History Headscratchers / DragonAgeII

13th Dec '17 1:03:01 AM DeadlyVampireKisses
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[[folder: What exactly was Danarius expecting?]]
* So, Magister McAsshole turns up in Kirkwall, lays a trap to get Fenris to show up, then.... what? Danarius put himself in an incredibly vulnerable position by walking up to the guy that wants to kill him more than just about anything else and has the skills to back it all up. Sure he had forces with him, but Fenris has killed almost overwhelming groups of people before and never backs down (as shown in his short story). Was there any outcome that was likely other than glowy hand through the face? Especially now that Fenris has allies. I know you can turn Fenris over, but Danarius acts surprised if you do, so that couldn't have been what he was expecting.
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18th Nov '17 8:34:04 AM N
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*** The Dalish have been somewhat nomadic for a long time. Some of them may relish the idea of having land of their own and head there asap, but many would just be used to frequently traveling or living in other regions. Depending on a clan's contact with other peoples, there are probably some Dalish that wouldn't even know about the option, as it's only been a few years. They'd also need to either travel through a couple other countries or across the Waking Sea to get from the Free Marches to that land, which they may not be able to do on top of possibly just not being interested.
25th Oct '17 11:15:06 PM LadyNorbert
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*** Huh, that's true. I hadn't considered the Blood Magic angle; that does make it more plausible.
25th Oct '17 12:49:34 AM GriffinPilgrim
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** See a few entries above for a rebuttal to that.
25th Oct '17 12:33:13 AM GriffinPilgrim
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*** The Qunari have no idea who the thief who stole the Tome Of Koslun from Orlais was. They don't know her name, what she looks like, hell they don't even know she is, in fact, a she. Castillon knows all of that and even knows her well enough to judge her actions to some extent.
25th Oct '17 12:28:22 AM GriffinPilgrim
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*** The Qunari have no idea who the thief who stole the Tome Of Koslun from Orlais was. They don't know her name, what she looks like, hell they don't even know she is, in fact, a she. Castillon knows all of that and even knows her well enough to judge her actions to some extent.
25th Oct '17 12:23:35 AM GriffinPilgrim
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*** Marethari loves Merrill like a daughter. She's never going to give up on protecting her.
25th Oct '17 12:20:03 AM GriffinPilgrim
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** He'd allowed Grace to mess his head up, make him think that a hostage would stop Hawke from interfering until their plan was complete. It was stupid but it was a stupid Grace had a lot of time to plant in his mind. Hell, given that Grace had Blood Magic it may have been more than just persuasion.
22nd Oct '17 6:18:10 PM LadyNorbert
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** The demon Merrill is talking to isn't in the Fade; he's trapped in a creepy statue in a cave in the physical world from which it is impossible for him to escape under his own power. Likely he was planning to subvert the opening of the mirror so that it would also open his prison. Merrill seems to know quite a lot about how said prison works (I'd guess by studying the flow of magic around it or similar) so presumably Marethari could figure the same stuff out and had six years to continue studying it while Merrill was elsewhere. Also I object to the idea that the Dalish can't admit that they may be wrong. They constantly explain that they have at best fragments of their history and lore left. They do have difficulty accepting that other elves can have valid lifestyles but that's different.

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** The demon Merrill is talking to isn't in the Fade; he's trapped in a creepy statue in a cave in the physical world from which it is impossible for him to escape under his own power. Likely he was planning to subvert the opening of the mirror so that it would also open his prison. Merrill seems to know quite a lot about how said prison works (I'd guess by studying the flow of magic around it or similar) similar), so presumably Marethari could figure the same stuff out and had six years to continue studying it while Merrill was elsewhere. Also Also, I object to the idea that the Dalish can't admit that they may be wrong. They constantly explain that they have at best fragments of their history and lore left. They do have difficulty accepting that other elves can have valid lifestyles lifestyles, but that's different.



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[[folder: Ser Thrask's remark in Act 3]]
* I like the quest "Best Served Cold," because I really feel like it showcases how much Hawke cares about their companions (and in my games it's always Bethany who gets taken, so I can go all BigBrotherInstinct), but Ser Thrask really confuses me. When Hawke reaches the group on the Wounded Coast, he says, "I suppose it was too much to hope that you wouldn't have come here." Really? You took Hawke's sibling/lover/best friend. What did you ''think'' Hawke was going to do, just let that go? It seems like a particularly stupid comment from a character whom I had, up to that point, liked a great deal.
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19th Oct '17 1:37:30 PM LadyNorbert
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** OP: I don't really mind Anders--and I don't doubt that he has a crush on Hawke--so much as the fact that there's no option to opt out gracefully. They've could've used the middle option on the dialogue wheel for "no thanks," but instead it's basically "yes", "aww yes", and "hell no". And given that people tend to automatically talk to their companions after personal quests (thanks to DA:O and the Mass Effect games), it feels like a form of railroading.
** In fairness there's a limit to how nice you can be when turning down romantic interest and Anders has a rather... fragile ego shall we say.
** ''Exactly'', i saw the same explanation on the DA O page when someone complained that s/he couldn't turn down Alistair without losing a few friendship points. It's the same situation, except that Anders would be a psychiatrist's field day.

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** OP: I don't really mind Anders--and I don't doubt that he has a crush on Hawke--so much as the fact that there's no option to opt out gracefully. They've could've used the middle option on the dialogue wheel for "no thanks," but instead it's basically "yes", "aww yes", and "hell no". And given that people tend to automatically talk to their companions after personal quests (thanks to DA:O and the Mass Effect ''Mass Effect'' games), it feels like a form of railroading.
** In fairness fairness, there's a limit to how nice you can be when turning down romantic interest and Anders has a rather... fragile ego shall we say.
** ''Exactly'', i I saw the same explanation on the DA O DA:O page when someone complained that s/he couldn't turn down Alistair without losing a few friendship points. It's the same situation, except that Anders would be a psychiatrist's field day.



So why a Mage-Templar ''war'' ? The problem was caused, in great part, by Orsino (who allowed a serial killer ForScience), Elthina (who did nothing to stop the problem) and Meredith who ruled all the city without mercy and who was fanatically determined to eradicate the Kirkwall Circle. So now that they're dead, why a war ? The problem was localised in kirkwall and the principal sources of the problem are dead, so why and how does a problem solved in Kirkwall cause a rebellion in the rest of the world ?

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So why a Mage-Templar ''war'' ? ''war''? The problem was caused, in great part, by Orsino (who allowed a serial killer ForScience), Elthina (who did nothing to stop the problem) and Meredith who ruled all the city without mercy and who was fanatically determined to eradicate the Kirkwall Circle. So now that they're dead, why a war ? war? The problem was localised in kirkwall Kirkwall and the principal sources of the problem are dead, so why and how does a problem solved in Kirkwall cause a rebellion in the rest of the world ?world?



** While there have always been tensions in the Circle, various sources in the franchise suggest they've been getting worse in recent years. As for Alistair, probably mages ''do'' have better deal in Ferelden. But Ferelden is one country and not a very important one on the world stage. In the Free Marches, Orlais, Antiva and so on things are not so good. Mages are getting more vocal which the Templars are responding to by becoming more opressive rather than by opening any kind of dialogue. Others in the Chantry, most notably the Divine herself, are trying to reach compromise but the Templar hardliners refuse to budge, which naturally creates more hardline mages. Whatever can be said about Anders' decision (and ''much'' can be said) he's not wrong that things are, overall, getting worse for mages, not better.
** So you have the Divine herself who is in favor of the mages, a country in which mages have a better deal than anywhere else (except Tevinter of course) and in Orlais (the country that until 30-40 years ago, ruled half of Thedas )there seem to have court mages (from what I saw of Inquisition) and mages condition is still getting worse ?

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** While there have always been tensions in the Circle, various sources in the franchise suggest they've been getting worse in recent years. As for Alistair, probably mages ''do'' have better deal in Ferelden. But Ferelden is one country and not a very important one on the world stage. In the Free Marches, Orlais, Antiva and so on things are not so good. Mages are getting more vocal which the Templars are responding to by becoming more opressive oppressive rather than by opening any kind of dialogue. Others in the Chantry, most notably the Divine herself, are trying to reach compromise but the Templar hardliners refuse to budge, which naturally creates more hardline mages. Whatever can be said about Anders' decision (and ''much'' can be said) he's not wrong that things are, overall, getting worse for mages, not better.
** So you have the Divine herself who is in favor of the mages, a country in which mages have a better deal than anywhere else (except Tevinter of course) and in Orlais (the country that until 30-40 years ago, ruled half of Thedas )there seem to have court mages (from what I saw of Inquisition) and mages condition is still getting worse ?worse?



** But aren't the Templars being controlled via their lyrium doses by the Chantry ? The Chantry should have a better control over them than your example had.

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** But aren't the Templars being controlled via their lyrium doses by the Chantry ? Chantry? The Chantry should have a better control over them than your example had.



** Weren't the Seekers especially created to prevent case like this ? what were they doing ? Plus, the Kirkwall issue ''is'' solved.

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** Weren't the Seekers especially created to prevent case like this ? this? what were they doing ? doing? Plus, the Kirkwall issue ''is'' solved.



** You mean that during the ''three'' years between Acts 2 and 3, when it was clear the Templars were the real leaders of the city and that Meredith prevented elections of a new viscount, when it was clear she was too extreme, the Seekers couldn't step in ? I have trouble believing that.

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** You mean that during the ''three'' years between Acts 2 and 3, when it was clear the Templars were the real leaders of the city and that Meredith prevented elections of a new viscount, when it was clear she was too extreme, the Seekers couldn't step in ? in? I have trouble believing that.



** May I point out that the Seekers is an ''hundreds'' year old order ? And that, as such, it should be better organized ? but I get your point.

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** May I point out that the Seekers of Truth is an ''hundreds'' year old order ? order? And that, as such, it should be better organized ? organized? but I get your point.



** Isn't the Inquisition already the 'left' hand of the divine ? A secret organisation that act in the shadows ?

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** Isn't the Inquisition already the 'left' hand of the divine ? divine? A secret organisation that act in the shadows ?shadows?



** When asked in ''Inquisition'', Cassandra admits that the Seekers did ''were'' monitoring the situation. They'd known about Meredith's abuses for years, but chose not to interfere directly because they also saw just how many blood mages and demons were infesting the city and were willing to accept extremes in such a situation. They simply dropped the ball until Kirkwall erupted into all out war thanks to Anders.

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** When asked in ''Inquisition'', Cassandra admits that the Seekers did ''were'' monitoring the situation. They'd known about Meredith's abuses for years, but chose not to interfere directly because they also saw just how many blood mages and demons were infesting the city and were willing to accept extremes in such a situation. They simply dropped the ball until Kirkwall erupted into all out all-out war thanks to Anders.



** Kirkwall is the biggest city in the Free Marches so putting a Circle there makes sense. As for why it stays remember most people, including the Templars, aren't privvy to the information we have about why Kirkwall is so messed up, magicaly speaking. So as far as they know moving the mages wouldn't help and might just corrupt other, more peaceful Circles. Also bare in mind that the really bad problems with the Kirkwall Circle are quite recent. It's always been a difficult Circle but it's only reached the level we see in game since Meredith took over and treated it as bad as she does.

