of the rebellion. He *wanted* to live, to a degree, but he also knew he wouldn't deserve it if he did. His plan hung on the crux of Meredith flipping shit and doing exactly what she had wanted to do--an Annulment. Because of that, rebellion was incited.

** Anders did what he did for all mages? Really? Because all he accomplished was making sure that mage-nonmage relations would be ruined for the rest of eternity. From now on, only two possible outcomes exist - either the mages are brutally exterminated and all future mages are killed as children (or tortured and dehumanized into the equivalent of the qunari's saarebas), or the mages will be forced to destroy all Chantry members, all templars, and most of the normal populace (who will now see them as monsters who have been condemned by the Maker), crushing anyone without magical power beneath a second Tevinter Imperium. By making the mages' desires for freedom synonymous with mass murder and antitheistic terrorism, Anders has damned the entire population of Thedas to decades, perhaps even centuries of strife.

** It think that's very rare.

** We have no reason ''not'' to believe them either. Why would they lie? They're gonna die anyway. And nobody denied that's why they did it, not even the Templars. Sure the Templar hunting Anders was a nutball, but she did come from the Fereldan chapter and had achieved a high enough position to lead a search party. It's not as if her attitudes had sidelined her. No, Jowan had not been caught performing Blood Magic. There were a few rumours he was a Blood Mage, that's it. If that's why they were going to Tranquilise him that's worse. They're [[MindRape mind raping]] him based on rumour. I doubt it though. They don't Tranquilise Blood Mages, they kill them. Finally you are really going to defend taking a child away from a mother because she has a certain trait? That was her ''son!'' He could easily go out into the world when he grows up after being raised by his mother or raised by a foster family but visit rather then taken who-knows-where and the two ''never'' being allowed to even see each other. Even parents in prison are allowed to see their kids and they've actually done something wrong. And even if none of the above were true the fact remains that mages are being held somewhere against their will. It could be the nicest place in Thedas and it would still be a prison for those who have commited no crime.
** Because the blood mage who tells you this really wants to live--she begs for her life ahead of time. You're right, but she wasn't supposed to. If a police officer shoots an unarmed prisoner, he is not ''correct'' in doing so, even if he has his buddies back him up. It does not necessarily reflects upon the precinct he comes from. Yes, he was. Did you never speak to Irving? He'll tell you Jowan was seen performing blood magic--''Jowan'' tries to tell you that it's because he's not doing good enough, and then if you confront him about the blood magic thing (notice how the mage here lies about his motivations?) he'll just say some Templar must have seen him sneaking around with Lily, and ''that's'' it--but we later find how he was completely lying to you. It wasn't a "few rumors"--they caught him, he ''was'' a blood mage. Yep, yes I am. The child can't stay at the Circle tower. Also, as I recall the new Dragon Age book is about Wynne's son--for all we know, she had the kid by a Templar, and ''his'' family took the kid in. It's possible there were extenuating circumstances, who knows? Yes, there are very cruel aspects of the Circle, but it's not horrific. The Circle is a necessity. We don't have real world applications for mages. They can ''control minds''. What if one gets in good with a world leader? They, in their dreams, can be possessed, become a demon, and firebomb a neighborhood. There's no way to regulate that. There's no way to control it, except for account for them all and account for the magic they use. The best that can be done is give them, as you say, a gilded prison.

** Exactly. Since I got into this discussion I have never suggested that mages shouldn't be trained. It's the method of training that's the problem. To cover the points my compatriot above did not, Meredith made the jump from "a mage killed my family" to "all mages ''will'' kill people," an absurd logical fallacy. And then was willing to use a mysterious and highly dangerous artefact from the Deep Roads to empower herself against mages and provoked a World War. Not really an advert for the Circle there. As for the merchant's sister made Tranquil from the context it would seem she was one of Ser Alrik's victims. More to the point the merchant says "sweet and gentle" not "sweet, soft and utterly defenseless." A gentle person is very unlikely to fall to a demon because she doesn't want power like that. Unless of course she were backed into a corner by a fanatic in a tin can who wants to kill her for something that isn't her fault. The way forward is obvious; mages should be treated like the Dalish treat them. Have an more experienced mage train them, keep an eye on them, take them down if they do go Abomination, but don't treat them like criminals. Let them live with other people, let them still talk to their family and friends, allow them to feel part of the community. Give them reasons to care about other people. Outside the communal lives of the Dalish you are going to need a group like the Templars but, as I said earlier, let them be a police force not the SS. They don't need to hover over mages, hands on hilts, every day of their lives. Most people live fairly blameless lives without a policeman watching their every move, most mages will do the same. Treat mages like that and you'll have thousands, maybe tens of thousands of decent, well adjusted mages using their powers to make the lives of every person in Thedas better. And when one of them does go bad, the Templars can deal with it with help from other mages.

