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7th May '13 10:24:41 PM mlsmithca

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There is no A in "definite". And while I'm at it, anything higher than a triple bullet point shows up as a triple bullet point on the page.

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**** An example of what? Elf Andrastians or Chantry species bias? The CE wedding was presided over by a Chantry sister and a few of the Alienage elves refer to the Maker. The Chantry is also the single uniting factor in Thedas. As the policies of the nations change, so do the Chantry and vice versa. The mages are oppressed and hated by society and the Chantry supports this. The elves are hated and oppressed by society so what are the odds that the Chantry is strongly against this sort of attitude? 
***** Um, that's some nice supposition you've got there, but do you have any actual examples?
***** How about the fact that the only section of the Chant of Light to deal with the contributions of elves (the Canticle of Shartan) was axed from the current chant? Or the fact that the entire divide between City Elves and Dalish Elves are a result of an Exalted March that uprooted them from their settlements? Alienages themselves were created due to this, because elves were forcibly converted to Andrastianism and forced to live in slums by the Chantry. Does that sound like a tolerant religion. More importantly, does this sound like the type of religion that would give an elf martial authority and weapons training?
***** Without knowing when and why the Canticle of Shartan was de-canonized we can't say whether the Chantry "internalizes anti-elf racism". After all it was a very long time ago. Perhaps it was a decision made by a small minority whose thinking is no longer influential in the Chantry. And before you ask "well why didn't they just change it back?" religious institutions tend to place a lot of value in tradition and are not known for reversing old precedent. It could be they haven't done it because they're wary of making such a great change. Call it stubborn if you want, but that's just the way large religious organizations tend to be. The Exalted March on the Dales is also not a clear case of anti-elf racism because we don't know the cause. The Dalish say it was caused by simple anti-elf racism, but of course they would say that. The Chantry said it was because the Dalish were practicing dark magic and making human sacrifices, but of course they would say that too. And the humans who lived near the Dales say it was touched off by Dalish raids on human settlements. As for the alienages, this again is not a clear example of anti-elf racism. Remember, the elves don't have to live in the alienages. They choose to live there because it helps shield them from anti-elf extremists. As for giving elves martial authority and weapons training, we never heard any objection from the Kirkwall Chantry about that elf girl who joined the city guard. So that can't be the issue either.
***** For the above examples, I'll just add a few things. The verses of the Chant that included Shartan were removed by the Divine (the head of the Chantry in Thedas) that started the Exalted March on the Dales. The Exalted March (at least by in-game info) is mentioned to have been started by the Divine, so they could force the elves from the Dales to worship Andraste, because they were worshipping the Creators. Basically, that is your version of the Crusade - it was started to convert and subjugate. Whether the current Chantry is racist towards the elves - that is possible, considering the Chantry has a lot of power in Thedas and they never use that power to promote equality or at least make their lives better. And they're still bitter towards the Dalish, because of their different beliefs and because their Keepers are technically apostates.
***** It should be noted, however, that it was Andraste who freed the elves from slavery, we learn that in the quest for the Sacred Ashes, so she at least apparently wasn't racist towards the elves. Also, the exalted march was started by the Divine because the elves living in the Dales didn't worship Andraste, who had freed them and gave them their homeland (sort of). That they were led by what technically were apostates didn't help much. The Divine probably thought they weren't being grateful enough. That was probably also the reason the Shartan part was cut from the chant. The prejudice was there even before the chantry, the chantry in and of itself did not start it, and nothing in chantry lore besides the exalted march supports it, and even that is questionable.
***** Actually there is a subtle but very definate anti-elf basis hidden right in the Chant of Light. The Chant refers to the Maker creating spirits, growing disappointed in them then turning to humans. Elves are never even mentioned, strongly suggesting that the Chantry sees elves and elven history as unimportant. (This would also apply to dwarves but dwarves for the most part don't have to deal with the Chantry.)