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** Kirkwall is the biggest city in the Free Marches so putting a Circle there makes sense. As for why it stays remember most people, including the Templars, aren't privvy privy to the information we have about why Kirkwall is so messed up, magicaly magically speaking. So as far as they know know, moving the mages wouldn't help and might just corrupt other, more peaceful Circles. Also bare in mind that the really bad problems with the Kirkwall Circle are quite recent. It's always been a difficult Circle but it's only reached the level we see in game since Meredith took over and treated it as bad as she does.



** Also on the subject of Starkhaven, I'm pretty sure Kirkwall is bigger and in any case Starkhaven had a circle as well, before Decimus burnt it down. Prior to that not every mage in the Free Marches ended up in the Gallows.

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** Also on the subject of Starkhaven, I'm pretty sure Kirkwall is bigger and in any case Starkhaven had a circle Circle as well, before Decimus burnt it down. Prior to that that, not every mage in the Free Marches ended up in the Gallows.



** Fenris, you know that staying in the same place for six years will help your old master track you? And do you wish to escape him or to kill him ?

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** Fenris, you know that staying in the same place for six years will help your old master track you? And do you wish to escape him or to kill him ?him?



** There was also the "witness your rise to power". What rise to power ? I still am an errand boy, only for The Viscount/Meredith now instead of some Lowtown guy. I still must pick a side and I can't say "fuck this I'll lead the city" or ScrewThisImOuttahere.

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** There was also the "witness your rise to power". What rise to power ? power? I still am an errand boy, only for The Viscount/Meredith now instead of some Lowtown guy. I still must pick a side and I can't say "fuck this I'll lead the city" or ScrewThisImOuttahere.



** But it didn't seemed to that Hawke was treated differently in Act 2 and in Act 3. Or didn't I paid attention enough ?

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** But it didn't seemed seem to that Hawke was treated differently in Act 2 and in Act 3. Or didn't I paid pay attention enough ?enough?



* There are a few reason, first being a lack of focus. In most stories there is a central goal. In dragon age 2 it has a goal in the prolog and act 1 but then it loses it. In act 2-3 you are just running around doing random missions because Hawk feels like it. There are so many plots going on its easy to forget what the hell your doing when you enter an area and see 3-4 different quest markers. Lacking a central plot makes it harder to see story progression and easier to lose interest

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* There are a few reason, first being a lack of focus. In most stories there is a central goal. In dragon age 2 ''Dragon Age II'' it has a goal in the prolog prologue and act Act 1 but then it loses it. In act Acts 2-3 you are just running around doing random missions because Hawk Hawke feels like it. There are so many plots going on its on, it's easy to forget what the hell your you're doing when you enter an area and see 3-4 different quest markers. Lacking a central plot makes it harder to see story progression and easier to lose interest



** Add in all the stupid characters into the mix. Meradith is insane so I don't want to support her. Orsino let a blood mage murder my Ma because if he exposed it,mages would look bad. Either way I don't want to support these people I wanna go home and protect my dog. Elthina does absolutely nothing to help anyone in any way shape or form. She is probably the most useless character in useless character-ville. Keeper Marethari's actions are just baffling. She wants Merrill to come back so she decides to turn everyone against her and tells pall scary stories so he is so terrified of her he runs back into a monster that slaughtered a few of his friends. To top it off she allows a demon to possess her, doesn't tell anyone and then goes and gets killed. She pretty much screwed over her whole clan because Merrill ''MAY'' have been possessed, but unlike Merrill who had Hawke (the demon/carta/bandit/Qunari/dragon slayer) as backup, Marethari takes no precautions whatsoever and just says I can't beat you so go ahead and take me over.

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** Add in all the stupid characters into the mix. Meradith Meredith is insane so I don't want to support her. Orsino let a blood mage murder my Ma because if he exposed it,mages would look bad. Either way I don't want to support these people I wanna go home and protect my dog. Elthina does absolutely nothing to help anyone in any way shape or form. She is probably the most useless character in useless character-ville. Keeper Marethari's actions are just baffling. She wants Merrill to come back so she decides to turn everyone against her and tells pall scary stories so he is so terrified of her he runs back into a monster that slaughtered a few of his friends. To top it off she allows a demon to possess her, doesn't tell anyone and then goes and gets killed. She pretty much screwed over her whole clan because Merrill ''MAY'' have been possessed, but unlike Merrill who had Hawke (the demon/carta/bandit/Qunari/dragon slayer) as backup, Marethari takes no precautions whatsoever and just says I can't beat you so go ahead and take me over.



** Finally, the red lyrium that is never explained but drives a major plot point. First, I thought lyrium was toxic to humans to why the hell did Hawk even touch this stuff. What was it, why was it placed where it was, why would anyone screw around with red lyrium when no one even knows what the hell it is, how was it made, how did it bestow upon Meredith the ability to Mario jump and summon statues, did it control her or just make her more insane, did IT bring the statues to life to protect its host or is it just a hunk of insanity inducing rock with no will. Some vagueness can be good but making a major character be driving by something virtually unexplained is pushing it a bit for me. To bring back to the original question, people were sold on a game where you influence the story, that what all the interviews wanted to present. The final product wasn't what was advertised.
** And CharacterDerailment, don't forget the CharacterDerailment of Merril, Anders, heck, even Isabela has her character murdered.
** While you don't see Merrill for long in Origins, she is a very level-headed Dalish and focused on the mission, if just a little afraid of the humans. In DA:O she's someone that turned toward BloodMagic because a demon proposed her to do so, made a pact with this same demon (apparently forgetting that doing so is NOT a bright idea, never) and is turned into something like Liara was in ''VideoGame/MassEffect1'', only an even more shy, even more innocent, even more oblivious to innuendos, even more cute jailbait (I mean, does she look like an adult elf to you ?)
** We saw Merrill for the last half of one prologue in Origins and she had few lines then. She didn't ''have'' a character to derail. As for how she looks, jailbait is really pushing it. Yes she does look like an adult elf, if a young one. They redesigned ''all'' the elves and, as a species, they do tend to look a little young by human standards, as dwarves tend to look a little grizzled. Also Merrill is one of maybe three characters who actually thought through a demon deal. She's well aware of the risks and has taken steps to minimise them. It can be argued that the only reason her plan goes wrong is because of others' reactions.
** And, as I said, what's bugging me is that, for the few lines that she had, she didn't seemed as innocent as she's in 2.
** She's not innocent. She's a Blood Mage and a demon summoner and while neither of those things make her bad they don't scream innocent. What she is is sheltered. In Origins she's in her element, namely magic, which she has little trouble with even in 2. Listen to her battle dialogue; casting spells, even under violent situations, doesn't phase her. Social situations, particularly non-elven social situations, are her issue. Granted there are character traits present in 2 that aren't in Origins but again, she's around for maybe 15 minutes in Origins and doesn't speak much.
** ''Merril'', the one who want to be mugged, who fail to understand that she costs too much for Varric (he tells her), who fail so much at orientation that she need a ball of twine to not be lost and, who almost always ''fail'' to see Carver flirting with her. Either she's a brillant {{Troll}} or she took a few dozens level in dumbass between the two games.

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** Finally, the red lyrium that is never explained but drives a major plot point. First, I thought lyrium was toxic to humans to why the hell did Hawk Hawke even touch this stuff. What was it, why was it placed where it was, why would anyone screw around with red lyrium when no one even knows what the hell it is, how was it made, how did it bestow upon Meredith the ability to Mario jump and summon statues, did it control her or just make her more insane, did IT bring the statues to life to protect its host or is it just a hunk of insanity inducing rock with no will. Some vagueness can be good but making a major character be driving by something virtually unexplained is pushing it a bit for me. To bring back to the original question, people were sold on a game where you influence the story, that what all the interviews wanted to present. The final product wasn't what was advertised.
** And CharacterDerailment, don't forget the CharacterDerailment of Merril, Merrill, Anders, heck, even Isabela has her character murdered.
** While you don't see Merrill for long in Origins, she is a very level-headed Dalish and focused on the mission, if just a little afraid of the humans. In DA:O she's someone that turned toward BloodMagic because a demon proposed her to do so, made a pact with this same demon (apparently forgetting that doing so is NOT a bright idea, never) and is turned into something like Liara was in ''VideoGame/MassEffect1'', only an even more shy, even more innocent, even more oblivious to innuendos, even more cute jailbait (I mean, does she look like an adult elf to you ?)
you?)
** We saw Merrill for the last half of one prologue in Origins ''Origins'' and she had few lines then. She didn't ''have'' a character to derail. As for how she looks, jailbait jail bait is really pushing it. Yes she does look like an adult elf, if a young one. They redesigned ''all'' the elves and, as a species, they do tend to look a little young by human standards, as dwarves tend to look a little grizzled. Also Merrill is one of maybe three characters who actually thought through a demon deal. She's well aware of the risks and has taken steps to minimise them. It can be argued that the only reason her plan goes wrong is because of others' reactions.
** And, as I said, what's bugging me is that, for the few lines that she had, she didn't seemed seem as innocent as she's in 2.
II.
** She's not innocent. She's a Blood Mage and a demon summoner and while neither of those things make her bad they don't scream innocent. What she is is sheltered. In Origins ''Origins'' she's in her element, namely magic, which she has little trouble with even in 2.II. Listen to her battle dialogue; casting spells, even under violent situations, doesn't phase her. Social situations, particularly non-elven social situations, are her issue. Granted there are character traits present in 2 DAII that aren't in Origins ''Origins'' but again, she's around for maybe 15 minutes in Origins ''Origins'' and doesn't speak much.
** ''Merril'', ''Merrill'', the one who want wants to be mugged, who fail fails to understand that she costs too much for Varric (he tells her), who fail fails so much at orientation that she need needs a ball of twine to not be lost and, lost, and who almost always ''fail'' ''fails'' to see Carver flirting with her. Either she's a brillant brilliant {{Troll}} or she took a few dozens level in dumbass between the two games.



** Failing to understand that Varric's bribing everyone for your safety even when he tells you that the 'nothing' that happened to you is costing him too much ''is'' rather stupid. Blowing Hawke's bluff ('There's a fire!' 'But no Hawke there's not') when it's clear, if you know him/her for more than ten minutes, that it's a bluff ''is'' stupid and, I think, has nothing to do with human customs (also, don't the last situation happened in Act 2, where Merrill knows Hawke for three years ?).

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** Failing to understand that Varric's bribing everyone for your safety even when he tells you that the 'nothing' that happened to you is costing him too much ''is'' rather stupid. Blowing Hawke's bluff ('There's a fire!' 'But no Hawke there's not') when it's clear, if you know him/her for more than ten minutes, that it's a bluff ''is'' stupid and, I think, has nothing to do with human customs (also, don't the last situation happened in Act 2, where Merrill knows Hawke for three years ?).years?).



** Given as one of your issues is a lack of good Templars ignoring Cullen in 2 is a tad odd, as he is a good Templar, albeit still too indoctrinated. As is Ser Karras. And the Templar recruits you can chat to. And the one you rescue from a demon cult. As for good mages you've got Merrill, Alain, Bethany, Terrie, Ella... Sure there are more examples of extremists on both sides but that's hardly surprising; the game is set in a flashpoint. But there are still plenty of examples of both sides' points.
** But most of those good mages/ Templars are painfully absent from the endgame, wich make a case of GreyAndGreyMorality into one of BlackAndBlackMorality.