** The problem here is that you are basing your argument on those apostates encountered in-game by Hawke and the Warden. Of course most of them are going to be a threat: we're playing a game. We need things to fight. Most of the travellers we meet on the road are bandits, most Antivans are Crows, most Dwarves in 2 are Carta etc. It's not a fair sampling. As to Blood Magic you do not need to make a deal with a demon, that's just the only way to unlock the class in Origins. Hawke can become a Blood Mage without meeting a single demon, Malcom Hawke did in Legacy, Grace learned from Decimus and so forth. Anders even asks Merrill if she just cut herself and realized the power. He wouldn't ask that if it wasn't possible, even likely. You condemn the Mages Collective without proof. The mission you refer to is warning off the ''relatives'' of an ''accused'' Blood Mage, not warning off an actual Blood Mage. Now they might be lying but there is no evidence of that and given that another Collective mission is hunting down and killing Blood Mages I'm inclined to believe them. Most Collective missions come down to "get people to leave us alone non-violently." If that's not responsible what is? Then, as I keep saying, there's the Dalish. And yes, Zathrian, but if one insane Templar chapter does not condemn the Circle than certainly one single mad Keeper does not condem the Dalish. Given the reactions to Merrill Blood Magic and demon summoning are extremely rare among them. And Velanna was thrown out for wanting to use perfectly normal magic in a violent fashion. Then there is Ella, Alain, Terrie, Lanaya, likely Mage Warden or Mage Hawke, most Warden mages and even Morrigan most of the time. I mean she's brutal but she's not going around killing people at random or getting possessed. Even with the "it's a game so we need enemies" thing we still get many such examples. As for Tevinter, yes, it sucks, but as I already said it sucks because it's a slave owning, imperialistic dictatorship not because mages are free. Even Fenris admits most mages there are little better than slaves, only the chosen few Magisters have power. Take magic away from Tevinter and it would still be terrible. Also as I've said before my position is not "mages should be completely left alone," it's "mages should be trained and policed, not treated worse than criminals because of what they ''might'' do." And as I've also pointed out the Circle simply doesn't work, as has been proven time and time again. When something causes a World War it might just be time to try something else.

** But if the Tivinters weren't mages, then their society wouldn't have been possible in the first place. They use blood magic to control others, and used that to conquer country after country, enslaving ever more people. Your average mage is a poor kid who woke up one day with powers - powers capable of razing whole villages or inviting in demons to commit atrocities that are only capable because they are mages. What's worse; that it can happen by accident or that it can happen by design? Either way, it's something that's only possible because mages, when untrained and unsupervised, are walking weapons of mass destruction. Take the example of Anders: a well-meaning mage who wants to be able to live his life freely. He then corrupts a fade spirit into a rage demon and sparks a global war. You can argue that it was the oppressive Circle system that caused it but it still shows that a mage carries the capacity for death and destruction so long as they carry human flaws like anger, greed, lust, desperation and confusion - that is to say, merely existing. And again, because it needs to be reiterated, there is literally nothing in this setting that can cause as much ruin as a rogue mage. Even if it is possible for mages to live peacefully as individuals or in a group, and I don't discount the possibility, so long as there is one mage willing to use their power negatively, with all the possible outcomes we know can occur, then there has to be some system to stop them from doing so. Kirkwall is clearly not that system, but there can hardly be an effective one that does not involve training mages from children in a controlled, monitored environment.
** The problem is that the Circle is explicitly ''not'' that system. It does train and monitor mages from early life, which is necessary, but it also treats them as living weapons with no rights for their entire lives. A mage has no control over their lives or even the barest pretense of civil rights. They're expected to follow every demand the Templars place on them on fear of punishments ranging from torture to execution that can be doled out completely at the discretion of their guards. The Templars' have absolute power over their charges with next to no oversight. The mage is little more than a tool of the Chantry, a slave in all but name, in the Circle and they can't ever do enough to prove themselves worthy of actual trust. The Chantry depends on this strongarm system to intimidate mages into loyalty, and yet they still have constant dissension. On the other hand, self policing groups like the Dalish and the underground mage groups get much better results by actually treating the mages as humans/elves and giving them a reason to actually care about the fates of non-mages. There needs to be a system to control magic, but the Circle is not the way to do it. You won't prevent a second Tevinter by oppressing random mages like this. All that accomplishes is giving them a very good reason to hate "muggles".