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*** An example of what? Elf Andrastians or Chantry species bias? The CE wedding was presided over by a Chantry sister and a few of the Alienage elves refer to the Maker. The Chantry is also the single uniting factor in Thedas. As the policies of the nations change, so do the Chantry and vice versa. The mages are oppressed and hated by society and the Chantry supports this. The elves are hated and oppressed by society so what are the odds that the Chantry is strongly against this sort of attitude? 
*** Um, that's some nice supposition you've got there, but do you have any actual examples?
*** How about the fact that the only section of the Chant of Light to deal with the contributions of elves (the Canticle of Shartan) was axed from the current chant? Or the fact that the entire divide between City Elves and Dalish Elves are a result of an Exalted March that uprooted them from their settlements? Alienages themselves were created due to this, because elves were forcibly converted to Andrastianism and forced to live in slums by the Chantry. Does that sound like a tolerant religion. More importantly, does this sound like the type of religion that would give an elf martial authority and weapons training?
*** Without knowing when and why the Canticle of Shartan was de-canonized we can't say whether the Chantry "internalizes anti-elf racism". After all it was a very long time ago. Perhaps it was a decision made by a small minority whose thinking is no longer influential in the Chantry. And before you ask "well why didn't they just change it back?" religious institutions tend to place a lot of value in tradition and are not known for reversing old precedent. It could be they haven't done it because they're wary of making such a great change. Call it stubborn if you want, but that's just the way large religious organizations tend to be. The Exalted March on the Dales is also not a clear case of anti-elf racism because we don't know the cause. The Dalish say it was caused by simple anti-elf racism, but of course they would say that. The Chantry said it was because the Dalish were practicing dark magic and making human sacrifices, but of course they would say that too. And the humans who lived near the Dales say it was touched off by Dalish raids on human settlements. As for the alienages, this again is not a clear example of anti-elf racism. Remember, the elves don't have to live in the alienages. They choose to live there because it helps shield them from anti-elf extremists. As for giving elves martial authority and weapons training, we never heard any objection from the Kirkwall Chantry about that elf girl who joined the city guard. So that can't be the issue either.
*** For the above examples, I'll just add a few things. The verses of the Chant that included Shartan were removed by the Divine (the head of the Chantry in Thedas) that started the Exalted March on the Dales. The Exalted March (at least by in-game info) is mentioned to have been started by the Divine, so they could force the elves from the Dales to worship Andraste, because they were worshipping the Creators. Basically, that is your version of the Crusade - it was started to convert and subjugate. Whether the current Chantry is racist towards the elves - that is possible, considering the Chantry has a lot of power in Thedas and they never use that power to promote equality or at least make their lives better. And they're still bitter towards the Dalish, because of their different beliefs and because their Keepers are technically apostates.
*** It should be noted, however, that it was Andraste who freed the elves from slavery, we learn that in the quest for the Sacred Ashes, so she at least apparently wasn't racist towards the elves. Also, the exalted march was started by the Divine because the elves living in the Dales didn't worship Andraste, who had freed them and gave them their homeland (sort of). That they were led by what technically were apostates didn't help much. The Divine probably thought they weren't being grateful enough. That was probably also the reason the Shartan part was cut from the chant. The prejudice was there even before the chantry, the chantry in and of itself did not start it, and nothing in chantry lore besides the exalted march supports it, and even that is questionable.
*** Actually there is a subtle but very definite anti-elf basis hidden right in the Chant of Light. The Chant refers to the Maker creating spirits, growing disappointed in them then turning to humans. Elves are never even mentioned, strongly suggesting that the Chantry sees elves and elven history as unimportant. (This would also apply to dwarves but dwarves for the most part don't have to deal with the Chantry.)

5th May '13 3:31:52 AM Ciabella

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Caver/Bethany's kidnapping during this quest makes no sense if they Grey Wardens. First of all: the Warden Keep is in another city. Hawke visits two secret meetings and is then informed by Karen that his/her sibling was kidnapped. By the way Karen tells you about this we can presume the deed was done some time ago. It couldn't be more than a day between both meetings, yet conspirators somehow managed to formulate a plan, go to another city, kidnap your sibling and drag them to Kirkwall. Secondly, don't Wardens have any sort of security in their Keep? Can anyone just walk in? Best Served Cold can happen after player did Legacy DLC which means the Keep was already attacked once, because of your sibling. You think they would be more careful after this incident. Avaline is already in Krikwall so she is more "available" she can be also the Guard-Captain by this point. Doesn't anyone of her co-workers or her own husband realize she is missing? If they do why they are not looking for her? Either way kidnapping any of these three people (Carver, Bethany, Avaline) is rather stupid move. Thrask would not only have Hawke on his tail, but also the City Guard/Grey Wardens.

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Caver/Bethany's kidnapping during this quest makes no sense if they Grey Wardens. First of all: the Warden Keep is in another city. Hawke visits two secret meetings and is then informed by Karen that his/her sibling was kidnapped. By the way Karen tells you about this we can presume the deed was done some time ago. It couldn't be more than a day to two between both meetings, yet conspirators somehow managed to formulate a plan, go to another city, kidnap your sibling and drag them to Kirkwall. Secondly, don't Wardens have any sort of security in their Keep? Can anyone just walk in? Best Served Cold can happen after player did Legacy DLC which means the Keep was already attacked once, because of your sibling. You think they would be more careful after this incident. Avaline is already in Krikwall so she is more "available" she can be also the Guard-Captain by this point. Doesn't anyone of her co-workers or her own husband realize she is missing? If they do why they are not looking for her? Either way kidnapping any of these three people (Carver, Bethany, Avaline) is rather stupid move. Thrask would not only have Hawke on his tail, but also the City Guard/Grey Wardens.