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** Given as one of your issues is a lack of good Templars Templars, ignoring Cullen in 2 DAII is a tad odd, as he is a good Templar, albeit still too indoctrinated. As is Ser Karras. And the Templar recruits with whom you can chat to.chat. And the one you rescue from a demon cult. As for good mages you've got Merrill, Alain, Bethany, Terrie, Ella... Sure there are more examples of extremists on both sides but that's hardly surprising; the game is set in a flashpoint. But there are still plenty of examples of both sides' points.
** But most of those good mages/ Templars are painfully absent from the endgame, wich which make a case of GreyAndGreyMorality into one of BlackAndBlackMorality.



* Another minor thing is the fact that Bethany's your sister because it means Hawke can't have a neutral opinion on the matter. And this will be the case through the whole game.

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* Another minor thing is the fact that Bethany's your sister sister, because it means Hawke can't have a neutral opinion on the matter. And this will be the case through the whole game.



** Varric's the storyteller. He doesn't need a nickname for himself, as he tells Isabela. I mean, you're not ''wrong'', but still.



** Damnit I had hoped no one had noticed that yet so I could fix it without noticing. By the way Chauncy I did mean Lenin its works better as an analogy because they where both WellIntentionedExtremists who honestly believed in their causes.

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** Damnit I had hoped no one had noticed that yet so I could fix it without noticing. By the way Chauncy way, Chauncy, I did mean Lenin its - it works better as an analogy because they where both WellIntentionedExtremists who honestly believed in their causes.



** While this is almost certainly a gameplay/story issue (and one that annoyed me like hell, by the way) it is infact possible to teleport in Dragon Age, just extremely rare and nearly impossible. If your whole body enters the fade and there is a rift in the veil at another point, its possible to leave via that rift, thus 'teleporting' to some degree. See: the beginning of Dragon age Inquisition where the main character basically teleports into a room with the help of another entity. This does not mean however that people should be able to teleport all over the damn place.

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** While this is almost certainly a gameplay/story issue (and one that annoyed me like hell, by the way) it is infact in fact possible to teleport in Dragon Age, ''Dragon Age'', just extremely rare and nearly impossible. If your whole body enters the fade and there is a rift in the veil at another point, its it's possible to leave via that rift, thus 'teleporting' to some degree. See: the beginning of Dragon age Inquisition where the main character basically teleports into a room with the help of another entity. This does not mean however that people should be able to teleport all over the damn place.



** Despite Gamlen's efforts to the contrary, its apparent that the Amells are still remembered fondly amongst the nobility of Kirkwall, which points as a reason why it was never removed.

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** Despite Gamlen's efforts to the contrary, its it's apparent that the Amells are still remembered fondly amongst the nobility of Kirkwall, which points as a reason why it was never removed.



** It's not just his/her voice that identifies Hawke as a Fereldan. Many Kirkwallers know Hawke is Fereldan at a glance and Isabela is able to spot it right away based on his appearance. On the other hand, some Fereldan refugees mistake Hawke for a Kirkwaller based on the way he's dressed.

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** It's not just his/her voice that identifies Hawke as a Fereldan. Many Kirkwallers know Hawke is Fereldan at a glance glance, and Isabela is able to spot it right away based on his his/her appearance. On the other hand, some Fereldan refugees mistake Hawke for a Kirkwaller based on the way he's s/he's dressed.



* Is there any reason given as to why a devout man like Sebastian continues to follow Hawke, despite Hawke either being an apostate or at the very least working with apostates. I know he occasionally references things like Merrill's status as a blood mage during idle banter; my problem is that he never so much as commented on it initally or gave a reason for why he decided to keep traveling with Hawke in the first place unlike the rest of the cast. Aveline treated the Hawke family as a sort of an EnemyMine situation due to the Blight, and eventualy befriended them. Fenris is visibly upset by the composition of Hawke's party, but initially sticks around out of a sense of gratitude. Varric sought out the Hawke siblings and for him the apostate aspect was probably a selling point. Anders and Merrill obviously have no problem being apostates themselves; and Isabela is well... Isabela. Sebastian by contrast joins up for his personal quest and just never seems to leave.

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* Is there any reason given as to why a devout man like Sebastian continues to follow Hawke, despite Hawke either being an apostate or at the very least working with apostates. I know he occasionally references things like Merrill's status as a blood mage during idle banter; my problem is that he never so much as commented on it initally or gave a reason for why he decided to keep traveling with Hawke in the first place unlike the rest of the cast. Aveline treated the Hawke family as a sort of an EnemyMine situation due to the Blight, and eventualy eventually befriended them. Fenris is visibly upset by the composition of Hawke's party, but initially sticks around out of a sense of gratitude. Varric sought out the Hawke siblings and for him the apostate aspect was probably a selling point. Anders and Merrill obviously have no problem being apostates themselves; and Isabela is is, well... Isabela. Sebastian Sebastian, by contrast contrast, joins up for his personal quest and just never seems to leave.






** I know its kind of a nitpick I thought that it should be brought up if only because the way mages are treated is a pretty huge part of the games plot.

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** I know its it's kind of a nitpick I thought that it should be brought up if only because the way mages are treated is a pretty huge part of the games game's plot.



** Actually, he does try some of those things--he ''was'' a part of an underground mage rebellion, and he ''was'' gathering allies. The public did start favoring the mages--remember the beginning of Act III? But Hawke never really gets involved because Anders deliberately won't involve him/her in the actual rebellion. But Meredith gets worse and the rebellion is all but destroyed over the course of the game. Blowing up the Chantry was his final, desperate act for action. In his mind, mages were going to stay oppressed unless something *big* happened. So he forced everyone's hand. Anders did not expect to live through bombing the Chantry. He never called himself the leader of the rebellion. He *wanted* to live, to a degree, but he also knew he wouldn't deserve it if he did. His plan hung on the crux of Meredith flipping shit and doing exactly what she had wanted to do--an Annulment. Because of that, rebellion was incited.

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** Actually, he does try some of those things--he ''was'' a part of an underground mage rebellion, and he ''was'' gathering allies. The public did start favoring the mages--remember the beginning of Act III? 3? But Hawke never really gets involved because Anders deliberately won't involve him/her in the actual rebellion. But Meredith gets worse and the rebellion is all but destroyed over the course of the game. Blowing up the Chantry was his final, desperate act for action. In his mind, mages were going to stay oppressed unless something *big* happened. So he forced everyone's hand. Anders did not expect to live through bombing the Chantry. He never called himself the leader of the rebellion. He *wanted* to live, to a degree, but he also knew he wouldn't deserve it if he did. His plan hung on the crux of Meredith flipping shit and doing exactly what she had wanted to do--an Annulment. Because of that, rebellion was incited.



** Not really, the American Civil War didn't end in Genocide, the Korean and Vietnam wars didn't end in genocide, really you would have an easier time picking civil wars that did end in genocide. But your premise is flawed since it requires all chantry members, all Templars and all of the normal populace to be fiercely anti-mage, when even after what Anders did you have the head of the Chantry who is pro-mage, even after an attempt was made on her life, and is complicit with helping the Mages break free of the Lord Seeker's illegal imprisonment, you have plenty of Templars who aren't "they're a mage kill it" such as end of Act III Cullen and Evangeline from Asunder, and plenty of named characters who are pro-Mage in addition to the Mage Rail Road (made up of friends or family of mages along with sympathetic figures) and depending on your choices the Hero of Ferelden, the King of Ferelden, and the Champion of Kirkwall.

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** Not really, the American Civil War didn't end in Genocide, the Korean and Vietnam wars didn't end in genocide, really you would have an easier time picking civil wars that did end in genocide. But your premise is flawed since it requires all chantry members, all Templars and all of the normal populace to be fiercely anti-mage, when even after what Anders did you have the head of the Chantry who is pro-mage, even after an attempt was made on her life, and is complicit with helping the Mages break free of the Lord Seeker's illegal imprisonment, you have plenty of Templars who aren't "they're a mage kill it" it," such as end of Act III 3 Cullen and Evangeline from Asunder, ''Asunder'', and plenty of named characters who are pro-Mage in addition to the Mage Rail Road (made up of friends or family of mages along with sympathetic figures) and depending on your choices the Hero of Ferelden, the King of Ferelden, and the Champion of Kirkwall.



** Alright then, what about Redcliffe and Meredith's backstory? How would the above poster argue those? In Redcliffe Connor is a mage, who with very little training, calls a demon and ends up killing half the village before the Warden turns up and can, in game, destroy all of Redcliffe. He's a child, he's surrounded by a caring family with all the facilities money can pay and yet he falls pray to a demon - for very good reasons - and kills half his village. Now Connor himself isn't the issue but all those villagers who have lost their families, do you really think they are going to agree with mages being freed from the Chantry especially if something similar could happen again? Something's all well and good until its in your own backyard. Now Meredith knows how dangerous mages are, her sister's changing into an abomination wipes out her entire family and over 70 people. I don't think it was an coincidence that Meredith was sent to the Chantry rather than family, I mean what if she turned out to be the same? There's also the merchant who gives you the Mage Underground quests in the docks who says its because her sister was made tranquil even though she was soft and sweet and utterly defenceless - which in my mind sounds perfect for a demon to come a-calling. Perhaps she was offered it rather than her Harrowing? I always got the feeling that not only does the Circle keep other people safe from mages but mages free from other people.

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** Alright All right then, what about Redcliffe and Meredith's backstory? How would the above poster argue those? In Redcliffe Redcliffe, Connor is a mage, who mage who, with very little training, calls a demon and ends up killing half the village before the Warden turns up and can, in game, destroy all of Redcliffe. He's a child, he's surrounded by a caring family with all the facilities money can pay and yet he falls pray to a demon - for very good reasons - and kills half his village. Now Connor himself isn't the issue but all those villagers who have lost their families, do you really think they are going to agree with mages being freed from the Chantry especially if something similar could happen again? Something's all well and good until its it's in your own backyard. Now Meredith knows how dangerous mages are, her sister's changing into an abomination wipes out her entire family and over 70 people. I don't think it was an a coincidence that Meredith was sent to the Chantry rather than family, I mean what if she turned out to be the same? There's also the merchant who gives you the Mage Underground quests in the docks who says its it's because her sister was made tranquil even though she was soft and sweet and utterly defenceless defenseless - which in my mind sounds perfect for a demon to come a-calling. Perhaps she was offered it rather than her Harrowing? I always got the feeling that not only does the Circle keep other people safe from mages but mages free from other people.



** Once again, you confuse power with corruption. Tevinter is a horrible, slave-mongering dystopia because its ruled by horrible people who just happen to be mages. If they were to have no powers, they'd be just as horrible as ever. Magic simply makes it easier for them to impose their will on others. They actually did have a Circle system before, but that was subverted by politics, not mind-control. The average mage is just some random person who woke up one day with new powers. Ripping them away from their homes, isolating them with people religiously instructed to barely tolerate them, and then using them as weapons instead of people just results in a lot of powerful people who now have a grudge against you. It doesn't work. The mages need instruction and maybe some level of removal from others, but the current system is a horribly designed mess that fools like Fenris endorse because they just want mages gone, not helped or really managed. This whole rebellion shows just how it was unsustainable. For all your complaints, the organizations that do provide mages some level of freedom or just treat them as people actually do reach some better results than the Circle. There needs to be a system to handle mages, but the current set-up is horrendously flawed.