** Orsino knew the magic grafted bodies together and reanimated them. That's what Quentin uses it for and thats what Orsino uses it for. He couldn't be ignorant to that fact and still use the magic roughly the same way Quentin uses it. And the thing your side misses about this argument is that even if there are a few good apostates out there, every scenario we're in reinforces the idea that it's all too easy for these walking powder kegs to explode with disastrous results. Even if it was only one out of ten, when you see the sheer devastation they can unleash, it totally justifies the normal practices of the Templars. And if the game is anything to go by, it's more like 9 out of 10. If you were an ordinary citizen living with near constant demon and blood mage attacks, tell me you wouldn't be in full support of the Templars.
** Except that 9 out of every 10 Templars we run into are violently psychotic fanatics ready to kill or tranqulise any mage that looks at them funny along with anyone who ever chatted with said mage. I'm sure most Templars aren't like that but again, it's a game, we need something to fight and often. The experiences shown in game are not indicative of large scale trends. How many of the average citzens of Kirkwall do you think run into dragons on a regular basis? And no, even if one in ten apostate mages were likely to go bad (which the survival of Dalish society and the Mages' Collective suggests is a massive over estimation anyway) it still wouldn't justify the Templars' treatment of them. First, if 1 in 10 people of any given group became criminals, that would suggest a deep seated problem with that group, sure, but would you really suggest the other 9 out 10 be arrested and imprisoned as well, just in case? You really think that's a fair and just use of power? Second, as has been said, taking mages away from their families, treating them like criminals even though they've done nothing wrong, telling them that god hates them just for existing and putting them entirely under the control of a bunch of religious fanatics in tin cans who are trained almost exclusively to kill them is not a great way to get them on side. The Circle essentially teaches mages that humanity has no place for them. How is that supposed to make them hold onto their humanity (or elfanity for that matter)? By all means find and train them but the Templars' approach is only making it worse.
** All of this comes to a very particular point - the Circle system was set up by a whole lot of people who had just freed themselves from a magocratic empire and were very, ''very'' afraid of magic and what it could do. Templars are often promoted on the basis of their faith, not their competence, which only reinforces mage-phobic attitudes amongst the ranks. In theory, the Circle seems like a great idea. Find the mages, bring them in so they don't get possessed, show them how to use their skills safely and protect them from those same people who would lynch them out of fear caused by legends from Tevinter. Unfortunately, the system's a mess, as mages have such a bad reputation that (as mentioned above) they're essentially taught that the world has no place for them, and the templars are given carte blanche on how they treat mages, because the alternative is seen as suggesting that they'd prefer the Tevinters back. As some brilliant person over the fridge brilliance section said: over the centuries, this fear-driven method has become unquestioned dogma. The fact that actual dangers exist ensure that nobody ever considers designing a different method. From the outside, we can see all this, but the fact is we're unlikely to see any peaceful, non-threatening apostates because they're busy keeping their heads down and not causing trouble. Malcolm Hawke went for at least twenty years without causing any problems, as did at least one of his kids. Further, it's questionable just how much we can rely on evidence from [=DA2=], considering how thin the veil was, and that Kirkwall was basically built to make people use blood magic and [[spoiler: Corypheus was apparently passively responsible for the madness and idiocy there.]] As far as Anders goes, his actions demonstrate an incredibly ruthless and sickeningly brilliant move. His little stunt at the end of Act 3 was ''intended'' to make Meredith declare the Rite of Annulment, and prove that the templars could no longer be trusted to watch the mages, when an apostate destroyed the Chantry and an innocent Circle was put to death for it. Either he'd be a martyr for the mage cause and a symbol they could rally behind, or a powerful figure in their war. Anders knew it'd be bloody. But at that point, he didn't care.
* Blood magic is considered to be the definition of evil by the Chantry, which is fair enough considering the Tevinter Imperium used it as a method of ruling a brutal empire. However, the modern Chantry's main stance on mages is that they are a threat due to abominations. Blood magic has no risk of abominations, and as long as the power isn't drawn from the life force of slaves, doesn't seem to have any ethical issues. So the Templar stance on blood magic seems to be born of ancient prejudices rather than reality. Also, it should be noted that the Tevinter magisters were mages of incredible power and, since they seem pretty much the definition of excessive pride, doesn't it stand to reason that where they to be possessed, they would become pride abominations. Adding their existing power, surely these abominations would have been capable of tearing cities apart? Odd that there are no references to any Tevinter magisters becoming abominations. Also, in game, none of the abominations are that strong, although that could be because they are weaker demons. Perhaps the stronger ones just aren't that interested in posseing random mages.
** The Chantry fears blood magic for a boatload of reasons other than abominations. Supposedly (although I'm not sure if it's ever specified how) a blood mage is immune to possession, which is theoretically a good thing. However, that blood mage is also able to control other people's minds and bodies, can summon demons and bind them to their will (which would reduce the odds of becoming abominations themselves, and the biggest thing that the Tevinters apparently do), and most importantly, is able to use magic in large amounts ''without lyrium.'' The lyrium trade is watched incredibly closely, which is why lyrium smuggling is so unbelievably profitable for the Carta. If someone was able to wield large amounts of magic by using blood sacrifice (their own or others) as fuel, they'd be outside the Chantry's control. The leash for the templars is just as effective on the mages. Now, as to why exactly we find lyrium dust all over the damn place in the various games, we can assume that the Warden got special access to Chantry stocks of the stuff or that less-scrupulous people stocked it for the use of templars jonesing for a hit or apostates. But one of the Chantry lines [[WelcomeToCorneria you'll hear most often]] is "Magic is meant to serve man and never to rule over him." The Tevinter reference aside, it's also the basis of the blood magic ban. Not to mention that it's apparently a slippery slope from "hm, gotta open a vein to get the mojo to cast this spell," to "need more blood. Hey, you, c'mere a second," to "massive blood sacrifice so I can etch my face into this mountain."