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30th Apr '13 5:57:35 AM TweaktheWhacked

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28th Apr '13 7:41:08 PM Kythereia

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* As any templar will tell you, Mages are dangerous. They can use blood magic, bind demons, become abominations, and occasionally summons shades and undead to attack you. But the game doesn't really support the idea that homocidal mages are that much more dangerous than all the other homocidal maniacs in the city. This was an issue in DA1 as well - due partly to competitive balancing, an partly to the sheer diversity of kinds of enemies you could fight, there's not much to really prove that a random mage is more of a threat than a warrior or a rogue. Sure, the mage has blood magic, but no one questions the warrior's right to swing around a hammer bigger than he is or a rogue's right to carry his own weight in poisons, grenades, and trick arrows. There's just so much violence committed by everyone on everyone else using all kinds of tools, after a while it starts to sound a little unreasonable to say that mages in particular are really threatening. For every crazy exceptional mage, like Quentin or Uldred, there are also crazy exceptional 'mundanes' like Meredith or Marjolaine.

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23rd Apr '13 7:48:26 AM SemiCasualObserver

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[[/folder]]
[[folder: Mages: Gameplay and Story Segregation]]
* As any templar will tell you, Mages are dangerous. They can use blood magic, bind demons, become abominations, and occasionally summons shades and undead to attack you. But the game doesn't really support the idea that homocidal mages are that much more dangerous than all the other homocidal maniacs in the city. This was an issue in DA1 as well - due partly to competitive balancing, an partly to the sheer diversity of kinds of enemies you could fight, there's not much to really prove that a random mage is more of a threat than a warrior or a rogue. Sure, the mage has blood magic, but no one questions the warrior's right to swing around a hammer bigger than he is or a rogue's right to carry his own weight in poisons, grenades, and trick arrows. There's just so much violence committed by everyone on everyone else using all kinds of tools, after a while it starts to sound a little unreasonable to say that mages in particular are really threatening. For every crazy exceptional mage, like Quentin or Uldred, there are also crazy exceptional 'mundanes' like Meredith or Marjolaine.

11th Apr '13 8:56:23 AM Ciabella

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11th Apr '13 8:53:12 AM Ciabella

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[[/folder]]
[[folder: Warden!Sibling/Avaline during Best Served Cold]]
Caver/Bethany's kidnapping during this quest makes no sense if they Grey Wardens. First of all: the Warden Keep is in another city. Hawke visits two secret meetings and is then informed by Karen that his/her sibling was kidnapped. By the way Karen tells you about this we can presume the deed was done some time ago. It couldn't be more than a day between both meetings, yet conspirators somehow managed to formulate a plan, go to another city, kidnap your sibling and drag them to Kirkwall. Secondly, don't Wardens have any sort of security in their Keep? Can anyone just walk in? Best Served Cold can happen after player did Legacy DLC which means the Keep was already attacked once, because of your sibling. You think they would be more careful after this incident. Avaline is already in Krikwall so she is more "available" she can be also the Guard-Captain by this point. Doesn't anyone of her co-workers or her own husband realize she is missing? If they do why they are not looking for her?

10th Apr '13 5:46:47 PM Mimimurlough

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25th Mar '13 4:19:05 PM Mimimurlough

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20th Feb '13 10:32:45 PM AJS

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** As far as he's concerned about Hawke, they are a mage that only uses their power for the good of the city, and considering he joins in act 2 he's only with Hawke a short while before they become Champion in which case nobody can touch them (especially since their mage power helped in defeated the Arishok in the first place). Bethany meanwhile he can only encounter in DLC, where's she's already part of the circle, with permission by Meredith to accompany them, or she's a Warden in which case she's exempt from Chantry law (presumably they allow Warden's to police their own mages, unless said Warden mage goes rogue like Anders). Or during the finale where the situation has already spiraled out of control and pro Mage Sebastian has (assuming Anders was killed) accused the Kirkwall templars of corruption and turned on them. Merril meanwhile is a Dalish and a trained First, and since the Chantry doesn't bother them regularly, presumably they allow the Dalish to police their own. Sebastian actually doesn't mind Merril anyway aside from her recklessness with Demons she doesn't push his buttons with anti Chantry ranting like Anders does. Anders meanwhile is technically an abomination. The Templar's will almost certainly execute him if turned in assuming he doesn't kill them first. They're be no peaceful way of sending him to the Circle. He'd be signing his death warrant if he turned him in and he presumably doesn't want Anders dead (until the finale anyway). Likewise with Merril in fact. She's a blood mage and has a demon pact. Templar's wouldn't take her alive.

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