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** Once again, you confuse power with corruption. Tevinter is a horrible, slave-mongering dystopia because its it's ruled by horrible people who just happen to be mages. If they were to have no powers, they'd be just as horrible as ever. Magic simply makes it easier for them to impose their will on others. They actually did have a Circle system before, but that was subverted by politics, not mind-control. The average mage is just some random person who woke up one day with new powers. Ripping them away from their homes, isolating them with people religiously instructed to barely tolerate them, and then using them as weapons instead of people just results in a lot of powerful people who now have a grudge against you. It doesn't work. The mages need instruction and maybe some level of removal from others, but the current system is a horribly designed mess that fools like Fenris endorse because they just want mages gone, not helped or really managed. This whole rebellion shows just how it was unsustainable. For all your complaints, the organizations that do provide mages some level of freedom or just treat them as people actually do reach some better results than the Circle. There needs to be a system to handle mages, but the current set-up is horrendously flawed.



** This may be a game but its also a story. The story element is very important here. The game is being relayed to us through a story teller, the game is organized into Acts. We meet plenty of non combat npcs in this game. We could have stood to meet more good apostates and mages. There was plenty of opportunity for us to meet more good mages than we do in this game. What sealed the deal for me was the secret mage-templar alliance. You literally have no opportunity to reason with them and it would have been the perfect opportunity to show the player that there is another way, that apostates are largely reasonable people. If there needed to be a fight, it could have been a battle against some other party, say a group of bounty hunters looking to bust up the alliance for a quick buck. And you could fight to save this underground alliance. Orsino was another opportunity to show a reasonable mage but the thing he becomes at the end makes it clear that he's been consorting with the mage who killed your mother and that he had to have had a pretty good idea what that mage was up to if he was able to perform the same rituals. Most of the occasions the story had to show you sympathetic mages, it discards. Which means the story is either poorly written or we're meant to think that, whether all mages are evil or just some, mages as a whole are too volatile and dangerous to be allowed to run around free.

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** This may be a game but its it's also a story. The story element is very important here. The game is being relayed to us through a story teller, the game is organized into Acts. We meet plenty of non combat npcs [=NPCs=] in this game. We could have stood to meet more good apostates and mages. There was plenty of opportunity for us to meet more good mages than we do in this game. What sealed the deal for me was the secret mage-templar mage-Templar alliance. You literally have no opportunity to reason with them and it would have been the perfect opportunity to show the player that there is another way, that apostates are largely reasonable people. If there needed to be a fight, it could have been a battle against some other party, say a group of bounty hunters looking to bust up the alliance for a quick buck. And you could fight to save this underground alliance. Orsino was another opportunity to show a reasonable mage but the thing he becomes at the end makes it clear that he's been consorting with the mage who killed your mother and that he had to have had a pretty good idea what that mage was up to if he was able to perform the same rituals. Most of the occasions the story had to show you sympathetic mages, it discards. Which means the story is either poorly written or we're meant to think that, whether all mages are evil or just some, mages as a whole are too volatile and dangerous to be allowed to run around free.



** Orsino knew the magic grafted bodies together and reanimated them. That's what Quentin uses it for and thats what Orsino uses it for. He couldn't be ignorant to that fact and still use the magic roughly the same way Quentin uses it. And the thing your side misses about this argument is that even if there are a few good apostates out there, every scenario we're in reinforces the idea that its all too easy for these walking powder kegs to explode with disastrous results. Even if it was only one out of ten, when you see the sheer devastation they can unleash, it totally justifies the normal practices of the templars. And if the game is anything to go by, its more like 9 out of 10. If you were an ordinary citizen living with near constant demon and blood mage attacks, tell me you wouldn't be in full support of the templars.

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** Orsino knew the magic grafted bodies together and reanimated them. That's what Quentin uses it for and thats what Orsino uses it for. He couldn't be ignorant to that fact and still use the magic roughly the same way Quentin uses it. And the thing your side misses about this argument is that even if there are a few good apostates out there, every scenario we're in reinforces the idea that its it's all too easy for these walking powder kegs to explode with disastrous results. Even if it was only one out of ten, when you see the sheer devastation they can unleash, it totally justifies the normal practices of the templars. Templars. And if the game is anything to go by, its it's more like 9 out of 10. If you were an ordinary citizen living with near constant demon and blood mage attacks, tell me you wouldn't be in full support of the templars.Templars.



* Wouldn't it have done Tallis a bit better of finding someone to work with that may not potentially have a massive grudge against the Qunari? I understand that this really only applies if the DLC is played after Act II but it still seems that after that point Hawke and company would be a really risky choice, even if she managed to keep them in the dark throughout the entirety.

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* Wouldn't it have done Tallis a bit better of finding someone to work with that may not potentially have a massive grudge against the Qunari? I understand that this really only applies if the DLC is played after Act II 2, but it still seems that after that point Hawke and company would be a really risky choice, even if she managed to keep them in the dark throughout the entirety.



** Its not clear what is actually something told by Varric and what is just part of the actual flashback narrative. We can safely assume that most of the inane stuff Varric either skipped, or is stuff that Varric glossed over. "During this time, Hawke spent a lot of time delivering stuff to people despite being Champion. I guess it was a habit he picked up. More importantly, we learned that...." Then again, Cassandra might have been demanding details like that; interrogators - despite what Hollywood would have you believe - tend to spend long periods of time talking with their interviewees, putting together details and asking a lot of questions, sometimes about seemingly inane things. You never know when a detail rattling around in someone's head could be vital.

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** Its It's not clear what is actually something told by Varric and what is just part of the actual flashback narrative. We can safely assume that most of the inane stuff Varric either skipped, or is stuff that Varric glossed over. "During this time, Hawke spent a lot of time delivering stuff to people despite being Champion. I guess it was a habit he picked up. More importantly, we learned that...." Then again, Cassandra might have been demanding details like that; interrogators - despite what Hollywood would have you believe - tend to spend long periods of time talking with their interviewees, putting together details and asking a lot of questions, sometimes about seemingly inane things. You never know when a detail rattling around in someone's head could be vital.



** That's a headscratcher of its own; why did the crows attack Hawke?
** It actually depends on what you did during the prologue. A note found on one of the assassins reveals they were hired by either the family of Friedrich (the noble you killed to gain membership in the Red Iron) or Cavrill (the merchant you robbed in order to join Athenril's gang).

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** That's a headscratcher of its own; why did the crows Crows attack Hawke?
** It actually depends on what you did during the prologue. A note found on one of the assassins reveals they were hired by either the family of Friedrich (the noble you killed to gain membership in the Red Iron) or Cavrill Cavril (the merchant you robbed robbed/intimidated in order to join Athenril's gang).



* Let's say that throughout all the years s/he lived in Kirkwall Hawke has been fanatically pro-mage. Every templar who dared lay their hands on an apostate was swiftly drained of their blood and reduced to ash. Near the end of Act III Hawke has just finished dealing with some difficult blood mages and is just about to begin finishing a plan to assassinate Meredith with the remaining saner rebels when suddenly Cullen shows up, led by a traitor and with a contingent of loyalist Templars in tow. Now this is the same guy who's spent years talking about how Templars have an inherent right to do whatever they please with mages. He's always opposed everything Hawke stands for. And now he and his squad are out in the wilderness, completely at Hawke's mercy. Seems like the perfect time to loosen the Templar grip on Kirkwall a little more right? Nope. Instead Hawke decides to let Cullen make a mass arrest (something s/he has never allowed to ''any'' Templar). [[FlatWhat What]].

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* Let's say that throughout all the years s/he lived in Kirkwall Hawke has been fanatically pro-mage. Every templar who dared lay their hands on an apostate was swiftly drained of their blood and reduced to ash. Near the end of Act III 3, Hawke has just finished dealing with some difficult blood mages and is just about to begin finishing a plan to assassinate Meredith with the remaining saner rebels when suddenly Cullen shows up, led by a traitor and with a contingent of loyalist Templars in tow. Now this is the same guy who's spent years talking about how Templars have an inherent right to do whatever they please with mages. He's always opposed everything Hawke stands for. And now he and his squad are out in the wilderness, completely at Hawke's mercy. Seems like the perfect time to loosen the Templar grip on Kirkwall a little more right? Nope. Instead Hawke decides to let Cullen make a mass arrest (something s/he has never allowed to ''any'' Templar). [[FlatWhat What]].



** There are problems with that logic. A) Hawke has never met the Divine and wouldn't know of her stance, so he/she couldn't count on the Chantry not going on another Exalted March against Kirkwall. B) The novel Asunder takes place a year after the big finale of DAII and at that point no other circles have rebelled. Varrik's conversation with Cassandra takes place three years after the events of the game (according to the "World of Thedas Vol. 1" that that puts Act III of the game at 9:37 with the events of Asunder and Cassandra's interrogation of Varric at 9:40), when everything truly has gone straight to hell. C) See B. At that exact point the civil war hadn't happened yet, and Hawke would have no knowledge of the situation in Orlais. From a Pro-Mage Hawke's perspective they just openly declared war on the entire Templar order, they need to get the hell out of dodge before the Templars amass their own armies (as well as volunteer hordes of faithful Andrastians) and descended upon the city (and we know that in the Pro-Mage ending the Templars do retake Kirkwall, just too late to catch Hawke and any of the party).

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** There are problems with that logic. A) Hawke has never met the Divine and wouldn't know of her stance, so he/she couldn't count on the Chantry not going on another Exalted March against Kirkwall. B) The novel Asunder ''Asunder'' takes place a year after the big finale of DAII and at that point no other circles have rebelled. Varrik's Varric's conversation with Cassandra takes place three years after the events of the game (according to the "World ''World of Thedas Vol. 1" that that 1,'' which puts Act III 3 of the game at 9:37 with the events of Asunder ''Asunder'' and Cassandra's interrogation of Varric at 9:40), when everything truly has gone straight to hell. C) See B. At that exact point the civil war hadn't happened yet, and Hawke would have no knowledge of the situation in Orlais. From a Pro-Mage Hawke's perspective they just openly declared war on the entire Templar order, they need to get the hell out of dodge before the Templars amass their own armies (as well as volunteer hordes of faithful Andrastians) and descended upon the city (and we know that in the Pro-Mage ending the Templars do retake Kirkwall, just too late to catch Hawke and any of the party).