** Well, she needed to find someone with an invitation. It's worth noting that the Arishok respects you at least a little by the time you kill him--something the other qunari are aware of. Everyone else with a pass is Orlesian, which won't do. Hawke can ask why she's asking for help from him, and that's pretty much what she'll say.

** Maybe, but Kristoff wasn't really anything special. Justice was only interested in what he saw because he was new to the physical world and only had those thoughts to gain context about it from. Kristoff had no connection to mages or templars, nor did he have any grand secrets that could hint at further developments, so I doubt that Anders would be particularly impacted by anything that came from his head.
** True... but it does make me [[CrossesTheLineTwice laugh]] at just how screwed up the inside of Ander's head must look like by now.

* I just don't get this. Hawke's set for life, especially if you do MotA in Act 3 when Hawke's the Champion. Tallis doesn't offer you anything, so why waste your time helping some random elf infiltrate an Orlesian house party?

* How do the Templars get away with Tranquilizing dozens of Harrowed mages per week, something which is explicitly ILLEGAL under Chantry law? I mean, forget the whole mage vs. templar issue or even treating mages like human beings, this is a blatant violation of a law instated by the CHANTRY, the very institution that set up the Circle and the Templars in the first place. It's especially jarring with Ser Alrik, who was not only operating his plans before Meredith was driven insane, but he took his plan to the effin' DIVINE. You'd think that he would get arrested on the spot. Even if Kirkwall is unusually barbaric when it came to the treatment of mages, one would think that the Chantry as a whole would have a problem with its branch in Kirkwall completely disregarding its rules. The Chantry doesn't seem like an institution that would let shit fly like that.
** Well, there's the problem that the one who's supposed to enforce Xhantry law in Kirkwall, Grand Cleric Elthina, doesn't have the guts to stand up to Meredith when she should. But where did you get that dozens of mages were made tranquil weekly? I got the impression it was one or two per week/month - whoever Alrik could lure away without arousing too much suspicion. As for why he wasn't arrested, perhaps they (Meredith and Elthina) figured he would drop the matter and continue on as usual after his request was turned down, and then when mages began getting tranquilized they began investigating but couldn't prove he was behind it (he may have been valuable in some way - like being exceptionally competent in hunting apostates, for example - so that Meredith was unwilling to persecute him without solid proof).
** For the dozens per week, I am probably wrong about it. I think I remember conversations with Anders on the subject, but he may not be the most reliable or unbiased source. Regardless the Kirkwall Templars are violating Chantry law by doing it. For the record, they did have proof. Neither Alrick nor Meredith near the end were really keeping it a secret. Anders claims that he keeps seeing more Tranquil appear in the Gallows, running shops no less, and that many of them had already passed their Harrowing. Whoever was behind the Tranquilizations was flaunting it. I can understand Kirkwall turning a blind eye on it. It just bugs me that Ser Alrick brought this to the Divine and the Chantry as a whole did not investigate this. One would think that, regardless of their opinions on mages, the Chantry would enforce its own laws.

[[folder: Sorry for killing your Templars, by for now.]]

** You might recall that you didn't leave any witnesses of that massacre; even Karl was killed. Also, there was some indication that Alrik--the templar who organized the ambush--was acting without orders from Meredith.
** Incidentally, there are a few templars who try to take the law into their own hands in Act 2 and murder Hawke if s/he killed Ser Kerras in Act 1.

** We don't know what Cassandra's plan is. I mean Leliana is with her and she's hardly a rabid anti mage type. It may be she has a third option.
** This is the Mage-Templar war, not the Mage-Chantry war: The Templar side is in open rebellion against the chantry: even a completely pro-mage Hawke (or a ''libertarian-of-the-year'' mage-Warden) would have their use.
** Also after reading "Asunder" it becomes a bit clearer: ''The Divine is pro-mage.'' Not exactly close-down-the-Circle-and-let-them-all-free pro-mage but overall her sympathies are with them. She was trying to reform the Circle before everything went sour, the only reason it didn't work was Templar resistance.

** Best Served Cold.
** I can see three explanations here. First: Hawke's friend/lover/sibling is right over there, still groggy from mind control. A big knock down fight would put them at serious risk. Second, Cullen almost certainly informed Meredith before acting on his tip off, so killing him would probably spark off the mage-Templar war right there. Third, while anti mage freedom Cullen does not say "Templars have an inherent right to do whatever they please with mages," he's just rather quick on the judgement for mages. The guy is probably Meredith's last stabilizing influence. If he dies, Meredith will likely call the Rite of Annulment the next time a mage looks at her funny.

* Ok so the templars invoke the rite of annulment, got that. Orsino begs Meredith not to, and says they'll submit to all her rules, just don't kill them all. She says no, Rite of Annulment, which has been established means every single mage will be purged from the Circle. Orsino even says again later that Meredith can end this by calling off the rite, the mages won't fight unless she tries to murder them all. Meredith says no and the Templars don't object. I don't see a problem with this. The problem is like 2 minutes after the second time Orsino makes this offer, Bethany and some mages run up and say they won't fight so long as the Templars agree not to kill them and the Templars... spare them? Shouldn't the fight have ended right then and there with the other mages going "we don't want to die, we want to surrender like we tried twice already". The only reason this fight was happening was because Meredith invoked the rite that said she would be murdering every single one of them, once that obviously wasn't going to happen..why did the fight not stop? Or why didn't the Templars just say to Bethany, "We've told you people twice already it doesn't matter if you surrender, we're going to kill you"?

* Why can't you become the Viscount without Templar support? You have the Guard Captain on your side who has made a point of making her group a counterpoint to templar oppression, you can have a mage underground, a noble underground, your own wealth and influence as the Champion, Circle support, King Alistair's support, tons of good will from citizens for all the favors you've done, even a smattering of underworld contacts to grease the wheels. Sure no one of these groups is enough on their own to oppose the Templars but surely united under the Champion, Meredith would have no choice but to accept the Champion as Viscount. Grand Cleric Elthina would not let Meredith act in revolt against the new Viscount and if she does she would be curbstomped facing the aforementioned factions and likely many defectors within her own camp. This is a huge plot oversight. Or alternately, just become Viscount with the aforementioned backing without taking any anti-Templar stance. Let the Templars divide themselves in reaction to you and let Meredith be crushed in a battle on fronts from without and within.
** The answer to both of these is because [[spoiler: Anders set off a bomb in the Chantry that sparked a war]]. I also think you sorely overestimate just about ''all of the resouces'' you listed as being under Hawke's control. Most of the groups listed would see a rebellion against the Templars as, "Yeah, you go do that, I'll sit back here and watch your suicidal plan fail." The only oversight I see here is not taking into consideration that before [[spoiler: the bomb went off]], Elthina was strictly neutral and Meredith was actively prohibiting the appointment of a new Viscount, and afterwards, it was war.

** She might be well likes because of her passivity. An authority figure who's not taking a stand is a blank canvas for projection. If she did pick a side all hell would break loose for her, but in stalling she could both keep the conflict away from herself and gain sympathy from those who were tired of it.

** "Elthina is actually Meredith's superior" Only on paper. Elthina's ability to actually control Meredith became more uncertain as she became more and more unstable. Whether Meredith would have actually listened if Elthina actively opposed her is an open question. And don't forget that ''Elthina herself'' has to answer to a higher authority, and we're given no indication that Val Royeaux disapproves of Meredith's actions. Her hands may simply have been tied. "Also Orsino is apparently giving public speeches about how his people are being mistreated" Not true. He gave ''one'' speech where he alleges some outlandish Templar conspiracy to rule Kirkwall with an iron fist. Elthina has little reason to give any credibility to this accusation. And remember that at that point in the game, the biggest Templar crimes were committed by people ''other'' than Meredith. Ser Alrik and Sister Patrice were both rogue agents pursuing their own unsanctioned agendas ''without'' the knowledge or permission of their superiors, and when they were found out they were both put down. Apart from that, the worst the Templars ever did was things like keeping the mages locked up for longer than they should and denying them access to their staffs and spellbooks. And given the massive Blood Mage problem in Kirkwall, they could easily justify that as a necessary security measure. Templars are, after all, experts on the subject of safely controlling mages, and Elthina is not. "[E]ven if she had come down on the Templars' side I would have respected her far more." Would you? Did you respect Meredith and Alrik for their unflinching commitment to their radical anti-mage beliefs? Because those are the people that Elthina would be supporting if she sided with the Templars.