* I cannot puzzle out why, in-universe or out, Grand Cleric Elthina is popular. Sure she's nice enough as a person but in her role actual role she is the embodiment of moral cowardice. The Qunari issue, hate preachers amongst her people, she does nothing. Told to her face that someone in her employ is misusing her authority, she does nothing. It takes someone being murdered in her house to snap her out of it and even then all she does is not help the bad guy. It's even worse with Act 3. Whatever one might think of the mages a blind man could see that Meredith is going nuts and massively overstepping her authority. Elthina could put an end to that in a moment. She is the authority to which Meredith answers. She could just say "Step down, let a new Vicount be installed and if you don't calm down on the mages there's going to be trouble so cool off or Cullen gets a sudden promotion." There, problem solved (Of course Meredith is Lyrium Idol crazy so that might not work but Elthina doesn't know that). What does she do? Oh yeah, nothing. She lets people suffer and die when she could easily and probably totally safely help, all the while praising the glories of neutrality. So why in the hell do people like her?
** Probably because she's one of the very few authority figures in the game that isn't a complete lunatic. She also proves to be the only thing keeping Meredith on a leash in this game. Given how crazy everybody else is come Act III, she's a breath of fresh air.
** I like Elthina, and I found her story to be very sad: she's a good woman, compassionate and caring, and I don't think she really wants to be political--she wants to be devoted to the Maker. But every single major player in ''Dragon Age 2''--Petrice, Meredith, Orsino, Anders--is trying to escalate things into all-out war, in a very black-and-white, us-versus-them way, and both sides of the mage/templar conflict have good arguments, and she's being thrust into the role of mediator in a fight where people can (and do) blow up buildings and commit religious terrorism. And Hawke may be good at [[TakeAThirdOption taking third options]], but she's not. And she dies for it. Could she have done more? Absolutely, and Hawke can call her out on this. But she's in a really tough position for the entire game, one that she doesn't entirely want or deserve.

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* I cannot puzzle out why, in-universe or out, Grand Cleric Elthina is popular. Sure she's nice enough as a person but in her role actual role she is the embodiment of moral cowardice. The Qunari issue, hate preachers amongst her people, she does nothing. Told to her face that someone in her employ is misusing her authority, she does nothing. It takes someone being murdered in her house to snap her out of it and even then all she does is not help the bad guy. It's even worse with Act 3. Whatever one might think of the mages a blind man could see that Meredith is going nuts and massively overstepping her authority. Elthina could put an end to that in a moment. She is the authority to which Meredith answers. She could just say "Step down, let a new Vicount Viscount be installed and if you don't calm down on the mages there's going to be trouble so cool off or Cullen gets a sudden promotion." There, problem solved solved. (Of course course, Meredith is Lyrium Idol crazy crazy, so that might not work work, but Elthina doesn't know that). that.) What does she do? Oh yeah, nothing. She lets people suffer and die when she could easily and probably totally safely help, all the while praising the glories of neutrality. So why in the hell do people like her?
** Probably because she's one of the very few authority figures in the game that isn't a complete lunatic. She also proves to be the only thing keeping Meredith on a leash in this game. Given how crazy everybody else is come Act III, 3, she's a breath of fresh air.
** I like Elthina, and I found her story to be very sad: she's a good woman, compassionate and caring, and I don't think she really wants to be political--she wants to be devoted to the Maker. But every single major player in ''Dragon Age 2''--Petrice, II''--Petrice, Meredith, Orsino, Anders--is trying to escalate things into all-out war, in a very black-and-white, us-versus-them way, and both sides of the mage/templar mage/Templar conflict have good arguments, and she's being thrust into the role of mediator in a fight where people can (and do) blow up buildings and commit religious terrorism. And Hawke may be good at [[TakeAThirdOption taking third options]], but she's not. And she dies for it. Could she have done more? Absolutely, and Hawke can call her out on this. But she's in a really tough position for the entire game, one that she doesn't entirely want or deserve.



[[folder: Warden!Sibling/Avaline during Best Served Cold]]
* Carver/Bethany's kidnapping during this quest makes no sense if they Grey Wardens. First of all: the Warden Keep is in another city. Hawke visits two secret meetings and is then informed by Karen that his/her sibling was kidnapped. By the way Karen tells you about this we can presume the deed was done some time ago. It couldn't be more than a day to two between both meetings, yet conspirators somehow managed to formulate a plan, go to another city, kidnap your sibling and drag them to Kirkwall. Secondly, don't Wardens have any sort of security in their Keep? Can anyone just walk in? Best Served Cold can happen after player did Legacy DLC which means the Keep was already attacked once, because of your sibling. You think they would be more careful after this incident. Avaline is already in Krikwall so she is more "available" she can be also the Guard-Captain by this point. Doesn't anyone of her co-workers or her own husband realize she is missing? If they do why they are not looking for her? Either way kidnapping any of these three people (Carver, Bethany, Aveline) is rather stupid move. Thrask would not only have Hawke on his tail, but also the City Guard/Grey Wardens.
** a) As a nitpick, it's spelled Aveline, b) given that your Warden travelled all over Ferelden and east into Orzammar in DA:O, it's not unreasonable to expect Carver/Bethany could be doing some very far-flung patrols ([[WildMassGuessing in fact, the Wardens--lacking a Blight to fend off--might very well have pegged that serious trouble was brewing in Kirkwall and decided to keep an eye on it]]), c) Aveline is also someone who's expected to do patrols and get her hands dirty--if she were missing for a serious amount of time people would start to get worried, but as it is Donnic and her co-workers probably just thought she was involved in some sort of guard work out on the Wounded Coast.
** Problem is it's the City Guard we are talking about here. It was shown a few times that guards have a schedule, which can be easily checked. Donnic or any other of her co-workers could easily check if she was having a patrol or not. It's highly unlickely that her patrols would be missing from this schedule, since she is head of the City Guard and they have to know where to find her is something goes wrong and her help is needed. I don't believe Aveline wouldn't inform someone when she was going out with Hawke too. She is too responsible for that. So they couldn't simply assume she was running around with the Champion. It's also implied she was missing from a few hours to a whole day. It would be strange if her husband, who lives with her, didn't realize something is wrong.

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[[folder: Warden!Sibling/Avaline Warden!Sibling/Aveline during Best "Best Served Cold]]
Cold"]]
* Carver/Bethany's kidnapping during this quest makes no sense if they Grey Wardens. First of all: the Warden Keep is in another city. Hawke visits two secret meetings and is then informed by Karen Keran that his/her sibling was kidnapped. By the way Karen Keran tells you about this we can presume the deed was done some time ago. It couldn't be more than a day to two between both meetings, yet conspirators somehow managed to formulate a plan, go to another city, kidnap your sibling and drag them to Kirkwall. Secondly, don't Wardens have any sort of security in their Keep? Can anyone just walk in? Best "Best Served Cold Cold" can happen after player did Legacy DLC the ''Legacy'' DLC, which means the Keep was already attacked once, because of your sibling. You think they would be more careful after this incident. Avaline Aveline is already in Krikwall Kirkwall so she is more "available" she can be also the Guard-Captain by this point. Doesn't Don't anyone of her co-workers or her own husband realize she is missing? If they do why they are not looking for her? Either way kidnapping any of these three people (Carver, Bethany, Aveline) is rather stupid move. Thrask would not only have Hawke on his tail, but also the City Guard/Grey Wardens.
** a) As a nitpick, it's spelled Aveline, b) given Given that your Warden travelled traveled all over Ferelden and east into Orzammar in DA:O, it's not unreasonable to expect that Warden Carver/Bethany could be doing some very far-flung patrols ([[WildMassGuessing in fact, the Wardens--lacking a Blight to fend off--might very well have pegged that serious trouble was brewing in Kirkwall and decided to keep an eye on it]]), c) b) Aveline is also someone who's expected to do patrols and get her hands dirty--if she were missing for a serious amount of time people would start to get worried, but as it is Donnic and her co-workers probably just thought she was involved in some sort of guard work out on the Wounded Coast.
** Problem is it's the City Guard we are talking about here. It was shown a few times that guards have a schedule, which can be easily checked. Donnic or any other of her co-workers could easily check if she was having a patrol or not. It's highly unlickely unlikely that her patrols would be missing from this schedule, since she is head of the City Guard and they have to know where to find her is something goes wrong and her help is needed. I don't believe Aveline wouldn't inform someone when she was going out with Hawke too. She is too responsible for that. So they couldn't simply assume she was running around with the Champion. It's also implied she was missing from a few hours to a whole day. It would be strange if her husband, who lives with her, didn't realize something is wrong.



* As any templar will tell you, Mages are dangerous. They can use blood magic, bind demons, become abominations, and occasionally summons shades and undead to attack you. But the game doesn't really support the idea that homocidal mages are that much more dangerous than all the other homocidal maniacs in the city. This was an issue in DA1 as well - due partly to competitive balancing, an partly to the sheer diversity of kinds of enemies you could fight, there's not much to really prove that a random mage is more of a threat than a warrior or a rogue. Sure, the mage has blood magic, but no one questions the warrior's right to swing around a hammer bigger than he is or a rogue's right to carry his own weight in poisons, grenades, and trick arrows. There's just so much violence committed by everyone on everyone else using all kinds of tools, after a while it starts to sound a little unreasonable to say that mages in particular are really threatening. For every crazy exceptional mage, like Quentin or Uldred, there are also crazy exceptional 'mundanes' like Meredith or Marjolaine.
** One assumes spells like Earthquake, Tempest, Blizard, and Inferno do more property damage than the ingame engine will allow. Then you bring in things like virulent walking bomb...it's unpleasant. The main issue, however, is that if a warrior or a rogue goes on a rampage, they're completely responsible for their own actions and can be brought to justice accordingly. A mage can be possessed at any time given a slight slip in judgement or alertness, and a pride or desire abomination can do considerably more damage than a rogue or a warrior. It's best to be preemptive about that.
** True, one does not need to be a mage to be a dangerous lunatic. But the damage a single mundane person and a single mage can do is on entirely different scales. Let's compare Quentin to, say, Ser Alrik: while they're both monsters, Ser Alrik needs the support of his fellow templars to be any kind of threat to Hawke, and ultimately he's just a minor villain that's quickly disposed of. Quentin on his own is able to command a small army of demons, operates without impunity for years and deals an immense blow to Hawke personally. Meredith poses an immense danger to Hawke and to Kirkwall, but that's only because of the lyrium idol, an immensely ancient and powerful artifact that was only acquired under a specific set of circumstances. Orsino is able to use the blood of a few dead mages to transform into an undead monster that's nearly as dangerous as Meredith, and he could have done this at any time.

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* As any templar Templar will tell you, Mages mages are dangerous. They can use blood magic, bind demons, become abominations, and occasionally summons shades and undead to attack you. But the game doesn't really support the idea that homocidal homicidal mages are that much more dangerous than all the other homocidal homicidal maniacs in the city. This was an issue in DA1 DA:O as well - due partly to competitive balancing, an partly to the sheer diversity of kinds of enemies you could fight, there's not much to really prove that a random mage is more of a threat than a warrior or a rogue. Sure, the mage has blood magic, but no one questions the warrior's right to swing around a hammer bigger than he is or a rogue's right to carry his own weight in poisons, grenades, and trick arrows. There's just so much violence committed by everyone on everyone else using all kinds of tools, after a while it starts to sound a little unreasonable to say that mages in particular are really threatening. For every crazy exceptional mage, like Quentin or Uldred, there are also crazy exceptional 'mundanes' like Meredith or Marjolaine.
** One assumes spells like Earthquake, Tempest, Blizard, and Inferno do more property damage than the ingame game engine will allow. Then you bring in things like virulent walking bomb...it's unpleasant. The main issue, however, is that if a warrior or a rogue goes on a rampage, they're completely responsible for their own actions and can be brought to justice accordingly. A mage can be possessed at any time given a slight slip in judgement or alertness, and a pride or desire abomination can do considerably more damage than a rogue or a warrior. It's best to be preemptive about that.
** True, one does not need to be a mage to be a dangerous lunatic. But the damage a single mundane person and a single mage can do is on entirely different scales. Let's compare Quentin to, say, Ser Alrik: while they're both monsters, Ser Alrik needs the support of his fellow templars Templars to be any kind of threat to Hawke, and ultimately he's just a minor villain that's quickly disposed of. Quentin on his own is able to command a small army of demons, operates without impunity for years and deals an immense blow to Hawke personally. Meredith poses an immense danger to Hawke and to Kirkwall, but that's only because of the lyrium idol, an immensely ancient and powerful artifact that was only acquired under a specific set of circumstances. Orsino is able to use the blood of a few dead mages to transform into an undead monster that's nearly as dangerous as Meredith, and he could have done this at any time.