* Carver/Bethany's kidnapping during this quest makes no sense if they Grey Wardens. First of all: the Warden Keep is in another city. Hawke visits two secret meetings and is then informed by Keran that his/her sibling was kidnapped. By the way Keran tells you about this we can presume the deed was done some time ago. It couldn't be more than a day to two between both meetings, yet conspirators somehow managed to formulate a plan, go to another city, kidnap your sibling and drag them to Kirkwall. Secondly, don't Wardens have any sort of security in their Keep? Can anyone just walk in? "Best Served Cold" can happen after player did the ''Legacy'' DLC, which means the Keep was already attacked once, because of your sibling. You think they would be more careful after this incident. Aveline is already in Kirkwall so she is more "available" she can be also the Guard-Captain by this point. Don't anyone of her co-workers or her own husband realize she is missing? If they do why they are not looking for her? Either way kidnapping any of these three people (Carver, Bethany, Aveline) is rather stupid move. Thrask would not only have Hawke on his tail, but also the City Guard/Grey Wardens.

** One assumes spells like Earthquake, Tempest, Blizard, and Inferno do more property damage than the game engine will allow. Then you bring in things like virulent walking bomb...it's unpleasant. The main issue, however, is that if a warrior or a rogue goes on a rampage, they're completely responsible for their own actions and can be brought to justice accordingly. A mage can be possessed at any time given a slight slip in judgement or alertness, and a pride or desire abomination can do considerably more damage than a rogue or a warrior. It's best to be preemptive about that.

** It's mentioned (or retconned) that the body that everyone thought was Anders was someone else, and the body was battered beyond recognition. We do know that Justice was accidentally sucked into Kristoff's corpse back in Awakening, and it was a freak accident that probably couldn't be replicated. When he merged with Anders, Anders mentioned that he and Justice are now one, to the point that they can't be separated. Presumably, if you kill Anders, he stays dead, and Justice goes with him.

** Okay incoming wall of text, so I'm sectioning it off in numbers. Bear with me here. 1) Actually, the Qunari do have a treaty with the lands of Thedas. Sten and Alistair even discuss it in party banter in DA:O. It's why they're not attacking them at the moment. Whether or not it includes extradition is not discussed, but that's not the point - she stole a priceless relic of the Qunari, knew they wanted it back, and instead of just *giving* it to them she led them on a goose chase that ended with the deaths of hundreds. Legally she may not be responsible (and that's arguable), but morally that's exactly what happened, and that's makes her culpable. 2) Regardless of who the theft was from, she ''knew'' the Qunari had to come find it. She knew it was a Qunari relic of massive importance. She acquired it in Orlais, but there was no question of who she stole it from. 3) I'd feel a lot better about her "survival instinct" if she wasn't knowingly dooming hundreds of innocent people to death and warfare because of it, which is precisely what she knew she was doing. She could've gotten the the tome, got it to Hawke, they went to the Arishok, and once Hawke was told that the Tome of Koslun AND Isabela would have to be taken, he could've fought the Arishok then. But, instead, she caused a war. Hence my problem. 4) The comparisons to Hawke and Fenris don't really apply; almost every death if not ''every'' death Hawke is responsible for was either in self-defense or defending someone else (and you can choose how that goes down), and pretty much all of those people are ''horrible'' (except maybe Thrask, but then you don't have to kill him). And Fenris was an escaped slave suffering from MoreThanMindControl and hadn't thrown off the slave mentality when he killed the Fog Warriors. Theirs is excusable, Isabela's is pure cowardice. 5) Why ''does'' that occur if you let the Arishok have Isabela? I was cool with killing him for what he did - he certainly earned it - but if you give him Isabela, Hawke lets him ''walk.'' And I ''don't understand that.'' I'd really like to know the rationale behind that one, because I don't get it.