** Except the Qunari aren't lying by their definition, they are telling the truth. They're just big believers of ExactWords. The Arishok is waiting for a rescue ship, he just isn't telling you that the ship won't come until he finds the book. Nothing about that is untrue, they are waiting for a ship and that ship will take them home, you just [[YouNeverAsked never asked]] if there was any conditions for the ship to arrive. And at one point during Act II he '''outright''' tells you why they're still around if you press him on the subject, so it's simply a matter of nobody asking the Qunari the right questions.

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** Except the Qunari aren't lying by their definition, they are telling the truth. They're just big believers of ExactWords. The Arishok is waiting for a rescue ship, he just isn't telling you that the ship won't come until he finds the book. Nothing about that is untrue, they are waiting for a ship and that ship will take them home, you just [[YouNeverAsked never asked]] if there was any conditions for the ship to arrive. And at one point during Act II 2 he '''outright''' tells you why they're still around if you press him on the subject, so it's simply a matter of nobody asking the Qunari the right questions.



** Because there's a rather big difference between "punishing someone for their crimes" and "handing someone over for a dose of torture followed by MindRape as punishment for theft." The punishment is massively disproportionate to the crime, whatever the result of the crime might have been. Especially since this isn't just some random person, this is a friend and teammate. Sure she lied to Hawke but she also risked her life on many, many occasions over three years for Hawke and just now returned to a situation fairly likely to get her killed after she got away just because she was worried about him/her. In such a situation handing her over to the Qunari ''is'' a betrayal. Punishing her might not be but that's tricky anyway, since stealing the Tome wasn't breaking any laws of Kirkwall; she stole a Qunari item from Orleasians. As for why the party objects, many of them really like her (Varric, Merrill, Fenris) or disapprove of the Qunari way of doing things in general (Anders, Aveline, Sebastian) so of course they're going to object.
** Theft? It was ''not'' just theft. Let's talk about what she did. She was a pirate who had a hand in stealing the Tome of Koslun from the Qunari, lied to Hawke for years about it and dodged the Qunari and questions about the "relic" until the ''very moment'' before she got it back. She knew the Arishok had near-godlike powers of knowing what was going on in the city, she knew he was growing ''very tired'' of being there and was on the edge of rampage. And when the Tome finally popped up, ''there were Qunari sitting in the entrance and inside the building itself where it was being held.'' There was no way in hell she wouldn't have realized the Arishok knew exactly where it was. And in spite of all that, ''she still took off with it,'' dooming Kirkwall to an assault that killed of innocent people and guards, and damn near killed Hawke and Aveline (remember that the Arishok tried to eliminate Hawke before anyone else). She had every inclination of what the Arishok would do, and ''[[MoralEventHorizon she still did it.]]'' She has literally ''hundreds of innocent lives'' on her head, and regardless of whether she and my Hawke were friends, [[KickTheSonOfABitch she needed to answer for those crimes.]] Now, she didn't break any ''Kirkwall'' laws, but if you break laws in Russia and harm Russian people, if and when you are extradited for it you answer to Russian laws. Which is basically what happens if you toss her to the Qunari - They drag her to Par Vollen and she answers to the Qun. Their punishment is extremely horrible, yes, but ''Hawke'' didn't know that, and doesn't know until Fenris spells it out for him/her during party banter ''in Act III. Which occurs three years later.'' And Fenris doesn't say what'll happen to Isabela if he's in the party while you're in front of the Arishok. And Isabela returning the Tome doesn't make up for the hundreds of lives on her head. So no, it's not a betrayal. She put her own life ahead of the lives of hundreds of innocent people, and as a result, hundreds of people died for it. And if you don't let the Qunari handle it, she becomes a ''Karma Houdini''. [[SincerityMode Hell no. She had to pay for that.]]
** It is just theft. It's theft with very serious consequences but the actual crime is theft. If you steal something from someone and they commit suicide over losing it that's tragic but you are not now guilty of theft and murder. Lying to Hawke is A Bad Thing but it's not an actual crime. As for extradition, the Qunari have no extradition treaty with any country in Thedas. They're effectively in an armed truce with all of them. Plus the theft was from Orleasians, not the Qunari. She never stole anything from the Qunari themselves so even if they did have such treaties it wouldn't apply. The real world paralel would be suggesting that stealing a mummy from the British Museam should get you extradited to Egypt. She also is hardly soley responsible for the resulting loss of life, that lets the Arishok off. Y'know, the guy who actually orders his men to kill those people. The guy who you let go free if you give him Isabela, making ''him'' the KarmaHoudini. In a choice between punishing a minor criminal who proked a war criminal and punishing the war criminal himself I know which one I'd pick. Hawke may not know the specifics of what the Qunari would do but he knows the Qunari; it is going to be horrible. Sure, Isabela behaved selfishly to save her own life but most human beings would. It's called survival instinct; much as we might like to think otherwise few of us would willing die to save others. If you're in the position to make the decision that means she's overcome that and ''is'' willing putting herself in a likely fatal position (on several levels) to save others. It doesn't redeem her right then and there but it means she's on the path to redemption and responded to that with "too late, go be tortured" is hardly moral. Also while Isabela is a selfish criminal she's hardly the only one in the group with innocent blood on her hands. Fenris killed the Fog Warriors who'd looked after him remember and Hawke is unlikely to get to the end of Act 2 without a few unlawful deaths in his past. It's a morally murky game set in a morally murky world, this kind of absolutist approach to crime and punishment doesn't really fit.
** Okay incoming wall of text, so I'm sectioning it off in numbers. Bear with me here. 1) Actually, the Qunari do have a treaty with the lands of Thedas. Sten and Alistair even discuss it in party banter in DA1. It's why they're not attacking them at the moment. Whether or not it includes extradition is not discussed, but that's not the point - she stole a priceless relic of the Qunari, knew they wanted it back, and instead of just *giving* it to them she led them on a goose chase that ended with the deaths of hundreds. Legally she may not be responsible (and that's arguable), but morally that's exactly what happened, and that's makes her culpable. 2) Regardless of who the theft was from, she ''knew'' the Qunari had to come find it. She knew it was a Qunari relic of massive importance. She acquired it in Orlais, but there was no question of who she stole it from. 3) I'd feel a lot better about her "survival instinct" if she wasn't knowingly dooming hundreds of innocent people to death and warfare because of it, which is precisely what she knew she was doing. She could've gotten the the tome, got it to Hawke, they went to the Arishok, and once Hawke was told that the Tome of Koslun AND Isabela would have to be taken, he could've fought the Arishok then. But, instead, she caused a war. Hence my problem. 4) The comparisons to Hawke and Fenris don't really apply; almost every death if not ''every'' death Hawke is responsible for was either in self-defense or defending someone else (and you can choose how that goes down), and pretty much all of those people are ''horrible'' (except maybe Thrask, but then you don't have to kill him). And Fenris was an escaped slave suffering from MoreThanMindControl and hadn't thrown off the slave mentality when he killed the Fog Warriors. Theirs is excusable, Isabela's is pure cowardice. 5) Why ''does'' that occur if you let the Arishok have Isabela? I was cool with killing him for what he did - he certainly earned it - but if you give him Isabela, Hawke lets him ''walk.'' And I ''don't understand that.'' I'd really like to know the rationale behind that one, because I don't get it.

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** Because there's a rather big difference between "punishing someone for their crimes" and "handing someone over for a dose of torture followed by MindRape as punishment for theft." The punishment is massively disproportionate to the crime, whatever the result of the crime might have been. Especially since this isn't just some random person, this is a friend and teammate. Sure she lied to Hawke but she also risked her life on many, many occasions over three years for Hawke and just now returned to a situation fairly likely to get her killed after she got away just because she was worried about him/her. In such a situation handing her over to the Qunari ''is'' a betrayal. Punishing her might not be but that's tricky anyway, since stealing the Tome wasn't breaking any laws of Kirkwall; she stole a Qunari item from Orleasians.Orlesians. As for why the party objects, many of them really like her (Varric, Merrill, Fenris) or disapprove of the Qunari way of doing things in general (Anders, Aveline, Sebastian) so of course they're going to object.
** Theft? It was ''not'' just theft. Let's talk about what she did. She was a pirate who had a hand in stealing the Tome of Koslun from the Qunari, lied to Hawke for years about it and dodged the Qunari and questions about the "relic" until the ''very moment'' before she got it back. She knew the Arishok had near-godlike powers of knowing what was going on in the city, she knew he was growing ''very tired'' of being there and was on the edge of rampage. And when the Tome finally popped up, ''there were Qunari sitting in the entrance and inside the building itself where it was being held.'' There was no way in hell she wouldn't have realized the Arishok knew exactly where it was. And in spite of all that, ''she still took off with it,'' dooming Kirkwall to an assault that killed of innocent people and guards, and damn near killed Hawke and Aveline (remember that the Arishok tried to eliminate Hawke before anyone else). She had every inclination of what the Arishok would do, and ''[[MoralEventHorizon she still did it.]]'' She has literally ''hundreds of innocent lives'' on her head, and regardless of whether she and my Hawke were friends, [[KickTheSonOfABitch she needed to answer for those crimes.]] Now, she didn't break any ''Kirkwall'' laws, but if you break laws in Russia and harm Russian people, if and when you are extradited for it you answer to Russian laws. Which This is basically what happens if you toss her to the Qunari - They drag her to Par Vollen and she answers to the Qun. Their punishment is extremely horrible, yes, but ''Hawke'' didn't know that, and doesn't know until Fenris spells it out for him/her during party banter ''in Act III. Which 3, which occurs three years later.'' And Fenris doesn't say what'll happen to Isabela if he's in the party while you're in front of the Arishok. And Isabela returning the Tome doesn't make up for the hundreds of lives on her head. So no, it's not a betrayal. She put her own life ahead of the lives of hundreds of innocent people, and as a result, hundreds of people died for it. And if you don't let the Qunari handle it, she becomes a ''Karma Houdini''. [[SincerityMode Hell no. She had to pay for that.]]
** It is just theft. It's theft with very serious consequences but the actual crime is theft. If you steal something from someone and they commit suicide over losing it that's tragic but you are not now guilty of theft and murder. Lying to Hawke is A Bad Thing but it's not an actual crime. As for extradition, the Qunari have no extradition treaty with any country in Thedas. They're effectively in an armed truce with all of them. Plus the theft was from Orleasians, Orlesians, not the Qunari. She never stole anything from the Qunari themselves so even if they did have such treaties it wouldn't apply. The real world paralel parallel would be suggesting that stealing a mummy from the British Museam Museum should get you extradited to Egypt. She also is hardly soley solely responsible for the resulting loss of life, that lets the Arishok off. Y'know, the guy who actually orders his men to kill those people. The guy who you let go free if you give him Isabela, making ''him'' the KarmaHoudini. In a choice between punishing a minor criminal who proked provoked a war criminal and punishing the war criminal himself I know which one I'd pick. Hawke may not know the specifics of what the Qunari would do but he knows the Qunari; it is going to be horrible. Sure, Isabela behaved selfishly to save her own life but most human beings would. It's called survival instinct; much as we might like to think otherwise few of us would willing die to save others. If you're in the position to make the decision that means she's overcome that and ''is'' willing putting herself in a likely fatal position (on several levels) to save others. It doesn't redeem her right then and there but it means she's on the path to redemption and responded to that with "too late, go be tortured" is hardly moral. Also while Isabela is a selfish criminal she's hardly the only one in the group with innocent blood on her hands. Fenris killed the Fog Warriors who'd looked after him remember and Hawke is unlikely to get to the end of Act 2 without a few unlawful deaths in his past. It's a morally murky game set in a morally murky world, this kind of absolutist approach to crime and punishment doesn't really fit.
** Okay incoming wall of text, so I'm sectioning it off in numbers. Bear with me here. 1) Actually, the Qunari do have a treaty with the lands of Thedas. Sten and Alistair even discuss it in party banter in DA1.DA:O. It's why they're not attacking them at the moment. Whether or not it includes extradition is not discussed, but that's not the point - she stole a priceless relic of the Qunari, knew they wanted it back, and instead of just *giving* it to them she led them on a goose chase that ended with the deaths of hundreds. Legally she may not be responsible (and that's arguable), but morally that's exactly what happened, and that's makes her culpable. 2) Regardless of who the theft was from, she ''knew'' the Qunari had to come find it. She knew it was a Qunari relic of massive importance. She acquired it in Orlais, but there was no question of who she stole it from. 3) I'd feel a lot better about her "survival instinct" if she wasn't knowingly dooming hundreds of innocent people to death and warfare because of it, which is precisely what she knew she was doing. She could've gotten the the tome, got it to Hawke, they went to the Arishok, and once Hawke was told that the Tome of Koslun AND Isabela would have to be taken, he could've fought the Arishok then. But, instead, she caused a war. Hence my problem. 4) The comparisons to Hawke and Fenris don't really apply; almost every death if not ''every'' death Hawke is responsible for was either in self-defense or defending someone else (and you can choose how that goes down), and pretty much all of those people are ''horrible'' (except maybe Thrask, but then you don't have to kill him). And Fenris was an escaped slave suffering from MoreThanMindControl and hadn't thrown off the slave mentality when he killed the Fog Warriors. Theirs is excusable, Isabela's is pure cowardice. 5) Why ''does'' that occur if you let the Arishok have Isabela? I was cool with killing him for what he did - he certainly earned it - but if you give him Isabela, Hawke lets him ''walk.'' And I ''don't understand that.'' I'd really like to know the rationale behind that one, because I don't get it.



[[folder: Why are Cullen, Bodhan,etc... in Kirkwall ?]]
* So, I know the meta reason was to give some fanservice but is it ever explained in the game why are Bodhan and Cullen in Kirkwall ?
** For Merril's clan it could make sense, since Dalish tend to move a lot but even then they stay around Kirkwall for seven years! And that's not counting the fact that, if you played a dalish and took a certain option at the end of Origins, the dalish could very well have their own land now.

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[[folder: Why are Cullen, Bodhan,etc... in Kirkwall ?]]
Kirkwall?]]
* So, I know the meta reason was to give some fanservice fanservice, but is it ever explained in the game why are Bodhan and Cullen in Kirkwall ?
Kirkwall?
** For Merril's Merrill's clan it could make sense, since Dalish tend to move a lot but even then they stay around Kirkwall for seven years! And that's not counting the fact that, if you played a dalish and took a certain option at the end of Origins, the dalish could very well have their own land now.



** You mean she don't want to give up on someone she cast out of/quit the clan because of her blood magic ? That same someone who made a deal with a demon to repair a killer mirror ? God, is anyone except Aveline, Varric, and the Hawkes sane in Kirkwall?

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** You mean she don't want to give up on someone she cast out of/quit the clan because of her blood magic ? magic? That same someone who made a deal with a demon to repair a killer mirror ? mirror? God, is anyone except sane in Kirkwall besides Aveline, Varric, and the Hawkes sane in Kirkwall?Hawkes?



** Yeah. [[SarcasmMode Go and hide in the same town as the army of giants who are after you, that's really a smart move.]] As for Anders it make sense but not if he had a maximum friendship with the Warden (but I won't go into [=DA2=] screw ups, they had already been discussed). But what about Cullen ?
** Isabela was shipwrecked near Kirkwall just like the Qunari. She could leave, sure, but she also knows that the book in somewhere in or around Kirkwall and that book is the only way to get Castetion off her back. As for Anders having max friendship with the Warden the Warden is no longer in command at Amarathine. As the epilogue to Awakening states he/she left shortly after the defeat of the Mother. The reason is different depending on your Warden but he/she always leaves. So Anders clearly didn't get on with his/her replacement nearly as well. Cullen is easy; as he explains if you ask him he was transfered shortly after the end of Origins. Which makes sense; You're Knight-Commander Gregoir, you like an amicable balance between mages and Templars. But you've got Cullen hanging around, still massively distrustful following the Uldred thing. Why not send him to Meredith, a Knight-Commander he knows will appreciate that attitude, and spare you the issue? I'll grant that it's rather coincidental at best that Hawke and the Warden happen to meet so many of the same people but hey, it's ficton. And the individual reasons for their presences there do make sense.
** Yes, because it's way better risking being caught by an army from wich you have stolen their original version of the Koran than hiding from a crime lord. As for Cullen, you mean that, instead of trying to calm him, Gregoir send Cullen to a city where he'll become more crazy? Is this a world of idiots or just some people ?
** It's not Gregoir's job to treat the mental health of his subordinates, just to keep the peace of his Circle. And it's pretty clear that Isabela is more worried that Castetion will find her than the Qunari and, given that he does find her and they don't, she was clearly right. Numbers don't make you a better tracker.
** Since Cullen is one of Gregoir subbordinates, it's mental health, particulary if it make him more abusive towards mages is his responsability as it prevent him from doing his job properly. As for Isabela, the better question would be how, The Arishok having near godlike power of knowing what happend in the city, the Qunari didn't catch her beofre. But yes, the truth is, Castillon find her, the Qunari don't.
** Well, it's not like Cullen is frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die. He's just a little too hardline to fit in with the Fereldan Circle anymore. By Kirkwall standards he's actualy vaguely moderate, as noted by the fact that he apparantly refuses to stay with the Templars when the war starts (since he's with the PC in ''Inquistion''). As for why the Arishok didn't find our 'Bela I'd say 1: She's actively hiding from him whereas other things he finds out about aren't, 2: He's got good scouts but no contact at all with Kirkwall's underground nor any real way to make such contacts, whereas Castillon has plenty of underworld contacts and 3: He actualy misses rather a lot, everything Patrice does for a start.
** Except that Cullen ''was'' frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die. First when you meet him in the second-to-last floor of the tower of Magi and when you bring Irving back. When Gregoir say that he's glad to see the First Enchanter back Cullen say something like "but he's a blood mage! Every mage is or will be, we must KillThemAll." Wich ''is'' a fitting attitude for endgame!Meredith but not before. He ''was'' tortured horribly but that meant he should be treated as a victim and healed, not just promoted somewhere else.
** That was what Cullen was like less than half an hour after being tortured. That's not what one would call a fair appraisal of his state later. It makes more sense to judge him by his behaviour in 2, in which he's hardline but not insanely so. Which makes him a good fit for the Kirkwall Circle but not the Fereldan Circle. Plus remember this is a medieval society, not a modern one, they don't have our sensitivity to mental trauma. As a side point another, rather critical point occurred with regards to Isabela; she stole the book from the Orleasians and only encountered the Qunari ship to ship. Chances are they don't even know what she looks like or even her name.
** But an '''Origins' epilogue says "The young templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered.". I think ''that'' count as frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die.

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** Yeah. [[SarcasmMode Go and hide in the same town as the army of giants who are after you, that's really a smart move.]] As for Anders it make sense but not if he had a maximum friendship with the Warden (but I won't go into [=DA2=] IIDAII screw ups, they had they've already been discussed). But what about Cullen ?
Cullen?
** Isabela was shipwrecked near Kirkwall just like the Qunari. She could leave, sure, but she also knows that the book in somewhere in or around Kirkwall and that book is the only way to get Castetion off her back. As for Anders having max friendship with the Warden the Warden is no longer in command at Amarathine. As the epilogue to Awakening states he/she left shortly after the defeat of the Mother. The reason is different depending on your Warden but he/she always leaves. So Anders clearly didn't get on with his/her replacement nearly as well. Cullen is easy; as he explains if you ask him he was transfered transferred shortly after the end of Origins. Which ''Origins''. This makes sense; You're you're Knight-Commander Gregoir, Greagoir, you like an amicable balance between mages and Templars. But you've got Cullen hanging around, still massively distrustful following the Uldred thing. Why not send him to Meredith, a Knight-Commander he knows will appreciate that attitude, and spare you the issue? I'll grant that it's rather coincidental at best that Hawke and the Warden happen to meet so many of the same people but hey, it's ficton.fiction. And the individual reasons for their presences there do make sense.
** Yes, because it's way better risking being caught by an army from wich which you have stolen their original version of the Koran than hiding from a crime lord. As for Cullen, you mean that, instead of trying to calm him, Gregoir Greagoir send Cullen to a city where he'll become more crazy? Is this a world of idiots or just some people ?
people?
** It's not Gregoir's Greagoir's job to treat the mental health of his subordinates, just to keep the peace of his Circle. And it's pretty clear that Isabela is more worried that Castetion Castillon will find her than the Qunari and, given that he does find her and they don't, she was clearly right. Numbers don't make you a better tracker.
** Since Cullen is one of Gregoir subbordinates, Greagoir's subordinates, it's mental health, particulary particularly if it make him more abusive towards mages is his responsability responsibility as it prevent him from doing his job properly. As for Isabela, the better question would be how, The Arishok having near godlike power of knowing what happend happened in the city, the Qunari didn't catch her beofre.before. But yes, the truth is, Castillon find her, the Qunari don't.
** Well, it's not like Cullen is frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die. He's just a little too hardline to fit in with the Fereldan Circle anymore. By Kirkwall standards he's actualy vaguely moderate, as noted by the fact that he apparantly apparently refuses to stay with the Templars when the war starts (since he's with the PC in ''Inquistion''). ''Inquisition''). As for why the Arishok didn't find our 'Bela I'd say 1: She's actively hiding from him whereas other things he finds out about aren't, 2: He's got good scouts but no contact at all with Kirkwall's underground nor any real way to make such contacts, whereas Castillon has plenty of underworld contacts and 3: He actualy actually misses rather a lot, everything Patrice does for a start.
** Except that Cullen ''was'' frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die. First when you meet him in the second-to-last floor of the tower of Magi and when you bring Irving back. When Gregoir Greagoir say that he's glad to see the First Enchanter back back, Cullen say something like "but he's a blood mage! Every mage is or will be, we must KillThemAll." Wich Which ''is'' a fitting attitude for endgame!Meredith but not before. He ''was'' tortured horribly but that meant he should be treated as a victim and healed, not just promoted somewhere else.
** That was what Cullen was like less than half an hour after being tortured. That's not what one would call a fair appraisal of his state later. It makes more sense to judge him by his behaviour in 2, in which he's hardline but not insanely so. Which makes him a good fit for the Kirkwall Circle but not the Fereldan Circle. Plus remember this is a medieval society, not a modern one, they don't have our sensitivity to mental trauma. As a side point another, rather critical point occurred with regards to Isabela; she stole the book from the Orleasians Orlesians and only encountered the Qunari ship to ship. Chances are they don't even know what she looks like or even her name.
** But an '''Origins' epilogue says "The young templar Templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered.". I think ''that'' count as frothing at the mouth and screaming about how all mages must die.