** Ok, I'm going to dispute the points, beacuse I'm enjoying the debate, but beforehand I'm going to say that I agree that it is YMMV situation and I bare you no ill will for merely holding a different opinion regarding a fictional dilemma. So 1)I agree that she has a moral responsibility but I don't think that handing her over to the Qunari is a fair punishment for what she did. 2)Actually no. Her story makes it fairly clear that, while she knew it was a Qunari relic when she stole it, she had no idea how important it was to them. She was just given the order "Steal this relic before it's sold to the Qunari." She could be lying about that of course but given that even when she's 'fessing up she's still puzzled as to why the Qunari care so much I'm inclined to believe her. 3) The thing here is that she's not just at risk from the Qunari. If it was only the Arishok after her I think by that point an Isabela high enough on relationship values to decide to come back later would be willing to go with Hawke and trust him to protect her if the Arishok demanded to take her. However if she did that she'd still be being hunted by the people who hired her, so her life would still be in constant deadly danger. Which is what happens if you spare her; only Hawke's later help sorts that. So again, few people are really willing to actually die for others. 4)Yes, Fenris and Hawke have excuses but they still did it. Fenris might have been badly mentaly beaten down but he was still a free willed individual. He could have said no, he didn't. Isabela is facing her death. That may be cowardice but it is a cowardice most of us would suffer from. If I knew hundreds would die and I could save them by dying myself I'm aware the moral choice is to die but I can't honestly say with any certainty that I could actually do that. 5) Well, the real reason is of course "Because that's how it's written" but in universe it's more of a philosophical issue with the Qunari. After all they seem incapable of iniative with the Arishok; with him dead they can't take any action but retreat, including taking Isabela. Just a WMG really but it fits.

** Isabela was shipwrecked near Kirkwall just like the Qunari. She could leave, sure, but she also knows that the book in somewhere in or around Kirkwall and that book is the only way to get Castetion off her back. As for Anders having max friendship with the Warden the Warden is no longer in command at Amarathine. As the epilogue to Awakening states he/she left shortly after the defeat of the Mother. The reason is different depending on your Warden but he/she always leaves. So Anders clearly didn't get on with his/her replacement nearly as well. Cullen is easy; as he explains if you ask him he was transferred shortly after the end of ''Origins''. This makes sense; you're Knight-Commander Greagoir, you like an amicable balance between mages and Templars. But you've got Cullen hanging around, still massively distrustful following the Uldred thing. Why not send him to Meredith, a Knight-Commander he knows will appreciate that attitude, and spare you the issue? I'll grant that it's rather coincidental at best that Hawke and the Warden happen to meet so many of the same people but hey, it's fiction. And the individual reasons for their presences there do make sense.

** Except that Cullen ''was'' frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die. First when you meet him in the second-to-last floor of the tower of Magi and when you bring Irving back. When Greagoir say that he's glad to see the First Enchanter back, Cullen say something like "but he's a blood mage! Every mage is or will be, we must KillThemAll." Which ''is'' a fitting attitude for endgame!Meredith but not before. He ''was'' tortured horribly but that meant he should be treated as a victim and healed, not just promoted somewhere else.

** That is one possibility and only one. I never saw that option myself. Plus WordOfGod is that a number of the epilogues were more what ''might'' happen rather than hard fact. After all, epilogues from Awakening regarding Anders are all wrong.

** Let's not assume any such thing. The prologue demonstrably does ''not'' happen two weeks after the start of the Blight, it happens after Lothering is destroyed. And that doesn't happen until after the Warden has passed through Lothering, traveled to Redcliffe/Kinloch Hold/the Brecilian Forest/Orzammar and completed at least one whole main questline. That is, bare minimum, a month, given the Warden's party has no transport but their own two feet and Ostagar is a long way from even the closest of those. Then you've got travel time to Kirkwall and, like you say, Varric is likely rounding the timescales for the sake of narrative. Also Awakening is very shortly after Origins and the whole of Awakening was maybe a month or two long (remember Amarathine is a tiny corner of Ferelden). The timing is little tight, sure, but given that Hawke didn't even leave Lothering until the Warden was a third of the way through the Blight, I think we're good. Side note; the inverted commas on revolution are rather puzzling; it definitely is a revolution.

** It's not that they're powerful and more that all of the other mages in the game other than Arcane Horrors have terrible AI. Every other mage's tactics seems to be to do nothing but cast forcefield on themselves until all of their allies are dead before actually attacking, so players can just ignore them until they've killed everyone else. Saarabas and Arcane Horrors on the other hand will nuke your party on sight, which makes it a priority to take them out first.

* So, Magister McAsshole turns up in Kirkwall, lays a trap to get Fenris to show up, then... what? Danarius put himself in an incredibly vulnerable position by walking up to the guy that wants to kill him more than just about anything else and has the skills to back it all up. Sure he had forces with him, but Fenris has killed almost overwhelming groups of people before and never backs down (as shown in his short story). Was there any outcome that was likely other than glowy hand through the face? Especially now that Fenris has allies. I know you can turn Fenris over, but Danarius acts surprised if you do, so that couldn't have been what he was expecting.
** Danarius is a Tevinter Magister. As a group they tend to assume that they are always in total control of every situation regardless of objective facts. Witness Livius Erimond in Inquisition constantly mouthing off to people who can easily kill him. The idea that he might actually ''lose'' never entered Danarius' mind.