** The sad but invitable result of an unexpected sequel. If they knew they were gonna make 2 I suspect they wouldn't have put in the epilogues.
** I would say it's rather the desire to put the maximum of fan-favorites even if it contradict their fate and that, had Cullen and Isabela not been [[EnsembleDarkhorse so popular]], they would have sticked to their epilogue. As for Bodhan and Flemeth it's, in my opinion, a blatant try to bring Hawke to the level of the Warden, but it's not the place to talk about it.

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** The sad but invitable inevitable result of an unexpected sequel. If they knew they were gonna make 2 I suspect they wouldn't have put in the epilogues.
** I would say it's rather the desire to put the maximum of fan-favorites even if it contradict their fate and that, had Cullen and Isabela not been [[EnsembleDarkhorse so popular]], they would have sticked stuck to their epilogue. As for Bodhan and Flemeth it's, in my opinion, a blatant try to bring Hawke to the level of the Warden, but it's this is not the place to talk about it.



** Also Castillion knows her name, what she looks like and the sort of thing she's likely to be doing with her days, all things the Qunari don't have a clue of. They just know someone stole the Tome before the Orleasians could sell it to them. Also while he and his goons are not that impressive that's because he was coming to pick up an imprisoned, tied up Isabela, not a freed Isabela with friends. If he'd known where she was he'd likely have sent a large team of assassins, loaded for bear, to kill her while she was alone and, hopefully, sleeping, while not showing up in person at all. And she'd never know when it was coming.

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** Also Castillion knows her name, what she looks like and the sort of thing she's likely to be doing with her days, all things the Qunari don't have a clue of. They just know someone stole the Tome before the Orleasians Orlesians could sell it to them. Also while he and his goons are not that impressive that's because he was coming to pick up an imprisoned, tied up Isabela, not a freed Isabela with friends. If he'd known where she was he'd likely have sent a large team of assassins, loaded for bear, to kill her while she was alone and, hopefully, sleeping, while not showing up in person at all. And she'd never know when it was coming.






** Given the situation, Hawke's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. Saemus is the son of the Viscount. If he converted, Dumar would take a major political blow (not even addressing the personal stake of losing his son to a creepy religion that would even strip him of his name) at a time when the city is already in the grip of anti-Qunari tension. The Arishok may not care about Saemus's lineage, but the extremists who've already taken to violent anti-Qunari terrorism certainly would. They'd likely see it as a betrayal from the Viscount and escalate their campaign, which they did by murdering Saemus at the first opportunity. There may or may not have been an option to accept Saemus' decision after speaking with him, but it became a moot point as Petrice got to him first.

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** Given the situation, Hawke's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. Saemus is the son of the Viscount. If he converted, Dumar would take a major political blow (not even addressing the personal stake of losing his son to a creepy religion that would even strip him of his name) at a time when the city is already in the grip of anti-Qunari tension. The Arishok may not care about Saemus's lineage, but the extremists who've already taken to violent anti-Qunari terrorism certainly would. They'd likely see it as a betrayal from the Viscount and escalate their campaign, which they did by murdering Saemus at the first opportunity. There may or may not have been an option to accept Saemus' Saemus's decision after speaking with him, but it became a moot point as Petrice got to him first.






* So, let's assume the prologue in the ruined Lothering happend two weeks after the start of the Blight. Let's say one month later the Hawkes are in Kirkwall. Let's be generous and say that when Varric said "a year later" he meant something like "a year and three months". It means that Act 1 happend maybe four or five month after the end of Origins, okay ? It means Awakening DIDN'T HAPPEND YET! So really, what is Anders doing in Kirkwall ? Saying he's a Grey Warden to boot (when i imported a save where i didn't recruit him just to see what would change). Did he went back in time to ensure the "revolution" would happend ?
** Let's not assume any such thing. The prologue demonstrably does ''not'' happen two weeks after the start of the Blight, it happens after Lothering is destroyed. And that doesn't happen until after the Warden has passed through Lothering, travelled to Redcliffe/Kinloch Hold/the Brecilian Forest/Orzammar and completed at least one whole main questline. That is, bare minimum, a month, given the Warden's party has no transport but their own two feet and Ostagar is a long way from even the closest of those. Then you've got travel time to Kirkwall and, like you say, Varric is likely rounding the timescales for the sake of narrative. Also Awakening is very shortly after Origins and the whole of Awakening was maybe a month or two long (remember Amarathine is a tiny corner of Fereldan). The timing is little tight, sure, but given that Hawke didn't even leave Lothering until the Warden was a third of the way through the Blight I think we're good. Side note; the inverted commas on revolution are rather puzzling; it definitely is a revolution.
** Fine, let's add a month to my calculations, it still makes Act 1 happend a month before/during Awakening. And, even if you add another month to the mix, it's just a month after the start of Awakening wich is too soon to say that the Warden isn't here anymore and that Anders left. It's not "tight", it's impossible.
** I think you're underestimating travel time. Hawke and co have to get Gwaren from Lothering, which is half the breath of Ferelden, wait for a ship to be available in a country at war, then sail from there to Kirkwall, which is over the entire length of Fereldan plus the Waking Sea. All Anders has to do is cross the Sea. Plus we don't have an exact timescale on Origins, just "less than a year." And Awakening happened a month or less after the Battle of Denerim and the Warden left very quickly afterwards.
** Doesn't Awakening happend six months after the end of Origins ?
** I don't recall specific timeline ever being given but since the Mother predated the Blight I rather think if it had been that long then Amaranthine would have been a wasteland before the Warden got there.

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* So, let's assume the prologue in the ruined Lothering happend happened two weeks after the start of the Blight. Let's say one month later the Hawkes are in Kirkwall. Let's be generous and say that when Varric said "a year later" he meant something like "a year and three months". It means that Act 1 happend happened maybe four or five month after the end of Origins, okay ? ''Origins'', okay? It means Awakening ''Awakening'' DIDN'T HAPPEND HAPPEN YET! So really, what is Anders doing in Kirkwall ? Kirkwall? Saying he's a Grey Warden to boot (when i imported a save where i didn't recruit him just to see what would change). Did he went go back in time to ensure the "revolution" would happend ?
happen?
** Let's not assume any such thing. The prologue demonstrably does ''not'' happen two weeks after the start of the Blight, it happens after Lothering is destroyed. And that doesn't happen until after the Warden has passed through Lothering, travelled traveled to Redcliffe/Kinloch Hold/the Brecilian Forest/Orzammar and completed at least one whole main questline. That is, bare minimum, a month, given the Warden's party has no transport but their own two feet and Ostagar is a long way from even the closest of those. Then you've got travel time to Kirkwall and, like you say, Varric is likely rounding the timescales for the sake of narrative. Also Awakening is very shortly after Origins and the whole of Awakening was maybe a month or two long (remember Amarathine is a tiny corner of Fereldan). Ferelden). The timing is little tight, sure, but given that Hawke didn't even leave Lothering until the Warden was a third of the way through the Blight Blight, I think we're good. Side note; the inverted commas on revolution are rather puzzling; it definitely is a revolution.
** Fine, let's add a month to my calculations, it still makes Act 1 happend happen a month before/during Awakening. ''Awakening''. And, even if you add another month to the mix, it's just a month after the start of Awakening wich ''Awakening'' which is too soon to say that the Warden isn't here anymore and that Anders left. It's not "tight", it's impossible.
** I think you're underestimating travel time. Hawke and co have to get Gwaren from Lothering, which is half the breath of Ferelden, wait for a ship to be available in a country at war, then sail from there to Kirkwall, which is over the entire length of Fereldan plus the Waking Sea. All Anders has to do is cross the Sea. Plus we don't have an exact timescale on Origins, ''Origins'', just "less than a year." And Awakening ''Awakening'' happened a month or less after the Battle of Denerim and the Warden left very quickly afterwards.
** Doesn't Awakening happend ''Awakening happen six months after the end of Origins ?
''Origins''?
** I don't recall specific timeline ever being given given, but since the Mother predated the Blight Blight, I rather think if it had been that long then Amaranthine would have been a wasteland before the Warden got there.



** Yes, ''Awakening'' is six months after the end of ''Origins''. This is confirmed somewhere within the game itself, although I forget exactly where; in my playthrough, Alistair is king and married to the HOF, and it's stated that they had to cut their honeymoon short so she could head for Amaranthine.



* How are they [[DemonicSpiders so powerful]] ? Since they have their mouths sewed and are imprisoned in cages since the moment they show magic, how are they able to learn to use it ? And to do things this powerful even ? And finally, why are they in Kirkwall and not back in Seheron ?

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* How are they [[DemonicSpiders so powerful]] ? powerful]]? Since they have their mouths sewed and are imprisoned in cages since the moment they show magic, how are they able to learn to use it ? it? And to do things this powerful even ? even? And finally, why are they in Kirkwall and not back in Seheron ?Seheron?



* What happend if you import a save in wich you didn't recruit Anders? Or gave him to the Templar ?

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* What happend happened if you import a save in wich which you didn't recruit Anders? Or gave him to the Templar ?Templars?



** The Dalish are shown to have very vague and incorrect information about the history of their race- it's likely that Marethari believed what she was saying. It's also possible there was some grain of truth to it- Merrill had already made a deal with the demon, and in Inquisition it's stated that the Veil is extremely thin in the realm where the Eluvians lead. At the end of the day, the truth comes second to what Marethari believes to be the truth- and the Dalish generally aren't good at admitting they may be wrong.

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** The Dalish are shown to have very vague and incorrect information about the history of their race- race - it's likely that Marethari believed what she was saying. It's also possible there was some grain of truth to it- Merrill had already made a deal with the demon, and in Inquisition ''Inquisition'' it's stated that the Veil is extremely thin in the realm where the Eluvians lead. At the end of the day, the truth comes second to what Marethari believes to be the truth- and the Dalish generally aren't good at admitting they may be wrong.
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