* This is the argument most often brought up against Anders' actions at the end... but the attack takes place at nightfall, when the Chantry is closed or closing, and the Kirkwall Chantry is repeatedly shown to be almost deserted even during daytime. During the cutscene of the Chantry Boom, we see only Templars and the Grand Cleric inside, all of whom are party to the abuses of the Gallows and thus legitimate targets. Where, then, are all these alleged innocent people?
** First the Chantry's doors are always open (hence why so much happens there at night in the game) so there likely were others there, the priests doing the "night shift" if no-one else. Second, debris rained down on much of the city so deaths beyond the Chantry itself seem very likely. Third, plenty of people would count the Grand Cleric as innocent as she merely failed to stop the Templar abuses rather than being an active part, something that applies to many Templars as well. Finally, many feel that the actions taken by most of the Templars who did act wrongly were not enough to merit a death sentence (and unlike ''Inquisition'' there is not an open state of war between Templars and mages) so it's not as if their deaths don't count. For reference I am decidedly anti-Templar in my general stance but still agree with much of the above.

At the final battle, Cullen refuses to attack Hawke and instead sides with them against Meredith. Now, I can understand why he would do that if you were on the Templars' side, but what about the Mages? For much of DAII, Cullen was clearly firm in his stance of hunting down dangerous mages, and if Hawke supports the Mages, then Cullen would have absolutely no reason to oppose Meredith. Why would he instead choose to arrest someone that clearly would not want to be taken prisoner? Why would he call it too far?

Also, in the Templar side, Carver said that they were gonna arrest the Champion? Why would he say that if Hawke was on their side?
* On Cullen's side while he has been pro-Templar he isn't as dead-set on hating mages and all those who stand up for them as Meredith. Notice he never holds it against Hawke if he/she argues for mages in front of him. Basically he sees those who support mage freedom as well-meaning but misguided as opposed to Meredith seeing them as willing supporters of actual evil. Also he has been paying attention and has noticed Meredith's SanitySlippage. For a time he tries to fool himself that it's not that bad so he can still see himself as being in a simple moral situation but trying to kill the city's beloved Champion (someone he actually admires personally) without even trying to arrest him/her is too far. On the Templar side Meredith is clearly anti-Hawke regardless so planning to arrest him/her anyway then went even further as the violence accelerated her insanity.

* On Cullen's side while he has been pro-Templar he isn't as dead-set on hating mages and all those who stand up for them as Meredith. Notice he never holds it against Hawke if he/she argues for mages in front of him. Basically he sees those who support mage freedom as well-meaning but misguided as opposed to Meredith seeing them as willing supporters of actual evil. Also has been paying attention and has noticed Meredith's SanitySlippage. For a time he tries to fool himself that it's not that bad so he can still see himself as being in a simple moral situation but trying to kill the city's beloved Champion (someone he actually admires personally) without even trying to arrest him/her is too far. On the Templar side Meredith is clearly anti-Hawke regardless so planning to arrest him/her anyway then went even further as the violence accelerated her insanity.

* On Cullen's side while he has been pro-Templar he isn't as dead-set on hating mages and all those who stand up for them as Meredith. Notice he never holds it against Hawke if he/she argues for mages in front of him. Also has been paying attention and has noticed Meredith's SanitySlippage. For a time he tries to fool himself that it's not that bad so he can still see himself as being in a simple moral situation but trying to kill the city's beloved Champion (someone he actually admires personally) without even trying to arrest him/her is too far. On the Templar side Meredith is clearly anti-Hawke regardless so planning to arrest him/her anyway then went even further as the violence accelerated her insanity.

* On Cullen's side while he has been pro-Templar he isn't as dead-set on hating mages and all those who stand up for them as Meredith. Notice he never holds it against Hawke if he/she argues for mages in front of him. Also has been paying attention and has noticed Meredith's SanitySlippage. For a time he tries to fool himself that it's not that bad so he can still see himself as being in a simple moral situation but trying to kill the city's beloved Champion (someone he actually admires personally) without even trying to arrest him/her is too far. On the Templar side Meredith is clear anti-Hawke regardless so planning to arrest him/her anyway then went even further as the violence accelerated her insanity.

Also, in the Templar side, Carver said that they were gonna arrest the Champion? Why would he do that if Hawke were on their side?